PHIL HOGAN NEEDS TO RESIGN.

Ger Roe

stockshares wrote: »

You have a point about the type that doesn't want to pay for anything but there are many that do.

The hospital or lack of is a stain in the country but if you look at all the scandals since the state was founded children of old people don't matter here

There is no money in either for them. They see it like this:
Why part with money now for a children's hospital only for others to get a return on it.

Why look after the old. Their on the way out and there's nothing in that for me

They want to profit now.

I often think about that aspect (I know, I should get out more often)... look at the Victorians, see all that they gave us by building social infrastructure that would be of benefit long after they were gone. We lack that foresight or commitment today - it's a brave elected rep that looks beyond their current term.

The Victorians even gave us Dublin's water treatment system, and we did practically sod all with it since. Even if we built the required number of houses to meet the homes crisis (hasn't gone away), we don't have enough water treatment capacity to serve them. And yet every house built today still flushes fully treated drinking water down the loo.

We only have ourselves to blame.

jm08

Hawthorn Tree wrote: »

Yes. Massive overspend when Tierney was in charge. It mirrored what he subsequently did in IW. Why do you think he was brought in my the Public Accounts committee??? He refused to attend the 2nd time. He had spent 96,000,000 on Poolbeg before he moved to IW and the construction hadn't even started.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1203/356693-dublin-poolbeg-incinerator/

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/tierney-snub-to-tds-over-probe-into-poolbeg-30348561.html

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/now-irish-water-chief-faces-pac-over-96m-poolbeg-bill-29933890.html

They appointed the wrong man to IW and history repeated itself.

The big costs were the cost of the site which was bought at the height of the property boom. Then there was delays with planning objections by locals and by groups such as An Taisce who didn't want an incinarator. The big issue that the PAC had was the cost and with the recession, it was too big and would never be at full capacity. Other groups just didn't want it there. And then then there was an investigation of it being a public private partnership getting State Aid (this was created by the change in policy of County Councils privatising waste collection).


Just checked now - and they were wrong. Its at full capacity now, is generating enough electricity for 80,000 homes and heating 50,000 houses and most importantly, we don't have to export about 600,000 tons of waste each year or put it in landfill. It also made profits of about 40m last year. They have applied for PP to increase the amount of waste they incinerate so that they can increase the generation of electricity and heating.


Now as for cost - cleaning up illegal dumps all over the country has got millions (when they actually get around to cleaning them up).

jm08

Ger Roe wrote: »

I often think about that aspect (I know, I should get out more often)... look at the Victorians, see all that they gave us by building social infrastructure that would be of benefit long after they were gone. We lack that foresight or commitment today - it's a brave elected rep that looks beyond their current term.

The Victorians even gave us Dublin's water treatment system, and we did practically sod all with it since. Even if we built the required number of houses to meet the homes crisis (hasn't gone away), we don't have enough water treatment capacity to serve them. And yet every house built today still flushes fully treated drinking water down the loo.

We only have ourselves to blame.

In fairness, the Ardnacrusha scheme and rural electrification was major in the very early days of the State when it was broke. All that house building in 50s/60s/70s was fairly impressive as well. If they could do it then, they can do it now.

time to unfollow this thread.

stockshares

Ger Roe wrote: »

I often think about that aspect (I know, I should get out more often)... look at the Victorians, see all that they gave us by building social infrastructure that would be of benefit long after they were gone. We lack that foresight or commitment today - it's a brave elected rep that looks beyond their current term.

The Victorians even gave us Dublin's water treatment system, and we did practically sod all with it since. Even if we built the required number of houses to meet the homes crisis (hasn't gone away), we don't have enough water treatment capacity to serve them. And yet every house built today still flushes fully treated drinking water down the loo.

We only have ourselves to blame.

They used to dredge the rivers too. It's never done now and constant flooding.

Other than Tallaght Hospital and maybe a couple of regional hospitals the other main ones are all from the British.

The Motorways came from EU money.

I can only think of the IFSC, Hotels, Shoping Centres that could be deemed successful additions(The Economy). The refurbushing of three sports stadiums which were/are financial disasters.

The airport and Luas are good but are blighted by poor planning.

Dublin City Centre is a congestion disaster. One of the worst city centres in Europe. Old Victorian design never improved upon.

The old City Centre Trams were concreted over be sure the wisemen of the time thought it made us look backward.

There's not much to this place really.

Zebra3

A lot of the protests were driven by the fear of privitisation and that the fact that water charges were brought in to pay for FF/Greens stealing billions from the people to burn on the bank.

If water charges had been brought in as part of a radical redrawing of the tax system a number of years before along with reform of stamp duty, it's highly likely it wouldn't have been such an issue.

jm08

stockshares wrote: »

They used to dredge the rivers too. It's never done now and constant flooding.

Other than Tallaght Hospital and maybe a couple of regional hospitals the other main ones are all from the British.

The Motorways came from EU money.

I can only think of the IFSC, Hotels, Shoping Centres that could be deemed successful additions(The Economy). The refurbushing of three sports stadiums which were/are financial disasters.

The airport and Luas are good but are blighted by poor planning.

Dublin City Centre is a congestion disaster. One of the worst city centres in Europe. Old Victorian design never improved upon.

The old City Centre Trams were concreted over be sure the wisemen of the time thought it made us look backward.

There's not much to this place really.

Dredging rivers isn't a way to stop flooding. Stop building houses in flood planes, digging more drains to drain the land, decreasing vegetation on the hillsides (by dense afforestation) which would prevent runnoff, not to mention building windfarms on high ground that result in mudslides.

stockshares

Meanwhile this buffoon has piped up.

The way this **** treated the Defence Forces should have finished him in politics.
https://twitter.com/oconnellhugh/status/1298987246180134913?s=19

hatrickpatrick

Let’s get one thing perfectly clear: the media is not to blame for Ireland losing its trade commissioner. The people are not to blame for Ireland losing its trade commissioner. The EU is not to blame for Ireland losing its trade commissioner.

Ireland’s trade commissioner is to blame for Ireland losing its trade commissioner.

It’s an extremely disturbing era we’re living in, in which those calling for accountability for those in power are blamed for the fallout of those in power facing accountability. Phil Hogan chose to break numerous rules and give the two fingers to the Irish public. Every single person who attended that dinner chose to break at least that one rule and give the two fingers to the Irish people.

That they should face the consequences of this choice that they made is not the fault of “the baying mob” or whatever other derisive term ye want to use to describe the general public’s desire for those in power to be held to account.

It is their own fault, and their own fault alone.

If Ireland suffers in the Brexit negotiations because of Phil Hogan’s sh!tty behavior and subsequent resignation, then that suffering is entirely the fault of Phil Hogan and he is the one who should be condemned for it. The end.

hatrickpatrick

Zebra3 wrote: »

A lot of the protests were driven by the fear of privitisation and that the fact that water charges were brought in to pay for FF/Greens stealing billions from the people to burn on the bank.

If water charges had been brought in as part of a radical redrawing of the tax system a number of years before along with reform of stamp duty, it's highly likely it wouldn't have been such an issue.

The usual FG passive-discrimination (AKA, total contempt) against young people and their living arrangements also fed into it massively. Many young people I knew back then were fully in favor of water charges on environmentalist grounds, until the rules around the “free allowance” were published and were applied per household rather than per person, showing flagrant disregard for the fact that young people often lived in house shares with five or six people and therefore would be totally shafted in comparison with a more traditional married couple living arrangement, since the free allowance would be the same for the household regardless of how many people were living in it. That infuriated many people and was at the time, the latest in a long line of FG decisions which essentially said “we only care about people who have settled down and aren’t in their twenties”.

That moronic oversight played a much much larger role in galvanizing young people into the water protests than anyone acknowledged at the time.

Psychiatric Patrick

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Let’s get one thing perfectly clear: the media is not to blame for Ireland losing its trade commissioner. The people are not to blame for Ireland losing its trade commissioner. The EU is not to blame for Ireland losing its trade commissioner.

Ireland’s trade commissioner is to blame for Ireland losing its trade commissioner.

It’s an extremely disturbing era we’re living in, in which those calling for accountability for those in power are blamed for the fallout of those in power facing accountability. Phil Hogan chose to break numerous rules and give the two fingers to the Irish public. Every single person who attended that dinner chose to break at least that one rule and give the two fingers to the Irish people.

That they should face the consequences of this choice that they made is not the fault of “the baying mob” or whatever other derisive term ye want to use to describe the general public’s desire for those in power to be held to account.

It is their own fault, and their own fault alone.

If Ireland suffers in the Brexit negotiations because of Phil Hogan’s sh!tty behavior and subsequent resignation, then that suffering is entirely the fault of Phil Hogan and he is the one who should be condemned for it. The end.

1641

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

That they should face the consequences of this choice that they made is not the fault of “the baying mob” or whatever other derisive term ye want to use to describe the general public’s desire for those in power to be held to account.

It is their own fault, and their own fault alone.

If Ireland suffers in the Brexit negotiations because of Phil Hogan’s sh!tty behavior and subsequent resignation, then that suffering is entirely the fault of Phil Hogan and he is the one who should be condemned for it. The end.

Two different things (if related).


Hogan's personal downfall is entirely his own fault. He deserves no sympathy.


Ireland's loss of the Trade Commissioner's job (one of the most important) at this particular moment is a shot in our own foot.

First Up

hatrickpatrick wrote:

If Ireland suffers in the Brexit negotiations because of Phil Hogan’s sh!tty behavior and subsequent resignation, then that suffering is entirely the fault of Phil Hogan and he is the one who should be condemned for it. The end.

All pretty well correct but it would be good to see some regret at the strategic loss that came with it, instead of just mindless glee at the downfall of a political foe.

Seamai

stockshares wrote: »

Meanwhile this buffoon has piped up.

The way this **** treated the Defence Forces should have finished him in politics.
https://twitter.com/oconnellhugh/status/1298987246180134913?s=19

I couldn't care less what Paul Kehoe or for that matter Downing Street things of us (it's not as if they don't have a sh*t show of their own to be concerned about). Someone from his party got caught trying to abuse his powerful position. He's not the first and he wont be the last but this time it wasn't brushed under the carpet and was dealt with the correct manner. It seems the biggest mistake a cute hoor can make is to get caught.

wrangler

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Let’s get one thing perfectly clear: the media is not to blame for Ireland losing its trade commissioner. The people are not to blame for Ireland losing its trade commissioner. The EU is not to blame for Ireland losing its trade commissioner.

Ireland’s trade commissioner is to blame for Ireland losing its trade commissioner.

It’s an extremely disturbing era we’re living in, in which those calling for accountability for those in power are blamed for the fallout of those in power facing accountability. Phil Hogan chose to break numerous rules and give the two fingers to the Irish public. Every single person who attended that dinner chose to break at least that one rule and give the two fingers to the Irish people.

That they should face the consequences of this choice that they made is not the fault of “the baying mob” or whatever other derisive term ye want to use to describe the general public’s desire for those in power to be held to account.

It is their own fault, and their own fault alone.

If Ireland suffers in the Brexit negotiations because of Phil Hogan’s sh!tty behavior and subsequent resignation, then that suffering is entirely the fault of Phil Hogan and he is the one who should be condemned for it. The end.

I'd imagine at this stage Phil Hogan doesn't give a damn what the Irish think of him

Edgware

wrangler wrote: »

I'd imagine at this stage Phil Hogan doesn't give a damn what the Irish think of him

CORRECTION. Insert " at any stage" to replace " at this stage"

Rubberchikken

Every time he opens his mouth hogan shows himself to be the weak ineffectual distrustful slime I always thought he was.

Good riddance.

Muahahaha

Zebra3 wrote: »

A lot of the protests were driven by the fear of privitisation and that the fact that water charges were brought in to pay for FF/Greens stealing billions from the people to burn on the bank.

If water charges had been brought in as part of a radical redrawing of the tax system a number of years before along with reform of stamp duty, it's highly likely it wouldn't have been such an issue.

Thats it in a nutshell. Had FG said they were spending a billion on fixing leaks many people would have got on board with that. But instead they went spending money on meters so private interests could charge. Then the famous internal Irish Water powerpoint slide got leaked where it said they wanted to "change citizens into consumers". After that people woke up to what it was really all about.

stockshares wrote: »

Meanwhile this buffoon has piped up.

The way this **** treated the Defence Forces should have finished him in politics.
https://twitter.com/oconnellhugh/status/1298987246180134913?s=19

Hogan and Paul Kehoe are good friends so this isnt surprising. Hogan actually sold Kehoe his apartment on Haddington Road a few years ago.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It is their own fault, and their own fault alone.

If Ireland suffers in the Brexit negotiations because of Phil Hogan’s sh!tty behavior and subsequent resignation, then that suffering is entirely the fault of Phil Hogan and he is the one who should be condemned for it. The end.

Everyone knows that but you'll always get the political party hacks with their hand wringing trying to blame anyone but their own man who is to blame. Thats why you get posters inventing imaginary mobs and decrying them. Their blind loyalty to a political party means they have to find a scapegoat for one of their own being scalped. Political accountability to them is only for politicians who are members of other parties, anything else is an affront.

We see this behaviour on here every single time after a politician is forced to resign because of their own incompetence and stupidity. Barry Cowen, Dara Callery, Alan Shattter, go back to any of those threads and in the aftermath of the resignation you will see the party hacks on there whinging about the imaginary mob. They cant accept that 'one of their own' would be so stupid to be forced into resigning in disgrace so as a coping mechanism they invent the imaginary mob and shift the blame there instead. Its sad really but there you are.

screamer

What all the woe betide us Phil apologists forget is that every commissioner like every politician has a back room of advisers and experts who are very astute and capable.
These advisors are there to wave off the outgoing and call in the newcomer, and they run things, not the politician. How do you think governments change but countries stay going business as usual?
No one is irreplaceable and I firmly believe Brexit will not be one ounce better or worse due to the lack of Phil Hogan. I’m very glad to see Ursula show some teeth, enough of lying, self serving public figureheads. I hope it’s a lesson to them all.

hatrickpatrick

1641 wrote: »

Two different things (if related).


Hogan's personal downfall is entirely his own fault. He deserves no sympathy.


Ireland's loss of the Trade Commissioner's job (one of the most important) at this particular moment is a shot in our own foot.

Ireland's loss of the Trade Commissioner job is a shot in our foot from Phil Hogan. He is the one at fault, and nobody else.

hatrickpatrick

First Up wrote: »

All pretty well correct but it would be good to see some regret at the strategic loss that came with it, instead of just mindless glee at the downfall of a political foe.

Maybe it's just the circles I move in but I've seen plenty of that. The general consensus is "Phil Hogan is a pr!ck and he had to go, but it's such a pity he had to screw us out of the EU trade portfolio at such a crucial time". The important distinction there is that he's he who screwed us out of this. Not the media. Not a public desire for accountability. The man who rightly got fired because he chose to act like a bollocks - he himself is the one who screwed us out of that position of influence within the EU. Nobody else.

Zebra3

Interesting to listen to Ursula von der Leyen's press conference.

Fair play to her for blaming the begrudging "witch hunt" and "baying mobs" who bullied poor little Phil out of his job.

Oh wait, she said it was totally his own fault.

1641

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Ireland's loss of the Trade Commissioner job is a shot in our foot from Phil Hogan. He is the one at fault, and nobody else.

Hogan loss of his job is his own fault. We did not have to lose a Trade Commissioner at a vital time because of his arrogance and stupidity. We could have handled it better.


Hogan loses his prestige - and some of his salary. I am sure his pension will be grand.


What about the loss to Ireland? This means jobs and livelihoods. It may even mean more if a poor Brexit deal affects the border. And this is a price worth paying just to make Hogan suffer (a little)?

stockshares

Muahahaha wrote: »

.

Hogan and Paul Kehoe are good friends so this isnt surprising. Hogan actually sold Kehoe his apartment on Haddington Road a few years ago.

Kehoe is an odious insincere gombeen whos far from smart. How he got where he is is baffling.

Who voted for these ****ers .

1641

Zebra3 wrote: »

Interesting to listen to Ursula von der Leyen's press conference.

Fair play to her for blaming the begrudging "witch hunt" and "baying mobs" who bullied poor little Phil out of his job.

Oh wait, she said it was totally his own fault.

I take it you are just deliberately playing the "silly card". If there had been less baying from the public (understandable though it was), and a more considered approach from the Irish Government, Ursula would have looked the other way. Whatever she thinks of Hogan this is a major mess for the Commission which they would have gladly veered away from if they could have.

tom1ie

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Let’s get one thing perfectly clear: the media is not to blame for Ireland losing its trade commissioner. The people are not to blame for Ireland losing its trade commissioner. The EU is not to blame for Ireland losing its trade commissioner.

Ireland’s trade commissioner is to blame for Ireland losing its trade commissioner.

It’s an extremely disturbing era we’re living in, in which those calling for accountability for those in power are blamed for the fallout of those in power facing accountability. Phil Hogan chose to break numerous rules and give the two fingers to the Irish public. Every single person who attended that dinner chose to break at least that one rule and give the two fingers to the Irish people.

That they should face the consequences of this choice that they made is not the fault of “the baying mob” or whatever other derisive term ye want to use to describe the general public’s desire for those in power to be held to account.

It is their own fault, and their own fault alone.

If Ireland suffers in the Brexit negotiations because of Phil Hogan’s sh!tty behavior and subsequent resignation, then that suffering is entirely the fault of Phil Hogan and he is the one who should be condemned for it. The end.

Nope.

Hogan is an arrogant bastard for sure and I’m happy he’s been taken down a peg or two.

Ireland pretty much demanding hogan gets sacked and leaving the trade portfolio open to whoever Ursula wants to put there is completely irresponsible and to the detriment of Ireland.
The leaders of the country will be the ones to blame as they had to be populous as opposed to look at the bigger picture.

First Up

1641 wrote:

What about the loss to Ireland? This means jobs and livelihoods. It may even mean more if a poor Brexit deal affects the border. And this is a price worth paying just to make Hogan suffer (a little)?

It is a very serious setback, for which Hogan shoulders most of the blame. (His accomplices are the event organisers and the hotel in Clifden but he broke too many rules - written or not.)

But it is potentially a lot bigger setback to Ireland than just him. Getting the Trade portfolio for an Irish commissioner was the culmination of years of hard and smart work by politicians and officials. It was recognition of the track record of previous Irish commissioners and officials (including Hogan) and the awareness in the Commission and across the EU of Ireland's commitment to the EU, as well as our exposure from Brexit. It was a diplomatic triumph.

So his fall marks a huge waste of effort; it negates years of good work and could seriously weaken our position in trading with the UK.

Yet this thread is made up of juvenile taunts, parish pump political point scoring, re-hashing of water charges and naked begrudgery of someone in a good job. Hardly a single reference to the bigger picture or any concern for what happens next.

It is pathetic and depressing to see Ireland at its ignorant, miserable worst.

hatrickpatrick

tom1ie wrote: »

Nope.

Hogan is an arrogant bastard for sure and I’m happy he’s been taken down a peg or two.

Ireland pretty much demanding hogan gets sacked and leaving the trade portfolio open to whoever Ursula wants to put there is completely irresponsible and to the detriment of Ireland.
The leaders of the country will be the ones to blame as they had to be populous as opposed to look at the bigger picture.

Not asking him to resign would have been worse, though. It would have been tacit acknowledgement that individuals can be, to borrow from economic debates, "too big to fail" - in other words, that some people can be considered too systemically important to face the just consequences of their sh!tty behaviour. That is a paradigm which has long existed in Ireland and which is precisely why people such as those 80 individuals at the golf dinner believed so sincerely that they could literally do whatever they wanted without consequence.

That paradigm has long needed to change, and if our government had yet against stuck by that awful principle, it would have perpetuated that attitude among the elites for another generation.

There can be nobody too important or no issue too vital for people who break the rules to lose their jobs for doing so. It's that simple. If we allow such concepts to exist in society, we are essentially giving those in such positions a blank cheque to engage in whatever sort of misbehaviour they like without consequence. This particular attitude which has pervaded public life in Ireland since at least the Haughey era has been the cause of numerous damaging and costly scandals in our state, from the Garda scandals to Anglo Irish Bank and the surrounded calamities.

Our government had to set an example that they would not tolerate such behaviour. Failing to do so would have given the rest of Irish society a similar blank cheque to ignore the COVID restrictions. How can you have a government calling for people to be prosecuted for breaking the restrictions while simultaneously allowing a man who broke numerous laws and COVID regulations in one 48-hour period to carry on as if nothing had happened, just because he's an important man?

Zebra3

1641 wrote: »

I take it you are just deliberately playing the "silly card". If there had been less baying from the public (understandable though it was), and a more considered approach from the Irish Government, Ursula would have looked the other way. Whatever she thinks of Hogan this is a major mess for the Commission which they would have gladly veered away from if they could have.

So what is it now?

You reckon von der Leyen was listening to Liveline?

You reckon she's of such poor quality she was swayed by "baying mobs"?

FrancieBrady

First Up wrote: »

It is a very serious setback, for which Hogan shoulders most of the blame. (His accomplices are the event organisers and the hotel in Clifden but he broke too many rules - written or not.)

But it is potentially a lot bigger setback to Ireland than just him. Getting the Trade portfolio for an Irish commissioner was the culmination of years of hard and smart work by politicians and officials. It was recognition of the track record of previous Irish commissioners and officials (including Hogan) and the awareness in the Commission and across the EU of Ireland's commitment to the EU, as well as our exposure from Brexit. It was a diplomatic triumph.

So his fall marks a huge waste of effort; it negates years of good work and could seriously weaken our position in trading with the UK.

Yet this thread is made up of juvenile taunts, parish pump political point scoring, re-hashing of water charges and naked begrudgery of someone in a good job. Hardly a single reference to the bigger picture or any concern for what happens next.

It is pathetic and depressing to see Ireland at its ignorant, miserable worst.

He...that's Phil Hogan, lied to his boss several times. What choice was she given...ignore it?

That is his fault, nobody else's.