PHIL HOGAN NEEDS TO RESIGN.

stockshares

Muahahaha wrote: »

For me if he didnt know then it is incompetence but not really on behalf of Martin himself- the blame would lie with his six special advisors who are his eyes and ears. They are supposed to know everything that is going on in the party and to be feeding it back to him. He also has a small army of civil servants working for him in the Dept of the Taoiseach. He probably gets hundreds of emails a day but he also has a lot of people there to monitor them and respond.

Id be surprised if the golf event was never mentioned to Martin at some sort of daily briefing. As leader of his party he would be expected to know about social events his party is involved in, even if he doesnt intend going to them himself.



I wonder was that the George Foreman grill that big Phil won? I could just imagine the smirk on Hogans face after having won a George Foreman grill that Fianna Fail paid for followed by the back slapping and yahooing from his Fine Gael colleagues :rolleyes:

If Martin's special advisors and civil servants didn't know then he has to be worried about who he has working for him and if they did know and kept it from him that's even worse.

He's in charge and like a Football Manager you can't blame the players when it goes wrong.

wrangler

stockshares wrote: »

If Martin's special advisors and civil servants didn't know then he has to be worried about who he has working for him and if they did know and kept it from him that's even worse.

He's in charge and like a Football Manager you can't blame the players when it goes wrong.

The fact that public servants can't be sacked has to mean there's a lot of dead wood around him, he probably brings in his own pets and still has to retain the ones that are there. Anything the civil service has a hand in now is doomed

elperello

yaboya1 wrote: »

They don't say that.

stockshares wrote: »

It's a twist on the original relevant to politics. There are no friends

From Caesars time. "Et Tu Brute."

Atm Martin's biggest enemy apart from himself is Varadkar who is like the Sword of Damocles hanging over his head at every joint interview and press conference

What they do say is "keep your friends close and your enemies closer".

Most likely Machiavelli but as it's not such a unique concept possibly said by others over the centuries.

Smart and all he as was Machiavelli like Phil Hogan ended his career in a bit of a fix.

Still too many "ifs" and not enough hard facts to string up MM.......yet!

Psychiatric Patrick

stockshares wrote: »

They weren't horrified by it. They allowed it. They were horrified people found out about it.

Are you saying Martin and Varadkar knew the dinner was happening beforehand?

Mrcaramelchoc

Psychiatric Patrick wrote: »

Are you saying Martin and Varadkar knew the dinner was happening beforehand?

Of course they did.they would have got an invite.leo said he was on leave.i don't know about mm.

Psychiatric Patrick

wrangler wrote: »

I don't have any opinion any more as to whether or not to obey the guidelines.
There's thousands acting the brat and not obeying as evidenced by the numbers being infected so guidelines are looking fairly pointless now.

All you can do is obey the rules yourself and try to mortify others into doing when near you.

In Dunnes today I was saying “two metres please” every few minutes and only one other customer bedsides myself was waiting for people to move before going for a shelf.

I pointed it out to someone in management

Scoondal

stockshares wrote: »

It's a twist on the original relevant to politics. There are no friends

From Caesars time. "Et Tu Brute."

Atm Martin's biggest enemy apart from himself is Varadkar who is like the Sword of Damocles hanging over his head at every joint interview and press conference

Or the other saying " keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer".

Psychiatric Patrick

Mrcaramelchoc wrote: »

Of course they did.they would have got an invite.leo said he was on leave.i don't know about mm.

That is the golf.

Doesn’t mean they knew the dinner was happening

Happydays2020

Hogan affair displays Irish exceptionalism at its worst
Dublin has blundered by allowing parochialism to dominate its engagement in European affairs
Eoin Drea
It’s difficult to explain the mindset of the vast majority of Irish people working in the Brussels EU bubble. But, no matter what their position – within the European institutions, think tanks or lobbyists – there is always an underlying feeling that deep down we are all trying to work in Ireland’s best interests.
It’s a feeling that even stretches beyond party political divides and complements the official work undertaken in the Permanent Representation of Ireland.
For we are a small country, practically minuscule in a huge European political landscape. That’s why it’s so important to understand that the forced resignation of Phil Hogan – forced by Dublin, not Brussels – has significant long-term consequences for Ireland’s role in the European Union. And these consequences will be hugely negative.
Viewed from a European context, there is disbelief that Ireland would jettison its respected and successful trade commissioner. That is not to downplay his actions or minimise the impact of the pandemic on Ireland, but a simple reflection of how important Hogan was in the EU hierarchy.
In practical terms, he had just launched a review of EU trade policy which will play a large part in guiding Europe’s (and Ireland’s) economic fate for the next decade. He was an influential presence in the background of the ongoing Brexit talks and a totem pole for representing Irish interests in Brussels.
Rehabilitated reputation
The response from non-Irish EU officials and lawmakers has been remarkably consistent (an unlikely occurrence in itself) in praising Hogan’s contribution to achievements as diverse as the EU-Japan trade deal and the soya beans deal brokered with the United States. MEPs across all parties feel his punishment was a totally disproportionate response to his behaviour while in Ireland. There are three further points which have gone totally unreported in Ireland but which need to be highlighted from a Brussels perspective.
The first is that Phil Hogan played a major role in the rehabilitation of Ireland’s reputation in Brussels following Dublin’s increasingly dismissive attitude towards the EU during the 2000s, including ignoring its cautions on our budget policy. This was the decade which culminated with our national bankruptcy and subsequent financial bailout in 2010.
Together with Enda Kenny, Hogan played a key role in re-establishing a constructive Irish relationship with Brussels. This was a relationship that badly needed mending following the unremarkable terms as commissioners served by Charlie McCreevy and Máire Geoghegan-Quinn. And this was rewarded in Brussels by portfolios of declining real importance and clout.
Second, and notwithstanding the pro-EU media hype surrounding the modern Fine Gael party, Ireland is increasingly seen as a problem child in Brussels.
Although this is largely obscured by Ireland’s central role in the ongoing Brexit talks, Dublin’s inability to evolve a position beyond opposition to any further forms of digital/financial services taxation or corporate tax reform has forced Ireland on the outside of many important conversations.
Hogan was the only Irish policymaker who offered a clear antidote to this Irish parochialism. By clearly advocating a less protectionist view (against vested interests in many larger EU member states), he came to represent a more open vision for Europe’s place in the world, and for Ireland’s role in Europe.
Detrimental policies
The loss of this vision should not be underestimated. It will embolden more protectionist member states, such as France, to more actively pursue trade policies that will be detrimental to Ireland’s long-run economic sustainability. It will encourage other states, such as Italy and Germany, to more quickly pursue deeper monetary integration which will also challenge Ireland’s existing economic model. No country in Europe willingly gives up a trade commissioner. From a Brussels perspective, Ireland has literally gone kamikaze on its own economic interests.
Third, Hogan’s resignation also serves to further illustrate the growing gap between Ireland and the rest of the EU, differences which are now also evident in policies to tackle coronavirus.
Viewed from afar, Ireland seems stuck behind a “Celtic curtain” obsessing about case numbers in Britain and the United States. Much of continental Europe has understood the trade-off between allowing society to function as close to normal as possible and an increased (but manageable) level of virus cases.
Here in Flanders, my daughter returned to school in May, free testing for those who want it is available and international travel is restricted (but allowed) based on the latest virus data available.
In Ireland, the Government’s unease at a health system with very limited capacity has made Irish people afraid of travel, afraid of tourists, seemingly afraid of themselves. Instead of utilising best-practice examples from around Europe, Ireland has largely ignored EU guidelines for safely restarting international travel.
This is Irish exceptionalism of the worst kind. And by allowing the parochialism of Ireland’s domestic politics to dominate its engagement in European affairs,
Dublin has blundered badly. It may take us a generation in Brussels to repair this damage.
Eoin Drea is a researcher at the Wilfried Martens Centre, the official think tank of the European People’s Party of which Fine Gael is a member

Happydays2020

Psychiatric Patrick wrote: »

All you can do is obey the rules yourself and try to mortify others into doing when near you.

In Dunnes today I was saying “two metres please” every few minutes and only one other customer bedsides myself was waiting for people to move before going for a shelf.

I pointed it out to someone in management

Do you hang around the shelves for 15 mins? Do they?

I have been shopping During the virus for 6 months at this stage and overall people are very considerate and conscious of other people in a reasonable way.

zerosugarbuzz

Psychiatric Patrick wrote: »

All you can do is obey the rules yourself and try to mortify others into doing when near you.

In Dunnes today I was saying “two metres please” every few minutes and only one other customer bedsides myself was waiting for people to move before going for a shelf.

I pointed it out to someone in management

Did you tell them your name? That should help keep them away 🀣

Psychiatric Patrick

Happydays2020 wrote: »

Do you hang around the shelves for 15 mins? Do they?

I have been shopping During the virus for 6 months at this stage and overall people are very considerate and conscious of other people in a reasonable way.

You misunderstand.

I didn’t say people are staying at the shelves for 15 minutes. I said that I saw only one other than myself wait until a person moved on before going to that shelf. Other people are reverting to the normal pre-lockdown ways of shopping.

Up until recently most people were keeping the 2 metre distance.


Now it is only done at the checkouts because the girls will tell people they are too close. The girls also have to wipe down the their whole station because a customer complained a few weeks ago. Yet management is making no effort to enforce the 2 metre (madness that people need to told)

In response to you previous post (thought it better to ask here than quote such a long statement)

Do you work in Brussels yourself? It isn’t clear as sometimes it seems you are speaking of direct experience and other times as though it was you’ve been told by people who work there.

Tony Connelly’s article last week said that many EU officials were very unhappy the mess Hogan had made (no mention they unhappy with the fuss the government was making).

Was the decision not up to the commission president? (I cannot spell her name). People was clucking last week that it wasn’t up to the Irish government and some said they were whirs out of themselves. Then suddenly Hogan is gone and it the Irish government that did it.

It is either way or the other - it cannot be both.

It is incredibly difficult to sack a commissioner and wrong doing and law breaking aside, Hogan is a smug and arrogant (no one can deny this) if he didn’t want to resign and even if his boss wanted him gone he could stay put.

How do you know that he didn’t resign because he knew he was getting sacked?

Psychiatric Patrick

zerosugarbuzz wrote: »

Did you tell them your name? That should help keep them away 🀣

On public transport I used to break out into song if I didn’t like the cut of the person who sat next to me or was headed for the seat.

Only the elderly and the pregnant get got a pass.

Happydays2020

Psychiatric Patrick wrote: »

You misunderstand.

I didn’t say people are staying at the shelves for 15 minutes. I said that I saw only one other than myself wait until a person moved on before going to that shelf. Other people are reverting to the normal pre-lockdown ways of shopping.

Up until recently most people were keeping the 2 metre distance.


Now it is only done at the checkouts because the girls will tell people they are too close. The girls also have to wipe down the their whole station because a customer complained a few weeks ago. Yet management is making no effort to enforce the 2 metre (madness that people need to told)

In response to you previous post (thought it better to ask here than quote such a long statement)

Do you work in Brussels yourself? It isn’t clear as sometimes it seems you are speaking of direct experience and other times as though it was you’ve been told by people who work there.

Tony Connelly’s article last week said that many EU officials were very unhappy the mess Hogan had made (no mention they unhappy with the fuss the government was making).

Was the decision not up to the commission president? (I cannot spell her name). People was clucking last week that it wasn’t up to the Irish government and some said they were whirs out of themselves. Then suddenly Hogan is gone and it the Irish government that did it.

It is either way or the other - it cannot be both.

It is incredibly difficult to sack a commissioner and wrong doing and law breaking aside, Hogan is a smug and arrogant (no one can deny this) if he didn’t want to resign and even if his boss wanted him gone he could stay put.

How do you know that he didn’t resign because he knew he was getting sacked?

Apologies. That was an article from the Irish Times. Did not copy very well. That person works in Brussels.

I do read widely and try to understand different perspectives.

My personal view on the Hogan affair is that the punishment was disproportionate to the crime.

I think we have received a lot of mixed messaging on rules for many months after a great and coherent first response in March. I think we need to find a way to live with this which manages risk and I think we should have testing at the airport even if that means a reasonable surcharge on tickets to cover costs.

fly_agaric

Happydays2020 wrote: »

The first is that Phil Hogan played a major role in the rehabilitation of Ireland’s reputation in Brussels following Dublin’s increasingly dismissive attitude towards the EU during the 2000s, including ignoring its cautions on our budget policy. This was the decade which culminated with our national bankruptcy and subsequent financial bailout in 2010.

That is interesting. I'd sort of forgotten that period but I do remember you'd sometimes have newspaper articles here lecturing the Germans about their economic policy + how they should take lessons and instructions from us (German economy was growing quite slowly after reintegration of East Germany, ours was going up like a rocket - then exploded later on!).
All that "closer to Boston than Berlin" guff.

Psychiatric Patrick

Happydays2020 wrote: »

Apologies. That was an article from the Irish Times. Did not copy very well. That person works in Brussels.

I do read widely and try to understand different perspectives.

Okay, that makes more sense now.

Happydays2020 wrote: »

My personal view on the Hogan affair is that the punishment was disproportionate to the crime.

Can it even be classed as a punishment?

Happydays2020 wrote: »

I think we have received a lot of mixed messaging on rules for many months after a great and coherent first response in March. I think we need to find a way to live with this which manages risk and I think we should have testing at the airport even if that means a reasonable surcharge on tickets to cover costs.

I haven't seen any mixed messages on the Covid rules for the government. I was hearing a lot of mixed up people talking about it like my sisters' "personal interpretations". Maybe people in different circumstances just encounter less problems than others.

However there is no way in hell you will get me to believe there was "mixed messages" regarding Clifden.

The Taoiseach had announced the new restrictions. That means it takes effect straight away. There is no "business as usual until we get a signed document" - looking for loopholes in the virus containment rules - that is just stupidity. How many movies and Tv sows have we seen were some dense jack hole tries to break out of the containment zone to be with his family even though he has a virus. I used to think those nonsense because no one would do that. How wrong I was.

Th guests even bitched and moaned to staff that the seating and partition were affecting there enjoyment.

what I want to know what is going to happen to the rest of them?

juno10353

crossman47 wrote: »

It wasn't organised by the government. In fact they were horrified by it.

Didn't they donate prizes!

juno10353

elperello wrote: »

Of course they did.

Both of them are out of the Government game so that doesn't help us in proving Government knew.

It is widely accepted that they left and did not attend the dinner.

I would find it interesting to know did they depart directly from the golf club or go to the hotel and then leave.

If they did go to the hotel what did they do there?
Did they sign in for covid tracing purposes?
Did they have a drink and if so did they have a €9 meal?

So many questions.

Or were they with the 60 others in the Abbeyglen Castle, who ALLEGEDLY were joined by the 81 later that night, and previous night.

elperello

juno10353 wrote: »

Didn't they donate prizes!

It has been mentioned previously that Fianna Fail sponsored a prize to the tune of €80.

If there was any question of the Government providing prizes or sponsorship I suppose it would have come out by now.

Never too late if anyone has proof.

elperello

juno10353 wrote: »

Or were they with the 60 others in the Abbeyglen Castle, who ALLEGEDLY were joined by the 81 later that night, and previous night.

Still waiting to get any feedback on that too.

Psychiatric Patrick

juno10353 wrote: »

Didn't they donate prizes!

Prizes for the golf game maybe. That was not violating the restrictions.

I assume there was not prizes for eating the dinner.

Hawthorn Tree

juno10353 wrote: »

Or were they with the 60 others in the Abbeyglen Castle, who ALLEGEDLY were joined by the 81 later that night, and previous night.

I did hear there was a drinks reception in the Abbeyglen the night before. Not sure why it hasn't been reported.

Psychiatric Patrick

Hawthorn Tree wrote: »

I did hear there was a drinks reception in the Abbeyglen the night before. Not sure why it hasn't been reported.

Didn't a couple the others involved already comment on it?

stockshares

juno10353 wrote: »

Or were they with the 60 others in the Abbeyglen Castle, who ALLEGEDLY were joined by the 81 later that night, and previous night.

elperello wrote: »

Still waiting to get any feedback on that too.

Hawthorn Tree wrote: »

I did hear there was a drinks reception in the Abbeyglen the night before. Not sure why it hasn't been reported.

I think Noel Grealish denied this to a local reporter.

Muahahaha

juno10353 wrote: »

Didn't they donate prizes!

They sure did and Big Phil walked off chuffed with his brand new lean, mean fat-reducing grilling machine.

Stay classy FF, stay classy :rolleyes:





The word is Big Phil won his George Foreman grill in the golf for having the longest drive

ShamNNspace

Hawthorn Tree wrote: »

I did hear there was a drinks reception in the Abbeyglen the night before. Not sure why it hasn't been reported.

Its all very hush hush old chap

Psychiatric Patrick

Is there any talk of the public representatives getting the sack or removed from the Dail/he councils.

Hogan went around the country doing it, but they all spat in the faces of people.

jm08

Psychiatric Patrick wrote: »

Is there any talk of the public representatives getting the sack or removed from the Dail/he councils.

Hogan went around the country doing it, but they all spat in the faces of people.

You can't sack a public representative. Only the people can take them out by not voting for them in the next election.


Hogan lost his job, Dara Calleary didn't. He was just demoted. I hope you are pleased now.

Psychiatric Patrick

jm08 wrote: »

You can't sack a public representative. Only the people can take them out by not voting for them in the next election.


Hogan lost his job, Dara Calleary didn't. He was just demoted. I hope you are pleased now.

No I'm not.


None of it should ever have happened but it will continue to do so with people like yourself making excuses for the behaviour. They all know they'll get away with it and their punishment being a hefty pay out.

Hope you are happy.

Castlekeeper

fly_agaric wrote: »

That is interesting. I'd sort of forgotten that period but I do remember you'd sometimes have newspaper articles here lecturing the Germans about their economic policy + how they should take lessons and instructions from us (German economy was growing quite slowly after reintegration of East Germany, ours was going up like a rocket - then exploded later on!).
All that "closer to Boston than Berlin" guff.

The Germans have a neck if they lecture anyone about economic policies. Their shenanigans devaluation pre Euro, entry was a major contributer to British dissatisfaction with the EU and fuelled the Brexit movement. This also caused a major wealth imbalance towards southern European countries and they doubled down on this by reinvesting their ill-gotten gains as we've seen here with the easy credit and unburnable bondholders of the boom. Subsequent to that they then insisted on policies such as mandatory military investment in Greece as part of the austerity and bail out programmes.
I'd consider myself pro EU culturally and I think the lack of European social integration and language skill development here have held us back majorly as a nation. All our institutions eg our health service gravitate towards and are significantly influenced by other (often neo-liberal) English speaking countries.