AC vs DC for charging without private parking

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

After pages of over and back the reality hasnt changed.... we need loads more AC and DC! With lots more AC than DC for economies of scale.

As redcup has said, when you charge on AC it doesnt always have to be the case that you go to 100%. You dont typically do it on DC either as the tapering after 80% is generally crap depending on the car.

So, loads more AC and DC everywhere and pick the one that suits you for that journey.

Absolutely. I think Redcup is suffering from a perspective predicated on being in a country where both options are readily available wherever you are. We do not have that here. Far from it.

redcup342

ELM327 wrote: »

Absolutely. I think Redcup is suffering from a perspective predicated on being in a country where both options are readily available wherever you are. We do not have that here. Far from it.

I've driven over most of Northern Europe in various BEVs as far south as Northern Italy, as far east at the Czech Republic and West as far as the UK.

In different vehicles such as a BMW i3, i3S, E-Tron 55, Jaguar i-Pace and Tesla M3. I've even taken a Smart EQ on occasion.

In Cities (I've been to) where it's "high value" DC loading only it's a sh*t show (unless you are driving a Tesla)

Sure you need DC but this needs to be on the Motorways, higher speed the better, Fastned is a perfect example and is a model that should be followed.

But for Cities you need widespead AC Deployment with a minimum of 11kW to fit the needs of all EV Drivers (demand driven so they are placed where people request them)

Otherwise you are stuck to this Empty/Full Petrol station mentality.

liamog

redcup342 wrote: »

In Cities (I've been to) where it's "high value" DC loading only it's a sh*t show (unless you are driving a Tesla)

...

But for Cities you need widespead AC Deployment with a minimum of 11kW to fit the needs of all EV Drivers (demand driven so they are placed where people request them)

We're not arguing for DC only, and we've given many examples of reasons why AC11kW does not suit the needs of many potential EV drivers

redcup342

liamog wrote: »

We're not arguing for DC only, and we've given many examples of reasons why AC11kW does not suit the needs of many potential EV drivers

At least all cars can use Type 2 AC, DC is unsuitable for every PHEV and every EV that's Type 2 Only (such as the Smart EQ and the Twizzy)

liamog

redcup342 wrote: »

At least all cars can use Type 2 AC, DC is unsuitable for every PHEV and every EV that's Type 2 Only (such as the Smart EQ and the Twizzy)

A basically meaningless requirement for installing chargers to cope with the current wave of EVs with 50kWh to 75kWh batteries

redcup342

liamog wrote: »

A basically meaningless requirement for installing chargers to cope with the current wave of EVs with 50kWh to 75kWh batteries

So to the original point ? Where do you charge your car without having to be away from home ? If you dont have a parking space ?

liamog

redcup342 wrote: »

So to the original point ? Where do you charge your car without having to be away from home ? If you dont have a parking space ?

So the new reason for not having any DC chargers at supermarkets is to avoid upsetting the extremely small number of Twizzy drivers who don't have home charging.
That sounds like an excellent reason to inconvenience the other 90% of EV drivers whose car's are cable of DC charging.

McGiver

liamog wrote:

This is the Sandvika Storsenter shopping center in Norway. 3.5km down the road is an IKEA with 4 50kW DC chargers. It really took no effort at all to find a few examples.

There's literally 20-30 times more AC examples for the same scenario, in the same place. You just pull examples you want to present ignoring that they are a rarity. AC is everywhere. DC much less so.

Still waiting for the rationale why you think IE will develop contrary to all the much more developed EV markets.

liamog

McGiver wrote: »

There's literally 20-30 times more AC examples for the same scenario, in the same place. You just pull examples you want to present ignoring that they are a rarity. AC is everywhere. DC much less so.

I've addressed your point multiple times about why there are currently more examples of AC deployments than DC. I'm not sure why you keep ignoring it.

This has nothing to do with Irish deployments, 50kW DC is being rolled out in multiple places across Europe to address charging requirements in locations where people spend between 30 minutes and one hour. You asked for an example in a mature EV market, and I found you some.

redcup342

liamog wrote: »

So the new reason for not having any DC chargers at supermarkets is to avoid upsetting the extremely small number of Twizzy drivers who don't have home charging.
That sounds like an excellent reason to inconvenience the other 90% of EV drivers whose car's are cable of DC charging.

Well that and Smart ED and EQ.

Quite a nice little car for nipping around the city btw

But back to your point:

liamog wrote: »

We're not discussing DC chargers like the motorways, we're discussing 50kW DC hubs in the likes of supermarket car parks, places where someone without the ability to charge at home likely already spends an hour or so a week. As 50kWh to 75kWh cars become the norm, you are already looking at around an hour to charge at a 50kW charger.

As I've said already you can have DC Fast charging at locations where there is access to parking, BUT if you don't have any infrastructure to speak off you need to walk before you can run.

Fuel stations get their product delivered by trucks and everyone goes to that location to fill up so a fuel station makes sense.

Infrastructure for electricity is literally everywhere, there is no reason why you cannot place distribution points at places where people live, work, shop, eat, go to the toilet, exercise and so on.

The important thing is people have as many opportunities as possible to get that energy and the only way to do that is to roll it out in the cheapest way possible.

Whether it's AC Loading poles on street or normal plug sockets in car parks that's the quickest way to do it.

You don't need to fill your battery all in one sitting, you just need options to fill it when you aren't driving (most of the time your car is sitting parked anyway)

Deploy DC if you want at locations where you have a plethora of AC Charging already, but

A. It'll cost more
B. You'll need to charge for time instead of kW or a combination of both.

Otherwise it won't be available when people need it.

Lumen

OK, taking the two models as simplistic alternatives, and assuming all cars on the road are EVs and half of them don't have home charging, which is more scaleable?

1. Supermarkets and shopping centres with 50% of the spaces having 50kW DC (because if you only charge once a week, you really need to be very sure that a charger will be free).

2. 50% of all public parking spaces having (say) 10A 2 phase untethered AC.

I don't know the answer. Maybe it has been revealed already and I missed it.

redcup342

Lumen wrote: »

OK, taking the two models as simplistic alternatives, and assuming all cars on the road are EVs and half of them don't have home charging, which is more scaleable?

1. Supermarkets and shopping centres with 50% of the spaces having 50kW DC (because if you only charge once a week, you really need to be very sure that a charger will be free).

2. 50% of all public parking spaces having (say) 10A 2 phase untethered AC.

I don't know the answer. Maybe it has been revealed already and I missed it.

Well I'd say the cars are spending most of the time parked where people live and sleep so it would make sense to have charging there rather than some location they are only spending 45 minutes to one hour.

BoatMad

My view , is for people that don’t have access to domestic charging , is access to DC fast charging . Added to that AC charging at work , over nights in hotels etc

Low dwell time locations, with low power charging is largely useless , 7kw or less being of little use for people staying <=an hour

liamog

redcup342 wrote: »

Deploy DC if you want at locations where you have a plethora of AC Charging already, but

A. It'll cost more
B. You'll need to charge for time instead of kW or a combination of both.

A. We worked out the cost differential it was cent's on the kWh, roughly speaking 5c/kWh extra would cover the capital cost and maintenance overhead for deploying 50kW DC vs 11kW AC per unit of available charging.
B. I just don't agree with you on this, ironically I believe AC should be charged by time, and 50kW DC charged by energy supplied.

redcup342

BoatMad wrote: »

My view , is for people that don’t have access to domestic charging , is access to DC fast charging . Added to that AC charging at work , over nights in hotels etc

Low dwell time locations, with low power charging is largely useless , 7kw or less being of little use for people staying <=an hour

You spend most of your time at home, electricity is already running through the streets so no additional infrastructure other than a loading pole needs to be built.

liamog wrote: »

A. We worked out the cost differential it was cent's on the kWh, roughly speaking 5c/kWh extra would cover the capital cost and maintenance overhead for deploying 50kW DC vs 11kW AC per unit of available charging.
B. I just don't agree with you on this, ironically I believe AC should be charged by time, and 50kW DC charged by energy supplied.

I don't know where you got that 5c / kWh cost from, perhaps you should start an energy company :pac:

On your point B
I'd prefer to have a rapid charger available when I need it rather than it being in use by someone that just wants to top up because there's an empty space.

I'm echoing McGivers point though

Still waiting for the rationale why you think IE will develop contrary to all the much more developed EV markets.

Can you give us an answer

liamog

redcup342 wrote: »

I don't know where you got that 5c / kWh cost from, perhaps you should start an energy company :pac:

Pretty straightforward and it was posted in thread, but I can work the example with you again.

Installation of 5 2x11kW AC chargers and 2 50kW DC chargers.
Capacity is 110kW and 100kW, so we can discount electrical network requirements as identical.

Purchase cost for the charging equipment is 2x€25,000 vs 5x€4,000.
So that's €50,000 vs €20,000. Using a 30% occupancy rate and a 5 year operating period.

€30,000 / 5 / 365 gives the daily extra cost as €27.40.
The chargers supply the equivalent electricity as being occupied 30% of the time (50 * 2 * 24 * 30%) to give a daily supply of 720kWh. €27.40 / 720 is 3.8c/kWh. I then rounded it up to 5c/kWh to cover maintenance.
Obviously the predicted occupancy rate is key, but even if the charges are only occupied for 15% of the day, the extra cost to cover the purchase is 7.6c/kWh.

liamog

redcup342 wrote: »

Can you give us an answer

Can you read the answer that was provided to McGiver

This has nothing to do with Irish deployments, 50kW DC is being rolled out in multiple places across Europe to address charging requirements in locations where people spend between 30 minutes and one hour. You asked for an example in a mature EV market, and I found you some.

If anything the question should be, why is Ireland not following the lead of other European countries, and instead we have 2x22kW AC installations at supermarkets.

redcup342

liamog wrote: »

Pretty straightforward and it was posted in thread, but I can work the example with you again.

Installation of 5 2x11kW AC chargers and 2 50kW DC chargers.
Capacity is 110kW and 100kW, so we can discount electrical network requirements as identical.

Purchase cost for the charging equipment is 2x€25,000 vs 5x€4,000.
So that's €50,000 vs €20,000. Using a 30% occupancy rate and a 5 year operating period.

€30,000 / 5 / 365 gives the daily extra cost as €27.40.
The chargers supply the equivalent electricity as being occupied 30% of the time (50 * 2 * 24 * 30%) to give a daily supply of 720kWh. €27.40 / 720 is 3.8c/kWh. I then rounded it up to 5c/kWh to cover maintenance.
Obviously the predicted occupancy rate is key, but even if the charges are only occupied for 15% of the day, the extra cost to cover the purchase is 7.6c/kWh.

You haven't factored in that company has to balance the margin against the wholesale energy cost + whatever contract rate they fixed when they joined whatever Charging Network they are in.

Nor have you factored in the cost of financing during the break even period of 5 years (I don't know where you came up with 5 years, that's a very long break even period for a local operator)

4000 euros for an AC Loading pole is extremely high also, look at almost halving that (even less with government grants)

And don't forget about maintenence, 1 AC Pole fails you lost 20% capacity, 1 DC Charger fails you lost 50% capacity, DC Chargers are a lot more unreliable due to complexity (the have more parts and have a tethered cable)

But even using your numbers spending the money on places where 10 people can charge their cars while they sit at home or sleep vs spending the same money on 2 charging points where people can queue up to charge seems like a no brainer for me.

There is no need for the Fueling Station Model anymore.

liamog

redcup342 wrote: »

You haven't factored in that company has to balance the margin against the wholesale energy cost + whatever contract rate they fixed when they joined whatever Charging Network they are in.

The energy supply is the same, so not sure why that would need to be balanced in? 5 years is a fairly reasonable estimate of the lifetime of a charger. Overall profitability will be based on the the actual per kWh pricing, these numbers are to address the cost differential over the expected lifetime of the chargers, not the operating profits of your business model. Prices for commercial charges were taken from the source provided by innrain.

redcup342

liamog wrote: »

The energy supply is the same, so not sure why that would need to be balanced in? 5 years is a fairly reasonable estimate of the lifetime of a charger. Overall profitability will be based on the the actual per kWh pricing, these numbers are to address the cost differential over the expected lifetime of the chargers, not the operating profits of your business model. Prices for commercial charges were taken from the source provided by innrain.

A. Your assuming all of the AC Chargers need to be in the same place (they don't) therefore the Energy Requirement is not the same.

B. The price per / kWh for supply is the B2B Price the owner of the Loading Station pays for their power.

They'll also have the price they get when in a Network, for example:
https://has-to-be.com/en/industries/emobility-for-municipal-utilities/

You can make your money by fixing a contract on your B2B Contract or your Wholesale Energy price (If you are an energy company, many energy companies have a Trading arm for this very purpose)

You can try and stay out of a charging network and build your own billing system, this tends to be a major additional cost. Some companies find it easier to just buy an existing company to do this (Shell Recharge purchasing New Motion for example)

C. If I was running a Project where the break even point was the same as the projected lifetime of the service our Portfolio Management Office would probably ask if I was feeling ok. :pac:

liamog

per kWh served, the energy requirements are the same. Distributing around a larger geographic area is likely to increase rather than decrease the cost.
Again, I just do not understand why 110kWh of supply for an 5 2x11kW AC chargers, is magically cheaper than the same supply requirement for 2x50kW DC chargers.
Can you provided a worked example?

From my own experience of projects where infrastructure is required, it's very common to allocate the infrastructure costs to a notional lifetime of the project rather than expect an immediate recovery on day zero.
We were always focussed on the rate of return for the overall project.

redcup342

liamog wrote: »

per kWh served, the energy requirements are the same. Distributing around a larger geographic area is likely to increase rather than decrease the cost.
Again, I just do not understand why 110kWh of supply for an 5 2x11kW AC chargers, is magically cheaper than the same supply requirement for 2x50kW DC chargers.
Can you provided a worked example?

From my own experience of projects where infrastructure is required, it's very common to allocate the infrastructure costs to a notional lifetime of the project rather than expect an immediate recovery on day zero.
We were always focussed on the rate of return for the overall project.

That would be the case if you had to build the underlying infrastructure but you are forgetting the infrastructure is already there.

If you place same load in one place you have to upgrade the Maximum Import Capacity (MIC) of the location, this can be expensive depending on the location (and can even influence the choice of location)

There's also two things you missed:

A. DC Charger will not output at it's maximum capacity all of the time it depends what the receiving vehicle will accept.

B. They are not used 24 hours, nobody really uses them at night time. Who is going to drive to a DC Charging Hub at 2 am and sit there for 45 minutes to charge when everything is closed.

But in any case were going off point,

Why would you force people to go to a location were they spend very little time parked rather than offering the service where the distribution system already exists and they spend most of their time parked anyway ?

liamog

redcup342 wrote: »

Why would you force people to go to a location were they spend very little time parked rather than offering the service where the distribution system already exists and they spend most of their time parked anyway ?

Why would you force a person to park away from their home one night a week instead of charging at the supermarket whilst they are picking up their groceries and would be parked anyway?

It seems that only yourself believes that DC at supermarkets equals no AC anywhere.

redcup342

liamog wrote: »

Why would you force a person to park away from their home one night a week instead of charging at the supermarket whilst they are picking up their groceries and would be parked anyway?

It seems that only yourself believes that DC at supermarkets equals no AC anywhere.

As soon as Ireland has an extensive on street charging network and motorway rapid charging i'd be all for it.

But at the moment suggesting finances are spent to deploy rapid chargers that would only be used 50% of the time and requiring people to go to a different place than where they live with a risk that there isn't a charger avaiable doesn't make sense

Until then people will have range anxiety, it won't matter what size battery they have as they'll always wait until it's nearly empty to get the max charging rate out of a DC charger and then have a crappy experience if the chargers are not available.

McGiver

liamog wrote: »

I've addressed your point multiple times about why there are currently more examples of AC deployments than DC. I'm not sure why you keep ignoring it.

No, you didn't.

This has nothing to do with Irish deployments, 50kW DC is being rolled out in multiple places across Europe to address charging requirements in locations where people spend between 30 minutes and one hour. You asked for an example in a mature EV market, and I found you some.

DC is being deployed across Europe almost exclusively on motorway routes, because that's what's critical and what's required. Unlike in the most developed EV markets (NO, SV, NL, AT) which already do have this in place, so they just deploy UFC/HPC DC instead.

Nowhere is DC being deployed in cities en masse, simply nowhere, not even in NL or NO. Whereas AC is being deployed all the time.

Why do you think IE will develop differently? DC hubs in cities will be a cherry on top at best. It's entirely predictable, because it has happened elsewhere. You'll see focus on motorway/petrol station DC/UFC and massive expansion of AC.

Look at goingelectric.de and see the breakdown of chargers DC vs AC in all markets - the numbers are quite clear.

liamog

Ok, I'll repeat it, because you appear to have missed the point

liamog wrote:

DC charging hubs did not make sense when cars had small batteries, as cars normalise at the 300km range, 50-75kWh batteries will become normal.

I further elaborated the point, when I equated a 22kW AC charger for the original Zoe with it's 22kWh battery, and pointed out that a 50kW DC charger is in fact exactly the same concept, merely mapped to the larger battery sizes.

McGiver wrote: »

DC is being deployed across Europe almost exclusively on motorway routes, because that's what's critical and what's required. Unlike in the most developed EV markets (NO, SV, NL, AT) which already do have this in place, so they just deploy UFC/HPC DC instead.

Nowhere is DC being deployed in cities en masse, simply nowhere, not even in NL or NO. Whereas AC is being deployed all the time.

Why do you think IE will develop differently? DC hubs in cities will be a cherry on top at best. It's entirely predictable, because it has happened elsewhere. You'll see focus on motorway/petrol station DC/UFC and massive expansion of AC.

I already provided a Norwegian example, here's an example from The Netherlands https://www.plugshare.com/location/220420.
Not a perfect example, as it's at a fuel station rather than a shopping area like this one https://www.plugshare.com/location/116548

The only person who's pushing the narrative that this is an exclusively Irish solution is yourself, so again I ask you why do you believe Ireland should be an exception and only deploy AC chargers at non motorway sites?

redcup342

liamog wrote: »

Ok, I'll repeat it, because you appear to have missed the point



I further elaborated the point, when I equated a 22kW AC charger for the original Zoe with it's 22kWh battery, and pointed out that a 50kW DC charger is in fact exactly the same concept, merely mapped to the larger battery sizes.



I already provided a Norwegian example, here's an example from The Netherlands https://www.plugshare.com/location/220420.
Not a perfect example, as it's at a fuel station rather than a shopping area like this one https://www.plugshare.com/location/116548

The only person who's pushing the narrative that this is an exclusively Irish solution is yourself, so again I ask you why do you believe Ireland should be an exception and only deploy AC chargers at non motorway sites?

That Fastned Charger is a link for the N200

It's an industrial estate.

Even if you did provide a good example the Netherlands and Norway already have an extensive on and off street charging network deployed (Mostly AC and not including home charging in Norway of course)

Also don't forget the Norwegians are loaded

I'll ask you a question:

Small Dutch City- Bergen of Zoom, Population 67000


around 100 cars can be charged at the same time and the chargers are used 24x7 (with little to no maintence I might add)

Now we look at Galway, Population 80000


Explain to me how you would deploy a charging hub servicing 100 cars that operates 24x7 and doesn't require the driver to wait for their car to charge for the same money.

liamog

redcup342 wrote: »

Explain to me how you would deploy a charging hub servicing 100 cars that operates 24x7 and doesn't require the driver to wait for their car to charge for the same money.

Why does the hub need to operate 24/7 and have the same up front cost. You've alluded to having project management experience. If I'm a charging operator, I should be looking at return on investment, not minimal investment costs.

100 AC chargers that charge at 11kW, is functionally equivalent to 20 DC chargers that charge at 50kW. Instead of each car needing 5 hours to onboard 50kWh, they can do so in 60 mins. This aligns with the average trip to a supermarket.

I seem to remember you can't leave your car at a supermarket charger because your wife regularly decides to spontaneously go clothes shopping whilst presumably physically restraining you from returning to your vehicle to move it.
Most people will not have this problem, and will either be finished, or be able to quickly reposition their vehicle if their plans change.

The only people on this thread arguing for no AC at all, are the two using as a counter argument to there should be DC chargers at supermarket locations, why do you see it as a zero sum game?

redcup342

liamog wrote: »

Why does the hub need to operate 24/7 and have the same up front cost. You've alluded to having project management experience. If I'm a charging operator, I should be looking at return on investment, not minimal investment costs.

100 AC chargers that charge at 11kW, is functionally equivalent to 20 DC chargers that charge at 50kW. Instead of each car needing 5 hours to onboard 50kWh, they can do so in 60 mins. This aligns with the average trip to a supermarket.

I seem to remember you can't leave your car at a supermarket charger because your wife regularly decides to spontaneously go clothes shopping whilst presumably physically restraining you from returning to your vehicle to move it.
Most people will not have this problem, and will either be finished, or be able to quickly reposition their vehicle if their plans change.

The only people on this thread arguing for no AC at all, are the two using as a counter argument to there should be DC chargers at supermarket locations, why do you see it as a zero sum game?

Well my missus doesn't have anything to do with it really

But lets do the numbers shall we ?

Your Charging hub by your own admission would be used when people do other things (such as shopping) and the peak period would be after work (so probably between 18:00 and 22:00) i.e. queue.

So the rest of the time nobody has any reason to be there and you'll have a quiet period from 9am - 12pm and 2pm - 5pm with Lunchtime (but we'll leave that out as well)

Assuming all charging stations were being utilised at a full 50kW and cars lined up one after another (100% utilisation) I'll be generous and we'll say they can be used for 14 hours a day.

Now you can extend this 14 hour period if you like but then that would mean people are going there just to sit in the car and charge, since they cannot leave the car overnight.

DC Charging Hub
50x20 = 1000kW * 14 (hours) = Potential 14000kWh

AC Charging Points distributed all over the area:
100x11= 1100kW * 24 (hours) = Potential 26400 kWh

The AC Points can be used whenever anyone stops someplace they need to be and also be used to charge overnight if needs be.

Also the AC points need hardly any maintenence, the end user also brings their own cable to plug in so thats one less thing to go wrong.

liamog

Well here's how I worked it out in Excel.

60% utilisation for an AC11 charger, 30% utilisation for a DC50 charger
€4,000 for the AC, €25,000 for the DC. Annual maintenance, 5% for AC, 10% for DC. Operating time 5 years.
We install 91 2x11kW AC chargers, up front cost €364,000 (financed €411,418.66). Annual maintenance over 5 years €91,000. Total cost over 5 years €502,418.
We install 40 1x50kW DC chargers, up front cost €1,000,000 (financed €1,130,271.05). Annual maintenance over 5 years €500,000. Total cost over 5 years, €1,630,271.
The upfront costs are financed at 5%, maintenance is paid from operating income.

kWh dispensed over the 5 years equals (power * hours in day * days in year * years / utilisation factor)
AC = 52,612,560 kWh.
DC = 26,280,000 kWh.

Operating cost per kWh for each option, is (5 year cost / kWh dispensed)
AC = 0.0095 c/kWh
DC = 0.0620 c/kWh

In terms of ROI, there just isn't that much between the two. If you can charge your customer's an extra 8c/kWh, for DC chargers in a district, then you can make more money than by providing AC chargers.

I've sold about half the electricity for the investment in DC, but made the same ROI. Giving me scope to roll out a second site.

redcup342

liamog wrote: »

Well here's how I worked it out in Excel.

60% utilisation for an AC11 charger, 30% utilisation for a DC50 charger
€4,000 for the AC, €25,000 for the DC. Annual maintenance, 5% for AC, 10% for DC. Operating time 5 years.
We install 91 2x11kW AC chargers, up front cost €364,000 (financed €411,418.66). Annual maintenance over 5 years €91,000. Total cost over 5 years €502,418.
We install 40 1x50kW DC chargers, up front cost €1,000,000 (financed €1,130,271.05). Annual maintenance over 5 years €500,000. Total cost over 5 years, €1,630,271.
The upfront costs are financed at 5%, maintenance is paid from operating income.

kWh dispensed over the 5 years equals (power * hours in day * days in year * years / utilisation factor)
AC = 52,612,560 kWh.
DC = 26,280,000 kWh.

Operating cost per kWh for each option, is (5 year cost / kWh dispensed)
AC = 0.0095 c/kWh
DC = 0.0620 c/kWh

In terms of ROI, there just isn't that much between the two. If you can charge your customer's an extra 8c/kWh, for DC chargers in a district, then you can make more money than by providing AC chargers.

I've sold about half the electricity for the investment in DC, but made the same ROI. Giving me scope to roll out a second site.

So you favor having 40x50kW charging points that will only really be used during working hours.

vs 182 Charging points (91 Chargers) which are available 24x7 :pac:

You haven't answered my question:
"Explain to me how you would deploy a charging hub servicing 100 cars that operates 24x7 and doesn't require the driver to wait for their car to charge for the same money."

If you can't answer that I'm out :pac:

liamog

redcup342 wrote: »

You haven't answered my question:
"Explain to me how you would deploy a charging hub servicing 100 cars that operates 24x7 and doesn't require the driver to wait for their car to charge for the same money."

You didn't answer my follow up question.

liamog wrote:

Why does the hub need to operate 24/7 and have the same up front cost. You've alluded to having project management experience. If I'm a charging operator, I should be looking at return on investment, not minimal investment costs.

I don't see why this is the objective of any charging network, the objective is to make money whilst providing charging services to customers.

McGiver

liamog wrote: »

Well here's how I worked it out in Excel.

60% utilisation for an AC11 charger, 30% utilisation for a DC50 charger
€4,000 for the AC, €25,000 for the DC. Annual maintenance, 5% for AC, 10% for DC. Operating time 5 years.
We install 91 2x11kW AC chargers, up front cost €364,000 (financed €411,418.66). Annual maintenance over 5 years €91,000. Total cost over 5 years €502,418.
We install 40 1x50kW DC chargers, up front cost €1,000,000 (financed €1,130,271.05). Annual maintenance over 5 years €500,000. Total cost over 5 years, €1,630,271.
The upfront costs are financed at 5%, maintenance is paid from operating income.

kWh dispensed over the 5 years equals (power * hours in day * days in year * years / utilisation factor)
AC = 52,612,560 kWh.
DC = 26,280,000 kWh.

Operating cost per kWh for each option, is (5 year cost / kWh dispensed)
AC = 0.0095 c/kWh
DC = 0.0620 c/kWh

In terms of ROI, there just isn't that much between the two. If you can charge your customer's an extra 8c/kWh, for DC chargers in a district, then you can make more money than by providing AC chargers.

I've sold about half the electricity for the investment in DC, but made the same ROI. Giving me scope to roll out a second site.

The figures are quite sound. Would expect lower occupancy for DC, perhaps 20% and probably higher maintenance. And higher upfront costs.

You should start your own DC charging network then! Maybe you ask the EasyGo fella why it doesn't really work like that in reality. Something must be missing from the equation :cool:

liamog

McGiver wrote: »

The figures are quite sound. Would expect lower occupancy for DC, perhaps 20% and probably higher maintenance. And higher upfront costs.

You should start your own DC charging network then! Maybe you ask the EasyGo fella why it doesn't really work like that in reality. Something must be missing from the equation :cool:

It will come down to penetration rates, we don't have enough EVs on the road, at 30% occupancy the charger needs to sell 2,520 kWh per week. An average EV that does 18kWh/100km requires 58.8kWh per week, meaning we need 42.8 EVs to use the charger consistently. Stats from previous studies put DC charging at around 15%, though that was when battery sizes were smaller. If we estimate it at around 10%, then we need around 430 EVs in the immediate area to make the DC charger viable.

Kramer

liamog wrote: »

we need around 430 EVs in the immediate area to make the DC charger viable.

Do you mean those 430 EV owners are charging 90% at home then?
If so & hypothetically, if each had a 58.8kWh battery, each would charge publically, on a DC charger, just once every 10 weeks (5.88kWh weekly).

It's certainly not a get rich quick scheme for a private provider - I'm beginning to think we're lucky we have ECars :pac:.

liamog

Kramer wrote: »

Do you mean those 430 EV owners are charging 90% at home then?
If so & hypothetically, if each had a 58.8kWh battery, each would charge publically, on a DC charger, just once every 10 weeks (5.88kWh weekly).

It's certainly not a get rich quick scheme for a private provider - I'm beginning to think we're lucky we have ECars :pac:.

That's roughly how it averages out based on previous studies. 85% of charging happened at home or the workplace.

the_amazing_raisin

Has anyone done any research into how much the DC chargers cost to install?

All I could find was a paper from the US:
https://theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/ICCT_EV_Charging_Cost_20190813.pdf

They're estimating ~$28k for 50kW and $75k for 150kW

I'm trying to figure out the payback period for a DC charger and so far it's looking like this

Charger cost + installation: €25,000 (just guessing from that link above)
Charging cost per kWh: €0.33/kWh
Cost of electricity: €0.13/kWh (cheapest prices on bonkers are €0.14, I'm assuming the ESB can get power cheaper)
Profit: €0.20/kWh

Payback sales required: 125,000kWh (€25,000 / €0.20/kwh)
Payback period: 2500 hours (assuming 100% usage) = 104 days

There's several problems with my maths though

1. Chargers probably cost quite a bit more
2. The cost of electricity probably varies a lot since those high power connections are charged by rate of usage
3. Usage isn't even close to 100%, probably closer to 10%

Plugging in something more realistic

Charger cost + installation: €30,000
Charging cost per kWh: €0.33/kWh
Cost of electricity: €0.18/kWh
Profit: €0.15/kWh

Payback sales required: 200,000kWh (€30,000 / €0.15/kwh)
Payback period: 20000 hours (assuming 10% usage) = 833 days = just over 2 years

I guess I'm trying to figure out if utility companies are likely to make a profit off fast charging (without government support). It seems very heavily coupled to usage, so I guess we're always going to be in a situation where we don't have enough chargers


Just for a laugh, what if a service station provided chargers and every person charging bought a coffee, lets see what happens then

Charger cost + installation: €30,000
Charging cost per kWh: €0.33/kWh
Cost of electricity: €0.18/kWh
Average charging session: 30 mins @ 50kW = 25kWh
Profit per cup of coffee: €2 (total guesswork on my part)
Profit per session: (€0.15/kWh * 25kWh) + €2 = €5.75

Payback sessions required: 5217
Payback period @ 5 sessions per day: 1043 days = 2.85 years
Payback period @ 10 sessions per day: 521 = 1.4 years

Looks like the argument for service stations using chargers to entice customers isn't too bad

liamog

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Has anyone done any research into how much the DC chargers cost to install?

I pulled your post into this thread, there was some detailed discussion on this a few pages ago

the_amazing_raisin

liamog wrote: »

I pulled your post into this thread, there was some detailed discussion on this a few pages ago

Thanks, with so many charging threads it's hard to know where to go sometimes

McGiver

cruisey1987 wrote:

Looks like the argument for service stations using chargers to entice customers isn't too bad

Yes and that's why petrol stations in many countries from Norway, through Austria to Czechia jumped on the wagon. Also it's a business that's only going to scale up with time. It's an investment.

For other operators (not petrol station related), banks of AC in cities are a better business opportunity. Else DC at selected motorway spots but they are mostly taken.

innrain

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Has anyone done any research into how much the DC chargers cost to install?

All I could find was a paper from the US:
https://theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/ICCT_EV_Charging_Cost_20190813.pdf

...

Just for a laugh, what if a service station provided chargers and every person charging bought a coffee, lets see what happens then

Charger cost + installation: €30,000
Charging cost per kWh: €0.33/kWh
Cost of electricity: €0.18/kWh
Average charging session: 30 mins @ 50kW = 25kWh
Profit per cup of coffee: €2 (total guesswork on my part)
Profit per session: (€0.15/kWh * 25kWh) + €2 = €5.75

Payback sessions required: 5217
Payback period @ 5 sessions per day: 1043 days = 2.85 years
Payback period @ 10 sessions per day: 521 = 1.4 years

Looks like the argument for service stations using chargers to entice customers isn't too bad

Quite nice article. I speed read it but I need more time to analyze it as is packed with data.

While you calculations are a bit crude I don't think you're far away. You probably have a higher cost for electricity but you don't count for support etc. Another thing to mention is that these chargers qualify for ACA which essentially reduces your tax bill.

Now consider the supermarket scenario.

My weekly grocery bill is 150 -200. (probably more now as it includes the booze). If DS installs a charger and steals me from Tesco that is a €10k a year business assured. (and 10k less for the competition which probably counts more). So whatever money they do charging me for electricity can easily go towards charger costs. That is only from one family. And while is nothing now when there are only 10k EVs on the street in few years time when 20% of the cars would be EVs this will actually count. To run a petrol station now you need license and lots. To have a charger installed in your car park you don't need even planning permission (with some limitations)

Another scenario. A medium sized local shop. Corner shops are crying that are pushed towards extinction by the big ones. This is one way to be relevant. If you can make me get there I will probably carve 50 quid from my weekly booze stipend to spend there.

Few weeks ago when the debate AC/DC was heated I looked on plugshare at Amsterdam to see what others are doing. While it is true there are a lot of AC points, there are a lot of DC ones. After 8 I gave up counting McDonalds chargers, lots of hotels but the best one for me was this. https://www.plugshare.com/location/129851 (check pictures). I would probably get all my meetings in there charging or not.

redcup342

innrain wrote: »

Few weeks ago when the debate AC/DC was heated I looked on plugshare at Amsterdam to see what others are doing. While it is true there are a lot of AC points, there are a lot of DC ones. After 8 I gave up counting McDonalds chargers, lots of hotels but the best one for me was this. https://www.plugshare.com/location/129851 (check pictures). I would probably get all my meetings in there charging or not.

That's in Amstelveen, a bit outside Amsterdam.

Those DC Chargers are practically impossible to get spot on, I've driven up to one, car with blue plates sitting there (Taxi/Uber) told me it was busy, another Uber drove up and they exchanged cars, they have a Whatsapp group.

There's also around 100 Tesla Model S floating around Schipol nearby that use those DC chargers regularly (turns into a bit of a war against Taxi and Uber drivers sometimes)

the_amazing_raisin

McGiver wrote: »

Yes and that's why petrol stations in many countries from Norway, through Austria to Czechia jumped on the wagon. Also it's a business that's only going to scale up with time. It's an investment.

For other operators (not petrol station related), banks of AC in cities are a better business opportunity. Else DC at selected motorway spots but they are mostly taken.

I think it's related to dwell time, or at least it should be. It's nice that supermarkets are installing 22kW, but the reality is that most EVs can't take 22kW charging.


A typical weekly shop is probably 1 hours from parking to driving away. In that time you'll probably only gain 7kWh or 11kWh depending on charging speed. Even a Zoe will only gain 22kWh, which is less than 50% SoC for a ZE50


A 50kW DC charger would be more useful in this case as you can recover a lot of your battery charge in that time. The infrastructure for 2x50kW chargers is basically the same as 4x22kW chargers, so the main difference is the cost of the charger itself. You could even install those dual outlet chargers which can share the 50kW load, so you'd still have 4 cars charging in parallel

the_amazing_raisin

innrain wrote: »

Another scenario. A medium sized local shop. Corner shops are crying that are pushed towards extinction by the big ones. This is one way to be relevant. If you can make me get there I will probably carve 50 quid from my weekly booze stipend to spend there.

It'd be great to see local councils and retail groups get together to install some charging in town centres, which is where most of those struggling businesses would be located. If they could carve out a lot for a few DC and AC chargers then you have a charging hub which would pull in a few customers for local businesses.


You could even do a 'locals' deal where residents could get an hour of free parking while charging or a discount on the charging rate or something

redcup342

cruisey1987 wrote: »

I think it's related to dwell time, or at least it should be. It's nice that supermarkets are installing 22kW, but the reality is that most EVs can't take 22kW charging.


A typical weekly shop is probably 1 hours from parking to driving away. In that time you'll probably only gain 7kWh or 11kWh depending on charging speed. Even a Zoe will only gain 22kWh, which is less than 50% SoC for a ZE50


A 50kW DC charger would be more useful in this case as you can recover a lot of your battery charge in that time. The infrastructure for 2x50kW chargers is basically the same as 4x22kW chargers, so the main difference is the cost of the charger itself. You could even install those dual outlet chargers which can share the 50kW load, so you'd still have 4 cars charging in parallel

That's like 50-60km of added range in an hour, add up all the time your vehicle is parked and that's way more than most people actually drive.

You don't need to charge up completely in one sitting if you have easy access to chargers.

Wide availability of charging means you don't have to wait for a charger and you don't have to wait for your vehicle to charge.

I drove just over 3400 km in the last month, the only times i've had to wait while charging was while using DC Fast Charging, rest of the kWh (80%) was loaded while I was doing other things (shopping/swimming/hiking/working/sleeping/watching TV)

Lots and lots of Charging points all over place (not centralised) means you are never waiting to use one and the location you are going to has a charging option nearby.

I'll even take a 13 amp plug socket if it's going

ELM327

redcup342 wrote: »

That's like 50-60km of added range in an hour, add up all the time your vehicle is parked and that's way more than most people actually drive.

You don't need to charge up completely in one sitting if you have easy access to chargers.

Wide availability of charging means you don't have to wait for a charger and you don't have to wait for your vehicle to charge.

I drove just over 3400 km in the last month, the only times i've had to wait while charging was while using DC Fast Charging, rest of the kWh (80%) was loaded while I was doing other things (shopping/swimming/hiking/working/sleeping/watching TV)

Lots and lots of Charging points all over place (not centralised) means you are never waiting to use one and the location you are going to has a charging option nearby.

I'll even take a 13 amp plug socket if it's going

We don't have that in Ireland though.

innrain

cruisey1987 wrote: »

It'd be great to see local councils and retail groups get together to install some charging in town centres, which is where most of those struggling businesses would be located. If they could carve out a lot for a few DC and AC chargers then you have a charging hub which would pull in a few customers for local businesses.


You could even do a 'locals' deal where residents could get an hour of free parking while charging or a discount on the charging rate or something

And the beauty is they they have a range of grants available. One specially designed to cater for AC chargers installation in their car parks
https://www.seai.ie/grants/electric-vehicle-grants/public-charge-point/

It's up to 10k for a dual socket charger. You would think they will stampede to get on board. One year after the grant was announced I was trying to contact my LA but I got stonewalled. But the press wrote about the thousand chargers LAs will install.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/councils-to-install-up-to-1-000-on-street-electric-car-charging-points-1.3996963

it's a 5 year funding. How many in the first year?

ei9go

Deleted User wrote: »

I think you're dead wrong there, you're missing the fact that there are many People with no home charging and blocked by management companies, land lords etc from installing charge points with no form of legislation in the works to make charging a legal right, these people will depend entirely on the public network but will probably be the least likely to change to EV, but they will at the last minute.

More and more EV owners on the streets means more demand on the network as people take holidays and need somewhere to charge.

People without access to home charging shouldn't buy EV's . It makes no sense from a time or money perspective.

garo

If we had a charging infrastructure like say Netherlands then people would buy EVs without home charge points. Saying that people who live in apartments should not buy EVs is shortsighted and unfair to those people.

the_amazing_raisin

ei9go wrote: »

People without access to home charging shouldn't buy EV's . It makes no sense from a time or money perspective.

I agree that you lose a lot of the financial and convenience benefits when you don't have a home charger

But something needs to be done, and until there's a bunch of people screaming at councils and management companies to install chargers then nothing will be done.