Republic of Ireland Team Talk/News/Rumours 2020/2021 - see Mod Note in OP [18/11/20]

ArmaniJeanss

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

No they won't, because there will only be a finite amount of visas available, so not everyone who wants one will get one.
And from the EU players perspective it will be much less hassle to get a job in the EU where no visa or paperwork is required than in the UK where it is.

Sam Allardyce was already complaining that he couldn't sign players because of Brexit so there's definitely some truth in what you say.
(We could laugh seeing as Sam was a big Brexit support, but that would be petty. Oh go on then, just a little chuckle)

I do think at the top it probably won't make much difference - Liverpool and Arsenal etc will be signing players who will most likely easily meet the new FA/HomeOffice criteria.

It's the 'punty' signing by Palace or Brighton from the bottom of Ligue 1 or the Eriverdisie which may be stopped. Whether that leads to more opportunities for Irish players is fairly doubtful alright.

TheCitizen

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

No they won't, because there will only be a finite amount of visas available, so not everyone who wants one will get one.
And from the EU players perspective it will be much less hassle to get a job in the EU where no visa or paperwork is required than in the UK where it is.

Are there conditions with the British Visa for European players, do they need to be international players or meet certain standards re senior appearances? Hopefully Brexit will impact the EPL. Young Irish players need to be thinking about Germany Belgium Holland etc. and hopefully over time the LOI will improve and our best players develop in Ireland.

DM_7

It is interesting to see the GAA mentioned.

We are on the back of a sustained period of investment by the GAA in games promotion officers and underage skill developments. In the capital in particular this has led to greater participation and great success for Dublin.

A snippet of the type of activity an investment in Dublin alone:

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2020/1207/1182879-capital-investment-inside-dublins-23-year-headstart/

GPOs

At this stage, through a special budget measure, agreed during the presidency of Sean Kelly, close to €1m a year for the last six years had been given to the GAA by the Irish Sports Council (ISC) to fund the running of projects in Dublin GAA alone.

Much of that funding was badly required, with the GAA fearing that if they lost the battle in the capital, where almost 30% of the country's children were now born, they could eventually lose the war against other sports.

The funding helped coaching in so many ways. There were now close to 50 Games Promotion Officers employed. It was almost on a 'one per club' basis.

Half of the cost of these GPOs was met by the club they were attached to, the rest came from the GAA - through the Sports Council, Leinster Council and Dublin County Board itself.

Some clubs like Kilmacud Crokes and Ballyboden St Enda's, because of their sheer numbers, had a second GPO that they funded entirely themselves.

It just can't be a coincidence that the generational gap within the Irish soccer team coincides so well with the volume of players that are getting produced by Dublin and the shift in requirements by English clubs to a more technical type of player.

The real soccer and GAA battle is at the 5 to 9 age groups now, not in teens. While GAA and Rugby or even Aussie Rules are battling over teenage players with transversal skills that will work in Rugby or Aussie Rules from GAA, where a rawer athlete can move into those sports with success, soccer requires a level of technical skill that has to be already present and developed at a much younger age.

In relation to England, we rightfully worry about the reliance on English teams to develop players but the skill set they seek out has changed in the last decade. Clubs are predominantly seeking a more technical player than they used to in the past so unless Irish players develop those technical skills at a young age then it is only the lower leagues where they have a chance to do well.

I don't want to turn this into a GAA conversation but there is an obvious battle at young ages to get kids involved and also families, if a local club can be successful in reaching the family and parents it has a greater chance of success as they are the ones who will be bringing kids to training and games.

Across sport socioeconomic backgrounds are changing, family support and accessibility to sports for people without the family supports structures are a major issue. Even the GAA is struggling to make an impact in parts of the capital and getting kids onto pitches to work on skill development or make the game appealing to them in 'better off' areas is much easier to achieve.

GAA is also a home based system with local and county teams, competition amongst clubs is vastly different and that system is far less volatile than soccer. Kids are generally with the same club (or at least the merged underage version of their local club) from start of their time playing right to the very end.

Some examples of the soccer system that many kids would not have the support system in their homes that would be needed to navigate through:

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/national-league/home-truths-deep-divisions-on-how-to-produce-better-young-players-in-ireland-1.4170805

The movement of players between clubs in schoolboy football here is a huge issue in itself with Shelbourne’s Dave Henderson suggesting that he sees players who are already on their fifth club aged 13 and points out that no parent would think changing school, with all it entails, would be a good idea.

Within the underage national leagues, a study by Dundalk-based primary teacher Tom O’Connor has found that just two of nearly 400 players signed for the under-19 league in 2014 were still at the same clubs at the end of last season.

“Our underage national league side costs us €100,000 a year,” says Will Clarke of Bray Wanderers/St Joseph’s Boys, “but the players can only be signed on what are effectively 10-month contracts after which they are all free agents. If somebody poaches our three best players, then what’s the point; we would be better off putting that money directly into the first team. Plus, we then have to go and poach some other club’s three best players. The emphasis here has to shift from recruiting players to developing them.”

There is a clear need for a national association to be assisting kids and young people where they are provided with coaching and advice that is focused on assisting the kids. A club led system is always going to be be more focused on whatever represents success for that team at that time and not be (and can't be) about the longer term development.

Francie Barrett

Girly Gal wrote: »

The point is, 20, 30 even 40 years ago with less players playing at grassroots level we were producing more players who could play at top level clubs, atm we don't have any out field player playing CL level football and haven't had one in a good few years, in fact we have very few players who can consistently hold down a place in premier league teams and once Sheffield are relegated we'll have even less. It's very difficult for any manager to turn the current group of players into a team that can at least challenge for qualification.

West Brom look likely to go down as well, so that'll mean Robinson and O'Shea dropping into the Championship. With Newcastle in freefall, we might also see Clark and Hendrick joining them.

~Rebel~

TheCitizen wrote: »

Are there conditions with the British Visa for European players, do they need to be international players or meet certain standards re senior appearances? Hopefully Brexit will impact the EPL. Young Irish players need to be thinking about Germany Belgium Holland etc. and hopefully over time the LOI will improve and our best players develop in Ireland.

There’s a whole points system coming in to easily evaluate players based on their youth and pro careers so far. Hit the points total required and you’re in. If you’re just below the target number there’s an ‘exceptions’ process.

If you’re coming from another major team/league you have most of the points needed by default, and then get extra points from youth or senior caps, playing in European competition, the level of performance the previous team was at etc etc.

The Guardian football podcast did quite a good breakdown special on it all a few months ago.

ArmaniJeanss

TheCitizen wrote: »

Are there conditions with the British Visa for European players, do they need to be international players or meet certain standards re senior appearances? Hopefully Brexit will impact the EPL. Young Irish players need to be thinking about Germany Belgium Holland etc. and hopefully over time the LOI will improve and our best players develop in Ireland.

This is as good an explanation of the intricacies of it that I've seen.
It's definitely one of those questions that there's no quick answer for.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/dec/28/football-and-brexit-a-guide-to-the-new-rules

Hammer Archer

I feel that results like Saturday's will become more and more common for the foreseeable future. The last 10-15 years have seen us scrape by similar teams with us getting out of jail thanks to luck, top class individual players and/or players in good form. In qualifying for WC 2010, we were behind at home to Georgia for the majority of the game, only for the referee to award us a non-existent penalty late in the second half. A few years later, we needed 2 goals in the last 5 minutes to beat Kazakhstan. Gradually, regardless of the manager, we've been finding it more and more difficult to beat these "lower-class" teams. Who can forget having only 25% possession at one point against Georgia and requiring an own goal and an injury time second to beat Gibraltar at home? And those are the ones just at the top of my head.

The sad fact is that we no longer have a Robbie Keane or an in-form Shane Long or even a player who can act as a target man like Jonathan Walters/David McGoldrick in order to dig us out with goals. This is, in my view, the worst squad that Ireland has had since I've been alive. That's not to say that Kenny shouldn't take blame for what happened on Saturday as we still should be managing to get results, but it is a sad indictment of the complete mismanagement of Irish football by the FAI for decades. I feel we're going to gradually slide down the rankings (we're already down to 47th thanks to our last two defeats) resulting in us being 4th seeds in qualifying groups for a long while. Things will get better eventually but I think it's going to be exceptionally painful to watch for fans for quite a while.

gormdubhgorm

DM_7 wrote: »

It is interesting to see the GAA mentioned.

We are on the back of a sustained period of investment by the GAA in games promotion officers and underage skill developments. In the capital in particular this has led to greater participation and great success for Dublin.

A snippet of the type of activity an investment in Dublin alone:

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2020/1207/1182879-capital-investment-inside-dublins-23-year-headstart/



It just can't be a coincidence that the generational gap within the Irish soccer team coincides so well with the volume of players that are getting produced by Dublin and the shift in requirements by English clubs to a more technical type of player.

The real soccer and GAA battle is at the 5 to 9 age groups now, not in teens. While GAA and Rugby or even Aussie Rules are battling over teenage players with transversal skills that will work in Rugby or Aussie Rules from GAA, where a rawer athlete can move into those sports with success, soccer requires a level of technical skill that has to be already present and developed at a much younger age.

The GAA always had the jump on soccer. Because many in admin in the GAA had business acumen and were educated. Many of the crowd that run/ran soccer were mostly working class lads without much education. The peak of Drums and Bohs was let die. Once flights become cheaper to go to England it was game over. Soccer admin had no clue how to fight it. That was the beginning of the end of a solid foundation.

When the GAA re-developed Croke Park about 20 years ago many soccer lads were laughing and saying they will go bust. We can take it off them then!

Look at the way it went though, a bit of foresight and planning and the GAA took off. The FAI does not even have their own stadium. When the lease is up on the AVIVA it will fully revert to the IRFU.

But you are right if Dublin soccer loses out the GAA Irish soccer is fecked altogether. As that is where the most soccer players come from.
I remember a soccer coach in Finglas telling me of the battles he had with Erin's Isle over players. It was about 15 ish years ago when Erin's Isle had a really strong team.

gormdubhgorm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

This is as good an explanation of the intricacies of it that I've seen.
It's definitely one of those questions that there's no quick answer for.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/dec/28/football-and-brexit-a-guide-to-the-new-rules

I will that a read later on, thanks.

Fr Tod Umptious

TheCitizen wrote: »

Are there conditions with the British Visa for European players, do they need to be international players or meet certain standards re senior appearances? Hopefully Brexit will impact the EPL. Young Irish players need to be thinking about Germany Belgium Holland etc. and hopefully over time the LOI will improve and our best players develop in Ireland.

They need to be thinking of the options alright

1. England
Pro - No visa required, same language, close by, easy to assimilate, lots of support from Irish organizations.
Con- Over 18 before you can sign a contract.

2. Europe
Pro- Can sign contracts under 18, no visa required, better overall technical approach to development (or so people say anyway)
Con - Language and cultural difference, competing with bigger pool of players that have been developed on the continent

pjohnson

GAA has 32 county organisations and allows it to get more coverage to underage groups, that then can lead to senior call ups to the county team aswell. LOI just doesnt have near that organisation.

Fr Tod Umptious

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

This is as good an explanation of the intricacies of it that I've seen.
It's definitely one of those questions that there's no quick answer for.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/dec/28/football-and-brexit-a-guide-to-the-new-rules

That's a good read
The top clubs will be Ok in the sense that they can attract the top players that easily qualify for work permits, but when you go down the table an into the next tiers that teams will have to look closer to home for talent.

Francie Barrett

TheCitizen wrote: »

and hopefully over time the LOI will improve and our best players develop in Ireland.

This isn't ever going to change, the financial gap between Ireland and England is just too vast.

A top and proven LOI professional earns €1k a week, and if they get offered anything more than a 1 year contract, they are lucky. Any of the 17/18 year old academy players in the Premier League/Championship/Celtic are on that sort of money at least, and they often have 2-4 year contracts in place. I'd say once any of these lads are getting anywhere near a senior team, that money shoots up again. Parrott for example apparently signed a £15k a week deal last year after he got a few senior appearances. That is obviously an outlier, but you get the idea. Until English football implodes and salaries are drastically cut, our best talent will continue to end up going abroad.

Banjaxed82

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

They need to be thinking of the options alright

1. England
Pro - No visa required, same language, close by, easy to assimilate, lots of support from Irish organizations.
Con- Over 18 before you can sign a contract.

2. Europe
Pro- Can sign contracts under 18, no visa required, better overall technical approach to development (or so people say anyway)
Con - Language and cultural difference, competing with bigger pool of players that have been developed on the continent

Just regarding the European option. Ok, culture can take a bit of time to get use to, but it's not outer Mongolia. Belgium, Netherlands are hardly going to create culture shock in a young lad.

Also, regarding the language, I've watched a lot of Anderlecht given Cullen's connection, and Vincent Kompany spends the majority if not all the game communicating in English. I think the language aspect is probably over cooked. When you have players from different countries in the team, you'll probably find that English is the default language, given how well it's spoken from an early age in the these countries/Scandinavia, etc

I think we just need a critical mass of players opting for countries besides England in order for it to catch fire. One cracking player to emerge will instill confidence in next generation to take similar path.

Francie Barrett

Any thoughts for the team on Wednesday? Had the Luxembourg went well, he probably would have rotated the team, I think he might also drop the three man central defence.

---

Bazunu
Christie Duffy Lenihan Manning
- Hendrick Coventry Molumby

---

Horgan Parrott Curtis

I think Curtis and Lenihan in particular have to start. Lenihan is captain of Blackburn and been getting rave reviews. Curtis is League 1, but he's been showing a lot there and hopefully will be making the step up to Championship next year. He looks a like a bit of firey character too, he might just help get a response from this team.

I hope that he doesn't feel the need to start Coventry, I simply don't see what he has done to deserve being in this squad at all.

Banjaxed82

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Any thoughts for the team on Wednesday? Had the Luxembourg went well, he probably would have rotated the team, I think he might also drop the three man central defence.

---

Bazunu
Christie Duffy Lenihan Manning
- Hendrick Coventry Molumby

---

Horgan Parrott Curtis

I think Curtis and Lenihan in particular have to start. Lenihan is captain of Blackburn and been getting rave reviews. Curtis is League 1, but he's been showing a lot there and hopefully will be making the step up to Championship next year.

I hope that he doesn't feel the need to start Coventry, I simply don't see what he has done to deserve being in this squad at all.

Zero creativity. No matter what team we throw out. Even if you throw Knight in there. Same issue again and again. You can already to see the dead ends we'll encounter in the final third.

johnnyryan89

Banjaxed82 wrote: »

Zero creativity. No matter what team we throw out. Even if you throw Knight in there. Same issue again and again. You can already to see the dead ends we'll encounter in the final third.

Pity Jack Byrne is injured, because the whole he only plays at X level surely means jack **** when Luxembourg look more comfortable on the ball than you. Plus he's actually decent with set pieces too.

ebbsy

Is there anything to be said for an All Ireland team ?

Francie Barrett

Banjaxed82 wrote: »

Zero creativity. No matter what team we throw out. Even if you throw Knight in there. Same issue again and again. You can already to see the dead ends we'll encounter in the final third.

We have to play someone, that is unless we RSVP that we won't be coming that night and Qatar are awarded a 3-0 walkover

johnnyryan89

ebbsy wrote: »

Is there anything to be said for an All Ireland team ?

Turkeys don't vote for Christmas. The blazers will fight it.

johnnyryan89

https://twitter.com/gcooney93/status/1376517286098534402

TheCitizen

He may as well dispense with the 3 at the back especially with Stevens and Doherty both out. Don’t think it worked well anyway. Serbia exploited the vacated space for their goals. We all wanted him to try 3-5-2 but to try it in the Nations League.

It was a small step forward v Serbia followed by several steps back v Luxembourg. He’s no nearer knowing what his first pick team is now than when he started.

The_Kew_Tour

Banjaxed82 wrote: »

Zero creativity. No matter what team we throw out. Even if you throw Knight in there. Same issue again and again. You can already to see the dead ends we'll encounter in the final third.

That's the depressing part. No creativity in any Midfielders at the minute

Francie Barrett

https://twitter.com/Jordy_OBrien/status/1376514808879661057

Banjaxed82

johnnyryan89 wrote: »

Pity Jack Byrne is injured, because the whole he only plays at X level surely means jack **** when Luxembourg look more comfortable on the ball than you. Plus he's actually decent with set pieces too.

Should have called up Connor Ronan. Not playing at the highest level, but desperately need someone who's going to put their foot on the ball in the final third and have a bit of invention about them.

Persisting with this energetic grafter in advanced midfield position seems futile if the said player struggles to create.

Don't think Ronan would have been out of his depth against Luxembourg or Qatar anyway.

Oat23

Augme wrote: »

It was actually the LOI type of fans who went to games who have out us in this position more than any other type of fan tbf.

Almost choked reading this. LOI fans supporting LOI clubs are responsible for the collapse of football in this country? We've been the ones shouting for change longer than anyone as we've been seeing the rot with our own eyes every week. We are the ones who have been getting fined since the 00s for calling Delaney out at club matches while the rest of you are busy watching Sky Sports down the pub.

Most of the damage could have been avoided if more Irish football fans had been paying attention to football in this country. Stuff like the tennis ball protest came a decade too late.

briany

ebbsy wrote: »

Is there anything to be said for an All Ireland team ?

There's a good deal of ill will between the IFA and FAI over player 'poaching' (it's really a whole discussion in itself). Not that either organisation was ever really serious about doing it anyway. Not that the North are any great shakes themselves at the moment, but I think they'll enjoy watching the Republic's team and governing body wallow in the mire for a while.

johnnyryan89

Banjaxed82 wrote: »

Should have called up Connor Ronan. Not playing at the highest level, but desperately need someone who's going to put their foot on the ball in the final third and have a bit of invention about them.

Persisting with this energetic grafter in advanced midfield position seems futile if the said player struggles to create.

Don't think Ronan would have been out of his depth against Luxembourg or Qatar anyway.

Said it before he should just pick certain players that suit the way he wants the team to play. Such as Kelleher or Bazunu in goals because they're ball playing keepers or a Conor Ronan whose comfortable with the ball at his feet and can pick out passes. Regardless of who he picks there's always gonna be complaints. **** at this stage I'd play Coleman as the attacking midfielder given he's our smartest player on the ball.

johnnyryan89

briany wrote: »

There's a good deal of ill will between the IFA and FAI over player 'poaching' (it's really a whole discussion in itself). Not that either organisation was ever really serious about doing it anyway. Not that the North are any great shakes themselves at the moment, but I think they'll enjoy watching the Republic's team and governing body wallow in the mire for a while.

Because half the blazers would be out of a job. Would you push for something if it meant you'd possibly lose your job.

super_furry

There zero appetite among the IFA, Northern Ireland supporters or Northern Ireland players for an All-Ireland team. It's an absolute non-runner.

Fr Tod Umptious

Banjaxed82 wrote: »

Just regarding the European option. Ok, culture can take a bit of time to get use to, but it's not outer Mongolia. Belgium, Netherlands are hardly going to create culture shock in a young lad.

Also, regarding the language, I've watched a lot of Anderlecht given Cullen's connection, and Vincent Kompany spends the majority if not all the game communicating in English. I think the language aspect is probably over cooked. When you have players from different countries in the team, you'll probably find that English is the default language, given how well it's spoken from an early age in the these countries/Scandinavia, etc

I think we just need a critical mass of players opting for countries besides England in order for it to catch fire. One cracking player to emerge will instill confidence in next generation to take similar path.

This is the key point.

Brexit and all it will still remain easier to go to England to try and make it rather than continent.
And looking at it from the view of a teenage kid and their family even more so.

It's grand and dandy for us here to say they should go to Europe and develop their skills etc., but we are not in their shoes.

Francie Barrett

Banjaxed82 wrote: »

Should have called up Connor Ronan.

Ronan is 23 and playing tier 2 Swiss football. From the highlights I've seen (albeit limited), he's doing ok, but we haven't seen anything to suggest he could step up to the level required. 1 goal and 2 assists from an attacking player in a poor league isn't a great haul either.

briany

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/leaked-report-reveals-how-much-18169396

Here's a very interesting report. The average wage in League One in England is approaching 5 grand a week. If you're making 6 figures a year, you're doing alright for yourself.

Even after retirement, you can make fairly good money as a physio or coaching assistant at an EPL or championship side.

There doesn't appear to be the same money at other European leagues of a similar level. It wouldn't be bad money at all, but not as good a figure as they could get closer to home. So, with the combination of the greater cultural barrier and the money disparity, there'll be no real incentive for young Irish players to broaden their horizons until they're muscled out of the English game at anything like a high level.

Banjaxed82

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Ronan is 23 and playing tier 2 Swiss football. From the highlights I've seen (albeit limited), he's doing ok, but we haven't seen anything to suggest he could step up to the level required. 1 goal and 2 assists from an attacking player in a poor league isn't a great haul either.

Yes, I qualified this. My point is he would potentially offer something different. With Hendrick, Molumby, Knight, Browne we know exactly what they can't do.

We know what Ronan can do but could he do it against Luxembourg? Who knows.

Pawwed Rig

super_furry wrote: »

There zero appetite among the IFA, Northern Ireland supporters or Northern Ireland players for an All-Ireland team. It's an absolute non-runner.

Equally you have divisive figures like James McClean and a huge contingent of RA heads in the Ireland supporter ranks that would turn them off.

I think it is the only way forward tbh. Unite the leagues and then eventually the national team. Unfortunately the worst kind of people inhabit both federations so I can't see it happening before a border poll on unification.

gormdubhgorm

briany wrote: »

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/leaked-report-reveals-how-much-18169396

Here's a very interesting report. The average wage in League One in England is approaching 5 grand a week. If you're making 6 figures a year, you're doing alright for yourself.

Even after retirement, you can make fairly good money as a physio or coaching assistant at an EPL or championship side.

There doesn't appear to be the same money at other European leagues of a similar level. It wouldn't be bad money at all, but not as good a figure as they could get closer to home. So, with the combination of the greater cultural barrier and the money disparity, there'll be no real incentive for young Irish players to broaden their horizons until they're muscled out of the English game at anything like a high level.

Yeah it will take a brave young fella to try and make a go of it in a country besides England. Can Ireland have a fella with the maturity to try another league besides England. Like Bellingham and Sancho did for England?

It will take a confident player and player with a good head on his shoulders.
Robbie Keane was brave enough and confident enough to pick Wolves over bigger clubs, Because his reasoning was he could get a better chance of gametime at a younger age.

He was also brave enough to move to Inter Milan to give it a go. I assume in those days the money was better in Italy than the EPL?

Cullen has gone to Anderlecht because of the Vincent Kompany factor will it improve him technically after a while? Time will tell I suppose.

Beechwoodspark

Spoke to a friend of mine at lunchtime who was and is a huge Irish soccer supporter ever since the late 70s

He said to me “I genuinely think fast forward ten years from now we won’t have qualified for anything”

If that is how a relatively well informed and “long standing” supporter is thinking, it’s a bit of an eye opener.

briany

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Spoke to a friend of mine at lunchtime who was and is a huge Irish soccer supporter ever since the late 70s

He said to me “I genuinely think fast forward ten years from now we won’t have qualified for anything”

If that is how a relatively well informed and “long standing” supporter is thinking, it’s a bit of an eye opener.

The average life expectancy in Ireland is around 80 years old. That's only 20 World Cups. For some, Ireland getting to big tournaments isn't just kind of important - it's existential. We'd like to see Ireland get a few more moments in the footballing sun before we're all dead. That's what makes a bleak outlook on the medium to long-term future of the team all the more depressing, such as your friend expressed.

Fr Tod Umptious

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Spoke to a friend of mine at lunchtime who was and is a huge Irish soccer supporter ever since the late 70s

He said to me “I genuinely think fast forward ten years from now we won’t have qualified for anything”

If that is how a relatively well informed and “long standing” supporter is thinking, it’s a bit of an eye opener.

A bit like we never qualified for anything between 1934 and 1988

In reality Ireland's ability to qualify for things with any regularity was only between 1988 and 1994 with outlier again in 2002 and 2014 and the expanded 2016.

So even from the start of the Charlton era to now we have only qualified for 6 out of 17 tournaments, 35%

Obviously tournaments were smaller between 1934 and 1996 but equally there were less UEFA members during that time.

Did you smash it

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

A bit like we never qualified for anything between 1934 and 1988

In reality Ireland's ability to qualify for things with any regularity was only between 1988 and 1994 with outlier again in 2002 and 2014 and the expanded 2016.

So even from the start of the Charlton era to now we have only qualified for 6 out of 16 tournaments, 37%

Obviously tournaments were smaller between 1934 and 1996 but equally there were less UEFA members during that time.

Being dead in the water before half the games are completed will be unique though.

Banjaxed82

Is the World Cup being expanded to 142 million teams in 2026. I think that we will qualify for something in the next 10 years assuming the standard of player even goes up a notch more.

DM_7

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Yeah it will take a brave young fella to try and make a go of it in a country besides England. Can Ireland have a fella with the maturity to try another league besides England. Like Bellingham and Sancho did for England?

It will take a confident player and player with a good head on his shoulders.
Robbie Keane was brave enough and confident enough to pick Wolves over bigger clubs, Because his reasoning was he could get a better chance of gametime at a younger age.

He was also brave enough to move to Inter Milan to give it a go. I assume in those days the money was better in Italy than the EPL?

Cullen has gone to Anderlecht because of the Vincent Kompany factor will it improve him technically after a while? Time will tell I suppose.

Cullen is not just an anomaly for going to Belgium to play, he was not part of the Irish system. He was at West Ham as a child (Under 10) and has been 'developed' in full by the English system.

Are Ireland producing players in sufficient numbers within Ireland that will be in demand at 16 or 17 to go and be part of the Belgian or Dutch systems?

Did you smash it

Banjaxed82 wrote: »

Is the World Cup being expanded to 142 million teams in 2026. I think that we will qualify for something in the next 10 years assuming the standard of player even goes up a notch more.

Europe is getting three more places I think. 16 uefa teams in all. The euros and its 24 teams is by far our best hope of playing in a major tournament.

gormdubhgorm

DM_7 wrote: »

Cullen is not just an anomaly for going to Belgium to play, he was not part of the Irish system. He was at West Ham as a child (Under 10) and has been 'developed' in full by the English system.

Are Ireland producing players in sufficient numbers within Ireland that will be in demand at 16 or 17 to go and be part of the Belgian or Dutch systems?

jayus when you put it like that...it sounds awful

I saw this clip of a very annoyed Brian Kerr (as annoyed as I have seen him) normally he seems fairly laid back,

He is not happy that the FAI are leaving player development to the LOI clubs when they are struggling as it is it. And he didn't even put it that politely.

johnnyryan89

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

jayus when you put it like that...it sounds awful

I saw this clip of a very annoyed Brian Kerr (as annoyed as I have seen him) normally he seems fairly laid back,

He is not happy that the FAI are leaving player development to the LOI clubs when they are struggling as it is it. And he didn't even put it that politely.

Like he might as well come out and actually say let me and Redstrike come in and look after the development of Irish youngsters with the resources we could provide. It's probably the main reason why Niall Quinn has been sniffing around and got involved for a bit after JD was forced out.

At this stage that would be the only way we could afford to have a professional youth set for developing players.

~Rebel~

DM_7 wrote: »

Cullen is not just an anomaly for going to Belgium to play, he was not part of the Irish system. He was at West Ham as a child (Under 10) and has been 'developed' in full by the English system.

Are Ireland producing players in sufficient numbers within Ireland that will be in demand at 16 or 17 to go and be part of the Belgian or Dutch systems?

What I'm hoping, is that up to now mainland European clubs may not have put much resources into trying to grab Irish kids at that age, since the UK market had such a dominant stranglehold. And that with the UK out of the picture now, they'll put a lot more effort into coming over to see what young talent is available.

Obviously I'd much prefer if we just trained them up ourselves, but with that not looking like it's going to improve any time soon, Europe taking more of a interest in us might be a possibility.

topmanamillion

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

jayus when you put it like that...it sounds awful

I saw this clip of a very annoyed Brian Kerr (as annoyed as I have seen him) normally he seems fairly laid back,

He is not happy that the FAI are leaving player development to the LOI clubs when they are struggling as it is it. And he didn't even put it that politely.

There is good work being done at LOI youth level but Kerr`s correct in that the resources aren`t there to develop a steady flow of elite players/Irish internationals.

The LOI underage structure should be feeding into an overall structure, not the stand alone thing it is now. That means regional and national academies as centers of excellence with top coaches and facilities.

I`d be a big fan of the LOI but I'd worry that a mistake is being made now in terms of giving LOI clubs complete control of youth development at elite national level.

The cost of attaining coaching badges in this country is prohibitive. The cost of a Pro licence is €7,550. In Germany it`s €1,550.
We have the same amount of B licence holders (the gold standard at youth level) as Iceland - 800 despite being a bigger country.
To put it in context if we had proportionately the same amount as them, we`d have around 14,000 coaches.

We`re now in a system which has stagnated and the conveyer belt has stalled. The structures are completely wrong and there`s been a complete neglect of the game at all levels.

We`ll have the odd Bazunu, Parrott or Kevin Zefi that we hope will come good.
But in terms of consistently producing talented players on this island that will lead to a strong international side, we`re light years off that

DM_7

~Rebel~ wrote: »

What I'm hoping, is that up to now mainland European clubs may not have put much resources into trying to grab Irish kids at that age, since the UK market had such a dominant stranglehold. And that with the UK out of the picture now, they'll put a lot more effort into coming over to see what young talent is available.

Obviously I'd much prefer if we just trained them up ourselves, but with that not looking like it's going to improve any time soon, Europe taking more of a interest in us might be a possibility.

I think the best young lads will get scouted, get trials and opportunities. I am wondering about the volume of players Ireland produce having worked on the skills at a young age that players will get through. So few young players make it for such a variety of reasons having low numbers ready for those moves will compound the problem.

In England they overhauled their system to the point other countries are looking to get their young players. If Ireland's young players were of the quality they need to be would they not already be in demand?

Saw this earlier, from 2008 after England did not get to Euro 2008.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/7137071.stm

"Unless you change your whole approach to football, nothing will get better."

Carlos Alberto, a man who once scored a goal so exquisitely-crafted it could have been made in heaven, is not in the habit of mincing his words.

His finest moment - the sublime last goal in Brazil's 4-1 thumping of Italy in the 1970 World Cup final - means he knows how to succeed at the highest level and what it takes to get there.

The shambolic, failed attempt to reach Euro 2008 that ended with the humiliation of a 3-2 defeat by Croatia at Wembley was followed by the oft-repeated criticisms directed at the English game - namely a lack of technique.

It comes as no surprise then, that it takes Carlos Alberto only 19 seconds into our interview to mention the word that seems to be casting a shadow over the English game once more.

"The most important thing that can happen to English players is that they improve their technique," the 63-year-old tells BBC Sport.

"Technical skills like dribbling, good movement, the ability to pick a pass are key to breaking teams down, but you just don't see it when England play, their style is always the same.

"They never changed, they never improvised and they never improved. They put the high ball into the area and try to head it in, but they need to focus on more technical skills.

"I also have the feeling that the England players need to change their mentality, the spirit with which they play football.

"Sometimes they play as if they do not feel the game. I hope they understand these things and try to change because every other country changed a long time ago."

Sir Trevor Brooking, the director of development at the Football Association, believes England lags behind because the players are not learning these technical skills early enough.

"We need to start earlier," Brooking told BBC Sport. "Anybody emerging from the 5-11 age group has to be comfortable on the ball.

"Can you get this ball under control? Can you kill it instantly? Have you got the know-how to make decisions? Do you know how to use it and select the right pass?

"Now if you can't do all that when you get to 11-a-side situations in the 11-16s, you're going to struggle desperately. You won't be able to cope if that basic stuff isn't there."

We want to take the intensity out of it, especially in the younger age groups," said Brooking. "So we do more individual ball work and concentrate on technique.

"With the younger groups the philosophy is about fun and just letting youngsters play, we have to take away the pressure of results.

"There are one or two pilot schemes where we've scrapped the leagues for under-nines - why are we putting them under the pressure of getting results?

"We're not allowing them to express themselves and it takes the fun out of it because of all the pressure from the sidelines.

"So the adults have to sign a code of conduct and are roped off in the corner. There is no hollering at their children, just someone in charge who supports them and makes a few little comments.

"We're trying to give them a lot of small-sided playing time, getting them playing so they get as much contact time as possible."

Brooking has identified an English shortage of attacking full-backs
Brooking argues that one of the major problems in England is a lack of defenders who can start attacks in the manner that right-back Carlos Alberto did so successfully in his 53 games for Brazil.

"I don't think we have enough defenders who are comfortable on the ball in attacking areas - creativity is a worry," continued Brooking.

"A lot of international sides see that now as a way of getting width and getting in behind defences but we don't have the depth, that is our challenge.

"Full-back is a clear problem - we have had one or two jumping three age groups in the development teams because of a lack of depth and that could be worrying in a few years' time."

9 years later they were winning the under-20 World Cup (undefeated), the under-19 European Championships and reaching the final and seminal of the under-17s and under-21s. Then in 2018 reaching the semi final of the senior world cup for the first time since 1990.

I know a lot of the above is happening now in Ireland with kids but is the structure as they get into their teens has been put in place to support continued progression?

the kelt

briany wrote: »

The average life expectancy in Ireland is around 80 years old. That's only 20 World Cups. For some, Ireland getting to big tournaments isn't just kind of important - it's existential. We'd like to see Ireland get a few more moments in the footballing sun before we're all dead. That's what makes a bleak outlook on the medium to long-term future of the team all the more depressing, such as your friend expressed.

And then you have cheerleaders like John Duggan asking if we really want to go to major tournaments, is it that big a deal!

Pawwed Rig

the kelt wrote: »

And then you have cheerleaders like John Duggan asking if we really want to go to major tournaments, is it that big a deal!

Never heard of him. Sounds like I didn't miss much