General Premier League Thread 2020-21 - Mod Notes in 1st post. [Updated 17/12/20]

8-10

RasTa wrote: »

You know how much I hate Liverpool so giving them any praise isn't allowed.

Yeah it just seems strange though because you're trying to make a point that it's embarrassing because they're the best but aren't prepared to admit that.

If Liverpool aren't actually the best, and that won't be decided for 6 months, then the result can't really be classed as being that embarrassing as everyone has dropped points to a bottom half team so far and the table will decide things at the end

thebaz

pjohnson wrote: »

Until football changes to start awarding wins to the team with most possesion there is no anti-football.

Its still the results that matter not the pretty factor.

Anti-Football , hoofball - call it what you want - its horrible to watch , sorry endure

fyfe79

RasTa wrote: »

It's not hard. I dunno why you keep on mentioning the fact your top in December as it has no relevance, like the defending champions part.

League tables are generally compiled in order to determine the standings, from best (top) to worst (bottom). Liverpool have topped the most recent, finished, one which was the 19/20 season. And are currently topping the current, changeable, one which is the 20/21 season. Both of those things together are pretty good indicators.

fyfe79

thebaz wrote: »

Anti-Football , hoofball - call it what you want - its horrible to watch , sorry endure

It is, but I've no problem with Sam's 6-4-0 formation. It got him a point today - any other approach would've got them nothing. In fact, I think having these types of managers/teams act as a good foil to the more exciting managers/teams... if every team played the same way it would get kind of stale.

Collie D

fyfe79 wrote: »

It is, but I've no problem with Sam's 6-4-0 formation. It got him a point today - any other approach would've got them nothing. In fact, I think having these types of managers/teams act as a good foil to the more exciting managers/teams... if every team played the same way it would get kind of stale.

Indeed. Not every team can play possession football and trying to would see a lot of them slaughtered. It’s a results game. Nothing wrong with adapting tactics to win or to survive.

Calling it anti football is wrong - it’s a perfectly valid if unattractive form of the game.

thebaz

Collie D wrote: »

Calling it anti football is wrong - it’s a perfectly valid if unattractive form of the game.

well it is, if all kids were taught to play the Big Sam style , football would be horrible - he sets his teamsup as difficult to beat (he does that) , but despite his own Big ego has no idea how to attack or play decent possesion football - we endured him at Everton and it was just wretched.

theoneeyedman

fyfe79 wrote: »

It is, but I've no problem with Sam's 6-4-0 formation. It got him a point today - any other approach would've got them nothing. In fact, I think having these types of managers/teams act as a good foil to the more exciting managers/teams... if every team played the same way it would get kind of stale.

There are teams that have little choice but to play like that, given the resources available, WBA, Burnley for example.

It's not nice on the eye, certainly not entertainment, but as someone said before (Dunphy?) ' if you want entertainment, go to the pictures '!

I've less sympathy for well resourced teams, with lots of money and that hire the likes of Jose and Sam and still play like that... I'm looking at you Spurs!

RasTa

8-10 wrote: »

Yeah it just seems strange though because you're trying to make a point that it's embarrassing because they're the best but aren't prepared to admit that.

If Liverpool aren't actually the best, and that won't be decided for 6 months, then the result can't really be classed as being that embarrassing as everyone has dropped points to a bottom half team so far and the table will decide things at the end

I could have said the defending ...... dropping points at home to newly promoted and 2nd from bottom WBA is embarrassing but I can't use the C word to describe Liverpool as I mentioned above.

Girly Gal

thebaz wrote: »

well it is, if all kids were taught to play the Big Sam style , football would be horrible - he sets his teamsup as difficult to beat (he does that) , but despite his own Big ego has no idea how to attack or play decent possesion football - we endured him at Everton and it was just wretched.

Different styles of football make for interesting matches, if all teams play the same way it gets boring very fast. WBA are entitled to play whatever way they want, it's up to other teams to break them down.

~Rebel~

thebaz wrote: »

well it is, if all kids were taught to play the Big Sam style , football would be horrible - he sets his teamsup as difficult to beat (he does that) , but despite his own Big ego has no idea how to attack or play decent possesion football - we endured him at Everton and it was just wretched.

I think he can, he just consistency chooses not to as time has gone on.. I LOVED his Bolton team around 2003 and 2004, great mix of grit and style.

Collie D

Collie D wrote: »

Indeed. Not every team can play possession football and trying to would see a lot of them slaughtered. It’s a results game. Nothing wrong with adapting tactics to win or to survive.

Calling it anti football is wrong - it’s a perfectly valid if unattractive form of the game.

But it's not an either/or.

Allardyce's ugly football might still see WBA relegated.

And Brighton, Fulham and others that are a little easier on the eye might stay up.

Fitz*

Allardyce was one of the early adaptors of data science, analysis and using Opta in his teams. I think he might have been one of the early adaptors of the GPS tracking too to measure players performance.

His style is horrible on the eye, especially as an opposition team, but it is effective for a bottom half club or club battling relegation. Only has a short shelf life though as eventually his teams grow tired of his methods as they become stale.

Good effective coach, for a certain level of team, and gets a bit of a bad rep because of the style of football but it works and that's all he cares about. Bolton were a good team to be fair!

Collie D

[Deleted User] wrote: »

But it's not an either/or.

Allardyce's ugly football might still see WBA relegated.

And Brighton, Fulham and others that are a little easier on the eye might stay up.

They may well go down. I can’t argue with that to be honest.

But I’m not saying it’s an either/or situation. My point is that whether it looks good or not it’s still a brand of football. It’s the term anti-football I disagree with.

pjohnson

Its almost as if some think the only correct way is for limited teams to try and match the more skilled teams and take their beating and enjoy being utterly disgraced :pac:


Nothing wrong with actually defending and having a structure even if some find it taboo.

pjohnson

~Rebel~ wrote: »

I think he can, he just consistency chooses not to as time has gone on.. I LOVED his Bolton team around 2003 and 2004, great mix of grit and style.

Djorkaeff, Hierro, Campo, Okocha etc it was actually insane the team he had cobbled together pretty cheaply iirc.

giveitholly

pjohnson wrote: »

Djorkaeff, Hierro, Campo, Okocha etc it was actually insane the team he had cobbled together pretty cheaply iirc.

Did that team challenge for a champions league spot or am I thinking of someone else?

pjohnson

giveitholly wrote: »

Did that team challenge for a champions league spot or am I thinking of someone else?

They were certainly up there at the start but think it tailed off a bit at the end and they got UEFA instead.

cj maxx

1-1 wolves

yourdeadwright

Great weekend for City

jayo26

Wooo wolves

Fitz*

Only the real football enthusiasts remember Big Sam's Limerick FC team

Mr.Crinklewood

Really poor from Kane.

rob316

The only thing more pathetic than that dive was Tyler trying to defend it.

pjohnson

Fitz* wrote: »

Only the real football enthusiasts remember Big Sam's Limerick FC team

Did it have Kevin Nolan?

~Rebel~

pjohnson wrote: »

Djorkaeff, Hierro, Campo, Okocha etc it was actually insane the team he had cobbled together pretty cheaply iirc.

Unreal alright, Stelios Giannakopolous as well, who was brilliant.

That team playing with a more progressive style is the most successful spell Sam has had, so it’s a bit weird that he’s become so entrenched in the defensive game that gets you safety but nothing more.

Think the Newcastle experience broke him to an extent!

Fitz*

Another game where the strategy of Mourinho is going to be questioned.

After not really targeting or attacking a 19 year old making his PL debut at CB at Liverpool when the game was 1-1, today Spurs decided to sit back after a 1st min goal and not attack. They had more shots on target in the 1st minute than the other 89 following minutes combines, and no shot at all after the 59th minute.

Sitting back has now cost Spurs against Palace, Liverpool & Wolves in recent games.

yourdeadwright

Tyler and Smith defense of Kanes dive was absolutely gold
He had no other choice Smith said, He did he could have chose to stay standing
Tyler said its footballs fault for not giving penalties to honest players what he dived noting to do with not getting penalties as no one touched him

citytillidie

Match week 15 highlights
Leicester V Man Utd

Villa V Palace

Fulham V Southampton

Arsenal V Chelsea

Man City V Newcastle

Sheff Utd V Everton

Leeds V Burnley

West Ham V Brighton

Liverpool V WBA

Wolves V Spurs

citytillidie

32 Liverpool
31
30
29 Everton
28 Leicester
27 Man Utd
26 Spurs Man City
25 Villa Chelsea Southampton
24
23
22 West Ham
21 Wolves
20 Leeds
19
18 Newcastle Palace
17 Arsenal
16
15
14
13 Brighton Burnley
12
11 Fulham
10
9
8 WBA
7
6
5
4
3
2 Sheff Utd


After week 15 only Liverpool and Villa can hit 100 points or more if they win their remaining games

thebaz

pjohnson wrote: »

Nothing wrong with actually defending and having a structure even if some find it taboo.

good Defending and structure are all part of any football team - but getting 9 men behind the ball (EVERY game) to see out a 0 0 is not what football is to me , hence the term anti-football

thebaz

thebaz wrote: »

good Defending and structure are all part of any football team - but getting 9 men behind the ball (EVERY game) to see out a 0 0 is not what football is to me , hence the term anti-football

Here's a good take on it all (taken from event on the Leeds thread), a Swansea fan celebrating all that was good about a Leeds team that had just conceded 6 to Man Utd...but tried to play right up to the end. And his embarrassment at Swansea's preference for the "keep them goalless, try and nick 1" approach in the Premier League. The whole anything justifies the 3 points is really the stuff of owners, fans should want to see their team play....

=======

This is how this started — a tweet that I posted on Sunday evening, shortly after the final whistle blew at Old Trafford, where Manchester United put six past their bitter rivals from across the Pennines.

https://twitter.com/stujames75/status/1340730373236527104

The second sentence provided some personal context — a season spent taking my son to watch his team playing survival football in the Premier League. Swansea City’s goal tally in top-flight home games up until the end of December 2017 read: 0, 0, 1, 2, 1, 0, 0, 1, 0, 1.

We went to Wembley during that time to watch Swansea play Tottenham Hotspur in the league. It finished goalless and we stood to clap the team off, along with 3,000 others in the away end. As we spilled out of the stadium that Saturday night, it crossed my mind that we had just been celebrating our team picking up a point despite the fact they didn’t register a single shot on target in 90 minutes and barely got in their opponents’ half (Spurs had 75 per cent possession).

That’s not really what I signed up for when I started traipsing all around the country with a six-year-old.

For some fans, there is nothing wrong with that: it’s results over style every time, all about the league position and a stay-up-at-all costs mentality, even if that means starting off every season in the Premier League with the sole objective of getting to 40 points by whatever means possible. Fair enough if that’s your thing – and I mean that sincerely. But it’s not why I go to football. And never will be.

I want to see my team win, like every other fan, and play at the highest level. But how they go about trying to do that also matters to me. So, while the last thing I wanted was for Swansea to be relegated in 2018, the truth is that the first season back in the Championship under Graham Potter, when the team finished 10th, was far more enjoyable than circling the plughole in the Premier League for two years, grinding out results, willing the clock to go faster on the scoreboard at Wembley, and holding up a white flag every now and again.

All of which brings me to Leeds, whose last two games have produced 78 attempts on goal in total (42 for them) and included being hit for six at Old Trafford, prompting words like “pragmatism” to be bandied about and all sorts of questions asked, including “Should Bielsa change his philosophy?” Bielsa might need to tweak his tactics to improve the Premier League’s leakiest defence, but why would a man who has been coaching for 28 years and enjoyed such a rich and distinguished career, including success at his current club, change his philosophy? Probably because we love a knee-jerk reaction to a result. “When you lose, everyone questions the style of play. When you win, you are praised for it,” Bielsa said after the Manchester United result.

There will be a few hidings along the way with Bielsa’s approach – but good luck finding a Leeds fan who says that the bad outweighs the good under his management. Leeds beat Newcastle United 5-2 last Wednesday and had 17 attempts on goal at Old Trafford four days later. Trailing 6-2, they were pushing for a third goal in second-half stoppage time, even if that left them open to conceding a seventh.

Is there nothing in between being expansive and pragmatic? Of course there is. But maybe compromising would mean that Leeds are nothing like as free-scoring on other occasions. Would they still win 3-0 at Aston Villa, put four past Fulham and score those five against Newcastle?

But this was against Manchester United, I hear you say. I can’t remember too many criticising Bielsa when Leeds took Liverpool on at Anfield on the opening day and lost 4-3.

“This team… I don’t know what they are,” said Gary Neville, the Sky Sports summariser, as Leeds passed the ball around early in the second half on Sunday. “They just basically think that they can take on every single other opponent one for one. It’s a training session that we used to do as kids, for fitness mainly, but never as a style. It’s brilliant. It’s brilliant to watch.

“They’re all brave on the ball, they all take the ball, they pass to each other even when they’re marked. They all make angles, they never shirk responsibility. Every single one of them. That’s why I like them. They’re a courageous team.”

A few seconds later, Rodrigo crossed the ball from the right and Raphinha, ghosting in at the far post, forced David de Gea into a superb point-blank save that stopped Leeds getting it back to 4-2. Neville just started laughing. Later in the evening, when Match Of The Day showed the highlights, the BBC’s commentator Guy Mowbray was also chuckling. “It could easily be 10-8,” he said in the closing stages, and before Jack Harrison missed a sitter. He was right, too.

Leeds have scored 24 league goals this season, which is double Arsenal’s tally and three times as many as Burnley’s. Yes, they’re like a sieve at the other end, but this is a club four months into their first season back in the Premier League for 16 years.

Look through the 14 players who featured for them at Old Trafford and Patrick Bamford was their most experienced in the Premier League. Bamford, for the record, had started four Premier League games before this season. After Bamford, it’s Liam Cooper, whose last game at this level prior to the beginning of the season was for Hull City a decade ago.

It’s a wild ride under Bielsa and getting thumped 6-2 by the club you love to hate isn’t any supporter’s idea of a good day, but strap me in and I’ll happily buy a ticket to watch him manage my team every week. And that — buying a ticket — is something that people (pundits and a few others working in the media as well as armchair supporters) overlook at times.

The real fans — not the Twitter keyboard warriors — are paying for the pleasure to go to watch in a normal world (or paying for the pleasure to stream in my case now). For them, or for us, the match day is often an escape from the banality, or the stress, of everyday life. We wouldn’t mind being entertained now and again.

Indeed, when people wonder why some Newcastle supporters aren’t happy when their team is closer in points to the Champions League places than the relegation zone or, as was the case a couple of years ago, say that West Brom fans “should be careful what they wish for” when they got frustrated with the football under Tony Pulis, they’re missing the point.

We don’t think like pundits, we don’t think like owners and we don’t think like managers. We think like supporters.

For many of us (not everyone, of course) it’s not all about the next TV deal or trying to finish 14th in the Premier League. It’s about getting some satisfaction from watching our team for 90 minutes.

In fact, if you asked supporters of Newcastle and West Brom about their most enjoyable seasons over the last five years, my guess is that a number would probably say the one when they won promotion from the Championship. None of which is to say that they would want to go back there now.

To be clear, there’s not a right or a wrong way to play, but what I will say — and I imagine that there are fans at Premier League clubs who will relate to this — is when it’s all about the result and no importance is given to the process, you’d better keep picking up points because it’s a hard sell to supporters when you’re losing and serving up bland football.

For now, I’ll look forward to watching Leeds whenever they’re on TV, for all the reasons Neville highlighted during the game.

Some will call Bielsa’s team fearless. Some will call them naive. I’ll call it entertainment and wonder how much more fun watching Swansea would have been had Bielsa signed on the dotted line when club officials went to meet him in Argentina a few years ago

thebaz

Too big to quote above - but I love Bielsa approach to the game , in fact my memories of Swansea are very positive too , whereas my memory of Big Sam at everton are being bored to not watching , we still have one of his 20 million duds on the bench whos scored abot 3 goals in 3 season - give me Bielsa or Nuno anyday , thats whats watching professional football is to me and most fans.

davemckenna25

citytillidie wrote: »

32 Liverpool
31
30
29 Everton
28 Leicester
27 Man Utd
26 Spurs Man City
25 Villa Chelsea Southampton
24
23
22 West Ham
21 Wolves
20 Leeds
19
18 Newcastle Palace
17 Arsenal
16
15
14
13 Brighton Burnley
12
11 Fulham
10
9
8 WBA
7
6
5
4
3
2 Sheff Utd


After week 15 only Liverpool and Villa can hit 100 points or more if they win their remaining games

I actually do enjoy this table as it gives a good view of things but would it be better and a more accurate representation if it somehow showed games in hand for teams.... maybe an * for 1 and ** for 2 after their name.
Villa could be 2nd if they won their games in hand but that isn't noticeable from the table.

rob316

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Tyler and Smith defense of Kanes dive was absolutely gold
He had no other choice Smith said, He did he could have chose to stay standing
Tyler said its footballs fault for not giving penalties to honest players what he dived noting to do with not getting penalties as no one touched him

Fernandes, Salah, Mane would be told they are ruining the game but kane is been cute or smart.

kowloonkev

thebaz wrote: »

Too big to quote above - but I love Bielsa approach to the game , in fact my memories of Swansea are very positive too , whereas my memory of Big Sam at everton are being bored to not watching , we still have one of his 20 million duds on the bench whos scored abot 3 goals in 3 season - give me Bielsa or Nuno anyday , thats whats watching professional football is to me and most fans.

Let's be honest Everton are still are bore to watch but their manager's name ends with an 'i' so it's ok.

Sam was undermined from the start at Everton and Newcastle. We know what he can do given time and control as he had at Bolton.

Shanotheslayer

kowloonkev wrote: »

Let's be honest Everton are still are bore to watch but their manager's name ends with an 'i' so it's ok.

How many games a year do you watch them? They are nothing like the team under big Sam

kowloonkev

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

How many games a year do you watch them? They are nothing like the team under big Sam

Not saying they are the same. Saying if style is so important to Everton fans then they should be unhappy because they are boring to watch and fairly negative a lot of the time. If Sam had Everton second in the league I think Everton fans wouldn't have been concerned about style, same as most fans.

population

kowloonkev wrote: »

Let's be honest Everton are still are bore to watch but their manager's name ends with an 'i' so it's ok.

Sam was undermined from the start at Everton and Newcastle. We know what he can do given time and control as he had at Bolton.

Is that you Sam?

kowloonkev

kowloonkev wrote: »

Not saying they are the same. Saying if style is so important to Everton fans then they should be unhappy because they are boring to watch and fairly negative a lot of the time. If Sam had Everton second in the league I think Everton fans wouldn't have been concerned about style, same as most fans.

But the point is...it's not second. For fans, there is a big difference between negative football to succeed, to challenge for trophies, and negative football to survive.

Fans of Atletico Madrid, Jack Charlton's Irish team etc. tolerate grim football because it's eclipsed by the pleasure of winning. But the combination of awful football with the ambition of finishing 4th last...that might please owners, but not necessarily the fans. I'd rather see Leeds relegated playing Bielsa's football than grimly hang on playing an Allardyce type of game.

kowloonkev

[Deleted User] wrote: »

But the point is...it's not second. For fans, there is a big difference between negative football to succeed, to challenge for trophies, and negative football to survive.

Fans of Atletico Madrid, Jack Charlton's Irish team etc. tolerate grim football because it's eclipsed by the pleasure of winning. But the combination of awful football with the ambition of finishing 4th last...that might please owners, but not necessarily the fans. I'd rather see Leeds relegated playing Bielsa's football than grimly hang on playing an Allardyce type of game.

I think you have a good point but the problem for Sam is that Everton were in a place (and still are really) where challenging for trophies or being relegated are not really on the table. Being mid table and playing negatively is probably grim for fans with high expectations.

Personally I don't think Sam is a Pulis type. I think he builds foundations first with a view to continued improvement in results and style of play. That's what happened with Bolton. He has pigeonholed himself by taking the wrong jobs with dodgy owners imo. Of course he's also a bit dodgy himself. But West Brom might be a better fit, although I must say it's an extremely tough task to keep them up as i don't know who else they could finish above apart from Sheffield United and Fulham. Burnley are just too strong imo. Maybe Brighton.

Liamalone

I shouldn't really be replying, only glossed over the past few bits, but the blood boiled when I saw support for wee sam. A different take on the game he has but not one that should be supported.

Saving Christmas doesn't excuse all.

pjohnson

Wanting the team you "support" relegated but playing pretty is odd.

Theres no bonus points for possession/attempted shots/corners/etc.

beggars_bush

kowloonkev wrote: »

I think you have a good point but the problem for Sam is that Everton were in a place (and still are really) where challenging for trophies or being relegated are not really on the table. Being mid table and playing negatively is probably grim for fans with high expectations.

Personally I don't think Sam is a Pulis type. I think he builds foundations first with a view to continued improvement in results and style of play. That's what happened with Bolton. He has pigeonholed himself by taking the wrong jobs with dodgy owners imo. Of course he's also a bit dodgy himself. But West Brom might be a better fit, although I must say it's an extremely tough task to keep them up as i don't know who else they could finish above apart from Sheffield United and Fulham. Burnley are just too strong imo. Maybe Brighton.

He drinks pints of wine.
Everton seem to be doing just fine this season.

TheadoreT

He's thought of very highly by Bolton, Sunderland and Palace fans anyway.

I think hes sometimes judged unfairly, came into a mess of an Everton side without a pre season and brought stability. If you're given these short term projects constantly, solidifying the defense is going to be paramount and that's what he does better than most.

Often pigeon holed as that all he does and cant take side to the next level but most of the sides he managed dont have a next level based on their budgets. Most of them are now below the peak he brought them to. Everton the only one exception really given their current ownership but he wasnt given another season so we cant judge either way, but in his time their position graph was trending the right way.

TheadoreT

Perception is everything too. Jose shuts an opponent down and wins 2-0 with 2 shots on target and 25% possession he's called a tactical genius. Sam does it and he's called anti football and a dinosaur.

They actually had more shots on target than Liverpool yesterday, and a handful of breaks at the end were the ball to Grant better he could have been 1 on 1 with Allison. It was very smart football and very few have shown that sort of ability against Liverpool last few seasons.

pjohnson

pjohnson wrote: »

Wanting the team you "support" relegated but playing pretty is odd.

Theres no bonus points for possession/attempted shots/corners/etc.

You'd support awful football just so an English team could cling on to the top flight so the billionaire owners can get more money from TV rights? That's a little depressing.

pjohnson

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You'd support awful football just so an English team could cling on to the top flight so the billionaire owners can get more money from TV rights? That's a little depressing.

Good point. I better start supporting Salthill Devon only.

pjohnson

pjohnson wrote: »

Good point. I better start supporting Salthill Devon only.

The obvious question...if they are local to you, and quality of football is irrelevant...why wouldn't you?

Shanotheslayer

Did somebody just describe Everton as mid table when we're 2nd in the league?

I pretty much stopped reading after that.

Shanotheslayer

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The obvious question...if they are local to you, and quality of football is irrelevant...why wouldn't you?

Why is it a essential to support a team based on geographical location?

I'm pretty sure so O Devany Garden Flats was local growing up. Nothing better than knifes and fights whilst supporting your local right?