PHIL HOGAN NEEDS TO RESIGN.

ShamNNspace

Muahahaha wrote: »

Very cunning Sham, are you Bertie in disguise Or Leo could put Coveney and Helen McEntee together as she has experience in Brussels carrying around Simons briefcase and standing behind him for pieces to camera.
^^^^
Leo may turn out to be even more cunning than the Drumcondra Dodger in the end, time will tell

stockshares

The punishment has been severe enough on Phil. Please stop.
https://twitter.com/irishexaminer/status/1299289534245543936?s=19

breadmonster

stockshares wrote: »

The punishment has been severe enough on Phil. Please stop.
https://twitter.com/irishexaminer/status/1299289534245543936?s=19

negotiation of billion dollar trade deals, very cheap got him for a song bargain

wrangler

jm08 wrote: »

Well I had full confidence in him as an EU Trade Commissioner.

Clare Daly was on Prime Time last night where she explained that in Brussels MEPs get tested and so are free to move around and travel back and forth to their own country. I imagine the situation is similar for the Commission. Even she was saying that its easy to understand why Hogan thought he was ok as he had been getting Covid tested. I suppose thats why Ursula vdl was warning all EU staff and MPs to check out and abide by local rules in countries that they are visiting.

You'd imagine the Commision would trump any countries regulations, It's a pity Hogan couldn't find those guidelines that Clare was referring to.
Clare would be no friend of Hogans

joseywhales

kerry cow wrote: »

arrogance was Phil's down fall , he didn't have popular support , maybe he though he was Robin hood in his mind , but he has such a thick head , in the clouds , that he could not relate to the people of ireland , they had no sympathy for him .
yes people should and are entitled to has a higher standing in the community for all the hard work they do and the wages and education they have , but really it has to be managed , in all circumstances , and be kind , on a level with the ordinary people , especially when circumstances require .
also there are people out there who dont know there place in society , there are many jumps on the ladder , and some jump ups too get under my nerve .
I know millionaire who are so modest you wont even know , and I know a thousand more who haven't a bean , but have nice clothes ,car and holidays but await the pay cheque each week ,but are totally up their own ass,




quinn wasn't too big to fail , and big phil wasn't either

This is madness, wealth is not a reason to venerate another person and I don't think phil Hogan or anyone else expects that. This inferiority complex is all in your head. People want money so they can buy things, usually no other reason, until you get into the billions, then it is legacy.

Similarly education, most people genuinely just enjoy understanding the world, that is the primary reason people are motivated to learn. Money and security does apply here but good luck to anyone who forces themselves through 6 years of medicine followed by 5 years as a junior doctor working 80 hours a week for status, if they have done this I have nothing but sympathy. Most people just like to be challenged.

Medicine as an example here as it is often cited as some kind of goal for people's children. Same applies to all "status" careers.

Jizique

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I thought she was very reasonable on Hogan and on a prospective replacement tbh.

She definite came across mellower than I expected; maybe the continental lifestyle suits her

thelad95

stockshares wrote: »

The punishment has been severe enough on Phil. Please stop.
https://twitter.com/irishexaminer/status/1299289534245543936?s=19

I never understand the shaming of people in high positions who for whatever reason have been sacked/stepped aside and who then receive what they're contractually entitled to thereafter.

The witch hunt over him has been ridiculous. I feel like the majority of people calling for his head didn't even know what we did or the strategic importance of his position.

The cancel culture lefties have gotten their way, probably time to just leave him retire in peace now maybe?

For what it's worth by the way I believe he should have resigned and I don't for one second believe that he thought his "itinerary" complied with HSE guidelines, he was simply doing as he pleased and that is patently clear.

However, the ensuing witch hunt has been cruel and should surely now end now that they have their man.

1641

stockshares wrote: »

The punishment has been severe enough on Phil. Please stop.
https://twitter.com/irishexaminer/status/1299289534245543936?s=19

Which proves the point. There is very little punishment involved for Phil. It is ourselves we have punished by losing the Trade Commissionership at this time. I don't think anyone is too concerned about Phil personally.

Zebra3

thelad95 wrote: »

I never understand the shaming of people in high positions who for whatever reason have been sacked/stepped aside and who then receive what they're contractually entitled to thereafter.

Because a lot of what they are "contractually entitled" to is grotesque and is paid by us.

Especially this sh1t whereby politicians here get paid their pensions well in advance of the age the rest of us do.

Look what happened with the GE here in 2011.

FF ministers could announce their retirement and lap up instantaneous pensions of six figures per annum.

If they'd managed to somehow be re-elected and be in opposition they'd have been on 89k a year.

A system like that is quite simply corrupt.

fly_agaric

1641 wrote: »

There is very little punishment involved for Phil.

I dunno. He breached our Covid-19 recommendations, he committed a road traffic offence. He did not fully apologise for it quickly, and then he was evasive afterwards when asked to account for himself.
As a result he has had to resign. I think that is a fairly high cost, but not unprecedented for someone in a public service position who is and should be held to a high standard.

Gonna set the cat among the pigeons saying this but I do wonder if any of the witch finders (not just here, talking generally) have been angry about or criticisied the Covid-19 public health regulations? :pac:

I wonder if they've flouted any or maybe broken with the spirit of them when they feel they can get away with it.

They are mostly honour based, with few real teeth so if your social circle, family etc. give you the all clear on it...well you aren't actually going to be punished. You can declaim on others who will be with a mostly free conscience I suppose. One rule me, another for thee doesn't end with politicians.

Muahahaha

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I heaved a sigh of relief that VDL resolved this.
Imagine the crisis here had she allowed him to stay on (I didn't believe he truly fell on his own sword btw)
A commissioner we had no confidence in? Disaster really.
Phil drove into the cul de sac himself and there was no reverse in the car when he continued to lie. It's as simple as that.
We have to dust ourselves down now and get on with it thanks to a rogue FG member.

Thats what it all comes down to, his own arrogance just coudnt let him tell the truth. Had he done that there was a way out for him. But instead he doubled down and lied some more.

He left Ursula in an impossible position, she herself would have been politically weakened to leave in situ a Commissioner who had literally lied to her. The Roscommon trip came out after Phil had submitted his 20 page document which was supposed to be the full and unfettered truth. So at that point Ursula knows he has lied again and now knows that she will look like an absolute mug in the EU if she backs him and then the Irish media uncover yet more escapades of his grand tour of Ireland. If she can't 100% trust her employees to tell the truth then they have to go or else the knives start to come out for her.

And lets not forget that Leo himself twisted the knife and left Ursula in an impossible position. This all comes down to Phil Hogan and Fine Gael, they themselves shot themselves in the foot.

joseywhales

I suspect the motivation is more about expressing anger at the regulations in the first place, trying to discredit them and some others who basically have an inferiority complex.

If it was one rule for them and the same rule for us, how many of us would have had to resign?

thelad95

Zebra3 wrote: »

Because a lot of what they are "contractually entitled" to is grotesque and is paid by us.

Especially this sh1t whereby politicians here get paid their pensions well in advance of the age the rest of us do.

Look what happened with the GE here in 2011.

FF ministers could announce their retirement and lap up instantaneous pensions of six figures per annum.

If they'd managed to somehow be re-elected and be in opposition they'd have been on 89k a year.

A system like that is quite simply corrupt.

In terms of taxpayers funds it's not grotesque, it's a high responsibility position with a high salary and as a result, a high severance payment.

That's life unfortunately.

thelad95

Muahahaha wrote: »

Thats what it all comes down to, his own arrogance just coudnt let him tell the truth. Had he done that there was a way out for him. But instead he doubled down and lied some more.

He left Ursula in an impossible position, she herself would have been politically weakened to leave in situ a Commissioner who had literally lied to her. The Roscommon trip came out after Phil had submitted his 20 page document which was supposed to be the full and unfettered truth. So at that point Ursula knows he has lied again and now knows that she will look like an absolute mug in the EU if she backs him and then the Irish media uncover yet more escapades of his grand tour of Ireland. If she can't 100% trust her employees to tell the truth then they have to go or else the knives start to come out for her.

And lets not forget that Leo himself twisted the knife and left Ursula in an impossible position. This all comes down to Phil Hogan and Fine Gael, they themselves shot themselves in the foot.

Not sure if it's been made completely transparent but I don't doubt that Ursula gave him the "you should resign while you still have a choice because it looks like I'll have to dismiss you otherwise" speech.

wrangler

fly_agaric wrote: »

I dunno. He breached our Covid-19 recommendations, he committed a road traffic offence. He did not fully apologise for it quickly, and then he was evasive afterwards when asked to account for himself.
As a result he has had to resign. I think that is a fairly high cost, but not unprecedented for someone in a public service position who is and should be held to a high standard.

Gonna set the cat among the pigeons saying this but I do wonder if any of the witch finders (not just here, talking generally) have been angry about or criticisied the Covid-19 public health regulations? :pac:

I wonder if they've flouted any or maybe broken with the spirit of them when they feel they can get away with it.

They are mostly honour based, with few real teeth so if your social circle, family etc. give you the all clear on it...well you aren't actually going to be punished. You can declaim on others who will be with a mostly free conscience I suppose. One rule me, another for thee doesn't end with politicians.

All so true, people know they can't be touched for house parties so they continue, some of the guests last week having children going to school .
Every positive case every day is because somebody acted the brat

1641

fly_agaric wrote: »

Gonna set the cat among the pigeons saying this but I do wonder if any of the witch finders (not just here, talking generally) have been angry about or criticisied the Covid-19 public health regulations? :pac:

I wonder if they've flouted any or maybe broken with the spirit of them when they feel they can get away with it.

They are mostly honour based, with few real teeth so if your social circle, family etc. give you the all clear on it...well you aren't actually going to be punished. You can declaim on others who will be with a mostly free conscience I suppose. One rule me, another for thee doesn't end with politicians.

In general terms I agree with you -the people screaming about cancelling public figures while not opening there own lives up for scrutiny.

But in this instance I think public figures do have an obligation to lead by example and Hogan performed poorly in this regard. I think public anger is understandable. But the government running with this to pressurise him out of the Trade Commissionship is very short-sighted and narrowly self-serving. While the jubilation about him losing the job is absolutely bonkers. It is not about him personally. The loss of the Commissionship at this particular point in time hurts Ireland inc. far more than it hurts Hogan. And it is self-inflicted.

fly_agaric

wrangler wrote: »

All so true, people know they can't be touched for house parties so they continue, some of the guests last week having children going to school .
Every positive case every day is because somebody acted the brat

Don't know if I'd agree with "every positive case every day is because somebody acted the brat" as this is somewhat unfair and being overly harsh. You may pick it up through bad luck or unavoidable situations (e.g. a cluster pops up in your workplace or someone brings it into your household and everyone gets it as it is very contagious).

It's also shaming people who get it, which is not good either as we ideally want everyone to admit/accept when they might have it (even if they only feel the mild flu/cold type symptoms) + isolate and get tested (edit: and give their recent close contacts for tracing).

But yes you are right, it would obviously spread less if all guidelines were followed by everyone.

jm08

wrangler wrote: »

You'd imagine the Commision would trump any countries regulations, It's a pity Hogan couldn't find those guidelines that Clare was referring to.
Clare would be no friend of Hogans

Its a pity Michael Martin/Leo Varadkar didn't save him by saying that he has diplomatic status (similar status to MEPs in Brussels) and the fact that he was tested negative to Covid he didn't have to self isolate (like the way Michael Martin didn't have to isolate because he got tested).


Hogan mentioned that he had looked up the website which states that if you get tested covid-free you are free to go provided you were tested in Ireland. He may have been tested in Belgium, but didn't mention it because it specifically states being tested in Ireland.



How inept are this Government?

wrangler

fly_agaric wrote: »

Don't know if I'd agree with "every positive case every day is because somebody acted the brat" as this is somewhat unfair and being overly harsh. You may pick it up through bad luck or unavoidable situations (e.g. a cluster pops up in your workplace or someone brings it into your household and everyone gets it as it is very contagious).

It's also shaming people who get it, which is not good either as we ideally want everyone to admit/accept when they might have it (even if they only feel the mild flu/cold type symptoms) + isolate and get tested (edit: and give their recent close contacts for tracing).
But yes you are right, it would obviously spread less if all guidelines were followed by everyone.

We know now how it spreads, The positives should not be increasing.
And then we fire Phil Hogan because he ''might'' have spread it.

jm08

Zebra3 wrote: »

Because a lot of what they are "contractually entitled" to is grotesque and is paid by us.

Especially this sh1t whereby politicians here get paid their pensions well in advance of the age the rest of us do.

Look what happened with the GE here in 2011.

FF ministers could announce their retirement and lap up instantaneous pensions of six figures per annum.

If they'd managed to somehow be re-elected and be in opposition they'd have been on 89k a year.

A system like that is quite simply corrupt.

If you didn't have that kind of set-up, no one except the very wealthy could go into politics because there is a chance you lose your career every 4 years and there are not that many jobs going in politics.


FYI - these are the kind of deals that Hogan was involved in. The Japan-EU deal was particularly good for Ireland because of the reduction of tariffs on agri foods:

Dairy and other food products are among the EU's biggest exports to Japan and the progressive reduction of nearly €1bn of tariffs - nearly 40% on beef, up to 30% on chocolate, 15% on wine and up to 40% on cheese - could boost exports and create jobs.

Martin Selmyr credited Hogan with that one as Agriculture Commissioner.

Plumbthedepths

jm08 wrote: »

If you didn't have that kind of set-up, no one except the very wealthy could go into politics because there is a chance you lose your career every 4 years and there are not that many jobs going in politics.


FYI - these are the kind of deals that Hogan was involved in. The Japan-EU deal was particularly good for Ireland because of the reduction of tariffs on agri foods:





Martin Selmyr credited Hogan with that one as Agriculture Commissioner.

You still can't bring yourself to admit Hogan's downfall was his own doing. Loyalty is good, blind loyalty is dangerous.

Hawthorn Tree

The primary expectation I have for senior managers, senior public servants or politicians is very simple....good judgement.

Did Phil show good judgement at any point during the Clifden Party saga? Absolutely not.

1641

Hawthorn Tree wrote: »

The primary expectation I have for senior managers, senior public servants or politicians is very simple....good judgement.

Did Phil show good judgement at any point during the Clifden Party saga? Absolutely not.

And did the Government show good judgement by publicly pressurising the Commission over Hogan - and thereby losing an important commissionership at a vital time? Absolutely not.



Is it good judgement to punish ourselves collectively by punishing Hogan personnally for his poor judgement? Absolutely not.

wrangler

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

You still can't bring yourself to admit Hogan's downfall was his own doing. Loyalty is good, blind loyalty is dangerous.

Blind lynch mobs are worse

Plumbthedepths

wrangler wrote: »

Blind lynch mobs are worse

No lynch mobs, but if the populace is expected to follow the rules those who we place over us to enact laws to govern us surely should themselves be subject to these same rules.
Hogan btw broke the trust he had with his boss by lying about his movements. She is on record from some time back saying all EU officials and staff need to follow local/national guidelines, restrictions of where they travel too.
I suspect had Hogan been honest and explained his movements he may still be in the job. However the time honoured trait of brazening it out doesn't work the same in Europe as it does in Ireland.

Zebra3

thelad95 wrote: »

In terms of taxpayers funds it's not grotesque, it's a high responsibility position with a high salary and as a result, a high severance payment.

That's life unfortunately.

I'm not referring to Hogan's case specifically, but the case whereby these elites get their pensions instantly and the rest of us need to wait til 68 or so.

Discrimination.

Castlekeeper

1641 wrote: »

And did the Government show good judgement by publicly pressurising the Commission over Hogan - and thereby losing an important commissionership at a vital time? Absolutely not.



Is it good judgement to punish ourselves collectively by punishing Hogan personnally for his poor judgement? Absolutely not.

Time will tell soon enough, he hasn't come across as the most talented out of this.

Zebra3

jm08 wrote: »

If you didn't have that kind of set-up, no one except the very wealthy could go into politics because there is a chance you lose your career every 4 years and there are not that many jobs going in politics.

Nonsense.

It's pigs at the trough stuff.

Nobody works in one job for life any more and we're always being told our politicians are so talented so there's absolutely no need for them to be paid a pension before the regular retirement age.

I left my job after 15 years and I didn't get a pension for the rest of my life.

You know what I did? I got out there and got another one.

Muahahaha

thelad95 wrote: »

Not sure if it's been made completely transparent but I don't doubt that Ursula gave him the "you should resign while you still have a choice because it looks like I'll have to dismiss you otherwise" speech.

ah yeah, Id say she was left with little choice. He put her in a position where she would have been risking her own career by backing him. He told her lies so she wasnt putting herself on the line for him at that stage in case more scandal emerged.

1641 wrote: »

IBut the government running with this to pressurise him out of the Trade Commissionship is very short-sighted and narrowly self-serving.

You're missing something here, the government was put in a complete Catch 22 situation by Phils lies. Had they backed him and we later need a second national lockdown this winter loads of people would just ignore it and the virus would spread even further.

If they expressed confidence in Hogan then they would have completely undermined 6 months of public health policy in doing so. Hogans actions tied their hands, the alternative of letting him off the hook would have been detrimental to public health.

jm08

Muahahaha wrote: »

ah yeah, Id say she was left with little choice. He put her in a position where she would have been risking her own career by backing him. He told her lies so she wasnt putting herself on the line for him at that stage in case more scandal emerged.

You're missing something here, the government was put in a complete Catch 22 situation by Phils lies. Had they backed him and we later need a second national lockdown this winter loads of people would just ignore it and the virus would spread even further.

If they expressed confidence in Hogan then they would have completely undermined 6 months of public health policy in doing so. Hogans actions tied their hands, the alternative of letting him off the hook would have been detrimental to public health.

According to Tony Connolly, they think everyone is bonkers in Ireland to throw away such a powerful portfolio.


https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2020/0827/1161558-hogan-connelly-analysis/

Many observers in Europe cannot quite believe how a golf dinner in Clifden exploded in so many people’s faces and culminated in Ireland cold shouldering its man in Brussels, and potentially losing a highly coveted portfolio. In Brussels officials watched the debate in Ireland and could see it was entirely one-sided. One senior official noted there was hardly a single article supporting Hogan. Would this have happened in another member state if politicians had been found to have breached the rules? A hard question to answer.

Hogan was pressurised to withdraw from WTO job.

Having laboured over the composition of her College of Commissioners last autumn, Ursula von der Leyen was significantly put out by Hogan’s bid to leave Brussels and take up the job as director general of the WTO. Under pressure, Hogan dropped his bid and the president was spared the pain of a politically hazardous reshuffle, given how prized his portfolio is to the larger member states.

And his role in Brexit.

His role in Brexit can neither be overstated nor understated. Michel Barnier remains the frontline negotiator, but he and Hogan have been close confidants, and no-one should underestimate the role Hogan played in ensuring that the Irish border dilemma was understood in Brussels and that the interests of one small country on the periphery of Europe were protected to the very end.
It was Hogan who ensured that Ireland understood that its border concerns needed to be outsourced to Brussel and Barnier’s Article 50 Taskforce. Until his intervention in an Irish Times op-ed in January 2017, some in Dublin believed the issue could be resolved bilaterally with the UK.
Hogan headed up the powerful Directorate General for Trade. Scores of his staff have been deployed in the future relationship negotiations with the UK, meaning he had a wealth of expertise on hand. Diplomats say he also had close contacts in London, and acted as a conduit for officials on both side when necessary.

I wonder will he end up working for the Brits? They hired former Australian PM, Tony Abbott as a Trade Ambassador last week. Probably he has some sort of clause in his contract that will prevent him from working for anyone else for a while.



https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2020/0827/1161558-hogan-connelly-analysis/