Republic of Ireland Team Talk/News/Rumours 2020/2021 - see Mod Note in OP [18/11/20]

johnnyryan89

William Hondermarck has gone on loan to league two side Harrogate Town from Norwich, who are currently 17th in the table.

Derby's first team have been hit with Covid so they're sending their using their underage players in this weekends fa cup tie, and no first team players will be travelling supposedly. Could see a few Irish players making their debuts.

gormdubhgorm

topmanamillion wrote: »

Stunning revisionism there.
McCarthy oversaw one of the poorest goal to game qualifying campaigns the country has had in a hell of a long time (7), tied with heavyweights like Georgia and Luxembourg's in the same campaign.

But its alright, Mick would have pulled it out of the bag on the night and again against the North.

The jury's firmly out on Kenny. But there isn't the slightest hope in hell McCarthy would have suddenly found the goals in that team needed to win through 2 knockout games in the space of a few days.

I never said Mick definitely would have but given the abilities of the players available a more direct style suits the players more, as they are limited - not technical. Plus focus on set pieces mean more chance of a goal - given the type of players.

Also it is as plain as the nose on my face, playing a poor form of possession football with no penetrative passes. Just side to side and backwards, makes Ireland easy to play against for even weaker sides on paper. It means Ireland offer even less threat than any Irish team witnessed for over 4 decades. Not only that the team now lack urgency and tempo. The opposition have a much easier time of it more chance to relax and play passes.

Plus it was telling that only goal Kenny got with Ireland was from a set piece, a Shane Duffy header. Ireland's strength.

The Big Easy

Don't know why we can't be patient with Kenny and give him the time he so clearly needs to overhaul the playing style of the National team. We have been terrible to watch for most of my life and certainly since 2002.

I'm delighted that Kenny was given the opportunity in the first place and to abandon it now would be hasty and ill-informed. It's going to take time and I'm excited to see what he can achieve given support and patience.

The players are of a certain standard in general, so I don't get the desire to get someone else in, no one would be winning lots of matches with this squad right now anyway.

Stay the course and hopefully Kenny will have a new team playing good football competitively and back to punching above our weight. I'm looking forward to getting back to the Aviva to support him and the lads in the not too distant future

gormdubhgorm

The Big Easy wrote: »

Don't know why we can't be patient with Kenny and give him the time he so clearly needs to overhaul the playing style of the National team. We have been terrible to watch for most of my life and certainly since 2002.

I'm delighted that Kenny was given the opportunity in the first place and to abandon it now would be hasty and ill-informed. It's going to take time and I'm excited to see what he can achieve given support and patience.

The players are of a certain standard in general, so I don't get the desire to get someone else in, no one would be winning lots of matches with this squad right now anyway.

Stay the course and hopefully Kenny will have a new team playing good football competitively and back to punching above our weight. I'm looking forward to getting back to the Aviva to support him and the lads in the not too distant future

I agree patient with Kenny no point in sacking him. But he needs to adapt and not pick a system and style that the players are not suited to. Ireland are currently punching below thier weight. Most teams would fancy thier chances of a result at the moment the way Ireland play. Never mind the strength of squad. Possession for possession's sake is not the answer there has to be a threat. At the moment Ireland are a poor imitation of Georgia.

Rhys Essien

Kelleher could be getting a start tomorrow night.

https://twitter.com/livecholfc/status/1347067946892406785?s=21

SomethingElse

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

He did finish the job and failed. His job was to qualify for the euros. He didn't.
The playoff from the nations league campaign is irrelevant to that process as MM had no part in that. They were 2 separate campaigns.

I agree with you though that naming a successor at the same point as MM appointment was a shambles of a decision but then the FAI are not the laughing stock of world football for no reason.

The team was still in with a chance of qualifying when McCarthy left - it was Kenny that ended that.

~Rebel~

SomethingElse wrote: »

The team was still in with a chance of qualifying when McCarthy left - it was Kenny that ended that.

Totally true. Though for context it's also important to recognise that that chance of qualifying was not in any way connected to anything Mick had done in the job.

gormdubhgorm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

At the moment Ireland are a poor imitation of Georgia.

So no change from when we last played them, in late 2019.

weldoninhio

sugarman wrote: »

FYP

We were able to beat Bulgaria 3-0 with a third string team and no goalscorer under Mick. Conor Hourihane started at left back ffs. How did Kennyball get on vs Bulgaria??

~Rebel~

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I never said Mick definitely would have but given the abilities of the players available a more direct style suits the players more, as they are limited - not technical. Plus focus on set pieces mean more chance of a goal - given the type of players.

A more direct style... you say that as if we had been playing a Charlton-esque style where we lumped and pressed. We weren't. There was next to no attacking support in Mick's system. About the only time we ever even attacked was when we were behind, and the opposition could sit back and counter. So what you seem to be suggesting is that an approach of sitting back and holding on would have given us better scoring opportunities than the attacking approach that created a few clear cut chances and one sitter. Mick's approach gives you a decent chance of not conceding first and foremost - but we didn't concede anyway...

Focus on set pieces. What does that mean? How did we not focus on set pieces? Do you think that when we had set pieces we actively decided not to try to score from them? In reality, having more of the ball in the opposition half creates more set pieces in dangerous areas. How those set pieces were worked was the same as how they've always been worked. Lump it in for Duffy to try to get his head on. Which is how we did score our NL goal, so seems like business as usual on the set pieces front. I daresay in Mick's gameplan, set pieces were the only route, while still being no more of a route than under Kenny.

Also it is as plain as the nose on my face, playing a poor form of possession football with no penetrative passes. Just side to side and backwards, makes Ireland easy to play against for even weaker sides on paper. It means Ireland offer even less threat than any Irish team witnessed for over 4 decades. Not only that the team now lack urgency and tempo. The opposition have a much easier time of it more chance to relax and play passes.

Plus it was telling that only goal Kenny got with Ireland was from a set piece, a Shane Duffy header. Ireland's strength.

This is all very broad, and seems to look more at Kenny's total time, rather than how that game played out, which is all that's relevant to the Mick or Kenny Euro discussion.

All the stuff you say about endless sideways passes is definitely true of plenty of other Kenny games, but doesn't feel at all like a description of the Slovakia match. Indeed, that's perhaps the only time where we played up the field through Slovakia pretty effectively, and created chances. There was a decent tempo and plenty of urgency in that game.

And - "The opposition have a much easier time of it more chance to relax and play passes." - I'm not sure the opposition have ever had more time to relax and play passes than under Mick and before him MON. Both era's were the pinnacle of sitting deep, and lumping the ball randomly up the field back to the opposition. Sure we even saw the likes of Georgia passing around us with ease under Mick.

Kenny's approach was no tactical masterclass or anything - it was fairly basic football where you try to actually engage in a game, and Ireland were just about the better team on the night. It didn't work out, and there are tonnes of managers out there that I would have preferred were in the dugout. The one I would discount instantly based on his own record in the job only just before is Mick. Like, he's the most known quantity out there, who you could have looked at and said "ok, this definitely doesn't work anyway".

Again, looking at the challenge - win away from home. The only away win Mick managed was a tight 1-0 victory away to Gibraltar. That's it. That's all. Couldn't even manage one against the mighty Georgia. Even in a win-and-qualify final home match against a Denmark team that were already qualified and couldn't have looked more disinterested, we were utterly abject.

So I totally totally accept that other manager's might have gotten us the win in Slovakia. Absolutely. But I still have yet to see any cogent argument that Mick would have, especially one strong enough to champion wishing he'd been kept on. And I really like Mick, he's a lovely man. But there's pretty much zero evidence from his campaign that this was a game he had the tools to win. If we could play that match again and you asked me to pick between them to take charge I'd ask if I could just have a bash off it myself!

Pawwed Rig

sugarman wrote: »

The game Jack Byrne turned on its head when he came on? It was 3-1. It was a nothing friendly. And it was a completely different Bulgarian squad under a different manager.

Dam you and your facts

weldoninhio

sugarman wrote: »

The game Jack Byrne turned on its head when he came on? It was 3-1. It was a nothing friendly. And it was a completely different Bulgarian squad under a different manager.

Ireland had 1 PL regular in the starting XI of the team that won 3-1. Kenny had 5 plus Connolly who’s in and out. The Nations League has nothing but nothing friendlies!!

BonnieSituation

weldoninhio wrote: »

Mick, like any manager who has his successor crowned before he even starts, had one arm tied behind his back by the FAI the last time. He had one job, qualify for the Euros. He wasn’t allowed finish that job. I believe that if Kenny wasn’t hovering in the background that Mick would have brought through a few young lads to prime them for the WC campaign. But as it was he had one job, knew he was going after it, so stuck with the players he knew.

Poor Mick.

It's now all Kenny's fault that Mick's awful campaign was so brutal!

What else can we blame Kenny on?

He's clearly the most malignant influence on Irish soccer since Joe Delaney.

gormdubhgorm

~Rebel~ wrote: »

A more direct style... you say that as if we had been playing a Charlton-esque style where we lumped and pressed. We weren't. There was next to no attacking support in Mick's system. About the only time we ever even attacked was when we were behind, and the opposition could sit back and counter. So what you seem to be suggesting is that an approach of sitting back and holding on would have given us better scoring opportunities than the attacking approach that created a few clear cut chances and one sitter. Mick's approach gives you a decent chance of not conceding first and foremost - but we didn't concede anyway...

Because the players were playing the direct style badly, no plan. Plus Charlton had a plan. By direct style I don't mean hoof it for the sake of it.
Now we have a situation where the team plays even worse as they are completely unsuited to possession based football.

Focus on set pieces. What does that mean? How did we not focus on set pieces? Do you think that when we had set pieces we actively decided not to try to score from them? In reality, having more of the ball in the opposition half creates more set pieces in dangerous areas.

How those set pieces were worked was the same as how they've always been worked. Lump it in for Duffy to try to get his head on. Which is how we did score our NL goal, so seems like business as usual on the set pieces front. I daresay in Mick's gameplan, set pieces were the only route, while still being no more of a route than under Kenny.

It means play for set pieces when given the opportunity. Practice them to the hilt. Have a bit of variation and ingenuity in the set piece as well. Plus Mick uses this gameplan because the players are limited technically. MON and Trap did the same, same reasons. But in 2002 Mick played a more attractive brand of football because it suited the more technical players he had. Duff, Robbie Keane, even Matt Holland was tidy with the ball, and Mark Kinsella was reasonably comfortable with the ball.

This is all very broad, and seems to look more at Kenny's total time, rather than how that game played out, which is all that's relevant to the Mick or Kenny Euro discussion.

All the stuff you say about endless sideways passes is definitely true of plenty of other Kenny games, but doesn't feel at all like a description of the Slovakia match. Indeed, that's perhaps the only time where we played up the field through Slovakia pretty effectively, and created chances. There was a decent tempo and plenty of urgency in that game.

And - "The opposition have a much easier time of it more chance to relax and play passes." - I'm not sure the opposition have ever had more time to relax and play passes than under Mick and before him MON. Both era's were the pinnacle of sitting deep, and lumping the ball randomly up the field back to the opposition. Sure we even saw the likes of Georgia passing around us with ease under Mick.

Because the players are/were devoid of confidence and not very good. No creative midfield. Yet this same players are supposed to suddenly supposed to play creative possession football? It is from the frying pan into the fire imo.

Kenny's approach was no tactical masterclass or anything - it was fairly basic football where you try to actually engage in a game, and Ireland were just about the better team on the night. It didn't work out, and there are tonnes of managers out there that I would have preferred were in the dugout. The one I would discount instantly based on his own record in the job only just before is Mick. Like, he's the most known quantity out there, who you could have looked at and said "ok, this definitely doesn't work anyway".

Again, looking at the challenge - win away from home. The only away win Mick managed was a tight 1-0 victory away to Gibraltar. That's it. That's all. Couldn't even manage one against the mighty Georgia. Even in a win-and-qualify final home match against a Denmark team that were already qualified and couldn't have looked more disinterested, we were utterly abject.

Fair enough on the away form. But how many games did Mick McCarthy lose and how many did he win? He instils fight in his teams drew against better teams Swiss and Danes at home. Only lost once in the group 2-0 to the Swiss who comfortably topped the group.

So I totally totally accept that other manager's might have gotten us the win in Slovakia. Absolutely. But I still have yet to see any cogent argument that Mick would have, especially one strong enough to champion wishing he'd been kept on. And I really like Mick, he's a lovely man. But there's pretty much zero evidence from his campaign that this was a game he had the tools to win. If we could play that match again and you asked me to pick between them to take charge I'd ask if I could just have a bash off it myself!

Well not only do the team now lack an direction and a solid tactical identity. The players lack fight and determination. They seem demotivated and are past caring, going through the motions. Even factoring in lack of crowds which Irish teams need more than most. You could never say before that an Irish team look like they did not care and had no fight. You can now.

A more direct style suits Ireland's best players Duffy (limited passer - goal threat), Ireland's midfield has no creativity. All we are left with now is a team told to play possession football unable to do so properly because the players are limited skill wise. It is much easier to get limited technical players working as a unit, harrying and hassling opponents playing a more direct style. Gets the players fired up and motivated. Mick is a motivator one of his strengths. And he is not idealistic in adhering to a specific style of play.

~Rebel~

Ok... you've lost me a wee bit now. This conversation started from you saying you thought Mick had a better chance of winning the Slovakia game--

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Because the players were playing the direct style badly, no plan. Plus Charlton had a plan. By direct style I don't mean hoof it for the sake of it.
Now we have a situation where the team plays even worse as they are completely unsuited to possession based football.

-- but you recognise that the direct style you want used, was indeed really poorly implemented by Mick, seemingly without a plan.

It means play for set pieces when given the opportunity. Practice them to the hilt. Have a bit of variation and ingenuity in the set piece as well. Plus Mick uses this gameplan because the players are limited technically. MON and Trap did the same, same reasons. But in 2002 Mick played a more attractive brand of football because it suited the more technical players he had. Duff, Robbie Keane, even Matt Holland was tidy with the ball, and Mark Kinsella was reasonably comfortable with the ball.

I'm not at all convinced that we didn't play for set pieces in good areas, or that they weren't practiced - as much as was possible given the little amount of trainging time that the team actually got. I entirely understand the importance of set pieces, I just fail to see in your argument how that importance hasn't been carried over. I think it has. Also I didn't see any ingenuity or variation in set pieces under Mick at all - I saw whipped in balls to Duffy's head, and that's it.

Because the players are/were devoid of confidence and not very good. No creative midfield. Yet this same players are supposed to suddenly supposed to play creative possession football? It is from the frying pan into the fire imo.

Ok, so again you agree that we were at nothing under Mick. Kenny's games have at times looked bloody awful too, but again in that one game we're talking about it was actually pretty decent. Decent control of the game, plenty of possession, and created some great openings including a missed sitter.

Fair enough on the away form. But how many games did Mick McCarthy lose and how many did he win? He instils fight in his teams drew against better teams Swiss and Danes at home. Only lost once in the group 2-0 to the Swiss who comfortably topped the group.

Well not only do the team now lack an direction and a solid tactical identity. The players lack fight and determination. They seem demotivated and are past caring, going through the motions. Even factoring in lack of crowds which Irish teams need more than most. You could never say before that an Irish team look like they did not care and had no fight. You can now.

A more direct style suits Ireland's best players Duffy (limited passer - goal threat), Ireland's midfield has no creativity. All we are left with now is a team told to play possession football unable to do so properly because the players are limited skill wise. It is much easier to get limited technical players working as a unit, harrying and hassling opponents playing a more direct style. Gets the players fired up and motivated. Mick is a motivator one of his strengths. And he is not idealistic in adhering to a specific style of play.

I'm not really sure how any of this stuff is relevant to the subject at hand, of the Slovakia match... as far as both tenure's go, I don't really want either of them. Kenny's time has been really disappointing, but the one direction I wouldn't go is back into a known-bad situation. As far as motivation is concerned, I daresay it's probably hard enough to stay motivated in the farce that has been international football over the past 9 months, with covid spreading through our camp like wildfire, and a revolving door of players into and out of the camp as a result of viruses and injuries. There really clearly shouldn't have been any Nations League games at all, so its hard enough to pin that sort of change in atmosphere on the manager, particularly when any possibility for bonding or team-building are off the table. Unprecedented times, as they say.

Wouldn't agree with Mick's motivational skills in the last campaign all that much either, they certainly weren't on show in Georgia, or especially in that embarrassment of a match at home against Denmark, when the Dane's left their own enthusiasm at home, and yet we could nary muster a bit of fight or intensity in a match that would have qualified us if we'd bothered our holes.

As it stands, I hope Kenny will learn to split the difference and find a way to play a bit of football in a system that suits the personnel better. I see little point in going back to the supposedly pragmatic Mick approach - and pragmatic is even a debatable term, as it implies the ends justifying the means, which they obviously didn't.

gormdubhgorm

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Ok, so again you agree that we were at nothing under Mick. Kenny's games
As it stands, I hope Kenny will learn to split the difference and find a way to play a bit of football in a system that suits the personnel better. I see little point in going back to the supposedly pragmatic Mick approach - and pragmatic is even a debatable term, as it implies the ends justifying the means, which they obviously didn't.

I agree on this bit anyway, something that gives Ireland a chance. Otherwise it is just a fella trying out a philosophy for the fun of it. Like some sort of gap year pretending results don't matter. Give Kenny a year and a half of non-Covid football. Then if there is no real improvement he would have no argument in saying it did not work. If there is some improvement and direction give him another contract.

The_Kew_Tour

Mick best away performance as Irish manager was beating Iceland 4-2 in 1997.

Hard to see it changing much when need 2 victories in 1 month to qualify for Euros.

johnnyryan89

sugarman wrote: »

Not as many as you might think, as far as I know Cashin and Ebsosele are out injured at the moment and I presume Watson is self isolating with the seniors having been involved with them the last few weeks. Other than Halwax, is there anyone else there?

Ebosele is back from injury but hasn't featured with the U23s, either he's still not fully fit or has been training with the seniors.

Ola Ibrahim joined them this summer from United as a first year scholar. Started the season with the U23s and was on the bench for their league cup game. But has been with the U18s lately, still only 17.

Max Bardell is another RB that's moved up to the U23s lately. The lad that's been playing RB when Festy was injured has been with the seniors lately so probably a chance he's also isolating.

Cian Kelly Caprani is also there but he's only a first year scholar so his chances of travelling would be slim to none given he doesn't start for the U18s.

Tchaikovsky

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Mick best away performance as Irish manager was beating Iceland 4-2 in 1997.

Gotta disagree, it was a poor performance in which we were helped greatly by some dodgy goalkeeping. Portugal away in 2000 was excellent.

The_Kew_Tour

Tchaikovsky wrote: »

Gotta disagree, it was a poor performance in which we were helped greatly by some dodgy goalkeeping. Portugal away in 2000 was excellent.

You're kinda right I would say Holland.

I meant result though not performance. My bad.

Arthur Daley

Even the point in Denmark in last group was alright going. Considering Denmark went to Wembley and won recently.

Tchaikovsky

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

You're kinda right I would say Holland.

I meant result though not performance. My bad.

The one in Holland was such a kicker as we should have won that, particularly as Kilbane missed that sitter after they scored their first. Who knows, in hindsight we might have burned out in the group and lost to them at home a year later.

Dr. Bre

Kelleher starts for Liverpool tonight

Rhys Essien

Dr. Bre wrote: »

Kelleher starts for Liverpool tonight

Surely he is now favorite to overtake Randolph for No.1 spot in March.

Pawwed Rig

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Surely he is now favorite to overtake Randolph for No.1 spot in March.

Let's see him get a run of games first.
Randolph is a known entity that has served us well. Displacing a relatively safe pair of hands is not easy (as Travers found out at Bournemouth).

The White Feather

Any else seen those Vinnie Jones ads for Brut? It just reminded me of him getting interviewed on RTE in an Ireland kit or something like that. He was trying to find the info to play for us and then later found it for Wales and played for them!

Just made me chuckle thinking about it again!

johnnyryan89

Louie Barry that's starting for Villa is Irish eligible. Played with our U16s a couple of years back.

henke

sugarman wrote: »

Scores. Been very good, but I don't think he has much of an interest in representing us.

Probably not. He played for us at U15 and U16 according to his Wikipedia but he has more recently played for England. I would expect him to stick with England if he is fulfilling his potential.

Lucas Hood

Damien Duff stepping down as Coach

henke

Damien Duff stepping down from his role as assistant. What do we make of that move?

https://www.fai.ie/ireland/news/damien-duff-steps-down-from-ireland-coaching-role

The White Feather

Damien Duff has stepped down from his role as Coach with Ireland

Beechwoodspark

Duffer has left his job with Steven kenny ffs

Lucas Hood

Suppose Robbie Keane could replace him and earn the 250k a year he's paid

The_Kew_Tour

Fantastic news:rolleyes:

henke

Is the link working for anyone? Can't access it would like to see what reasoning was offered.

Lucas Hood

henke wrote: »

Is the link working for anyone? Can't access it would like to see what reasoning was offered.

There was no reason offered in the statement.

yourdeadwright

Any one any clue

Ferris_Bueller

Bizarre. Only things that I can think of is that he has been offered a job elsewhere or was seriously put out over the fuss about the motivational video before the England game.

Blanco100

Or else he doesn't want to end up being associated with the Kenny reign any longer.

pgj2015

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Any one any clue

8 games, no wins, 1 goal.

Kermit.de.frog

henke wrote: »

Is the link working for anyone? Can't access it would like to see what reasoning was offered.

My genuine worries (and i'm not saying this is the case) about Kenny's appointment were always that unless he hit the ground running he would have a not deserved, but natural, problem with credibility/authority from players and some staff simply because he comes from LOI.

Jason McAteer tried to point this out and got pilloried for it.

I'm not saying that's why Duff has left but it follows on from the failure to qualify and the resignation of McGoldrick which was completely unexpected.

TheadoreT

He was fairly miffed on RTE about the fallout of that motivational video which was bordering on unprofessional saying "they can be very offensive to some people"

From what I hear its caused a bit of a rift in the squad among the irish and English.

Doubt the english lads were too happy with Duff basically rolling his eyes at them on national tv so id imagine it came down to a either he goes or we go situation.

Idle speculation...but any chance he's being lined up at Celtic Park?

Blanco100

Duff doesn't seem to last long anywhere to be honest. Maybe he's just flaky

weldoninhio

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Idle speculation...but any chance he's being lined up at Celtic Park?

He left Celtic so he could be with his family in Ireland, I thought. Probably realised being associated with the worst management team Ireland ever had would be bad for anything he wanted to do in the future.

ben.schlomo

RTE hinting the video investigation as a reason.

Blanco100

Sounds like it was Duff's idea so to make the motivational video no?

weldoninhio

If a few more high profile players/coaches walk, it’ll be obvious it’s down to Kennyball. Will Alan Kelly be back?

johnnyryan89

sugarman wrote: »

Could be, I suspect either way theres some sort of job on the table for him.

He could very well just miss the every day work involved in club football rather than the 10 days work once every 3 months you get with International football.

Vinny Perth / Stephen Kenny reunion?

If that's played a part then you wonder why he didn't get back invovled with Rovers to fill his time in between international breaks, unless he's UK based.

Some people do find it hard to adopt to the schedule of international football, especially those just starting out in their coaching careers and want to be hands on.

Pretty sure John O'Shea kept his job at Reading when he took up the U21s role, and Andy Reid is also involved with Nottingham Forests underage as well. I'd say he's got a senior role lined up somewhere, possibly replacing Lennon at Celtic.

Francie Barrett

Parrott starts for Millwall, live on BT extra.

Arter starts for Forest.

Coleman starts for Everton.

To name a few.