General Premier League Thread 2020-21 - Mod Notes in 1st post. [Updated 17/12/20]

DVDM93

Thiago breaking Premier League records on his debut.

All of us in here are very lucky as Premier League fans to have a player of his calibre gracing us with his presence.

Strap yourselves in & enjoy the show folks, it's only getting started.

https://twitter.com/OptaJoe/status/1307732548232114176?s=20

~Rebel~

Deleted User wrote: »

ok so fake narratives, thanks for clearing that up

I don't think they're expected to win it by any means, but I'd say anything other than a reasonably meaningful challenge will see Lampard replaced. I'd guess they're targeting ~80 points, which is reasonable enough given the players at their disposal.

~Rebel~

~Rebel~ wrote: »

I don't think they're expected to win it by any means, but I'd say anything other than a reasonably meaningful challenge will see Lampard replaced. I'd guess they're targeting ~80 points, which is reasonable enough given the players at their disposal.

Ya I'd agree on the 80 points or so and knitting the new team together, but like they some of the comments are way ott, both Pep and Klopp didnt reach there heights in the first year, Lampard into his 2nd but first meaningful stamp he has been able to put on the team in terms of recruitment.

Like I doubt he gets sacked if he finishes way behind after LIverpool and or city hitting ridiculous heights again.

But no fans, bookies anyone has tipped/priced chelsea up that way and the only way they can win is with major dips from the front runners

Gbear

Lampard and Chelsea should be nowhere near having any title pressure put on them this season. It should be a CL spot and developing a clear style of play, while settling in the new big money signings. A domestic cup would be a bonus.

It was the same with Klopp when he arrived (albeit from a lower start point). The kind of level that's been shown the last few years from City and Liverpool is absurdly high. You can't just rock up and get 100 odd points from nowhere. Even in Mourinho's first season, he inherited a team that came 2nd and got just shy of 80 points.

I'm far from convinced Lampard will have the wherewithall to acheive that, but he certainly shouldn't receive too much criticism for failing to meet absurd targets.

As for today, his game plan seemed sound enough. The red changed the game, but the situation was all about the knife-edge Chelsea were on. They were very disciplined in holding their line up until then but one slip-up and Mané was in, whether it was for a red, or if he had just rounded Kepa and scored a goal. Either way, it wasn't going to be easy for Chelsea to come back from that.

But if they tried to slug it out with Liverpool, they would've just been dismantled, so I still think the defensive approach was the right move.

They may well give Liverpool a better game in Anfield. I think this was a good time to play them.

Agent Coulson

Lampard won't be sacked for not getting close to Liverpool or City he will be sacked if he doesn't get near 3rd or 4th.

gimli2112

with the money that Chelsea have spent the Russian will expect a title tilt. I would. They were fantastic last year and have improved significantly via the transfer market.
I like Frank but the media driven narrative that there's low expectations just isn't true.

gimli2112

gimli2112 wrote: »

with the money that Chelsea have spent the Russian will expect a title tilt. I would. They were fantastic last year and have improved significantly via the transfer market.
I like Frank but the media driven narrative that there's low expectations just isn't true.

Agreed.

200m splashed for 3rd or 4th finish ? Chelsea managers have been sacked for achieving better than that.

RugbyLover123

Can’t judge Chelsea off that performance, it was essentially the same team that finished last season with Werner and Havertz. One of which has been in England about 2 weeks.

3rd with a decent showing in CL would be a good season for Chelsea. They’ve spent big, but mostly on players not used to the league or young.

Their aim this season should be to find a settled formation/team/style and bed in the new players to have a run at a title next season.

They really need to sort out their midfield. Kante is the best defensive midfielder in the world yet Lampard has him playing further up the field where he is nowhere near as effective. I’m not sure what Jorginho offers either. They need to find a role for Havertz quickly too. He’s played 2 positions in 2 games. I know he’s flexible but it’ll help if he has a defined role.

They have a hell of a lot of players that are around the same standard too I’m midfield/attack (Barkley, RLC, CHO, Mount). Lampard has a job on his hands keeping them all happy.

Positives signs on Werner though who I thought looked dangerous yesterday and will be a success.

A front 6 of the following will score plenty of goals once they settle.

Kante Kovacic
Ziyech Havertz Pulisic
Werner

gimli2112

Agreed on Werner but I think Chelsea's sights are higher than 3rd. We're all comparing the rest against Liverpool's last two years and Man City 2019 and a couple of years before that. That level of consistency can't be sustainable, it never has been before.
A challenge for the title and a good run in the CL would be a good year for them.

JPA

DVDM93 wrote: »

Thiago breaking Premier League records on his debut.

All of us in here are very lucky as Premier League fans to have a player of his calibre gracing us with his presence.

Strap yourselves in & enjoy the show folks, it's only getting started.

https://twitter.com/OptaJoe/status/1307732548232114176?s=20

Just don't let him tackle!

DVDM93

JPA wrote: »

Just don't let him tackle!

https://twitter.com/SambaRole/status/1307727336553365504?s=20

Wuff Wuff

i may just deactivate my twitter now to save space on my phone, DVDM will post all the tweets i see normally on here anyways :pac::D

DVDM93

DVDM93 wrote: »

Thiago breaking Premier League records on his debut.

All of us in here are very lucky as Premier League fans to have a player of his calibre gracing us with his presence.

Strap yourselves in & enjoy the show folks, it's only getting started.

https://twitter.com/OptaJoe/status/1307732548232114176?s=20

For comparison, so we can know how useful that stat is...how many players have played a maximum of 45 minutes, against a 10 man team?

Morzadec

For Lampard/Chelsea, I think it's a little bit in between the two arguments above. He shouldn't be expected to finish ahead of Liverpool and City, or even within 5 points of them (i.e. a proper league challenge is a bit unrealistic). As has been mentioned we're talking about possibly the two greatest sides in the history of the Premier League, never before has it been so hard to win the league. You're having to target 100 points which is absurd. We need to remind ourselves of the freakish consistency of Liverpool the last 2 seasons and City in 17/18 and 18/19. It's highly possible one of them gets close to 100 points again.

That said, with the money spent, finishing in the CL places would be a bare minimum and it should be done with a degree of ease this time, rather than the sweat it was last time.

A fair target for Frank this year in the league should be to go past 80 points, finish 3rd and close the gap to the league leaders to 10-15 points - a platform to mount a more realistic challenge next season.

However it's a very valid point made that Chelsea managers have been sacked after performing to what others would think is an acceptable level, so it's fair to speculate on whether the above would be enough. I think the above is the realistic view of what should be expected, but whether Abromovich feels the same after outlaying so much is definitely up for speculation

Fitz*

There was massive pressure on Klopp to challenge for the title, minimum, when Liverpool spent big in the summer of 2018. Liverpool were already a CL side then, like Chelsea are now. Both finished 4th the previous season. Liverpool finished that 2018/2019 season with 97 points with the title race going to the last day and won the Champions League. That was a 22 point jump. A 22 point jump for Chelsea will be 88 point this season.

Why is Lampard getting an easier ride?

pjohnson

Fitz* wrote: »

There was massive pressure on Klopp to challenge for the title, minimum, when Liverpool spent big in the summer of 2018. Liverpool were already a CL side then, like Chelsea are now. Both finished 4th the previous season. Liverpool finished that 2018/2019 season with 97 points with the title race going to the last day and won the Champions League. That was a 22 point jump. A 22 point jump for Chelsea will be 88 point this season.

Why is Lampard getting an easier ride?

Because 88 pts isn't sufficient to challenge for a title?

Potential Underachiever

Deleted User wrote: »

For comparison, so we can know how useful that stat is...how many players have played a maximum of 45 minutes, against a 10 man team?

It's a fair point, I think Thiago was brilliant yesterday, don't get me wrong but the stat is a bit pointless, Chelsea were camped in their own half, Thiago couldn't have came on in a better situation tbh and by the end him and Salah must have played about 10 passes to eachother from about 2 feet away from each other.

Fitz*

pjohnson wrote: »

Because 88 pts isn't sufficient to challenge for a title?

Is that a question or what are you trying to say?

My point was that Klopp was put under massive pressure to challenge for the title at a minimum when Liverpool spent big a few summers ago. Lampard is not getting the same treatment now. Why is that?

88 points could be sufficient for a title. It might not be, but it also could be. After 2 games played, nobody can say with conviction that it definitely won't be enough. Especially in a season that is going to be cramped into a shorter time frame.

Potential Underachiever

Potential Underachiever wrote: »

It's a fair point, I think Thiago was brilliant yesterday, don't get me wrong but the stat is a bit pointless, Chelsea were camped in their own half, Thiago couldn't have came on in a better situation tbh and by the end him and Salah must have played about 10 passes to eachother from about 2 feet away from each other.

As I didn't see the game, I certainly accept that he was brilliant.

It seem like such an utterly useless stat, the most passes by someone in 45 minutes, you'd just have to know who else has played in that position for 45 minutes against 10 men for it to be any way revealing.

Shanotheslayer

Lads it's because Frank is English and a Premier League golden boy. That's why he get's a much easier time.

That's all their is to it, nothing else.

Gbear

Fitz* wrote: »

There was massive pressure on Klopp to challenge for the title, minimum, when Liverpool spent big in the summer of 2018. Liverpool were already a CL side then, like Chelsea are now. Both finished 4th the previous season. Liverpool finished that 2018/2019 season with 97 points with the title race going to the last day and won the Champions League. That was a 22 point jump. A 22 point jump for Chelsea will be 88 point this season.

Why is Lampard getting an easier ride?

That was Klopp heading into his fourth season at Liverpool, where he had already clearly defined how he played. The next step was a credible title challenge. That it was possible even with City getting nearly 100 points was a matter of huge overacheivement relative to expectations. Nobody in the world, including Liverpool fans, expected 97 points, or would've been too critical if, say, Liverpool had got 90.

Not only does Lampard not have the same expectations as Klopp would, because Klopp is a more experienced and better manager, but the expectation that Chelsea would challenge for the title are far in excess of any expectations that Klopp has had during his time at Liverpool, other than perhaps those Klopp had for himself.

monkey9

Gbear wrote: »

Lampard and Chelsea should be nowhere near having any title pressure put on them this season.

Lampard and Chelsea should be nowhere near each other as manager of the club. It's exactly the reason why i don't ever want Gerrard managing Liverpool, the absolute assumption that it should happen is ridiculous.

Frank Lampard is being given a free hit by the media because he's English and to a lesser extent the Chelsea fans because he's a legend there.

His post match interview yesterday was atrocious. Throwing Kepa utterly under the bus without a hint of shame. You're the one picking him, Frank.

The comments on the red card was just dumb, but i'm assuming he was pretending to think like that.

Ultimately though, the money they've spent and the players they have brought in should hold no excuses for Lampard. Why is he getting leeway just because he's completely unproven compared to an experienced manager with a proven track record?

You can't just expect and accept mediocrity because the manager is a playing legend when you know that by appointing a proper manager, it would give you a better chance of success.

JPA

Klopp came to Liverpool with a higher pedigree than Lampard, hence higher expectations.

Lampard had a free hit last year due to the transfer ban and unquestionably did well introducing young players. Give it 6 months this season and if the defence is still a shambles and the team is underperforming questions will definitely be getting asked.
Just maybe not on Sky Sports.

Shanotheslayer

I just saw we're no longer top of the table. Well that was a fun 24 hours whilst it lasted. Never to be seen again

Wuff Wuff

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

I just saw we're no longer top of the table. Well that was a fun 24 hours whilst it lasted. Never to be seen again

win or draw against palace and you go back top again?

Gbear

monkey9 wrote: »

Lampard and Chelsea should be nowhere near each other as manager of the club. It's exactly the reason why i don't ever want Gerrard managing Liverpool, the absolute assumption that it should happen is ridiculous.

Frank Lampard is being given a free hit by the media because he's English and to a lesser extent the Chelsea fans because he's a legend there.

His post match interview yesterday was atrocious. Throwing Kepa utterly under the bus without a hint of shame. You're the one picking him, Frank.

The comments on the red card was just dumb, but i'm assuming he was pretending to think like that.

Ultimately though, the money they've spent and the players they have brought in should hold no excuses for Lampard. Why is he getting leeway just because he's completely unproven compared to an experienced manager with a proven track record?

You can't just expect and accept mediocrity because the manager is a playing legend when you know that by appointing a proper manager, it would give you a better chance of success.

There seems to be an assumption that players can get better, but managers can't.

Unless they're total gob****es, it should've been implicit in the hiring of Lampard that he would get more time than someone proven brought in from outside the club. They deliberately made that choice when they brought him in.

There are positives and negatives to both - there's been a carousel of managers at Chelsea for the past 20-odd years. They've appointed 11 managers in that time (Hiddink and Mourinho twice). The promise of a Lampard is that he brings a sense of stability and can instill a longer-term ethos beyond just dump trucks of cash and trophies (although they'll of course be part of it) before buggering off after 2 years.

If Chelsea show forward momentum, that's enough. He'll be held to a different standard because his goals are different this season to City's or Liverpool's. And that goes for Utd as well, although I think they lack the deliberation and strategy that Chelsea have shown, and the Solskjaer project is more likely to fail.

SureYWouldntYa

The expectation of a title challenge isn't there because everyone at the club knows well there isn't a title in this team

Lampard doesn't have expectations in part because of the overhaul the squad is currently doing to be a title contender, and the fact Lampard is learning on the job

I don't know if Klopp was expected after summer 2018 to challenge for the title, but he'd also won Bundesliga and been in a CL final before. Lampard meanwhile had made the Playoff final with Frank Lampard's Derby County

Being a Chelsea legend won't get him off the hook if things aren't good, look at Mourinho mark II for an example of that

If anything last season he exceeded expectation in getting 4th at all, look at predictions for top 4 last year and tell me who put Chelsea there. Doing the same again (ie 4th by skin of teeth) this season would be a slight disappointment but not enough to get him sacked, the only way he's sacked is if we find ourselves in the lower half of the table in December like Jose or no chance of 4th with 4/5 games to go

rob316

Roman isn't as invested in the Chelsea project anymore, I don't think he will be pulling the trigger on Frank too soon.

Iused2likebusts

Lampard went 4 3 2 at the start of the second half and then switched to 4 4 1 after they conceded 2 goals. It invited liverpool to overload them out wide very naive.

8-10

Deleted User wrote: »

It seem like such an utterly useless stat, the most passes by someone in 45 minutes, you'd just have to know who else has played in that position for 45 minutes against 10 men for it to be any way revealing.

What you really need is the stat versus any other player in a 45min period. The overall point was that he came in after a single training session with a new team and passed more than anyone else, yes against 10 men but shows how quickly he adapted to the team that they kept passing to him.

Some other stats about Thiago:

• He has more long passes than any other outfield player so far this season
  
• He has more touches of the ball this season than Aubameyang, Son or Hendrick
  
• He has more total passes this season than Kante, Henderson or Pogba

Sample size is tiny, and circumstances against Chelsea were in his favour. Let's see how his stats far for the rest of the season and we'll see if these ones were 'utterly useless' or if they served as an early indication of his passing ability.

Time will tell

SureYWouldntYa

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Lampard went 4 3 2 at the start of the second half and then switched to 4 4 1 after they conceded 2 goals. It invited liverpool to overload them out wide very naive.

Liverpool being strongest out wide aside, there was going to be an overload somewhere

At 0-0 a 2 man Chelsea midfield against a 3 man midfield of Liverpool would have caused problems there as well, the nature of being down a man

If the 432 included 2 wingers and nobody up top people would have complaints about that too

8-10

8-10 wrote: »

Let's see how his stats far for the rest of the season and we'll see if these ones were 'utterly useless' or if they served as an early indication of his passing ability.

An "early indicator" of his passing ability?

Is it not possible to form an assessment based on his 200+ games for Barca and Bayern?

8-10

Deleted User wrote: »

An "early indicator" of his passing ability?

Is it not possible to form an assessment based on his 200+ games for Barca and Bayern?

Yes, but you need to see if it will apply to the PL. So it's a wait and see to see where he ends up at the end of the season in passing stats, seeing as we're saying we can't judge him just on this one game.

martyos121

Don’t see red cards given often for those, but it’s the right call and I’m glad to see it given for a change.

artanevilla

Hopefully they've been told to clamp down on it.

rob316

That's not close to a blatant goal scoring opportunity, Watkins had loads to do.

artanevilla

If he had have went down there would be no argument.

FluffPiece

Potential Underachiever wrote: »

It's a fair point, I think Thiago was brilliant yesterday, don't get me wrong but the stat is a bit pointless, Chelsea were camped in their own half, Thiago couldn't have came on in a better situation tbh and by the end him and Salah must have played about 10 passes to eachother from about 2 feet away from each other.

Someone should ask Kepa how hard it is to make passes like that :pac:

JPA

Walker Stones Ake Mendy in defence for City.

That could be quite interesting!

DVDM93

FluffPiece wrote: »

Someone should ask Kepa how hard it is to make passes like that :pac:

would he still refuse to come off as a sub as he did before I wonder? :pac:

I'd say he'd welcome it these days tbh.

Plasandrunt

why isn't Sterling booked there?

ERG89

Have they stopped bookings for blatant dives?

chips1234

why are city playing in the bolton wanderers kit ?

FluffPiece

First game of the season for city, first two minutes and a blatant dive, no card....

martingriff

DVDM93 wrote: »

would he still refuse to come off as a sub as he did before I wonder? :pac:

I'd say he'd welcome it these days tbh.

While I am very happu we won I just can't get joy from a player falling apart. He knew he was finished since the summer knew a new keeper was coming and had a bad game the game before. Lampard should have put on the other keeper

martingriff

Well that was a short start to your season. Hope its not 2 bad. He did jog off

Loafing Oaf

Rory Delap's son on the bench for City. Wonder will they bring him on if they get a throw in a promising position:P

JPA

I don't think Mendy will be going straight in the Chelsea team even if Kepa seems to want to give up his place.

SureYWouldntYa

JPA wrote: »

I don't think Mendy will be going straight in the Chelsea team even if Kepa seems to want to give up his place.

Kepa does have form in not coming off when he's supposed to

ERG89

I know they sold Doherty but why Adama Traore is being used as a makeshift right wing back is a mystery. He is not even remotely arsed defending.