Republic of Ireland Team Talk/News/Rumours 2020/2021 - see Mod Note in OP [18/11/20]

eire4

topmanamillion wrote: »

There is good work being done at LOI youth level but Kerr`s correct in that the resources aren`t there to develop a steady flow of elite players/Irish internationals.

The LOI underage structure should be feeding into an overall structure, not the stand alone thing it is now. That means regional and national academies as centers of excellence with top coaches and facilities.

I`d be a big fan of the LOI but I'd worry that a mistake is being made now in terms of giving LOI clubs complete control of youth development at elite national level.

The cost of attaining coaching badges in this country is prohibitive. The cost of a Pro licence is €7,550. In Germany it`s €1,550.
We have the same amount of B licence holders (the gold standard at youth level) as Iceland - 800 despite being a bigger country.
To put it in context if we had proportionately the same amount as them, we`d have around 14,000 coaches.

We`re now in a system which has stagnated and the conveyer belt has stalled. The structures are completely wrong and there`s been a complete neglect of the game at all levels.

We`ll have the odd Bazunu, Parrott or Kevin Zefi that we hope will come good.
But in terms of consistently producing talented players on this island that will lead to a strong international side, we`re light years off that

Have to agree with what your saying there. There is some promising work being done in the LOI now but it is light years away from where it needs to be overall and your comments on the quality of coaching at a top level available is so pertinent as well as having a proper academy pyramid to feed into so we can have a consistent stream of players capable of playing and succeeding at the top level in the game. Those structures are simply not in place right now.

pjohnson

Oat23 wrote: »

Almost choked reading this. LOI fans supporting LOI clubs are responsible for the collapse of football in this country? We've been the ones shouting for change longer than anyone as we've been seeing the rot with our own eyes every week. We are the ones who have been getting fined since the 00s for calling Delaney out at club matches while the rest of you are busy watching Sky Sports down the pub.

Most of the damage could have been avoided if more Irish football fans had been paying attention to football in this country. Stuff like the tennis ball protest came a decade too late.

Yeah the fact some LOI fans keep going on about "barstoolers" while looking down on supporters of English clubs doesnt help attract new fans. I thought this had stopped in recent years but obviously not.

Francie Barrett

DM_7 wrote: »

Are Ireland producing players in sufficient numbers within Ireland that will be in demand at 16 or 17 to go and be part of the Belgian or Dutch systems?

Just had a look at the development teams for the two league champions in Belgium and Holland (Club Brugge and Ajax).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Club_NXT
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jong_Ajax

Vast, vast majority of the players are Belgian or Dutch. My guess is that they don't have the financial resources to have scouting networks to scan other countries for 16/17 year olds.

I would say if people want Irish kids going abroad, realistically they're only going to be spotted by the big Italian/Spanish/German football factories like Barcelona or Inter. They're the only ones with scouting networks so extensive and the financial means to support their huge underage set-ups.

ShamoBuc

A little off topic, not sure if it was mentioned, but Finding Jack Charlton was on Virgin Media last last.

It is on BBC 2 tonight at 9.

Quite possible to cut a few onions whilst watching, if you've not seen it, the Paul McGrath smile moment....

TheCitizen

Richard Dunne on Newstalk there now. I agree with what he says. Pragmatism is needed.

With Stephen Kenny unfortunately I think his head is spinning and it’s a major struggle that he’s in. I don’t see him turning this around. I don’t see the argument for giving him the rest of the campaign. I think things will only get worse.

It looks like he will be given the rest of the campaign though, so I can only hope I’m wrong.

TheCitizen

ShamoBuc wrote: »

A little off topic, not sure if it was mentioned, but Finding Jack Charlton was on Virgin Media last last.

It is on BBC 2 tonight at 9.

Quite possible to cut a few onions whilst watching, if you've not seen it, the Paul McGrath smile moment....

Seen it last night. Very good doc.

Oat23

pjohnson wrote: »

Yeah the fact some LOI fans keep going on about "barstoolers" while looking down on supporters of English clubs doesnt help attract new fans. I thought this had stopped in recent years but obviously not.

When someone tries to blame LOI fans for the state Irish football is in all niceties go out the window. F**k them. It was a a ridiculous post.

FWIW I have no interest in trying to attract new fans. It doesn't work. Most people are set in their ways and made their mind up years ago.

pjohnson

Oat23 wrote: »

When someone tries to blame LOI fans for the state Irish football is in all niceties go out the window. F**k them. It was a a ridiculous post.

FWIW I have no interest in trying to attract new fans. It doesn't work. Most people are set in their ways and made their mind up years ago.

Yep. That'll improve and grow the league for sure, bold strategy.

Oat23

pjohnson wrote: »

Yep. That'll improve and grow the league for sure, bold strategy.

"You know I would attend some LOI games but nobody on boards.ie has ever shown interest in convincing me to to go."

- Nobody, ever.

Amirani

pjohnson wrote: »

Yep. That'll improve and grow the league for sure, bold strategy.

Do you feel some sort of obligation to attract fans for whatever club it is you support?

I suspect not. Most football fans don't feel they have some responsibility to "improve and grow" their club or their league. Not sure why you'd expect LOI fans to.

pjohnson

Amirani wrote: »

Do you feel some sort of obligation to attract fans for whatever club it is you support?

I suspect not. Most football fans don't feel they have some responsibility to "improve and grow" their club or their league. Not sure why you'd expect LOI fans to.

Do fans not buy merchandise/tickets/lotto etc? More fans = more revenue. I didnt know LOI clubs had suddenly become so flush they dont need extra money that extra fans would bring in. No wonder so many clubs have financial issues with the attitude of new fans not welcome :pac:

Amirani

pjohnson wrote: »

Do fans not buy merchandise/tickets/lotto etc? More fans = more revenue. I didnt know LOI clubs had suddenly become so flush they dont need extra money that extra fans would bring in. No wonder so many clubs have financial issues with the attitude of new fans not welcome :pac:

You're not getting the point. Do you spend time trying to attract random people on the internet to follow your club? Yes or no.

Oat23

Amirani wrote: »

Do you feel some sort of obligation to attract fans for whatever club it is you support?

I suspect not. Most football fans don't feel they have some responsibility to "improve and grow" their club or their league. Not sure why you'd expect LOI fans to.

They don't actually expect it. It's a common deflection tactic I've seen used for the entirety of the 15+ years I've discussed football on internet forums.

Saying things like "Maybe more of us would go if we felt more welcomed" when anyone says anything they perceive as a dig is their justification for not going. The simple truth is that they have no intention or desire to ever support the national league and that is fine. Just don't post bullsh*t on the internet claiming otherwise.

pjohnson

Oat23 wrote: »

They don't actually expect it. It's a common deflection tactic I've seen used for the entirety of the 15+ years I've discussed football on internet forums.

Saying things like "Maybe more of us would go if we were more welcomed" when anyone says anything they perceive as a dig is their justification for not going. The simple truth is the have no intention or desire to ever support the national league and that is fine. Just don't post bullsh*t on the internet claiming otherwise.

Is it just Galway United fans or fans of all First Division clubs that you refer to?

Maybe its a Sligo thing not to want new fans. I know Galway does and the club actively tries to attract new people.

super_furry

Remember Ruud Doktor? Whatever happened to him?

johnnyryan89

super_furry wrote: »

Remember Ruud Doktor? Whatever happened to him?

Still there. Signed a new two year contract in 2020.

topmanamillion

super_furry wrote: »

Remember Ruud Doktor? Whatever happened to him?

Still in the background. He's a high earner too, just behind Stephen Kenny.

He's an ideas man and to be fair most of his ideas have been good ones. He was key in the roll out of the LOI underage league's.

But then he hit a brick wall when he pushed for reform of the junior game.

He wanted summer football - junior clubs objected
He said it was daft a country our size has 32 junior league's in 26 counties. He proposed 10 - junior clubs objected

His over all thinking coming from the Dutch system is less is more. Less clubs palying in condensed league's means better facilities and leads to bigger clubs operating in a more cohesive system.
Unfortunately, the game here is so parochial and entrenched ballygobackwards village fc are never going to go for that kind of thing.

If someone with even a passing interest in football were to start with a blank canvas and design Irish football structures, they wouldn't in a million years end up with the shambles we have now. But yet we're stuck with it because that's the way it's always been.

The Golden Miller

I think Kenny is the only man for the job. If this campaign is a complete disaster, I'd go as so far to say he should be given a go at another campaign too. He started off with combination of bad luck and the media on his back, expecting him to prove himself straight away. When it doesn't go right, the pressure and bad luck will just compound, like with anything in life.

I think if given time, he'll do a very good job and make a talent-less squad very competitive. If he was to get the sack it will be a complete disaster for the national team. He done it with Dundalk and underage Ireland teams, and he'll get it right with the senior team if given time.

I just don't understand the expectancy in this country from fans, nor the media in relation to the nation team, both of whom, in the main, neglect the domestic league themselves, yet are first to complain when it doesn't go right

Did you smash it

topmanamillion wrote: »

He said it was daft a country our size has 32 junior league's in 26 counties. He proposed 10 - junior clubs objected
.

To make a point on that, the GAA intercounty system is 32 teams for the country, 10 with amalgamated counties would make more sense but most GAA fans regard doing away with intercounty as sacrilege.

DM_7

pjohnson wrote: »

Yep. That'll improve and grow the league for sure, bold strategy.

The picking certain parts of posts to argue with might be misplaced here. The original post you picked on included the 'barb' of barstooler but the full post was in direct response to the below.

Augme wrote: »

It was actually the LOI type of fans who went to games who have out us in this position more than any other type of fan tbf.

It was a relatively restrained comment and only a small part of the response from a person interested in LOI/LOI teams.

Personally I have yet to figure out how - LOI type of fans who went to games - are the main source of problems in the national team. Any ideas?

LuckyLloyd

topmanamillion wrote: »

Still in the background. He's a high earner too, just behind Stephen Kenny.

He's an ideas man and to be fair most of his ideas have been good ones. He was key in the roll out of the LOI underage league's.

But then he hit a brick wall when he pushed for reform of the junior game.

He wanted summer football - junior clubs objected
He said it was daft a country our size has 32 junior league's in 26 counties. He proposed 10 - junior clubs objected

His over all thinking coming from the Dutch system is less is more. Less clubs palying in condensed league's means better facilities and leads to bigger clubs operating in a more cohesive system.
Unfortunately, the game here is so parochial and entrenched ballygobackwards village fc are never going to go for that kind of thing.

If someone with even a passing interest in football were to start with a blank canvas and design Irish football structures, they wouldn't in a million years end up with the shambles we have now. But yet we're stuck with it because that's the way it's always been.

It’s the same with the LOI, never going to be a runner in its current format. Would need to be reformed with 8 - 10 clubs regionally dispersed

tastyt

We 100% need a structural change in so many ways , to actually create a ladder from top to bottom , a natural pathway for players


The funny thing is that we could come up with the most incredible format for football in this but none of it can ever happen without money , and **** loads of it . Facilities = money , top coaches = money , educational development = money , full time professional players = money , marketing teams = money , schoolboy academies = money .

The whole football industry , of which we have none , is awash with millions and billions of money and they are already light years ahead of us

And we have **** all . Who in their right mind is going to invest the vast millions needed to make an industry out of our game in this country ?

Not RTE , they don’t give a **** , and not corporate Ireland either because they are knee deep in GAA and Rugby with players living and playing locally and able to turn up at their events .

Where will the money come from ?

tastyt

And btw it’s nothing short of extortion and a disgrace at the cost of getting your coaching badges in this country . Absolute money racket turning good football people off it , including many ex loi players

Did you smash it

tastyt wrote: »

Where will the money come from ?

It won’t more than likely. Irish football probably will never going to be an actual viable thriving business. We’ll have a decent team in a few years maybe but it’ll be by fluke rather than design.

eire4

tastyt wrote: »

And btw it’s nothing short of extortion and a disgrace at the cost of getting your coaching badges in this country . Absolute money racket turning good football people off it , including many ex loi players

No question the costs are way over the top and hurting the ability to bring through enough quality coaches.

johnnyryan89

tastyt wrote: »

Where will the money come from ?

Red Strike.

Might as well give Quinn and his mates the keys to Irish football and let them develop players. God knows it's the only way we'll actually get a full time football academy for the elite youth players.

Captain Havoc

Banjaxed82 wrote: »

Just regarding the European option. Ok, culture can take a bit of time to get use to, but it's not outer Mongolia. Belgium, Netherlands are hardly going to create culture shock in a young lad.

Also, regarding the language, I've watched a lot of Anderlecht given Cullen's connection, and Vincent Kompany spends the majority if not all the game communicating in English. I think the language aspect is probably over cooked. When you have players from different countries in the team, you'll probably find that English is the default language, given how well it's spoken from an early age in the these countries/Scandinavia, etc

I think we just need a critical mass of players opting for countries besides England in order for it to catch fire. One cracking player to emerge will instill confidence in next generation to take similar path.

The language barrier is often cited as a reason for not joining a team on the mainland, but it really shouldn't be. Most people will pick up the language and I think if these players take a course while they are over there, give it a year, and they'll be fluent(ish). Within a very short period, a few weeks maybe, they'll have basic commands. I've done it twice for work and got by, even playing football too. I actually think the main barrier to going over there is the lack of clubs looking at Irish players, if they're in England, they're probably on decent wedge and if they are here, they're probably going to get noticed in England first by way of the grapevine.

Captain Havoc

pjohnson wrote: »

Yeah the fact some LOI fans keep going on about "barstoolers" while looking down on supporters of English clubs doesnt help attract new fans. I thought this had stopped in recent years but obviously not.

Most LOI fans don't look down on EPL supporters as we also follow English clubs. I think the main gripe is that the game here needs support. If everyone who goes to watch the national team went to watch an LOI game on the weekend, we'd have a better league. By having better teams, it gives local players the opportunity to earn a living here, the extra injection of cash could be enough to pay a player to stay in Ireland instead of going to League 1 or 2 in England. If the quality of the league improved, it would hopefully be a better place to find fringe players for the national team as they would be used to operating at a higher level. If things got really good, we could be welcoming larger teams like Liverpool here in the group stages of the Champions League. Instead, this investment is going into English teams by Irish fans. I'm not completely unrealistic, I don't ever see the LOI being anything better than mid-championship level but even that could be enough to see teams in the CL ever other season.

johnnyryan89

snotboogie wrote: »

It doesn't need to be overcome. Plenty of small European countries have a population obsessed with one of the bigger European leagues and still put together a decent domestic product for example; Scotland, Norway, Denmark, Cyprus, Austria.

If people cared about soccer in Ireland, the number one priority should be the domestic league. Having a competitive domestic league with big fan bases, local rivalries, runs in the Uefa league and the odd trip to the champions league group stage would be a million times more rewarding than even the most optimistic possible expectations for the national team. Its also far more achievable. We seem more focused on the lottery merry go round of praying for a deep run in a tournament every 10 years.

The FAI are basically an events company who put on 2 or 3 big shows in Dublin every year. Anything else, including youth development and the LOI is just a nuisance sideshow to secure government and UEFA funding.

Saw this post in Afters Hours in a thread titled 'Ireland is a pretend football country', which was started back in January and not a reaction thread from Wednesday nights game.

That last paragraph literally sums up Irish football to a ****ing tee. We are a pretend football country' run by a glorified events company.

Mantis Toboggan

Wouldn't be surprised in qatar turn us over tonight.

Mervyn Skidmore

The Golden Miller wrote: »

I think Kenny is the only man for the job. If this campaign is a complete disaster, I'd go as so far to say he should be given a go at another campaign too. He started off with combination of bad luck and the media on his back, expecting him to prove himself straight away. When it doesn't go right, the pressure and bad luck will just compound, like with anything in life.

I think if given time, he'll do a very good job and make a talent-less squad very competitive. If he was to get the sack it will be a complete disaster for the national team. He done it with Dundalk and underage Ireland teams, and he'll get it right with the senior team if given time.

I just don't understand the expectancy in this country from fans, nor the media in relation to the nation team, both of whom, in the main, neglect the domestic league themselves, yet are first to complain when it doesn't go right

I agree with this. The only thing that worried me was his complete lack of tactical change as the luxembourg game wore on. I know he's sticking to a philosophy and a way forward but when it wasn't working, I think around the 70 minute mark he should have tried the long ball tactic for maybe 10 mins and completely bombarded the central defenders and goalkeeper to test them out.

The lack of intensity also worries me. The so-called smaller teams don't chase a game well when behind, I think the tactic should've been to put extreme pressure on in the first 15 mins, try to get the early goal and the game would probably have been won.

I wish Kenny luck and hope he can turn it around. He's come in for a lot of very unfair criticism so far.

LuckyLloyd

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Wouldn't be surprised in qatar turn us over tonight.

There's no reason to think that imo.

Did you smash it

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

There's no reason to think that imo.

Qatar have a nasty habit of scoring in most of their matches. In their last 14 games they’ve only failed to score once.

Oat23

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

There's no reason to think that imo.

They're the current Asian champions and like Luxembourg they have a coach who has been working with the players for years. They have a really settled side who work well together.

Also, they have been relaxing and training in Hungary for the past few weeks where they've already beaten Luxembourg and Azerbaijan.

People will take the p*ss out of us if we lose but it wouldn't be surprising. They are a decent side, but like with Luxembourg you hear the name 'Qatar' and you write them off.

johnnyryan89

Oat23 wrote: »

They're the current Asian champions and like Luxembourg they have a coach who has been working with the players for years. They have a really settled side who work well together.

Also, they have been relaxing and training in Hungary for the past few weeks where they've already beaten Luxembourg and Azerbaijan.

People will take the p*ss out of us if we lose but it wouldn't be surprising. They are a decent side, but like with Luxembourg you hear the name 'Qatar' and you write them off.

Does anyone even care about the game too. Like I can't imagine the Ireland team even care about a stupid friendly after playing two competitive games, especially one that was meant to be played in Ireland but now they must travel to Hungary to play against a team whose using these games as a warm up and PR before the WC.

I'd go 1-1 for tonights results.

LuckyLloyd

Oat23 wrote: »

They're the current Asian champions and like Luxembourg they have a coach who has been working with the players for years. They have a really settled side who work well together.

Also, they have been relaxing and training in Hungary for the past few weeks where they've already beaten Luxembourg and Azerbaijan.

People will take the p*ss out of us if we lose but it wouldn't be surprising. They are a decent side, but like with Luxembourg you hear the name 'Qatar' and you write them off.

So Kenny just gets a pass then? Doesn't matter how these games go? He has no responsibility at all to maintain our ranking and co efficient?

Did you smash it

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

So Kenny just gets a pass then? Doesn't matter how these games go? He has no responsibility at all to maintain our ranking and co efficient?

Sure he didn’t say that at all

Oat23

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

So Kenny just gets a pass then? Doesn't matter how these games go? He has no responsibility at all to maintain our ranking and co efficient?

What are you talking about? I just said a loss wouldn't be surprising because they are a decent team. They're ranked about 15 spots below us and have moved up 50+ spots in the past 5 years.

Brock Turnpike

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

There's no reason to think that imo.

Why not? Genuine question btw.

Qatar have been improving for years, as unwelcome as their methods may be. Reigning Asian Cup champions too. Used to watch a lot of them when I was living in Australia as they were rivals in the Asian Cup and World Cup Qualifying.

johnnyryan89

Brock Turnpike wrote: »

Why not? Genuine question btw.

Qatar have been improving for years, as unwelcome as their methods may be. Reigning Asian Cup champions too. Used to watch a lot of them when I was living in Australia as they were rivals in the Asian Cup and World Cup Qualifying.

Because some people don't want to accept that these teams are now closer to our level.

TheCitizen

Captain Havoc wrote: »

The language barrier is often cited as a reason for not joining a team on the mainland, but it really shouldn't be. Most people will pick up the language and I think if these players take a course while they are over there, give it a year, and they'll be fluent(ish). Within a very short period, a few weeks maybe, they'll have basic commands. I've done it twice for work and got by, even playing football too. I actually think the main barrier to going over there is the lack of clubs looking at Irish players, if they're in England, they're probably on decent wedge and if they are here, they're probably going to get noticed in England first by way of the grapevine.

Language barrier isn’t a problem at all. They all speak English especially in Northern European countries.

Did you smash it

TheCitizen wrote: »

Language barrier isn’t a problem at all. They all speak English especially in Northern European countries.

Living in a country where many people speak English is different to living in a country where English is the main language spoken.

TheCitizen

Mervyn Skidmore wrote: »

I agree with this. The only thing that worried me was his complete lack of tactical change as the luxembourg game wore on. I know he's sticking to a philosophy and a way forward but when it wasn't working, I think around the 70 minute mark he should have tried the long ball tactic for maybe 10 mins and completely bombarded the central defenders and goalkeeper to test them out.

The lack of intensity also worries me. The so-called smaller teams don't chase a game well when behind, I think the tactic should've been to put extreme pressure on in the first 15 mins, try to get the early goal and the game would probably have been won.

I wish Kenny luck and hope he can turn it around. He's come in for a lot of very unfair criticism so far.

Unfair criticism? I don’t think so. I know they’re going to give him this campaign at least so I hope he starts getting wins, I don’t think he can complain about any criticism, the opposite the case if anything.

TheCitizen

Did you smash it wrote: »

Living in a country where many people speak English is different to living in a country where English is the main language spoken.

I lived in Holland, didn’t pick up the language, used some Dutch phrases when I could, but there was no problem working and living there without the language

Francie Barrett

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

So Kenny just gets a pass then? Doesn't matter how these games go? He has no responsibility at all to maintain our ranking and co efficient?

You just don't get it.

Results only mattered when it was Trap/MON/McCarthy who were in charge. The days of short-term thinking are out, we have to be more strategic.

The 2024 World Cup qualification campaign should be written off because there's a long-term strategy vision in place that's going to take time to come to fruition.

The 2026 Euro qualification campaign should also be written off because by then our ranking will be in the toilet, so more time is needed to build it back up.

2028 World Cup qualification should be written off because it's too hard.

It's not going to be until the 2030 Euro qualification that Kenny can actually be judged on.

Did you smash it

TheCitizen wrote: »

I lived in Holland, didn’t pick up the language, used some Dutch phrases when I could, but there was no problem working and living there without the language

I live in a similar situation. It’s definitely a disadvantage to not live in a primarily English speaking country, it just makes life a little harder.

Banjaxed82

Oat23 wrote: »

What are you talking about? I just said a loss wouldn't be surprising because they are a decent team. They're ranked about 15 spots below us and have moved up 50+ spots in the past 5 years.

You basically responded with an answer he couldn't respond to. You were correct in your summary of Qatar and tonight's match. Why can't people take it on the chin? I'm wrong at least 60% of the time.

Francie Barrett

Rumour on the Twitter machine suggests that Conor Coventry will start against Qatar.

Did you smash it

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Rumour on the Twitter machine suggest that Conor Coventry will start against Qatar.

Fair enough although he has no real experience. McCarthy is finished and Josh cullen is decent but will get targeted being only 5 ft 9. We don’t really have any other holding mids.

plibige

I'd say personally Kenny should be given until the end of this campaign anyway. A couple of reasons.

1) its not likely we are going to qualify or even make the playoffs so no point spending money we don't have replacing Kenny when there is no possible results.

2) the metaphorical "cake" isn't even half baked yet. Too many injuries and bad timing. But by the end of this campaign we should have a good taste of what's what.

3) and be honest with ourselves, we were all fed up of hoof ball. Its a nice break from it. Okay if its not working by the time we start qualifying for euro 2024 then fair enough

I'm not against sacking a manager (including Kenny) if its the right situation. But I don't think sacking Kenny solves any of our problem.

Its like sacking a plasterer because there is a structural problem with the wall that caused a crack. We might be able to find a plasterer that can cover the crack (maybe) but let's be honest, that wall we called the football structure of Ireland is due to collapse