AC vs DC for charging without private parking

McGiver

graememk wrote:

Can 7kw single be used on the the same system as an 11kw three phase, or if you rock up with your single phase you will only get 3.6kw?

Nope. You'll get 3.7 kW on single-phase.

Yet, most of the Europe does 11 kW AC as the standard.

22 kW AC is fancy but wasteful - almost no cars can draw 22 kW, 11 kW is becoming the standard but many cars still do only 7.4 kW. (And the Japs are stuck in the middle of ages and do 6.6 kW - Nissan, Mazda,, Honda)
That's 50-66% available power wasted per connector. And that's exactly the reason why Europe doesn't use them en masse at all.

Because of the single-phase vs 3-phase issue in Europe they do 7.4 kW alongside 11 kW and sometimes 22 kW as well - you pick the one right for you (and the faster the more expensive).

Ecars used 22 kW everywhere because it's a lazy solution - it works for everyone, so it's kind of "universal", but it comes at a huge cost of wasted available power and significantly reduced number of connectors. Ecars could double or triple number of connectors immediately by using 11 kW AC or 7.4 kW & 11 kW AC combo without any power upgrades!

McGiver

redcup342 wrote:

I was going on Deployment costs and I was being quite generous on a wholesale purchasing cost on a DC Fast Charger, installation costs are quite high (QC45 would be the most common)

Deployment yeah. And capital costs too - AC are dirt cheap. Whereas DC is an order of magnitude more expensive.

Just litter cities with 7.4 / 11 / 22 kW AC and issue fixed.

McGiver

Some prices here.

https://chargingshop.eu/shop/?orderby=price-desc

AC posts are dirt cheap. The Etrels are fancy.

Now, I must say the 24 kW and 30 kW DC are looking good at 8k. It's still double the price, for half the connectors. So 2x22 kW AC is 3k and 2x 22 kW DC is 16k. Still 5 times more.

Will we see uptake of these lower power DC? Are they as reliable as the AC?

Advanced 30 kW DC solution. Brings one of the best investment / return ratio (unit economics) as it can deliver 300 kWh per 10 hour of operation a day or 9000 kWh a month! Couple that with low unit cost and cheap wallbox installation and you get best solution for shopping malls, office parkings and other public parkings lots with high car turnover.

NicolaMan

McGiver wrote: »

Some prices here.


Now, I must say the 24 kW and 30 kW DC are looking good at 8k. It's still double the price, for half the connectors. So 2x22 kW AC is 3k and 2x 22 kW DC is 16k. Still 5 times more.

If you are business you calculate two sides - cost and projected income
So while on cost side AC looks much better on projected income side - not so much...
Thing is that in theory AC has to deliver 22kW per socket, when in reality you can deliver 22kW only to Tesla S/X owners with double on-board chargers. Double on-board charger is optional when you buy car. How many of these we have on road. So in reality we have:
- say 10% customers with Tesla S/X who charge @22kW
- say 40% customers with 2020 Kona, Ionic, Teslas etc.. who charge @11kW
- say 40% customers with Leaf 2, BMW i3, 2019 Kona etc.. who charge @7kW
- say 10% customers with Leaf 1 who charge @3kW due to on-board charger limitation

Now, you calculate how many kWh you can deliver per day and you get different picture.

Whereas DC wallbox can deliver @30kW charging speed to ALL customers, no matter their car model and on-board charger

redcup342

NicolaMan wrote: »

If you are business you calculate two sides - cost and projected income
So while on cost side AC looks much better on projected income side - not so much...
Thing is that in theory AC has to deliver 22kW per socket, when in reality you can deliver 22kW only to Tesla S/X owners with double on-board chargers. Double on-board charger is optional when you buy car. How many of these we have on road. So in reality we have:
- say 10% customers with Tesla S/X who charge @22kW
- say 40% customers with 2020 Kona, Ionic, Teslas etc.. who charge @11kW
- say 40% customers with Leaf 2, BMW i3, 2019 Kona etc.. who charge @7kW
- say 10% customers with Leaf 1 who charge @3kW due to on-board charger limitation

Now, you calculate how many kWh you can deliver per day and you get different picture.

Whereas DC wallbox can deliver @30kW charging speed to ALL customers, no matter their car model and on-board charger

What is this, the USA ?

You set policy at a local and government level to develop the infrastructure needed for the population. If you let the infrastructure be purely driven by corporate profit you end up with an expensive and inefficient system which is bad for the consumer

What about everyone driving a Zoe ? They also charge at 22kw, that outsold the Tesla Model 3 in Europe, there's 300000 of them on European roads

And what exactly are you supposed to do if AC is dumped in favor of deploying DC only everywhere ?

Are they supposed to scrap all the Smart ED and EQs ?

Besides, in many countries they charge based on time not on kWh or a combination of both.

NicolaMan

redcup342 wrote: »

What is this, the USA ?

You set policy at a local and government level to develop the infrastructure needed for the population. If you let the infrastructure be purely driven by corporate profit you end up with an expensive and inefficient system which is bad for the consumer

What about everyone driving a Zoe ? They also charge at 22kw, that outsold the Tesla Model 3 in Europe, there's 300000 of them on European roads

And what exactly are you supposed to do if AC is dumped in favor of deploying DC only everywhere ?

Are they supposed to scrap all the Smart ED and EQs ?

Besides, in many countries they charge based on time not on kWh or a combination of both.

Different location needs different solution. My comment was not an intention to promote capitalism, it was based on pure logic..

High turnaround parkings as those beside Shopping malls, groceries would be inefficiently using their limited resource - parking lot by delivering 3kWh per hour to their customer who spends 30 min in their shop.

And yes, if you install 30kW DC charger by apartment house for night charging you get different inefficiency, where you unnecessarily would occupy output capacity for night charging, restricting others of limited resource - el capacity in the particular area..

DC Wallbox is superior solution - cheap to install and you deliver 30kW in price range 8k, whereas next level DC is 50kW with station cost starting 25k and installation probably ranging 5k as well.

liamog

McGiver wrote: »

Some prices here.

https://chargingshop.eu/shop/?orderby=price-desc

AC posts are dirt cheap. The Etrels are fancy.

We looked at the math in an earlier post, for a given 50kW of charging capacity it costs around 3.2c/kWh over the expected life cycle of the charger to install a DC charger over a bank of AC chargers. That was using a realtively expensive Efacec QC45 instead of something cheaper like a Tritium Veefil-RT. Maintenance costs would also be higher, but aren't going to make the cost 3x AC charging.

redcup342

NicolaMan wrote: »

Different location needs different solution. My comment was not an intention to promote capitalism, it was based on pure logic..

High turnaround parkings as those beside Shopping malls, groceries would be inefficiently using their limited resource - parking lot by delivering 3kWh per hour to their customer who spends 30 min in their shop.

And yes, if you install 30kW DC charger by apartment house for night charging you get different inefficiency, where you unnecessarily would occupy output capacity for night charging, restricting others of limited resource - el capacity in the particular area..

DC Wallbox is superior solution - cheap to install and you deliver 30kW in price range 8k, whereas next level DC is 50kW with station cost starting 25k and installation probably ranging 5k as well.

I think we were agreeing with each other just didn't realise.

That model is here already, many of the larger supermarkets / big box stores have 20kW DC Chargers, the problem is there is usually only 2 or 4 of them, whereas with the shopping centers usually have 30 or 40 AC points with a few Tesla Destination chargers as well.

For some reason I've never gotten the full 20kW in a bunch of different cars, i3, E-Tron, i-Pace, Tesla M3, always seems to be around 14kW

If it's an 11kW charger I can pull a decent amount of charge in 2 hours, I never charge to 100% anyway as it's bad for the battery.

For Apartment blocks DC doesn't really work since you generally get the charging point installed for yourself, it doesn't financial sense, in a lot of cases people get by with a normal power socket or opt for a 16 amp Industrial plug with a Mobile charger.

Management companies aren't really interested in maintaining a block of DC Chargers nor is everyone in the building willing to pay for them.

NicolaMan

liamog wrote: »

We looked at the math in an earlier post, for a given 50kW of charging capacity it costs around 3.2c/kWh over the expected life cycle of the charger to install a DC charger over a bank of AC chargers. That was using a realtively expensive Efacec QC45 instead of something cheaper like a Tritium Veefil-RT. Maintenance costs would also be higher, but aren't going to make the cost 3x AC charging.

Do you know what is cost of Tritium Veefil-RT? I had an understanding QC45 is one of cheaper DC solutions?

NicolaMan

redcup342 wrote: »

I think we were agreeing with each other just didn't realise.

That model is here already, many of the larger supermarkets / big box stores have 20kW DC Chargers, the problem is there is usually only 2 or 4 of them, whereas with the shopping centers usually have 30 or 40 AC points with a few Tesla Destination chargers as well.

For some reason I've never gotten the full 20kW in a bunch of different cars, i3, E-Tron, i-Pace, Tesla M3, always seems to be around 14kW

If it's an 11kW charger I can pull a decent amount of charge in 2 hours, I never charge to 100% anyway as it's bad for the battery.

For Apartment blocks DC doesn't really work since you generally get the charging point installed for yourself, it doesn't financial sense, in a lot of cases people get by with a normal power socket or opt for a 16 amp Industrial plug with a Mobile charger.

Management companies aren't really interested in maintaining a block of DC Chargers nor is everyone in the building willing to pay for them.

The only constraint to get max DC charge is probably power supply (if we exclude cold gate). Wheres with AC very few cars can charge more than 11kW.
Yes, DC maintenance is a challenge. Which basically leads to the fact that charging business should be left to professionals - CPO's who will find best solution to cates max kW to customers per least amount of investment per unit.

liamog

NicolaMan wrote: »

Do you know what is cost of Tritium Veefil-RT? I had an understanding QC45 is one of cheaper DC solutions?

I've not actually been able to find a number, but given it has lower capabilities than the QC45(no AC43). It's installation is often touted as being one of the cheapest DC chargers on the market, I expect it costs less rather than more.

NicolaMan

liamog wrote: »

I've not actually been able to find a number, but given it has lower capabilities than the QC45(no AC43). It's installation is often touted as being one of the cheapest DC chargers on the market, I expect it costs less rather than more.

and QC45? Has to be below 25k as this is ABB territory?

Chargingshop.eu - has Chinese 60kW DC station below 18k, QC45 has to be somewhere in the middle?

innrain

liamog wrote: »

I've not actually been able to find a number, but given it has lower capabilities than the QC45(no AC43). It's installation is often touted as being one of the cheapest DC chargers on the market, I expect it costs less rather than more.

I was able to find a pdf with lots of prices on this website https://ogs.ny.gov/ which seems to be a procurement list. They are not necessarily the commercial EU prices although there is a MSRP column. Bottom of page 2 are Veefil and QC45. QC45 does not have AC43 as it is in the states but still more expensive. Also one can determine the maintenance costs. Maybe you should save the pdf as very likely should not be for public eyes and it will disappear. https://online.ogs.ny.gov/purchase/spg/pdfdocs/4040423035PL_ZecoSystems.pdf

liamog

Nice find innrain.

NicolaMan

innrain wrote: »

I was able to find a pdf with lots of prices on this website https://ogs.ny.gov/ which seems to be a procurement list. They are not necessarily the commercial EU prices although there is a MSRP column. Bottom of page 2 are Veefil and QC45. QC45 does not have AC43 as it is in the states but still more expensive. Also one can determine the maintenance costs. Maybe you should save the pdf as very likely should not be for public eyes and it will disappear. https://online.ogs.ny.gov/purchase/spg/pdfdocs/4040423035PL_ZecoSystems.pdf

THANK YOU FOR SHARE!!!

liamog

That pretty much confirms that the Veefil RT is the cheapest of the 50kW DC chargers, comparing just the DC only QC45 gives a price of around 80%, so I'm going to guestimate 75% of a triple head QC45 as the price.
We are now looking at an equipment cost of €22.5k (1x50 kW DC) vs €8k (4x11 kW AC). €14.5k just isn't that much investment to recover over a 5 year cycle.

What's more useful a Tesco car park with 40 11kW AC sockets, or 10 50kW DC chargers.
Long term it will probably end up being a mix of the two.

As I see it, the AC charger at a supermarket car park is good for the consumer, but I believe offers little benefit to the host site, the consumer charges their car whilst doing their shopping.
Whereas the DC charger turns it into doing your shopping whilst charging your car.

McGiver

NicolaMan wrote:

If you are business you calculate two sides - cost and projected income So while on cost side AC looks much better on projected income side - not so much... Thing is that in theory AC has to deliver 22kW per socket, when in reality you can deliver 22kW only to Tesla S/X owners with double on-board chargers. Double on-board charger is optional when you buy car. How many of these we have on road. So in reality we have: - say 10% customers with Tesla S/X who charge @22kW - say 40% customers with 2020 Kona, Ionic, Teslas etc.. who charge @11kW - say 40% customers with Leaf 2, BMW i3, 2019 Kona etc.. who charge @7kW - say 10% customers with Leaf 1 who charge @3kW due to on-board charger limitation

Good point regarding 22kW AC not being the best from the business perspective, they're wasteful, I've been telling this for a long time.

11 kW AC and/or 7.4 kW + 11 kW AC installs and/or per min or per kWh & per min fixes all that waste. Installing 22 kW AC in a market where 90+ % can draw 50% of thar power AND charging the user per kWh is a commercial suicide.

McGiver

liamog wrote:

What's more useful a Tesco car park with 40 11kW AC sockets, or 10 50kW DC chargers. Long term it will probably end up being a mix of the two.

It's more useful to us but not the owners.

No, it won't, it's unlikely. Look at Norway, Sweden, Austria, the Netherlands, the more developed EV markets. In cities, it's all AC everywhere with little bit of DC over there.

For supermarkets, DC makes no sense to the owner, you attract 40 customers vs 10 customers. For less costs, less hassle, less maintenance.

AC charger is almost maintenance free, it's a fancy socket. DC charger has a AC/DC inverter and cooling inside, it's relatively high maintenance, imagine having to maintain 10 of them, you need an electrical engineer on site if there's a fault. For AC you just need a sparkie.

Lower power DC may be a bit different, we'll see.

Now, for private operators, DC is the game of course. AC is profitable only at good spots and with the right pricing model - pure per per kWh pricing can't be profitable with 22 kW AC.

liamog

Are you not following the thread, an AC charger that requires you to charge for 5 hours is not going to attract a customer to a destination with a dwell time between 30mins and 1hour.

innrain

Speaking of wasteful
https://www.plugshare.com/location/35131
Max stay 1h for a SCP is pretty....
I first went to the brand new DCLite which doesn't work. The DCLite is intalled in a car park which charges €2 per day with the first hour free. And the SCP in a car park with max 1h stay, paid. That is in Kilkenny.

liamog

innrain wrote: »

Speaking of wasteful
https://www.plugshare.com/location/35131
Max stay 1h for a SCP is pretty....
I first went to the brand new DCLite which doesn't work. The DCLite is intalled in a car park which charges €2 per day with the first hour free. And the SCP in a car park with max 1h stay, paid. That is in Kilkenny.

I suppose you could charge after 19:00

McGiver

liamog wrote: »

Are you not following the thread, an AC charger that requires you to charge for 5 hours is not going to attract a customer to a destination with a dwell time between 30mins and 1hour.

Oh, I am.

11 kWh/hour for free is alright. 11 kW AC is the new standard. Battery size will stabilise at ~55 kWh - see all latest EU main segment EVs, they're all 50-55 kWh. 20% for free is a good incentive.

It attracted me and 5 more others today - 6x22 kW slots at a local mall, all full. i3, Ioniq, 330e, 2x Kona and Leaf 40kW.

McGiver

innrain wrote: »

Speaking of wasteful
https://www.plugshare.com/location/35131
Max stay 1h for a SCP is pretty....
I first went to the brand new DCLite which doesn't work. The DCLite is intalled in a car park which charges €2 per day with the first hour free. And the SCP in a car park with max 1h stay, paid. That is in Kilkenny.

Why is it 1 hour max stay? The local authority asking that?

liamog

McGiver wrote: »

Oh, I am.

11 kWh/hour for free is alright. 11 kW AC is the new standard. Battery size will stabilise at ~55 kWh - see all latest EU main segment EVs, they're all 50-55 kWh. 20% for free is a good incentive.

It attracted me and 5 more others today - 6x22 kW slots at a local mall, all full. i3, Ioniq, 330e, 2x Kona and Leaf 40kW.

The premise of the thread is not giving out free charging at shops. It's what a sensible way to provide chargers for people who can't charge at home.

My position is that one of the components of this, is to co-site a bank of DC chargers at a location where people spend between 30 and 60 mins (i.e. the supermarket). 11kW AC makes perfect sense for shopping centres/malls etc. But the average stay at those is usually in the 2 to 3 hour range.

redcup342

liamog wrote: »

Are you not following the thread, an AC charger that requires you to charge for 5 hours is not going to attract a customer to a destination with a dwell time between 30mins and 1hour.

It is if you are at 60% and have a 260km drive ahead of you

You don't need a full charge if you have an abundance of 11kW chargers around as you can always maintain a level of charge when you are parked.

For example yesterday in Leidschendam, Holland I wanted to visit a shopping center, checkout the Polestar 2 they had there, get some dinner and do some shopping. We stayed for 2 hours, in this time I loaded 22,16 kWh.

Then we to a friend house for a cup of tea before driving back to Dusseldorf.

Plugged in at a charger on street next to their place, loaded 3,64 kWh (45 mins topping off)

Drove back to Dusseldorf and didn't have to stop to Rapid charger although if I needed to it would only be a few kWh because I had plenty of charge to complete my journey (258km)

If all of the chargers I used yesterday were DC there would be less of them and I'd have to go to a place to charge rather than charge at the place I want to go.

If you charge your EV up to 100% all the time its not good for battery health anyway.

liamog

redcup342 wrote: »

You don't need a full charge if you have an abundance of 11kW chargers around as you can always maintain a level of charge when you are parked.

Yes, you've given examples before of how it works for you, but you can't seem to make the cognitive leap to how an alternative solution would work for other people.

redcup342 wrote: »

If you charge your EV up to 100% all the time its not good for battery health anyway.

That's largely a myth with modern BMS systems, outside of Tesla who provide a much lower battery buffer, the BMS won't allow you to get anywhere near a 100% state of charge.

innrain

Based on your example and the thread requirement (max stay less than 1 hour) only the last stop fits. 45min and 3.64 kWh.
These 45 min are representative for an average grocery shop (mentioned 47 mins) and @15.5kWh/100km they charge you 23.5 km.
For me, without home charger, that is useless because the only thing it does it's reducing my rapid charge efficiency. When I go to a rapid I want to charge as fast as possible. In fact when I reach 75% and the charging rate drops to 35kWh I leave. For this I need to be below 30%. So the only way it helps me is if I'm at >75% already. But even then I will not chose that particular grocery store just because it has 1 charger. (specially if it is free as the chances of finding it free are slim)

For the shop/charger owner @ 23c/kWh that makes less than 1 euro. I'm able to charge about 37kWh at the ESB triples in 45 mins and costs about 10 euros. That is >10x, and I will choose the shop with the DC charger.
By no means I discount the AC charges. They have a place at locations where you stay longer. Your first stop proves that. Workplaces, large shopping malls where people used to hang (not anymore), cinemas, hotels, park and ride facilities. And yes you can have a mix of them at these places. Penalized if you choose short and stay long and vice versa but at short stay locations AC makes sense only if you charge at 22kW. Hence, the argument for 25kW DC at these locations.

redcup342

liamog wrote: »

Yes, you've given examples before of how it works for you, but you can't seem to make the cognitive leap to how an alternative solution would work for other people.

I think it's easier to know what works when you have the infrastructure already there and use is regularly rather than theorising what might work when you have next to nothing.

50kW DC on the Highway I would avoid these days because it's too slow (unless I'm in an i3 or something)

liamog wrote: »

That's largely a myth with modern BMS systems, outside of Tesla who provide a much lower battery buffer, the BMS won't allow you to get anywhere near a 100% state of charge.

I was referring to unexpected long parking times, like getting sick and your EV sitting there at 100% for 2 weeks.

innrain wrote: »

Based on your example and the thread requirement (max stay less than 1 hour) only the last stop fits. 45min and 3.64 kWh.
These 45 min are representative for an average grocery shop (mentioned 47 mins) and @15.5kWh/100km they charge you 23.5 km.
For me, without home charger, that is useless because the only thing it does it's reducing my rapid charge efficiency. When I go to a rapid I want to charge as fast as possible. In fact when I reach 75% and the charging rate drops to 35kWh I leave. For this I need to be below 30%. So the only way it helps me is if I'm at >75% already. But even then I will not chose that particular grocery store just because it has 1 charger. (specially if it is free as the chances of finding it free are slim)

Only reason I plugged in for 2 hours was because I was there for 2 hours not because I needed to charge.

45 minutes parked at 3.64 kW was because I was at 95% (rate reduces significantly at that SOC) and wanted a parking space that was reserved for EVs.

For the shop/charger owner @ 23c/kWh that makes less than 1 euro. I'm able to charge about 37kWh at the ESB triples in 45 mins and costs about 10 euros. That is >10x, and I will choose the shop with the DC charger.
By no means I discount the AC charges. They have a place at locations where you stay longer. Your first stop proves that. Workplaces, large shopping malls where people used to hang (not anymore), cinemas, hotels, park and ride facilities. And yes you can have a mix of them at these places. Penalized if you choose short and stay long and vice versa but at short stay locations AC makes sense only if you charge at 22kW. Hence, the argument for 25kW DC at these locations.

AC charging at this location was free powered by Solar Panels on the complex roof.

liamog

redcup342 wrote: »

I think it's easier to know what works when you have the infrastructure already there and use is regularly rather than theorising what might work when you have next to nothing.

There are plenty of examples of where 50kW DC chargers work at supermarkets, gastropubs, fast food restaurants etc....
It's not theorising when it's being put into practice.

redcup342 wrote: »

I was referring to unexpected long parking times, like getting sick and your EV sitting there at 100% for 2 weeks.

Ok, I don't think that's going to influence my decision when choosing to charge at a DC charger whilst doing my weekly shop.

ELM327

innrain wrote: »

Based on your example and the thread requirement (max stay less than 1 hour) only the last stop fits. 45min and 3.64 kWh.
These 45 min are representative for an average grocery shop (mentioned 47 mins) and @15.5kWh/100km they charge you 23.5 km.
For me, without home charger, that is useless because the only thing it does it's reducing my rapid charge efficiency. When I go to a rapid I want to charge as fast as possible. In fact when I reach 75% and the charging rate drops to 35kWh I leave. For this I need to be below 30%. So the only way it helps me is if I'm at >75% already. But even then I will not chose that particular grocery store just because it has 1 charger. (specially if it is free as the chances of finding it free are slim)

For the shop/charger owner @ 23c/kWh that makes less than 1 euro. I'm able to charge about 37kWh at the ESB triples in 45 mins and costs about 10 euros. That is >10x, and I will choose the shop with the DC charger.
By no means I discount the AC charges. They have a place at locations where you stay longer. Your first stop proves that. Workplaces, large shopping malls where people used to hang (not anymore), cinemas, hotels, park and ride facilities. And yes you can have a mix of them at these places. Penalized if you choose short and stay long and vice versa but at short stay locations AC makes sense only if you charge at 22kW. Hence, the argument for 25kW DC at these locations.

Nail. On. Head.

McGiver

liamog wrote:

There are plenty of examples of where 50kW DC chargers work at supermarkets, gastropubs, fast food restaurants etc.... It's not theorising when it's being put into practice.

Where? How much is it put in practice compared to AC in numbers?

Look at Oslo City in Plugshare. Have a look and show me such DC hubs. I could find one or two, one at IKEA and another one communal area which had 6 DC but also 20 AC slots. Charging there is overwhelmingly AC otherwise. The ratio of AC:DC is very large.

What other examples do you need? Austria, Norway, Sweden, Netherlands - the most developed EV markets, the same pattern everywhere. If Norway doesn't invest massively in DC in the cities, do you really think Ireland will?

AC has several advantages, it's been explained to death...

liamog

DC also has lot's of advantages, namely the fact that it can fit a lot of peoples usage.
I'm not exactly sure what your point is, other than "I don't need it therefore there is no use for it"

We've largely discounted any cost advantage for AC, as meaningless over the expected life of a charger.
We also covered why it only makes sense now for DC chargers to be rolled out, when the average EV had a battery between 20 and 30kWh, 50 kW chargers are a massive over provision.
Now that EVs come with between 50kWh and 75kWh, the 50kW DC charger is functionally equivalent to a 22kW when the Zoe first came out.

This is the Sandvika Storsenter shopping center in Norway. 3.5km down the road is an IKEA with 4 50kW DC chargers.
It really took no effort at all to find a few examples.

redcup342

liamog wrote: »

DC also has lot's of advantages, namely the fact that it can fit a lot of peoples usage.
I'm not exactly sure what your point is, other than "I don't need it therefore there is no use for it"

We've largely discounted any cost advantage for AC, as meaningless over the expected life of a charger.
We also covered why it only makes sense now for DC chargers to be rolled out, when the average EV had a battery between 20 and 30kWh, 50 kW chargers are a massive over provision.
Now that EVs come with between 50kWh and 75kWh, the 50kW DC charger is functionally equivalent to a 22kW when the Zoe first came out.

This is the Sandvika Storsenter shopping center in Norway. 3.5km down the road is an IKEA with 4 50kW DC chargers.
It really took no effort at all to find a few examples.

Probably a rather bad example, those Gronnkontakt chargers are a bit pricey

For a 1 hour standing charge its 150 NOK (2.5 NOK / min)
Say 50 kW, which is 2.90 / kWh = 145 NOK

That's 28,32 EUR to charge up on DC

From the picture it doesn't surprise that it's empty, guarantee the 6 spots in the underground car park with Schucko plugs are in use though, even though they are only 3kW they are for free.

ELM327

redcup342 wrote: »

Probably a rather bad example, those Gronnkontakt chargers are expensive as hell.

For a 1 hour standing charge its 150 NOK (2.5 NOK / min)
Say 50 kW, which is 2.90 / kWh = 145 NOK

That's 28,32 EUR to charge up on DC

From the picture it doesn't surprise that it's empty, guarantee the 6 spots in the underground car park with Schucko plugs are in use though, even though they are only 3kW they are for free.

Theres a 20% discount for anyone using them on a regular basis. Bjorn said they are cheaper than other equivalent fast chargers.


And you wouldnt be there an hour anyway.

liamog

redcup342 wrote: »

Probably a rather bad example, those Gronnkontakt chargers are a bit pricey

Why, I think it was a great example considering the purpose. The example was to address the point by McGiver

"Where? How much is it put in practice compared to AC in numbers?
Look at Oslo City in Plugshare. Have a look and show me such DC hubs. "

A very quick look found an example just outside Oslo, where multiple DC chargers had been installed in a shopping centre car park.

redcup342

ELM327 wrote: »

Theres a 20% discount for anyone using them on a regular basis. Bjorn said they are cheaper than other equivalent fast chargers.


And you wouldnt be there an hour anyway.

It's cheaper when you use over 48 euros / month, still relatively expensive compared to AC charging even with the 20% discount.

liamog wrote: »

Why, I think it was a great example considering the purpose. The example was to address the point by McGiver

"Where? How much is it put in practice compared to AC in numbers?
Look at Oslo City in Plugshare. Have a look and show me such DC hubs. "

A very quick look found an example just outside Oslo, where multiple DC chargers had been installed in a shopping centre car park.

The same place has 32x11kW AC plugs in P5 and bunch of EU Schuko plugs in the underground car park.

Nobody plugs into those DC plugs and goes off shopping as there's a standing charge / min, they stay in the car.

Those are range extenders.

The destination chargers are the 11kW AC, they give 3 hours free parking

So it's a good example of both cases on one site, the DC charging is not destination charging in this case otherwise they wouldn't charge / minute along with per kW

liamog

redcup342 wrote: »

Nobody plugs into those DC plugs and goes off shopping as there's a standing charge / min, they stay in the car.

You'll probably find they do, I've plenty of experience from Blanchardstown where people would walk off for 30 mins to get a coffee, nip to Penny's etc whilst there car was "refilling".

redcup342

liamog wrote: »

You'll probably find they do, I've plenty of experience from Blanchardstown where people would walk off for 30 mins to get a coffee, nip to Penny's etc whilst there car was "refilling".

Not in Norway or France on per minute billing, a queue for the Toilet could end up costing you extra money.

They do per minute billing on DC to discourage 'nipping off to the shops' to free up the charging spots.

liamog

redcup342 wrote: »

Not in Norway or France on per minute billing, a queue for the Toilet could end up costing you extra money.

They do per minute billing on DC to discourage 'nipping off to the shops' to free up the charging spots.

I don't think there is anyway to confirm or deny the point, so not sure it adds to the discussion.
I could probably comb through Bjorn video's and find an example of a car DC charging without the user being present, but not sure there is any value in addressing such sweeping generalisations.

redcup342

liamog wrote: »

I don't think there is anyway to confirm or deny the point, so not sure it adds to the discussion.
I could probably comb through Bjorn video's and find an example of a car DC charging without the user being present, but not sure there is any value in addressing such sweeping generalisations.

https://elbil.no/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/EVS30-Charging-infrastrucure-experiences-in-Norway-paper.pdf

Payment per kWh will increase the risk of queues because the BEV owner
will not have an incentive to move the car when charging is slow. With dynamic effect distribution between
chargers, the best model will probably be to have payment with a combination of time and kWh, similar to
taxi rates with a combination of time and km.

E.G. Fortum Charge & Drive:
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5beeb85155b02c87c213e1c6/t/5c6570eb971a187c66374a35/1550151945024/Fortum_EspenSkaar_OleGudbrannHempel_LearningsEmobilityMassMarket.pdf

Page 20 Vulcan, Oslo:

100 x flexible semi-fast charging stations (22 kW)
• 2 x rapid-charging stations
• DC: 2,50 NOK/min (24 cents / minute)
• AC: 2,00-3,00 NOK/kWh depending on effect
selected (19 cent / kWh)

Only one I can think of where people didn't move until the Car was fully charged was Ionity when they had their introductary rate of 8 euros flat.

From a providers perspective, DC is high value/margin, AC gets more customers.

Lumen

I think my Model 3 only gets 11kW on a 22kW 3ph AC charger and about 40kW on a 50kW DC charger.

I accept that people with modern hi-tech EVs like the Zoe can avail of 22kW AC, but my lowly Tesla can't. :pac:

So a nominal 22kW charger is useless for me unless I'm going to leave it there overnight, and I don't want to leave the car overnight in a supermarket car park.

With a nominal 50kW charger I'd often stop to charge at ~30%, looking for 25kWh but happy enough to take up to 50kWh, and so a 50kW charger operating at 40kW gives me 40-80 minutes of charging which is a good amount of time to get stuff done without worrying about overstay fees. It's a nice sweet spot.

liamog

redcup342 wrote: »

Only one I can think of where people didn't move until the Car was fully charged was Ionity when they had their introductary rate of 8 euros flat.

From a providers perspective, DC is high value/margin, AC gets more customers.

The fortum report you shared back up my assertion for installing DC, fortum recognise exactly the synergy benefits from co-locating the sites.
Your are now making the point that DC chargers shouldn't be installed for hubs because they are too lucrative for the charging provider?

High commitment through partner reaping synergy effects
• Customers shop high-margin products while charging

The first report is from 2017, where outside of Tesla, the largest battery available was a 30kWh Leaf, where as I pointed out to McGiver, a 50kW DC charger could be seen as over provision.

redcup342

Lumen wrote: »

I think my Model 3 only gets 11kW on a 22kW 3ph AC charger and about 40kW on a 50kW DC charger.

I accept that people with modern hi-tech EVs like the Zoe can avail of 22kW AC, but my lowly Tesla can't. :pac:

So a nominal 22kW charger is useless for me unless I'm going to leave it there overnight, and I don't want to leave the car overnight in a supermarket car park.

With a nominal 50kW charger I'd often stop to charge at ~30%, looking for 25kWh but happy enough to take up to 50kWh, and so a 50kW charger operating at 40kW gives me 40-80 minutes of charging which is a good amount of time to get stuff done without worrying about overstay fees. It's a nice sweet spot.

Yep, my model 3 also gets 11kW, but I just use the combination of time when parked to charge rather than one session to charge from 30-80 percent.

Only time I charge to 80% is when I'm leaving the car overnight, If I'm away from home thats on the street or in a covered car park, however I only really do that if I know I'm going a long trip the next day.

Topping up here and there is totally adequate, I might plug in 3/4 times in a day if moving around, the combination of that time is what counts (this has the added benefit of easily finding a parking space and only drawing current when I'm parked on an EV Charging space)

There are rare cases where I'd try to plan as many kW as possible in a session but that's because one of the providers I use charges 3 euros flat for a session or 6 euros flat while roaming (outside of my region)

But the above is possible because there is an abundance of AC loading opportunities as most locations I want to go, even in the City Center of most Cities.

Charging hubs mean I'd be better off parking up the car then renting a city bicycle to get around to the different places I want to go.

liamog wrote: »

The fortum report you shared back up my assertion for installing DC, fortum recognise exactly the synergy benefits from co-locating the sites.
Your are now making the point that DC chargers shouldn't be installed for hubs because they are too lucrative for the charging provider?

Sure, but at a ratio of 100 AC to 2 DC with time based charging for DC and kWh based charging for AC

Yep they an have a higher margin after the site is paid off, but that's not up to them, the local authority sets the policy (either through incentives or permission)

The first report is from 2017, where outside of Tesla, the largest battery available was a 30kWh Leaf, where as I pointed out to McGiver, a 50kW DC charger could be seen as over provision.

Tesla Model S was on sale from 2014 in NL and NO, I think there was around 20,000 Teslas on the Road in 2017.

liamog

redcup342 wrote: »

Sure, but at a ratio of 100 AC to 2 DC with time based charging for DC and kWh based charging for AC

Yep they an have a higher margin after the site is paid off, but that's not up to them, the local authority sets the policy (either through incentives or permission)

The whole point about co-location is that there is no site to pay off, it's not about installing a tranche of DC chargers in greenfield sites, it's co-locating them at a location where there is a general expectation that a person has a dwell time between 30 mins and 1 hour.
As per fortums own report that you source, the site owner see's a mutual benefit and its beneficial for both.

Tesla Model S was on sale from 2014 in NL and NO, I think there was around 20,000 Teslas on the Road in 2017.

I'm not sure how an indication of the number of Tesla vehicles, is a response to the the comment that outside of Tesla battery sizes were approx 30kWh.

redcup342

liamog wrote: »

The whole point about co-location is that there is no site to pay off, it's not about installing a tranche of DC chargers in greenfield sites, it's co-locating them at a location where there is a general expectation that a person has a dwell time between 30 mins and 1 hour.
As per fortums own report that you source, the site owner see's a mutual benefit and its beneficial for both.

I'm not sure how an indication of the number of Tesla vehicles, is a response to the the comment that outside of Tesla battery sizes were approx 30kWh.

You can totally do that, but you'll have to stay with the car, or pay for it to sit on the charger if you don't come back within a specified time

Entry level on the 2014 Model S was 60 kWh, essentially they were solely relying on Type 2 AC as they couldn't use CCS back then and were using Superchargers for long distance anyways

liamog

redcup342 wrote: »

You can totally do that, but you'll have to stay with the car, or pay for it to sit on the charger if you don't come back within a specified time

I'm not sure about yourself, but generally when I'm in a supermarket, I don't spontaneously forget where I am and have a sit down meal. Last time I was in the UK, we charged our car a DC charger in a Morrision's car park. I did have to pop out to move the car, but we only have a 28kWh Ioniq. If the car had a bigger battery (which is part of the previous points made) we would have still been charging by the time we finished.

redcup342

liamog wrote: »

I'm not sure about yourself, but generally when I'm in a supermarket, I don't spontaneously forget where I am and have a sit down meal. Last time I was in the UK, we charged our car a DC charger in a Morrision's car park. I did have to pop out to move the car, but we only have a 28kWh Ioniq. If the car had a bigger battery (which is part of the previous points made) we would have still been charging by the time we finished.

Well this is the point, you need plan to go to the Supermarket and Charge while there.

Like your other half decides she wants to go look in the clothes shops and you say "oh but I have to go back and take the car off charge and move it"

I don't need to plan anything and just charge as part of the parking process while I'm doing any trip in the car whether its spontaneous or planned at any location because of AC Charging density.

It's fairly rare you have to walk more than 500 meters from a Charging spot in NL to where you are going.

Indeed, charging in the UK is fairly rubbish experience compared to most of the countries I've driven in and the sales figures for BEVs reflect that.

Bear in mind very few people in NL have access to a parking space on their property.

liamog

That was pretty much the premise, I need to go and charge the car because I can't charge at home, and I'm doing something else.
Doing so whilst doing your weekly grocery shop is an ideal time to fit this in.

Certainly from my own car usage, if my car wasn't at home or work, there aren't really 5/6 hours a week where the car is sat still long enough for AC charging to be the solution.

redcup342

liamog wrote: »

That was pretty much the premise, I need to go and charge the car because I can't charge at home, and I'm doing something else.
Doing so whilst doing your weekly grocery shop is an ideal time to fit this in.

Certainly from my own car usage, if my car wasn't at home or work, there aren't really 5/6 hours a week where the car is sat still long enough for AC charging to be the solution.

I have many options because of charger density.:

I go to the Gym every few days (charge on street AC)

Play Badminton once a week (charge on street AC)

Large supermarket shop (charge on street AC, DC Charger at aldi is always occupied and only 20kW)

Down to the Eifel to go hiking (charge AC Public Car Park)

Over to NL to go shopping in Roermond. (80 AC Charging points, never stuck for one)

Spend a day at the Spa (20x AC Charging points)

Massage 2 times a month (On street charging point)

Visit some friends in Den Haag, Delft, Amsterdam, Cologne wherever (Always AC loading options in Car Parks or Onstreet)

Out for dinner somewhere in the Area (Charge at the restaurant on AC or on Street)

Go to the Cinema (Charge AC at the cinema or on street)

Loads of other opportunities

I'll charge all of those times even if I'm at 40 50 60 or even 70%
I recover any kilometers I driven and then some just plugging in for 1 hour at wherever I'm going.

There are spots all over the City (Dusseldorf) you can park and charge while you go about your business, you can also see if the charger is available. ICE Cars are towed away if they block the spot.

If DC only was being deployed then there would be far less loading options available, more chargers with less is better than less chargers with more.

You don't need to sit on a charger for 4-5 hours to charge up your car, you only need to draw enough kWh to cover the kilometers you have driven or are going to drive.

KCross

After pages of over and back the reality hasnt changed.... we need loads more AC and DC! With lots more AC than DC for economies of scale.

As redcup has said, when you charge on AC it doesnt always have to be the case that you go to 100%. You dont typically do it on DC either as the tapering after 80% is generally crap depending on the car.

So, loads more AC and DC everywhere and pick the one that suits you for that journey.