General Premier League Thread 2020-21 - Mod Notes in 1st post. [Updated 17/12/20]

mightyreds

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Did somebody just describe Everton as mid table when we're 2nd in the league?

I pretty much stopped reading after that.

Think that was when big sam was over them being described

Shanotheslayer

mightyreds wrote: »

Think that was when big sam was over them being described

It says In brackets (and still are really)

osarusan

I get the antipathy to Big Sam's way of playing the game, but apart from the neutral, who cares really.

What he does works, and that's why he will always be in demand for a club in a certain position. WBA picked up a valuable point yesterday and will be delighted about that. Results trump everything else, even if people say they don't.

thebaz

kowloonkev wrote: »

Let's be honest Everton are still are bore to watch but their manager's name ends with an 'i' so it's ok.

Sam was undermined from the start at Everton and Newcastle. We know what he can do given time and control as he had at Bolton.

Ok - i'll bite - he did well at Bolton , but his negative football was just dour at Everton , and jibing that we only like Ancelotti cause his name ends in . - is beyond daft (check his record) - Big Sam is no different to Pullis - when we had Sam at everton and all other fans got a laugh , yet no one wanted him at ther Big club , why not Big Sam at Old Trafford if he is so good !

Girly Gal

Generally Big Sam is brought in when a team is in relegation zone or struggling badly, first thing he does is make them difficult to beat. He's never gotten a team with decent quality players who should be in the top 6, he's best team was Bolton who he built himself and were decent to watch and had some great flair players. He'll never get one of the big sides as they generally are in the top half anyways so not at risk of going down, but, you can bet your life on it , if it looked like any of them might get relegated with less than half a season to go they'd be on to Big Sam and wouldn't care how he played as long as he kept them up.Big Sam pretty much guarantees premier league football for struggling clubs, so, he'll always be in demand.
Also there is more than one way to play football, contrasting styles make for interesting matches, some of the most interesting matches have finished 0-0 and some terrible matches have been high scoring. Possession based football can be boring too when there's no end product.

AdamD

pjohnson wrote: »

Wanting the team you "support" relegated but playing pretty is odd.

Theres no bonus points for possession/attempted shots/corners/etc.

And there's no entertainment in watching your team score every couple of games. There's an inbetween of course, though I'm fairly sure at this point that nuance means nothing to you.

TheadoreT

I think the English media can be so obnoxious when championing their own that it forces fans to go the opposite way and Sam is probably a victim of that. Fans just sort of write off English managers as prospects for bigger clubs for some reason regardless of style of play.

Like for instance everyone has been praising Hasenhüttl to the hilt this year, and saying he's a likely candidate to step up to a bigger job. Then you look at Dean Smith who's arguably been manager of the year so far the way he has improved Villa and has them playing but people would laugh at the prospect of him managing a bigger side. If he were say German or Austrian he'd be in a far more advantageous career position now.

thebaz

Girly Gal wrote: »

He'll never get one of the big sides as they generally are in the top half anyways so not at risk of going down, but, you can bet your life on it , if it looked like any of them might get relegated with less than half a season to go they'd be on to Big Sam and wouldn't care how he played as long as he kept them up.

Seriously do you think Liverpool, Man United , Chelsea or Arsnal fans would put up with a Big Sam appointment, nevermind Totenham, Everton ,Man City , wolves and Leicster

Girly Gal

thebaz wrote: »

Seriously do you think Liverpool, Man United , Chelsea or Arsnal fans would put up with a Big Sam appointment, nevermind Totenham, Everton ,Man City , wolves and Leicster

If it meant staying up they would, they'd just replace him in the summer once he keeps them up.

GLaDOS

Big Sam not getting enough credit on here. West Brom were superb in the 2nd half, very aggressive. Allison had to make a sharp save from Grant 1 v 1.

Father Hernandez

TheadoreT wrote: »

I think the English media can be so obnoxious when championing their own that it forces fans to go the opposite way and Sam is probably a victim of that. Fans just sort of write off English managers as prospects for bigger clubs for some reason regardless of style of play.

Like for instance everyone has been praising Hasenhüttl to the hilt this year, and saying he's a likely candidate to step up to a bigger job. Then you look at Dean Smith who's arguably been manager of the year so far the way he has improved Villa and has them playing but people would laugh at the prospect of him managing a bigger side. If he were say German or Austrian he'd be in a far more advantageous career position now.

I'd agree with this, it's hard to believe the last English manager to win the top division in England was 28 years ago, Howard Wilkinson for Leeds in '92.

I'd bet we won't see another English manager win the league in the next 5 years at least, maybe 10. Doubt any league has a similar record with domestic champions/managers.

TheadoreT

Father Hernandez wrote: »

I'd agree with this, it's hard to believe the last English manager to win the top division in England was 28 years ago, Howard Wilkinson for Leeds in '92.

I'd bet we won't see another English manager win the league in the next 5 years at least, maybe 10. Doubt any league has a similar record with domestic champions/managers.

Theres definitely some sort of modern phenomenon whereby people have a subconscious bias against people with regional accents and taking them seriously. Most British football people come from a fairly working class background and would have strong enough regional accents. I think we associate success more with posher or well spoken or foreign accents. Take that even to a political level and the Tories managed to get an overwhelming majority and won over a large share of the working class vote too.

.G.

We've seen it before with English managers, Pardew had Newcastle 6th one year, sacked the next year when it fell apart, Wilder last year compared to this, It would be no surprise if Dean Smiths path will be the same next season with Villa after a good season this Season. Allardyce, Moyes, Pulis, Pardew, Hodgson will always get jobs regardless of how well they do in their old ones. It's a crazy career when you think of it, continued failure never impacting on future job prospects.

Many foreign managers are the same though, Watford have had a a fair few duds, Bilic has credibility I can't fathom. They'll all do a job to a point but in terms of truly great managers, regardless of nationality, its a very very small pool.

eh i dunno

TheadoreT wrote: »

I think the English media can be so obnoxious when championing their own that it forces fans to go the opposite way and Sam is probably a victim of that. Fans just sort of write off English managers as prospects for bigger clubs for some reason regardless of style of play.

Like for instance everyone has been praising Hasenhüttl to the hilt this year, and saying he's a likely candidate to step up to a bigger job. Then you look at Dean Smith who's arguably been manager of the year so far the way he has improved Villa and has them playing but people would laugh at the prospect of him managing a bigger side. If he were say German or Austrian he'd be in a far more advantageous career position now.

I'd imagine Smith has spent a lot more money than hasenhuttl to be fair.

TheadoreT

.G. wrote: »

We've seen it before with English managers, Pardew had Newcastle 6th one year, sacked the next year when it fell apart, Wilder last year compared to this, It would be no surprise if Dean Smiths path will be the same next season with Villa after a good season this Season. Allardyce, Moyes, Pulis, Pardew, Hodgson will always get jobs regardless of how well they do in their old ones. It's a crazy career when you think of it, continued failure never impacting on future job prospects.

The fact you're lumping some good managers in with poor ones there proves the point that English managers are just all seen as the same. You can call Sam a lot of things but failure wouldn't be one. Hodgson has succeeded more than not where he's been. People just struggle with accessing relative success at sides that can never compete with top ones.

.G.

TheadoreT wrote: »

The fact you're lumping some good managers in with poor ones there proves the point that English managers are just all seen as the same. You can call Sam a lot of things but failure wouldn't be one. Hodgson has succeeded more than not where he's been. People just struggle with accessing relative success at sides that can never compete with top ones.

Well yes. It depends what you call "success" and that will be different from club to club. But whatever metric it has been at each of their clubs, they've all been sacked numerous times so can't have been that big of a success!

I mean I've no idea what a villa fan would deem as success, or a West Brom fan, or a Newcastle fan. The reality is outside of the clubs who can say they have a good chance of silverware, success to me would be staying in the premier league.

Stoke had it for years and got greedy, sacked Pulis and we know what happened next. Wenger was a safe manager for Arsenal but not good enough for fans and its been a sh!tshow ever since.

mightyreds

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

It says In brackets (and still are really)

Ah yeah its written poorly, I read it as they were challenging for trophies and not worrying about relegation till Big Sam came in.

Shanotheslayer

Any predictions for today lads? Some decent games.

Palace look dreadful lately but I can see them nicking something against Leicester. It's been awhile since Zaha had one of those amazing games.

Aston Villa have been quite impressive think they can also get a draw

Everton will probably be knackered as wouldn't be used to playing this many games closely. Considering missing some strong players I would have fancied us to get something if we had Richi/Digne playing. Altho City have been pretty facking shyte and we'll have our home fans which will be a big plus

3 draws today feck it!

.G.

Big Sam was a success at Bolton, he had them way way above where they usually are and have been ever since and he did it consistently for a number of years. Nowadays he's a "success" if he stops a team in the danger zone from going down.

pjohnson

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Any predictions for today lads? Some decent games.

Palace look dreadful lately but I can see them nicking something against Leicester. It's been awhile since Zaha had one of those amazing games.

Aston Villa have been quite impressive think they can also get a draw

Everton will probably be knackered as wouldn't be used to playing this many games closely. Considering missing some strong players I would have fancied us to get something if we had Richi/Digne playing. Altho City have been pretty facking shyte and we'll have our home fans which will be a big plus

3 draws today feck it!

Matches today

.G.

.G. wrote: »

We've seen it before with English managers...Moyes...

Moyes couldn't be any more Scottish if he was covered in haggis and deep fried...

~Rebel~

The British manager thing... to be honest I have trouble thinking of any that truly deserved their shot at the big time but didn’t get it. Hodgson got a shot, Rodgers has gotten 2 top 6 clubs, Moyes got a shot.

When Sam got Newcastle it was pretty much the most high profile job around (albeit a total poisoned chalice) given the long term lay of the land at the time (Liverpool in the midst of a Rafalution, Jose at Chelsea, Arsene at Arsenal, Ferguson at Utd, Moyes at Everton). There were no big clubs to be had at the time he would have been a genuine candidate. The next one to come available would’ve been Spurs - but he’d already taken the Newcastle job. Things could’ve been different had he held out longer at Bolton and waited for the right move. Since then he’s done pretty much nothing to deserve a shot at a top job again... he gave up on his once-excellent progressive style and has become more and more entrenched in a solid, safe approach. Which is very effective, but immediately puts a ceiling on your potential success. And it’s not because he didn’t have time - you can always see signs of the longer term plan in those first 6 months, even if embryonic, but he had just stopped doing - or trying to do - what he did with Jay-Jay, Stelios, and Djorkaeff. (He’d already begun becoming more pragmatic even at Bolton too).

As mentioned, success is relative. Hodgson is a great example of this - his record at Fulham was very similar to his record at Liverpool. For one of those that was an achievement, for the other, failure.

It’s no surprise that top Premier League clubs have tended to go for managers that have gone and proven something elsewhere if they didn’t get a chance at home. More British managers could learn from that. It served Hodgson well in fairness, and earned him the chance at Liverpool and England, even if the former proved to be above his level - but he put himself in the conversation.

(As for Dean Smith, he’s done really well this season, but it’s probably good to wait more than 12 games from when he narrowly escaped relegation to go giving him a top job)

citytillidie

pjohnson wrote: »

Matches today

Only day with no premier league games is Thursday

.G.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Moyes couldn't be any more Scottish if he was covered in haggis and deep fried...

Haha fair point. British!

Fitz*

Phil Foden unhappy at the lack of playing time at Man City according to James Ducker in the Telegraph.

~Rebel~

~Rebel~ wrote: »

The British manager thing... to be honest I have trouble thinking of any that truly deserved their shot at the big time but didn’t get it. Hodgson got a shot, Rodgers has gotten 2 top 6 clubs, Moyes got a shot.
...
(As for Dean Smith, he’s done really well this season, but it’s probably good to wait more than 12 games from when he narrowly escaped relegation to go giving him a top job)

Was thinking the same thing. The reason the last English manager to win the title was Wilkinson was not so much some assumption that people with foreign surnames were better, but because as a matter of fact when one thinks of the individuals, they were!

Look at the list of title winners since then, Ferguson, Winger, Mourinho, Klopp, Guardiola. Who would actually take Allardyce, Pardew or Hodgson over them? If we take possibly the best PL era English manager, Redknapp *, and the worst of the title winners, Rainieri, the gap closes alright. But apart from that, it's pretty big.

Also agree about Dean Smith. His has had a good 3 months, when the team he spent £120/£130 million actually performed at that level, if VAR worked they'd be in the Championship and he'd be at a different club.

* on the basis he did more in the club game in England, obviously Robson had a batter career.

Kiith

Everton vs City postponed apparently, due to COVID.

https://twitter.com/_pauljoyce/status/1343584465113804802?s=19

TitianGerm

Kiith wrote: »

Everton vs City postponed apparently, due to COVID.

https://twitter.com/_pauljoyce/status/1343584465113804802?s=19

Must be a big out break in one of the teams?

Fitz*

Null & void?!

On a serious note, surely Man City have a squad big enough to field the 14 players required.

Wuff Wuff

Kiith wrote: »

Everton vs City postponed apparently, due to COVID.

https://twitter.com/_pauljoyce/status/1343584465113804802?s=19

Give Everton the 3 points if City can't feild a team

RasTa

City probably. They should be forced to play it.

Wuff Wuff

TitianGerm wrote: »

Must be a big out break in one of the teams?

City... Kyle Walker (no surprise giving his numerous breaches of regulations) and Jesus have it

Fitz*

TitianGerm wrote: »

Must be a big out break in one of the teams?

Man city have 5 cases by the sounds of things. Ederson, Cancelo, Torres have been mentioned. To add to Walker & Jesus.

citytillidie

Kiith wrote: »

Everton vs City postponed apparently, due to COVID.

https://twitter.com/_pauljoyce/status/1343584465113804802?s=19

Man City trying to get the game off

Father Hernandez

https://twitter.com/sistoney67/status/1343585521675726849?s=20

As reliable as they get with Manchester clubs.

TitianGerm

citytillidie wrote: »

Man City trying to get the game off

Do Everton have to agree to a postponment? If they don't agree do City have to field an underage team or something?

Fitz*

I thought that as long as there was 14 fit players, then the game had to go ahead?

That said, the Newcastle situation did set a precedent when their game was called off with 5 cases.

RasTa

Does that mean their game on Sunday v Chelsea is off too?

eh i dunno

TitianGerm wrote: »

Do Everton have to agree to a postponment? If they don't agree do City have to field an underage team or something?

Suits everton tho with injuries and only 46 hours since they last played

TitianGerm

eh i dunno wrote: »

Suits everton tho with injuries and only 46 hours since they last played

Not if City had to play half a team and kids.

citytillidie

4 hours before kick off and only announce 5 more cases something fishy about that

eh i dunno

TitianGerm wrote: »

Not if City had to play half a team and kids.

Be still good enough to beat a jaded looking everton with 4 of their best players out

jacool

davemckenna25 wrote: »

I actually do enjoy this table as it gives a good view of things but would it be better and a more accurate representation if it somehow showed games in hand for teams.... maybe an * for 1 and ** for 2 after their name.
Villa could be 2nd if they won their games in hand but that isn't noticeable from the table.

Games in hand don't count.
Points win prizes - not the potential points that typically never arrive anyway.

davemckenna25

jacool wrote: »

Games in hand don't count.
Points win prizes - not the potential points that typically never arrive anyway.

That just makes no sense.
How can you say that typically noone wins points from games in hand... someone has to win points from a game.... either both teams get 1 point or 1 team gets 3 points.
Of course games in hand are relevant, they are the potential to win points.

ERG89

Might be a big goal for Palace after 2 terrible performances. Schmeichel should have kept it out imo.

niallo27

Think be best to postpone the whole league until March. City can't play in the next 14 days I presume now.

giveitholly

niallo27 wrote: »

Think be best to postpone the whole league until March. City can't play in the next 14 days I presume now.

What about the Euros?

niallo27

niallo27 wrote: »

Think be best to postpone the whole league until March. City can't play in the next 14 days I presume now.

Could well be a reduced season

citytillidie

niallo27 wrote: »

Think be best to postpone the whole league until March. City can't play in the next 14 days I presume now.

Man City V Chelsea is on Sky on Sunday, i wonder if they will call that game off now

osarusan

Fitz* wrote: »

I thought that as long as there was 14 fit players, then the game had to go ahead?

That said, the Newcastle situation did set a precedent when their game was called off with 5 cases.

Something as contagious as Covid is different to an injury list of hamstrings and ankle sprains and the like.