Minister for Agriculture attends 81-person golf event in breach of health guidelines

Muahahaha

maestroamado wrote: »

It could up being the best thing happened in Irish politics in the last 40 years...

yeah Im thinking the same. We have not ever seen a public so angry at government parties like the scale of this one. There was lots of anger in 2008-2011 about the economic crash but the politicians responsible for that always pointed at the global crash as their way out 'it wasnt us, there was a global recession', etc, etc.. :rolleyes: Then from 2011 to 2014 we had the Troika in town, any good news was delivered by FG and any bad news about austerity was blamed o the Troika. As soon as the IMF left town the politcal scandals started up again. It was like we had 3 years of professional governance and then it was back to the same old low standards and mediocrity that is the hallmark of the two governing parties.

This time it is very different because its all on FFG, they made the laws and then they broke them themselves and it was all to the detriment of public health. Theres five million people here on this island who have been making sacrifices for almost six months now and all for the good of public health and the FFG politicans go and shat all over that national effort so they could have a piss up after playing a round of golf.

Everyone from this scandal needs to go. Not just Hogan but the Fine Gael Supreme Court Judge Wolfe as well. Only a few weeks ago he was advising the Government on the very Covid regulations that we now all live under. No one knows more about Covid restrictions than Judge Wolfe, he has literally written the rules that he has now broken.

And what about former FG TD and MEP Brian Hayes> He brought 3 Vulture fund owners to the golf piss up. For the posters on here who often claimed that Fine Gael are not in bed with the vulture funds and always screamed "show us the proof" well now you have your fcuking proof.

Bit cynical

Deleted User wrote: »

It is now about both, let one run alongside and not be submerged by the other.

There's going to be a lot of pretend outrage among people who would have said nothing had the public not reacted as they did.

Bateman

I find that hard to believe, otherwise why are they paying the spin people

_Kaiser_

I can't see Phil resigning...

- He's not accountable to Leo, Micheal, or the Dail/Irish State
- He may have come from Ireland, but he's an EU Commissioner now. He's not representing Ireland. He's representing the EU
- His actual bosses basically read out his Twitter statement the other night

Unless there's hard evidence revealed that he was places other than what he said, he won't be going anywhere. Even then I'd say it's <50% he'll be made resign by the EU. He's well connected in there at this stage.

Hotblack Desiato

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

It was spread across 2 rooms though. These rules are only after being written. It is feasible that they could have believed that that was within the rules. There is a lot of that kind of thing going on with pubs etc. It isnt clearcut and I think that soneone could have attended under the belief that they were within the rules

No it wasn't. It was one room, with a partially closed divider, which was opened up further for the after dinner speeches!

I ate my breakfast in that very room on Friday morning (was in the main dining room on the other mornings.) With tables for dinner for 80-odd people, it'd be pretty full. At breakfast time the tables were very widely spread apart and they only allowed about 25 people in that room! Despite the fact that nobody at breakfast was drinking alcohol, shaking hands with people from Kildare, loudly talking sh!te and all the other stuff that no doubt went on on Wednesday night.

Throw in jet-setting Hogan and we have all the ingredients present for a potential super-spreader event.

This p!ssup was illegal under the new rules. But it was illegal under the old rules as well. Your excuses don't wash.

Pubs etc. taking the mick cannot excuse anyone else taking the mick.

I am deeply angry that my family and I, as guests at this hotel this week, have been needlessly put at risk for the sake of an illegal golf society jolly. If we'd known the hotel was proposing to host events like this, we simply would not have gone there.

I'm also angry that people see fit to excuse and minimise what is inexcusable behaviour from a bunch of entitled people who really should have known better. I can't think of a single reason how anyone involved with this event thought that it was an acceptable or good idea. Are they all really that thick, or just blinded by arrogance?

Hotblack Desiato

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

- His actual bosses basically read out his Twitter statement the other night

That's what'll hang him.

They publicly backed him on the basis that what he told them was the truth was actually the truth.

If it turns out to not be the truth, and he made a liar out of them, he is gone.

sligojoek

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I can't see Phil resigning...

- He's not accountable to Leo, Micheal, or the Dail/Irish State
- He may have come from Ireland, but he's an EU Commissioner now. He's not representing Ireland. He's representing the EU
- His actual bosses basically read out his Twitter statement the other night

Unless there's hard evidence revealed that he was places other than what he said, he won't be going anywhere. Even then I'd say it's <50% he'll be made resign by the EU. He's well connected in there at this stage.

They should read the Sunday World tomorrow

_Kaiser_

sligojoek wrote: »

They should read the Sunday World tomorrow

It's going to be a very interesting day for sure

mick087

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I can't see Phil resigning...

- He's not accountable to Leo, Micheal, or the Dail/Irish State
- He may have come from Ireland, but he's an EU Commissioner now. He's not representing Ireland. He's representing the EU
- His actual bosses basically read out his Twitter statement the other night

Unless there's hard evidence revealed that he was places other than what he said, he won't be going anywhere. Even then I'd say it's <50% he'll be made resign by the EU. He's well connected in there at this stage.

Unfortantley Irish people are not able to get rid of him from office. We do not have the powers to do this.

What is more scary neither can the elected Irish goverment.

He is a EU commissioner they are selected and not elected.

This is the danger of such a system, no accountability what so ever to the Irish people or elected Irish goverment.

Scuid Mhór

Muahahaha wrote: »

yeah Im thinking the same. We have not ever seen a public so angry at government parties like the scale of this one. There was lots of anger in 2008-2011 about the economic crash but the politicians responsible for that always pointed at the global crash as their way out 'it wasnt us, there was a global recession', etc, etc.. :rolleyes: Then from 2011 to 2014 we had the Troika in town, any good news was delivered by FG and any bad news about austerity was blamed o the Troika. As soon as the IMF left town the politcal scandals started up again. It was like we had 3 years of professional governance and then it was back to the same old low standards and mediocrity that is the hallmark of the two governing parties.

This time it is very different because its all on FFG, they made the laws and then they broke them themselves and it was all to the detriment of public health. Theres five million people here on this island who have been making sacrifices for almost six months now and all for the good of public health and the FFG politicans go and shat all over that national effort so they could have a piss up after playing a round of golf.

Everyone from this scandal needs to go. Not just Hogan but the Fine Gael Supreme Court Judge Wolfe as well. Only a few weeks ago he was advising the Government on the very Covid regulations that we now all live under. No one knows more about Covid restrictions than Judge Wolfe, he has literally written the rules that he has now broken.

And what about former FG TD and MEP Brian Hayes> He brought 3 Vulture fund owners to the golf piss up. For the posters on here who often claimed that Fine Gael are not in bed with the vulture funds and always screamed "show us the proof" well now you have your fcuking proof.

It's fantastic seeing the people get so livid and seeing the direct consequences of this anger. I had long lived in fear that a culture of apathy had been conditioned in all of us and the government could just get away with whatever they wanted. This could be a real turning point, a watershed moment if you will, for political participation in Ireland.

I would rather have FG back in charge - I fear that if things were to be dissolved, SF will get the majority instead. That might be even more of an omnishambles than this last month.

Muahahaha

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

No it wasn't. It was one room, with a partially closed divider, which was opened up further for the after dinner speeches!

I ate my breakfast in that very room on Friday morning (was in the main dining room on the other mornings.) With tables for dinner for 80-odd people, it'd be pretty full. At breakfast time the tables were very widely spread apart and they only allowed about 25 people in that room! Despite the fact that nobody at breakfast was drinking alcohol, shaking hands with people from Kildare, loudly talking sh!te and all the other stuff that no doubt went on on Wednesday night.

Throw in jet-setting Hogan and we have all the ingredients present for a potential super-spreader event.

This p!ssup was illegal under the new rules. But it was illegal under the old rules as well. Your excuses don't wash.

Pubs etc. taking the mick cannot excuse anyone else taking the mick.

I am deeply angry that my family and I, as guests at this hotel this week, have been needlessly put at risk for the sake of an illegal golf society jolly. If we'd known the hotel was proposing to host events like this, we simply would not have gone there.

I'm also angry that people see fit to excuse and minimise what is inexcusable behaviour from a bunch of entitled people who really should have known better. I can't think of a single reason how anyone involved with this event thought that it was an acceptable or good idea. Are they all really that thick, or just blinded by arrogance?

jesus Hotblack, that post is a quality two footed tackle if ever I saw one, kudos :cool:

Basically what you are saying is you stayed at the Station House Hotel in Clifden for a few days and all social distancing rules were being followed. Families were having breakfast in a big function room with a maximum of 25 people at a time. All good so far.

But then 81 (thats eighty fcuking one) clowns from the yahoo wing of FFG arrive into the hotel on a golf piss up and hooley. Many of them do not even play golf. Nonetheless they have a piss up in the very same function room where families are expected to have a socially distanced breakfast just a few hours later.

Hotblack thanks for your insight into what went on in this hotel. Ir shows us all that we are truly being led by donkeys.

StupidLikeAFox

Scuid Mhór wrote: »

I would rather have FG back in charge - I fear that if things were to be dissolved, SF will get the majority instead. That might be even more of an omnishambles than this last month.

Off topic but would SF be ready for it? They didn't run enough candidates the last time out, could they scramble enough together to make up the numbers, and if they did that may end up splitting their vote and losing seats overall

I wonder if Michael M was aware that Leo is going on RTE at 1pm today??

Sir Oxman

The Indo has scuppered the Sunday World's big headline draw - Hogan was in NL at the start of July and there are no restrictions between Belgium and NL

BUT
More importantly, his statement that he complied fully with Irish guidelines doesn't add up...it's basically saying he broke the 14 days isolation he was required to do. Whether that was for the 'essential' meeting with LV isn't clear as there were reports of him going to Dublin for medical stuff during this time.
Either way, self-isolation July 31-Aug13/14 doesn't tally with him leaving Kildare before lockdown began on August 8th

Reading full article, the judge is under severe pressure to buzz off as well.

"The Sunday Independent has also learned that in the first week of July, Mr Hogan travelled from Brussels to the Netherlands to take part in a tournament organised by the Irish Wild Geese Golf Society, which is based in the Belgian capital.

There were no travel restrictions between Belgium and the Netherlands at the time, but both countries are deemed unsafe for travel by the Irish Government. The number of new cases per 100,000 people in both countries is almost double the rate in Ireland.

On July 31, around three weeks after travelling to the Netherlands for the golf outing, Mr Hogan flew to Ireland where he was required to restrict his movements for two weeks. The EU trade commissioner was based in a property in the K Club in Kildare but left before the county was put under lockdown.

He also travelled to Dublin to meet Mr Varadkar for a trade meeting before the end of the period when he was supposed to restrict his movements.


"The Sunday Independent has also learned that senior members of the judiciary, including the Chief Justice, have misgivings about Mr Justice Woulfe's attendance at the gala dinner. Chief Justice Frank Clarke is to speak to Mr Justice Woulfe upon his return from holiday in the coming weeks. "

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/phil-hogan-on-the-brink-of-resignation-as-government-agrees-to-recall-dail-early-39470576.html

Tiger20

When you consider the best a country the size of the US has is Donald, and the UK recently had to choose between Boris and Corbyn, I don’t think we’re doing to bad. MM is probably the only FFer, but if either of Leo, Simon or Pascal from FG, or Mary Lou was Taoiseach and leader of our country, would I be embarrassed or ashamed of either one?

silver2020

Muahahaha wrote: »

jesus Hotblack, that post is a quality two footed tackle if ever I saw one, kudos :cool:

Basically what you are saying is you stayed at the Station House Hotel in Clifden for a few days and all social distancing rules were being followed. Families were having breakfast in a big function room with a maximum of 25 people at a time. All good so far.

But then 81 (thats eighty fcuking one) clowns from the yahoo wing of FFG arrive into the hotel on a golf piss up and hooley. Many of them do not even play golf. Nonetheless they have a piss up in the very same function room where families are expected to have a socially distanced breakfast just a few hours later.

Hotblack thanks for your insight into what went on in this hotel. Ir shows us all that we are truly being led by donkeys.

The function room can cater for 220 diners. On average with distancing, capacity of a restaurant halves. So that's 110.

The room has dividers, just like most conference spaces, so with a total of 81 each "room" has less than 50 and was in accordance with all rules and regulations that applied on Tuesday 18th August.

The problem is Stephen Donnelly and Micheal Martin who have been APPALLING (I used to vote ff) since they started, had a knee jerk reaction to the Berlin Bar high jinx (which did not contravene any regulation either - just people were pissed off at seeing others enjoy themselves) and introduced new restriction immediately.

Previously when Varadkar and Harris were calling the shots, they did not bow to knee jerk reactions and announced changes on Fridays for taking effect the following Monday unless it was an emergency. Changes were also well flagged.

So if anyone is to blame for golfgate, its MM & Donnelly for their ineptitude on the announcements.


I've checked 5 different publications from after that announcement - only the indo gives details about indoor gatherings being reduced. Times, Examiner, Mirror and daily muck don't mention the indoor gathering changes on their Tuesday night reports

Field east

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Ah that's only a pittance to him. As you say that's the basic, it's the top ups that matter. I think their tax treatment is quite favourable too, not sure just based on something I remember reading a while ago.

I wonder will Mairead Mc Guinness (VP of the EU Parliament) make a statement, or be asked for a comment. LOL.

Also an opportunity for Bono to say something.

Tiger20

maestroamado wrote: »

I just wonder who people would pick fo Taoiseach and the princible 5/6 Ministers from the lot of them.
I doubt if there be 10 in all parties who could cut-it at the top as MD for Ireland with the multi-nationals here.
Just wondering across all parties...

In response, see above post

Millionaire only not

Leo is tipped as front runner for the job , a loss to Ireland if u ask me but he’ll be good in Europe. Guess we’re stuck with Coveney!
Personally I would rather it the other way around as I think Coveney is good at negotiating and Leo is showing he’s cleverest of all the politicians put together .
Leo is using Michae’l Martin to mop the floor and throw him in the bin when he’s done if him .

ShamNNspace

mick087 wrote: »

Unfortantley Irish people are not able to get rid of him from office. We do not have the powers to do this.

What is more scary neither can the elected Irish goverment.

He is a EU commissioner they are selected and not elected.

This is the danger of such a system, no accountability what so ever to the Irish people or elected Irish goverment.

Mr Tony Benn put it well imv

Hawthorn Tree

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

No it wasn't. It was one room, with a partially closed divider, which was opened up further for the after dinner speeches!

I ate my breakfast in that very room on Friday morning (was in the main dining room on the other mornings.) With tables for dinner for 80-odd people, it'd be pretty full. At breakfast time the tables were very widely spread apart and they only allowed about 25 people in that room! Despite the fact that nobody at breakfast was drinking alcohol, shaking hands with people from Kildare, loudly talking sh!te and all the other stuff that no doubt went on on Wednesday night.

Throw in jet-setting Hogan and we have all the ingredients present for a potential super-spreader event.

This p!ssup was illegal under the new rules. But it was illegal under the old rules as well. Your excuses don't wash.

Pubs etc. taking the mick cannot excuse anyone else taking the mick.

I am deeply angry that my family and I, as guests at this hotel this week, have been needlessly put at risk for the sake of an illegal golf society jolly. If we'd known the hotel was proposing to host events like this, we simply would not have gone there.

I'm also angry that people see fit to excuse and minimise what is inexcusable behaviour from a bunch of entitled people who really should have known better. I can't think of a single reason how anyone involved with this event thought that it was an acceptable or good idea. Are they all really that thick, or just blinded by arrogance?

Great post. I can only imagine that the people condoning this event have some kind of colonial tip-the-cap mentality towards their 'betters. Hogan was rewarded for utter failure with Irish Water. He needs to resign this time.

Danzy

Hawthorn Tree wrote: »

Great post. I can only imagine that the people condoning this event have some kind of colonial tip-the-cap mentality towards their 'betters. Hogan was rewarded for utter failure with Irish Water. He needs to resign this time.

Dumping people in to the EU is common all over Europe.

MickeyLeari

A good reason for this was the rushed advice this week.

https://www.thejournal.ie/irish-hotels-federation-golf-gate-5181902-Aug2020/

Field east

Sir Oxman wrote: »

Your post doesn't recognise that tv, radio, newspapers all have this as the #1 story as it is developing hour by hour.
You also didn't once mention lawmakers were involved, very high positioned lawmakers who erm, make the rules.
Ever heard of the phrase, 'bring the people with you'?
Trying to get people on this here forum to stop being inconvenient to party feelings won't work.

I’ve read the thread from no 1 to this polnt and have a strong flavor of what is goin on in the Joe Duffy programme and the phrase ‘empty vessals make the most noise’.
Don’t get me wrong. What was done was wrong and MUST be appropriately addressed but the ‘baby should not be thrown out with the bathwater’ and my fear is that may happen.
I don’t know where the government will get the energy and time and concentration required to adequately address the unprecedented issues ahead of it Eg. Covid, Brexit, going back to school, Leaving Cert. while at the same time trying to grapple with the golf gate issue - not to say time spent on the Cowen issue.
Getting back to the first sentence, when you remove all the inputs from the Keyboard warriors, trollers,individuals who are ‘anti establishment’ and will use every opportunity to make their case, groups out there specifically set up to ‘go into action’ when requested, etc, I wonder then what’s left re genuine objective responders?

tigger123

Field east wrote: »

I’ve read the thread from no 1 to this polnt and have a strong flavor of what is goin on in the Joe Duffy programme and the phrase ‘empty vessals make the most noise’.
Don’t get me wrong. What was done was wrong and MUST be appropriately addressed but the ‘baby should not be thrown out with the bathwater’ and my fear is that may happen.
I don’t know where the government will get the energy and time and concentration required to adequately address the unprecedented issues ahead of it Eg. Covid, Brexit, going back to school, Leaving Cert. while at the same time trying to grapple with the golf gate issue - not to say time spent on the Cowen issue.
Getting back to the first sentence, when you remove all the inputs from the Keyboard warriors, trollers,individuals who are ‘anti establishment’ and will use every opportunity to make their case, groups out there specifically set up to ‘go into action’ when requested, etc, I wonder then what’s left re genuine objective responders?

The Government is being distracted from dealing with the issues in front of it because a member of the Cabinet and some Senators (amongst others) decided to ignore Government guidelines re Covid.

The Government is doing this to itself. If anyone is to blame, it's the Government.

People are justifiably angry at this considering the sacrifices the Government has asked of people for the last six months.

Fr Tod Umptious

MickeyLeari wrote: »

A good reason for this was the rushed advice this week.

https://www.thejournal.ie/irish-hotels-federation-golf-gate-5181902-Aug2020/

I read something similar on the RTE website about it.

The Irish Hotels Federation asked the Department of Tourism for clarification on Wednesday morning about the new guidelines.

Department of Tourism said status quo (50 people) remains in please untill clarification was received.

The clarification was received on Friday afternoon.

So 41 people in a room was fine on Wednesday night according to Department of Tourism.

The likes of Callery and co were totally stupid and tone deaf to allow themselves to be caught up in this, but they did not seem to be blatantly breaking any rules or ignoring any guidelines.

MickeyLeari

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I read something similar on the RTE website about it.

The Irish Hotels Federation asked the Department of Tourism for clarification on Wednesday morning about the new guidelines.

Department of Tourism said status quo (50 people) remains in please untill clarification was received.

The clarification was received on Friday afternoon.

So 41 people in a room was fine on Wednesday night according to Department of Tourism.

The likes of Callery and co were totally stupid and tone deaf to allow themselves to be caught up in this, but they did not seem to be blatantly breaking any rules or ignoring any guidelines.

Agree and also useful to recall that we were all being asked to support the local economy, to staycation and indeed we had a economy stimulus plan a few weeks back.

Sir Oxman

Field east wrote: »

I’ve read the thread from no 1 to this polnt and have a strong flavor of what is goin on in the Joe Duffy programme and the phrase ‘empty vessals make the most noise’.
Don’t get me wrong. What was done was wrong and MUST be appropriately addressed but the ‘baby should not be thrown out with the bathwater’ and my fear is that may happen.
I don’t know where the government will get the energy and time and concentration required to adequately address the unprecedented issues ahead of it Eg. Covid, Brexit, going back to school, Leaving Cert. while at the same time trying to grapple with the golf gate issue - not to say time spent on the Cowen issue.
Getting back to the first sentence, when you remove all the inputs from the Keyboard warriors, trollers,individuals who are ‘anti establishment’ and will use every opportunity to make their case, groups out there specifically set up to ‘go into action’ when requested, etc, I wonder then what’s left re genuine objective responders?

It's quite easy.
They need to act swiftly against all of those lawmakers and party affiliates (as far as they can possibly do so) who flouted the spirit and requirements of the measures they introduced.
This govt cannot bring a population with it until they do and quite frankly, we're fecked if the people don't.

Then they can get on with guiding the country through this turbulent period - as one columnist put it, the politicking has to stop inside the govt (FG v FF, FF v FG)

MickeyLeari

As I said on the Phil Hogan thread.

So what is this in reality:

- the Government policy up to last week was to get the country back to business.
- we had a job stimulus plan in July and a good part of this was in respect to the hospitality industry which is on its knees right now. Note that close to a million people are either on the PUP or the TWSS (we won’t be able to afford this for long).
- we have a Government policy of encouraging staycations. The extent to this approach is that the chair of Bord Failte was forced to resign after taking a holiday in a country which was perfectly ok to travel to (normal precautions is the DFA advice)
- hotels and restaurants are reeling from Covid 19 and trying to stay open while adhering to complex rules.
- the Cabinet in a panic last Tuesday changed the rules and they could not even explain them at a press conference.
- the hotel and the hotels federation seemingly received advice that functions could be split so as to comply with the rules applying until Tuesday afternoon.
- the hotel and the hotel federation were seeking clarity on the new rules (huge uncertainty in respect to these rules). https://www.thejournal...ate-5181902-Aug2020/
- an event went ahead under this uncertainty - an event which was in line with the opening up message which applied until the previous day (although no one was 100% sure what the Cabinet agreed).
- a member of that Cabinet attended the event and should have known it was in breach of what he agreed the previous day (the rest of us did not really have a clue).
- that Minister was right to resign having agreed this.
- the organisers clearly knew that they were stretching the existing rules.
- other attendees (like with all health and safety advices) would have had to assume that the event was in line with govt advice and legal regulations.

If this was in front of a rationale body such as a Court or workplace dispute it would be thrown out in minutes but this is the Court of public opinion.

_Kaiser_

Millionaire only not wrote: »

Leo is tipped as front runner for the job , a loss to Ireland if u ask me but he’ll be good in Europe. Guess we’re stuck with Coveney!
Personally I would rather it the other way around as I think Coveney is good at negotiating and Leo is showing he’s cleverest of all the politicians put together .
Leo is using Michae’l Martin to mop the floor and throw him in the bin when he’s done if him .

I really don't understand the love for Leo from many people.

He knows how to play the game and use the media to his advantage, but there's no substance behind it.

Think rationally. What did he really achieve as a Minister under Enda?
What about him using the SSM campaign to boost his bid to replace Enda by "coming out" on national radio when only a few years earlier he was standing in the Dail advocating against much of what the campaign was about?
What did he achieve as Taoiseach? Spin units? The "look after those who get up early in the morning" lie? Core domestic issues like health and housing worsening under his watch? Let's not forget the election result and that it took 5 counts to get him elected.

The guy has no policies or priorities save for his own career and advancement. The media love him because he's always good for a soundbite or talking out of turn, but he would be zero loss to the country. In fact he may well be hoping himself that he'll get move to Europe out of it.


Coveney on the other hand doesn't have the media image but he is very much a Europhile and big business guy too.
Given FG's habit of putting business interests over the electorates, and the ongoing efforts of the EU to do things like eliminate our corporation tax advantage and push member states into a USofE federal arrangement (which will only cause more disharmony in the group than we've seen in the last 10 years), having Simon at the helm here could see Ireland's influence and control over domestic policies eroded even further.