Republic of Ireland Team Talk/News/Rumours 2020/2021 - see Mod Note in OP [18/11/20]

breezy1985

noodler wrote: »

Why is the lack of academy of affecting Kenny's results alone?

The last four/managers (bar maybe Stan) had us being competitive.

Mick's first run and Traps run were both built of the back of Irelands greatest ever underage team and help prove the idea that you need to build up from underage and the lack of that long-term thinking is why we are crap now no matter who the manager is. We were not competitive for the later MON or 2nd Mick teams either

johnnyryan89

athlone99 wrote: »

Ok should Wales stop doing what they are doing? Some of their young internationals nearly have more caps than club appearances.

Actually you are right which is exactly why we are where we are. English clubs are no longer interested in Irish player like they use to. Yes some of that comes down to the players and they need the help too.

So again i'll ask, if the manager should not be capping players and developing some players where do the new players come from?

Our current crop of 25-30 years are mainly a lost generation. They were not brought through when they were younger and are now off in the wilderness but who knows where they might have been if they has been capped early and gotten some game time.

2 of the main players - Matt Doherty (19 caps with most of them actually under SK) and John Egan (13 caps) they should all have over 30 caps already.

The B team needs to be brought back, and was last used by Trap to play a game against Nottingham Forest. MON often named squads that had 40 players in it. You name a B squad every now and then you could take the lads that don't make the squad to train and possibly play a game against a club team in England. Even allows you to call up more lads from the LOI who are overage for the U21s to have a better look at them and see how they get on training and playing.

pjohnson

Stan had the right idea giving Joe O'Cearruill, Joe Lapira and Stephen O'Halloran games during that American tour. It aided their development and helped the National Team so much.

johnnyryan89

square ball wrote: »

We have been 'getting away' with having no structures in place for the last twenty years because our players were in demand at top clubs in the UK. We sent over enough young lads that a few would make it. We also padded out our squads with British born players under the parent/grandparent rule.

And when they do do something positive it normally only lasts about 12 months and they scrap it.

https://www.fai.ie/ireland/news/republic-of-ireland-future-developers-squad-announced

athlone99

johnnyryan89 wrote: »

The B team needs to be brought back, and was last used by Trap to play a game against Nottingham Forest. MON often named squads that had 40 players in it. You name a B squad every now and then you could take the lads that don't make the squad to train and possibly play a game against a club team in England. Even allows you to call up more lads from the LOI who are overage for the U21s to have a better look at them and see how they get on training and playing.

Thats a good point, Even having extended squads but keep some younger players in the camp rather than match day squads just to get the experience of being around the squad and what is expected of them if they are called up.

breezy1985

athlone99 wrote: »

Thats a good point, Even having extended squads but keep some younger players in the camp rather than match day squads just to get the experience of being around the squad and what is expected of them if they are called up.

The worry is that for a lot of games the clubs wouldn't allow their players to hang about

athlone99

pjohnson wrote: »

Stan had the right idea giving Joe O'Cearruill, Joe Lapira and Stephen O'Halloran games during that American tour. It aided their development and helped the National Team so much.

Stephen O'Halloran was highly rated at Villa, 2 ACL injuries ruined his chances.

Joe O'Cearruill was at Arsenal when he got his caps, fell away.

Joe Lapira was utter nonsense getting a cap.

Again all got 1 or 2 caps and were disgarded after that. Thats pointless, you need to bring in young players and cap them regularly and give them the experience. Maybe they will come good maybe they wont.

athlone99

breezy1985 wrote: »

The worry is that for a lot of games the clubs wouldn't allow their players to hang about

Ya probably. But id be more thinking some of the younger players playing with the 21s, if they could be kept around the senior squad and in camp when the main squad is off playing games.

Mantis Toboggan

johnnyryan89 wrote: »

And when they do do something positive it normally only lasts about 12 months and they scrap it.

https://www.fai.ie/ireland/news/republic-of-ireland-future-developers-squad-announced

Any of those lads make it at the top after all that development work?

athlone99

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Any of those lads make it at the top after all that development work?

Are you asking that to reinforce your point?

It seems to me you would rather see the senior team fail with old, fairly poor, past their best players than give young players who want to play and learn.

pjohnson

athlone99 wrote: »

Stephen O'Halloran was highly rated at Villa, 2 ACL injuries ruined his chances.

Joe O'Cearruill was at Arsenal when he got his caps, fell away.

Joe Lapira was utter nonsense getting a cap.

Again all got 1 or 2 caps and were disgarded after that. Thats pointless, you need to bring in young players and cap them regularly and give them the experience. Maybe they will come good maybe they wont.

So if O'Halloran, O'Cearruill and Lapira regularly got caps for Ireland their careers woulda gone better :pac:

athlone99

pjohnson wrote: »

So if O'Halloran, O'Cearruill and Lapira regularly got caps for Ireland their careers woulda gone better :pac:

Who knows its all hypothetical. International caps generally improves a players value and reputation.

The other alternative is lets never try any young players anymore and when the current capped players are all too old we'll just give up international football.

Mantis Toboggan

athlone99 wrote: »

Who knows its all hypothetical. International caps generally improves a players value and reputation.

The other alternative is lets never try any young players anymore and when the current capped players are all too old we'll just give up international football.

Maybe we should just let the players earn the right to win caps by performing at club level first before we start introducing young players who will never be good enough.

Mantis Toboggan

Kenny's remit is to pick the best players available, get them performing at their best, win matches and try qualify for major tournaments.

Whether they're 20 or 30 is irrelevant. His job isn't to develop players leave that to the club managers who see them every day. It's a results business and that's what he'll be judged on.

Scoundrel

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Kenny's remit is to pick the best players available, get them performing at their best, win matches and try qualify for major tournaments.

Whether they're 20 or 30 is irrelevant. His job isn't to develop players leave that to the club managers who see them every day. It's a results business and that's what he'll be judged on.

He is picking the best players available who is available that he is not picking? Surely the whole point of giving the U21 manager the job is to develop those players who did well for him in the U21s? Surely that is better than keeping it tight and hoping our giant centre half might win a header

breezy1985

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Kenny's remit is to pick the best players available, get them performing at their best, win matches and try qualify for major tournaments.

Whether they're 20 or 30 is irrelevant. His job isn't to develop players leave that to the club managers who see them every day. It's a results business and that's what he'll be judged on.

And which amazing Irish players is he not picking that will turn things round for us right now

athlone99

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Maybe we should just let the players earn the right to win caps by performing at club level first before we start introducing young players who will never be good enough.

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Kenny's remit is to pick the best players available, get them performing at their best, win matches and try qualify for major tournaments.

Whether they're 20 or 30 is irrelevant. His job isn't to develop players leave that to the club managers who see them every day. It's a results business and that's what he'll be judged on.

If that is the case we would have a mainly home based team. Very few of our squad are nailed on starters at their clubs.

So again i'll ask you, name the young players in the current squad who you deem not good enough to play in the team? Who in the current squad has not earned the right to get a game?

Yes its a results based business but players have to have time to develop and learn a system and a style of play. John Egan played in a back 3 for the last 2 years, are you saying because SK plays a back 4 he should not e given the time to play and learn that formation at international level?

All managers/coaches are responsible for developing players.

athlone99

breezy1985 wrote: »

And which amazing Irish players is he not picking that will turn things round for us right now

Scoundrel wrote: »

He is picking the best players available who is available that he is not picking? Surely the whole point of giving the U21 manager the job is to develop those players who did well for him in the U21s? Surely that is better than keeping it tight and hoping our giant centre half might win a header

I've asked that question 2/3 times now and he refuses to answer it.

Mantis Toboggan

breezy1985 wrote: »

And which amazing Irish players is he not picking that will turn things round for us right now

It's been mentioned that we should be capping young players who aren't good enough in the hope that they suddenly improve, the national team isn't a developmental team, it doesn't work that way.

noodler

breezy1985 wrote: »

Mick's first run and Traps run were both built of the back of Irelands greatest ever underage team and help prove the idea that you need to build up from underage and the lack of that long-term thinking is why we are crap now no matter who the manager is. We were not competitive for the later MON or 2nd Mick teams either

Eh, we qualified for a euros under MON and we were one goal away from automatic qualification in the last game with Denmark under Mick.

noodler

What is the obsession with blooding youngsters who aren't making it at senior level for their clubs?

It's a bit backwards tbh.

athlone99

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

It's been mentioned that we should be capping young players who aren't good enough in the hope that they suddenly improve, the national team isn't a developmental team, it doesn't work that way.

No it hasn't, what i and a number of others have said is we would rather see Troy Parrot/Jason Knight etc playing games than some 30 year old who's way past his best. We are now capping young players who deserve their chance, they may well fall out of the game in 3 years time but they deserve to play and learn on the job.

noodler

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

It's been mentioned that we should be capping young players who aren't good enough in the hope that they suddenly improve, the national team isn't a developmental team, it doesn't work that way.

This, 100% this.

If there are youngsters playing regularly for their senior team then absolutely consider them as we have been tbh.

Fandymo

athlone99 wrote: »

Again he stated that Squads that MON/Mick and Trap had were better than they showed and should have done better and that they had the ability to play better football if they were encouraged to do so.

Its widely accepted that our current crop of players is the weakest in 40 years so its no surprise they are now struggling and at a low ebb.

He has the exact same players that Mick had in his second spell, bar McGoldrick. I don’t remember Mick going on an 11 game losing streak and needing the FAI to set up a friendly against Andorra to get his first win. He talked the talk, but can’t walk the walk. He’s miles out of his depth.,

athlone99

noodler wrote: »

This, 100% this.

If there are youngsters playing regularly for their senior team then absolutely consider them as we have been tbh.

Its done Wales no harm so far. Neco Williams has 12 senior caps for Wales and has 12 senior appearances for Liverpool (According to Wiki).

Wales have done this for the past few years and are reaping the rewards.

athlone99

Fandymo wrote: »

He has the exact same players that Mick had in his second spell, bar McGoldrick. I don’t remember Mick going on an 11 game losing streak and needing the FAI to set up a friendly against Andorra to get his first win. He talked the talk, but can’t walk the walk. He’s miles out of his depth.,

He has the same squad available to him on paper. But he hasnt been able to pick the same team with 4 days of each other yet. Most of the squad in the last 2 years have been injured or no longer first choice.

He should be doing better but as i've said for months i'm happy to give him time as he is finally trying to get rid of the dead wood out of the starting team.

breezy1985

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

It's been mentioned that we should be capping young players who aren't good enough in the hope that they suddenly improve, the national team isn't a developmental team, it doesn't work that way.

Try answering my question. Who would you pick instead that are better ?

Mantis Toboggan

athlone99 wrote: »

Its done Wales no harm so far. Neco Williams has 12 senior caps for Wales and has 12 senior appearances for Liverpool (According to Wiki).

Wales have done this for the past few years and are reaping the rewards.

27 appearances for Liverpool, if we had a 20 year old with 27 games played for any team in the top 4 he'd also be playing for us.

Unfortunately most of our 20 year olds are down in league one or two big difference.

The_Kew_Tour

Some posters are so over dramatic here.

I mentioned the lack of a National Academy earlier and some took my post to make it sound that I was saying we were one away from Winning a World Cup or something. Pure tripe.

Its gas that even the simple question can't even get answered and the moving of the goal posts is some achievement.

athlone99

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

27 appearances for Liverpool, if we had a 20 year old with 27 games played for any team in the top 4 he'd also be playing for us.

Unfortunately most of our 20 year olds are down in league one or two big difference.

Ok sorry, 12 league games and actually 25 games for liverpool according to their website.

But using your own logic he wouldnt be starting because hes not playing enough to start ahead of other players in the squad.

Mantis Toboggan

breezy1985 wrote: »

Try answering my question. Who would you pick instead that are better ?

Kenny needs to pick the best players available whether they're 18 or 30 it's irrelevant. Playing young players will not be an excuse for losing. There are no such thing as 5 or 10 year plans in management. I never once said there was better players he wasn't picking.

Francie Barrett

athlone99 wrote: »

Our current crop of 25-30 years are mainly a lost generation. They were not brought through when they were younger and are now off in the wilderness but who knows where they might have been if they has been capped early and gotten some game time.

Some people keep saying things like this, but it makes no sense. A player who's in "the wilderness" now would not have been transformed by a few training sessions and minutes with the senior team.

breezy1985

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Kenny needs to pick the best players available whether they're 18 or 30 it's irrelevant. Playing young players will not be an excuse for losing. There are no such thing as 5 or 10 year plans in management. I never once said there was better players he wasn't picking.

You said that but is he currently picking our best players?
And if not who are the players he should pick?

You appear unable to answer and are coming across as a grumpy chancer who doesn't have a clue

Fandymo

athlone99 wrote: »

He has the same squad available to him on paper. But he hasnt been able to pick the same team with 4 days of each other yet. Most of the squad in the last 2 years have been injured or no longer first choice.

He should be doing better but as i've said for months i'm happy to give him time as he is finally trying to get rid of the dead wood out of the starting team.

Mick, famously, never had to deal with injuries. If excuses were football results, we’d be like Brazil.

athlone99

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Some people keep saying things like this, but it makes no sense. A player who's in "the wilderness" now would not have been transformed by a few training sessions and minutes with the senior team.

My main point was we have little to no players in that age bracket now. Some of those players who didnt make it at the highest level but were highly rated when they were younger could have had better careers by being around the senior team.

The main points on that also are that Doherty and Egan only have a handful of caps. They should be heading towards 50 caps now not hoping to reach 20. Dara o'Shea at 22 has 8 caps and John John Egan at 28 has 13 and thats our starting centre halg pairing. They are both babies in terms of international football. Egan should be heading for 40/50 caps and taking O'Shea under his wing not still learning the ropes himself at international level.

athlone99

Fandymo wrote: »

Mick, famously, never had to deal with injuries. If excuses were football results, we’d be like Brazil.

Grand, you dont like or rate Stephen Kenny and will twist anything to suit your narrative.

Did Mick ever have to call up an extra 10 players 2 days after his 1st game in a window? The 2 spells are not comparative due to the last 16 months, there's been a pandemic dont you know.

Fandymo

athlone99 wrote: »

Grand, you dont like or rate Stephen Kenny and will twist anything to suit your narrative.

Did Mick ever have to call up an extra 10 players 2 days after his 1st game in a window? The 2 spells are not comparative due to the last 16 months, there's been a pandemic dont you know.

The pandemic was an issue for every person and every team worldwide, not just Ireland. It’s just another excuse.

Brock Turnpike

To change the topic somewhat... Anyone willing to take a stab at the team?

I think he'll go 3-5-2 and match up Hungary.

Bazunu

Duffy
Egan
O'Shea

Doherty
McClean

Cullen
Hourihane
Knight

Idah
Parrot

Pogue eile

athlone99 wrote: »

Egan should be heading for 40/50 caps and taking O'Shea under his wing not still learning the ropes himself at international level.

50 caps lol, your a gas man. So John Egan should have been capped in 2015 and never missed a single game since?

athlone99 wrote: »

Grand, you dont like or rate Stephen Kenny and will twist anything to suit your narrative.

I do love a bit of delicious irony :D

athlone99

Pogue eile wrote: »

50 caps lol, your a gas man. So John Egan should have been capped in 2015 and never missed a single game since?



I do love a bit of delicious irony :D

Of course someone who is 28/29 should be heading for 50 caps in an ideal world.

I dont twist anything, i have been fully consistent and stated multiple times that i believe SK should get the Euros campaign and then assess where we are. I havent changed from that.

What i have tried to do is point out to people the reasons why the senior team is not doing well atm, some of that down to the manager but most of it is entirely not his fault.

Its very easy to keep shouting and pointing out all the things that are going wrong without coming up with solutions. Sacking the manager now will solve nothing for the team. FYI read what Harry Arter said about the current set up.

Francie Barrett

athlone99 wrote: »

My main point was we have little to no players in that age bracket now. Some of those players who didnt make it at the highest level but were highly rated when they were younger could have had better careers by being around the senior team

We have loads of players from 25-30. Going from the current/previous squads we have.

Duffy, Doherty, Egan, Hourihane, Horgan, Cullen, Collins, Curtis, O'Hara, Christie, Lenihan, Stevens, Long, Williams, Smodics, Hendrick, Brady, Browne, O'Dowda, McEneff, Byrne, Robinson, Maguire, Burke.

athlone99 wrote: »

Egan should be heading for 40/50 caps and taking O'Shea under his wing not still learning the ropes himself at international level.

Egan is a central player at a Premier League club, has been described as a leader and worn the captains armband. He's done very little wrong for us so far, I don't really see what he needs to learn.

athlone99

Brock Turnpike wrote: »

To change the topic somewhat... Anyone willing to take a stab at the team?

I think he'll go 3-5-2 and match up Hungary.

Bazunu

Duffy
Egan
O'Shea

Doherty
McClean

Cullen
Hourihane
Knight

Idah
Parrot

Ive a feeling you could be bang on with that with maybe Arter for Hourihane?

DM_7

Closing this thread as too much bickering and sniping. Posts will be reviewed.

New thread here: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=117372759#post117372759

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