DART coming to Maynooth line in 2024

ongarboy

Maynooth DART extension will see six crossings closed

http://www.rte.ie/news/leinster/2020/0826/1161397-dart-extension/

Just saw this on RTE news site. I know it was often proposed but seeing a delivery date of just 4 years time makes it feel much more real now. This will be a major game changer for much of D15.

I wonder which level crossings will be closed? Porterstown surely? Coolmine residents have expressed concerns about being cut off though per the article. Surely the level crossing at Coolmine station will remain accessible for regular traffic? I'd have thought that was too major a route to cut off?

BonnieSituation

Residents need to get their heads out of their holes.

15 trains an hour will mean the gates are down more than up. It's a traffic and safety issue to get rid of LCs.

There's solutions easily found for this.

Not improving transport infrastructure for the majority just because biddy needs to go to the post office once a month is nonsensical.

L1011

ongarboy wrote: »

I wonder which level crossings will be closed? Porterstown surely? Coolmine residents have expressed concerns about being cut off though per the article. Surely the level crossing at Coolmine station will remain accessible for regular traffic? I'd have thought that was too major a route to cut off?

Porterstown and Clonsilla village; both to get pedestrian/cycle bridges only.

Coolmine will get a pedestrian/cycle bridge and a road bridge a bit further away, as proposed before and opposed by lots of politicians.

None of the crossings will remain open at all - at peak 15tph they would barely be up between 7 and 10/4 and 7 anyway; and they are a safety risk as well as an operational hassle.

digiman

Is it 15 trains per hour per direction during peak? That would be amazing!

Zaph

Any word on whether Docklands station will be part of the upgrade?

Cathmandooo

L1011 wrote: »

Porterstown and Clonsilla village; both to get pedestrian/cycle bridges only.

Coolmine will get a pedestrian/cycle bridge and a road bridge a bit further away, as proposed before and opposed by lots of politicians.

None of the crossings will remain open at all - at peak 15tph they would barely be up between 7 and 10/4 and 7 anyway; and they are a safety risk as well as an operational hassle.

I can't imagine where a road bridge a bit further from the Coolmine crossing would be? Unless Stationcourt into Riverwood? I can't see any other option.

L1011

Zaph wrote: »

Any word on whether Docklands station will be part of the upgrade?

Full replacement with a new station at Spencer Dock Luas station.

Cathmandooo wrote: »

I can't imagine where a road bridge a bit further from the Coolmine crossing would be? Unless Stationcourt into Riverwood? I can't see any other option.

http://rodericogorman.com/?p=1945 is the old proposal; I think the new one is basically the same but with a convoluted pedestrian and cycle bridge at the station.

Pinch Flat

I'm in two minds about it - great to see electrification which has been mooted since I moved to the area in 2001. The traffic bridge through riverwood (assuming the previous proposal is run with) will bring a huge amount of traffic into riverwood.

Brock Turnpike

L1011 wrote: »

Porterstown and Clonsilla village; both to get pedestrian/cycle bridges only.

Coolmine will get a pedestrian/cycle bridge and a road bridge a bit further away, as proposed before and opposed by lots of politicians.

None of the crossings will remain open at all - at peak 15tph they would barely be up between 7 and 10/4 and 7 anyway; and they are a safety risk as well as an operational hassle.

As someone impacted by the level crossing traffic at Clonsilla every day, I would be very happy if this were the case.

Former Former

Cathmandooo wrote: »

I can't imagine where a road bridge a bit further from the Coolmine crossing would be? Unless Stationcourt into Riverwood? I can't see any other option.

Yeah that's exactly it.

The residents of Riverwood and Luttrell Park are going to freak.

Former Former

Details here.

https://www.irishrail.ie/en-IE/about-us/iarnrod-eireann-projects-and-investments/DART-Programme/DART-West-Public-Consultation

Can't see how closing the crossing at Clonsilla is going to work.

I dunno lads. This DART line has been announced a million times in the last 20 years. I'll believe it when I see it.

ongarboy

Former Former wrote: »

Details here.

https://www.irishrail.ie/en-IE/about-us/iarnrod-eireann-projects-and-investments/DART-Programme/DART-West-Public-Consultation

Can't see how closing the crossing at Clonsilla is going to work.

I dunno lads. This DART line has been announced a million times in the last 20 years. I'll believe it when I see it.

Unless it ties in with the new Lucan to Clonee road that is to be built behind Hansfield Educate Together school, this reducing volumes that need to go through the Clonsilla level crossing.

L1011

ongarboy wrote: »

Unless it ties in with the new Lucan to Clonee road that is to be built behind Hansfield Educate Together school, this reducing volumes that need to go through the Clonsilla level crossing.

It does, its on the drawings in the lightest of grey lines possible.

As for announcements - at no time in the prior 20 years has anything even vaguely close to this level of design work been done. A few bridges were rebuilt higher when the re-dualling was done and that was it; everything else was announcements of nothing.

beauf

L1011 wrote: »

It does, its on the drawings in the lightest of grey lines possible.

As for announcements - at no time in the prior 20 years has anything even vaguely close to this level of design work been done. A few bridges were rebuilt higher when the re-dualling was done and that was it; everything else was announcements of nothing.

True. But they didn't do completely nothing. As the Docklands got busier they made the train shorter. They increased the frequency of passengers passing out and falling ill.

We also got some new black seats and USB ports. Well on some trains. Don't go mad.

Roll on the next 20 yrs.

Pinch Flat

Former Former wrote: »

Details here.

https://www.irishrail.ie/en-IE/about-us/iarnrod-eireann-projects-and-investments/DART-Programme/DART-West-Public-Consultation

Can't see how closing the crossing at Clonsilla is going to work.

I dunno lads. This DART line has been announced a million times in the last 20 years. I'll believe it when I see it.

I'm due to have my free travel in 2035. I'd be amazed if it's rolled out by then.I bought my house in Riverwood in 2001 and one of the selling points was the electrification of the maynooth line.

beauf

Former Former wrote: »

Yeah that's exactly it.

The residents of Riverwood and Luttrell Park are going to freak.

The Dr Troy bridge and new road to Porterstown have worked so well at creating grid lock at peak times and most of the weekend. Its now one of the best rat runs in the the area. How many schools are on in the immediate vicinity now, 5 or 6? Perfect for concentrating traffic all in the same area. So running another bridge besides the existing bridge into the middle of all that and doubling traffic. It's a perfect match for all the apartments they have planned.

Who wouldn't want more of that.

In fairness the greenway is coming. Only bad thing is I'll probably be retired before it all gets done. WFH nicely timed really.

L1011

beauf wrote: »

True. But they didn't do completely nothing. As the Docklands got busier they made the train shorter. They increased the frequency of passengers passing out and falling ill.

We also got some new black seats and USB ports. Well on some trains. Don't go mad.

Roll on the next 20 yrs.

Docklands used to get either 4 car 29000s or 3 car 22000s

It has consistently got either 4 car 29000s or 4 car 22000s recently - that's longer, not shoter.

Brock Turnpike

beauf wrote: »

The Dr Troy bridge and new road to Porterstown have worked so well at creating grid lock at peak times and most of the weekend. Its now one of the best rat runs in the the area. How many schools are on in the immediate vicinity now, 5 or 6? Perfect for concentrating traffic all in the same area. So running another bridge besides the existing bridge into the middle of all that and doubling traffic. It's a perfect match for all the apartments they have planned.

Who wouldn't want more of that.

In fairness the greenway is coming. Only bad thing is I'll probably be retired before it all gets done. WFH nicely timed really.

You'd think that if lockdown had thought the government anything, it would be that flexibility is the way to go when it comes to working hours and school hours. Why have everyone trying to use the same roads at one time when you can stagger it by having people WFH and/or schools times staggered

beauf

L1011 wrote: »

Docklands used to get either 4 car 29000s or 3 car 22000s

It has consistently got either 4 car 29000s or 4 car 22000s recently - that's longer, not shoter.

I can't remember when I last got a 4 car on this line. Not for years.

I haven't been on it for the last 5 months. If they've extended to 4 during the lock down I'd not be surprised.

Zaph

Pinch Flat wrote: »

I'm due to have my free travel in 2035. I'd be amazed if it's rolled out by then.I bought my house in Riverwood in 2001 and one of the selling points was the electrification of the maynooth line.

Same for me when I bought in the area in 2004. Only thing is that I only have to wait until 2032 to retire, and then I'm buggered if I'm ever getting on another train into town again.

L1011 wrote: »

Docklands used to get either 4 car 29000s or 3 car 22000s

It has consistently got either 4 car 29000s or 4 car 22000s recently - that's longer, not shoter.

Like beauf, I haven't been on a train since March, but prior to that both the Docklands trains that I got each day were 3-carriage 22000s. Once in a blue moon there might be a 4-carriage one in the evening, but they were very much a rarity. Maybe at other times they were mainly 4-carriage trains, but the one in the morning in particular resembled something from a developing country. All we were short of was people on the roof.

beauf

Its bit of kicker seeing 8 carriage trains almost empty going in the opposite direction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyfMbUF9i-8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dsgbir3udVA

When I started getting the dockland about 5 or 6 years ago there were 4 carriage trains. Train was mostly empty. I used never need to fold my bike.
Obviously its great they are fully utilized. There's a shortage of stock I understand. Docklands seem to be lowest priority, perhaps with good reason.

beauf

I wonder will I ever go back to commuting daily by train again. Not for another year at least I suspect.

L1011

Didn't see it on the public docs; but I'm sure its there - but from the docs sent to Councillors, they seem to be proposing straightening/widening the really bad stretch of the road at the north of Luttrelstown to take account of extra traffic going either side to cross in the absense of the Clonsilla LC.

Polar101

DART+ West.. sounds excellent, but I seem to remember the track record for actually getting public transport projects past the glossy brochures stage isn't great.

L1011

Polar101 wrote: »

DART+ West.. sounds excellent, but I seem to remember the track record for actually getting public transport projects past the glossy brochures stage isn't great.

Only one project that got to this level of design stage was canned outright (Metro North), and its being replaced anyway. DART Underground has basically been put in cryogenic storage but it'll happen.

Brock Turnpike

L1011 wrote: »

Didn't see it on the public docs; but I'm sure its there - but from the docs sent to Councillors, they seem to be proposing straightening/widening the really bad stretch of the road at the north of Luttrelstown to take account of extra traffic going either side to cross in the absense of the Clonsilla LC.

Another welcome piece of news. Honestly don't know there hasn't been more accidents on that stretch of road given the mix of cyclists and impatient drivers using it. The amount of times I've witnessed drivers overtaking on/near bends is ridiculous.

Orobhsa

Proposal is to close Clonsilla LC to vehicles and install pedestrian bridge.


Clonsilla Level Crossing
The Emerging Preferred Option provides a new pedestrian and cycle bridge over the railway to the west of the existing level crossing. Given the low traffic flows utilising the level crossing, combined with the proposed new road bridge at Barberstown to the west and the Diswellstown Link Road to the east of the crossing, the optimal solution has been determined as providing a pedestrian and cyclist bridge

https://www.irishrail.ie/Admin/getmedia/c45be4c4-de84-48e2-8437-f90ad7097383/Emerging-Preferred-Option-Clonsilla-Level-Crossing-Replacement-jpg.jpg

rockatansky

Orobhsa wrote: »

Proposal is to close Clonsilla LC to vehicles and install pedestrian bridge.


Clonsilla Level Crossing
The Emerging Preferred Option provides a new pedestrian and cycle bridge over the railway to the west of the existing level crossing. Given the low traffic flows utilising the level crossing, combined with the proposed new road bridge at Barberstown to the west and the Diswellstown Link Road to the east of the crossing, the optimal solution has been determined as providing a pedestrian and cyclist bridge

https://www.irishrail.ie/Admin/getmedia/c45be4c4-de84-48e2-8437-f90ad7097383/Emerging-Preferred-Option-Clonsilla-Level-Crossing-Replacement-jpg.jpg

That is an absolute monstrosity.

L1011

rockatansky wrote: »

That is an absolute monstrosity.

There is no alternative location for a road bridge.

Former Former

rockatansky wrote: »

That is an absolute monstrosity.

Yep, absolutely enormous. I ain't no engineer but surely there's a more elegant solution.

beauf

I was getting tired of hoofing my folding bikes over the existing pedestrian bridge. That cycle bridge would be great. No longer do it though.

Orobhsa

The main report shows a number of vehicle options with two to be evaluated further along with ped bridge:

https://www.irishrail.ie/Admin/getmedia/8b669bab-7b1c-4ef6-9667-d2494faae813/Preliminary-Options-Selection-Report_Main-Report.pdf

P153

* Option 1 – Pedestrian and Cycle Bridge;
• Option 2 – Overbridge 200m to the east of the existing crossing; and
• Option 4 – Overbridge 210m to the west of existing crossing.

Option 2 goes from the new Lidl over canal to entrance to Luttlerstown Castle.
Option 4 does a kind of S shape from West of entrance to Portersgate to around where the entrance to the allotments is.

Congestion along the Clonsilla rd past St Mochta and over Dr Troy bridge is a disaster at peak times- schools back tomorrow.

Also access to Beechpark, Westmanstown, St Catherines Park, Lucan would be much more inconvenient without a vehicular crossing.

Brock Turnpike

Orobhsa wrote: »

Also access to Beechpark, Westmanstown, St Catherines Park, Lucan would be much more inconvenient without a vehicular crossing.

As someone mentioned earlier, that new road from Hansfield out to Lucan would be the alternative to all the places you mentioned

beauf

Brock Turnpike wrote: »

Another welcome piece of news. Honestly don't know there hasn't been more accidents on that stretch of road given the mix of cyclists and impatient drivers using it. The amount of times I've witnessed drivers overtaking on/near bends is ridiculous.

It was always a rat run. But then they built a ton of housing at one end and opened a load of access at the other end of it. That traffic has increased multi fold was a enviable result. It's a winding country road was never suitable for the volume of traffic now using it.

beauf

Brock Turnpike wrote: »

As someone mentioned earlier, that new road from Hansfield out to Lucan would be the alternative to all the places you mentioned

Traffic doesn't distribute and balance itself across many roads. As soon as you add capacity more traffic is drawn to it and fills it. People see a new road and decide to switch to using the car because of it.

If you want to avoid traffic, you have to stop being traffic.

ongarboy

Reading through the full Irish Rail document someone shared earlier, I really can't see all these replacement roads, foot bridges and increased height motor access bridges to allow clearance for overhead DART wires to all be approved, tendered and built in 4 years. All it takes is for one residents association to object to one element of the project for vested interests and the whole thing is delayed indefinitely. Is the timeline based on the caveat that there will be no objections?

L1011

Rather different planning process for something of this scale than for a conventional planning application

You would need supremely deep pockets to appeal a grant of a Railway Order. Some of the objections to the various Luas lines were severe and from people who were rather wealthy (remember where the Green Line runs through!) and got nowhere.

Initial planning process is slower as a result.

Dr_Colossus

Orobhsa wrote: »

Proposal is to close Clonsilla LC to vehicles and install pedestrian bridge.


Clonsilla Level Crossing
The Emerging Preferred Option provides a new pedestrian and cycle bridge over the railway to the west of the existing level crossing. Given the low traffic flows utilising the level crossing, combined with the proposed new road bridge at Barberstown to the west and the Diswellstown Link Road to the east of the crossing, the optimal solution has been determined as providing a pedestrian and cyclist bridge

https://www.irishrail.ie/Admin/getmedia/c45be4c4-de84-48e2-8437-f90ad7097383/Emerging-Preferred-Option-Clonsilla-Level-Crossing-Replacement-jpg.jpg

rockatansky wrote: »

That is an absolute monstrosity.

Former Former wrote: »

Yep, absolutely enormous. I ain't no engineer but surely there's a more elegant solution.

+1, truely hideous. As someone who cycles through the Clonsilla level crossing twice daily I'd prefer no access at all and do nothing and be forced to use the disaster that is the Dr. Troy bridge. In addition to the additional gridlock, roundabouts and traffic lights there's a so called cycle lane on it but the surface is shockingly poor.

Option 2 and variants of it look good and would link in with a roundabout at the new Lidl site and on towards the Ongar distributor road but can't see it happening given the amount of CPOs and size of the development.

Option 4 looks more feasible but would imagine it would require quite a steep gradient from the new bridge to connect back with the Clonsila Road which runs quite close to the canal. That said I guess no steeper than the current level crossing so hopefully Option 4 gets the go ahead.

beauf

As a cyclist, my only issue with Dr Troy bridge is the the usual issue is the transitions, between road and cycle path and also the junctions, theres no flow. But thats typical for these to be bad, whomever designed them doesn't seem to be cyclist. Theres also a nasty lip between tarmac and concrete which has the potential to catch you out. Whats bad about the surface?

Larbre34

It would have been logical to preserve space for a major road crossing of the railways and canal through Hansfield towards the South and just dead-end the Clonsilla crossing, but again there was no joined up thinking going on and the site is being intensively developed.

They can't even spell Ongar.

ciaran76

Seeing plenty no to the bridge Facebook Campaign from Riverwood and St. Moctas residents groups.

https://www.riverwoodres.com/2020/08/dart-and-riverwood-court-bridge/

I can understand if I lived there.

Brock Turnpike

Anyone attend, or hear, what went on at, the Emer Currie meeting about this?

beauf

Brock Turnpike wrote: »

Anyone attend, or hear, what went on at, the Emer Currie meeting about this?

No missed it. BB went down just before it. I expect it would be the party line though.

beauf

ciaran76 wrote: »

Seeing plenty no to the bridge Facebook Campaign from Riverwood and St. Moctas residents groups.

https://www.riverwoodres.com/2020/08/dart-and-riverwood-court-bridge/

I can understand if I lived there.

I was on the fence on it. But its turning into a bit of shambles.

They want to not only close coolmine but also close clonsilla, and route all the traffic into riverwood. So instead of one grid locked enormous bridge into a tiny estate they will have two. So rather than dispersing this traffic in a wider area they want to concentrate it all basically in the one spot, two bridges basically beside each other. At peak times you already have Blanch shopping Center traffic backing up into these areas, and they are the main routes out of the area. So they are creating yet more density of traffic all in the same spot.

There were a bunch of other options, but it seems clear they are only really focused on one. If anyone listened to the IR webinar, it seemed they hadn't really any answers prepared for the residents. Granted it was just a initial meeting. To top it all they didn't bcc all the attendee's so that caused a GDPR issue. Which is a minor in the grand scheme of things, but wasn't a great first impression.

Most people want the improvements to the line, and understand its difficult planning issue. But considering there green field locations not far aware, why build it in the middle of a congested area. The planning for Kellystown is now up again another massive development right on the doorstep of this bridge. So all that will come into this also. (why not build it into Kellystown?)

All of the arguments for the bridge were said before they built Dr Troy bridge. It would ease congestion. Instead its like a traffic magnet, and has almost immediately filled to capacity and caused more congestion.

If its going to be gridlock regardless. I think there's a feeling, that just close coolmine, but don't build a new bridge. Let the congestion on Dr Troy bridge force traffic to go some other route, or force people out of their cars in the first place.

Generally though they'll keep at this till they get it.

Brock Turnpike

beauf wrote: »

I was on the fence on it. But its turning into a bit of shambles.

They want to not only close coolmine but also close clonsilla, and route all the traffic into riverwood. So instead of one grid locked enormous bridge into a tiny estate they will have two. So rather than dispersing this traffic in a wider area they want to concentrate it all basically in the one spot, two bridges basically beside each other. At peak times you already have Blanch shopping Center traffic backing up into these areas, and they are the main routes out of the area. So they are creating yet more density of traffic all in the same spot.

There were a bunch of other options, but it seems clear they are only really focused on one. If anyone listened to the IR webinar, it seemed they hadn't really any answers prepared for the residents. Granted it was just a initial meeting. To top it all they didn't bcc all the attendee's so that caused a GDPR issue. Which is a minor in the grand scheme of things, but wasn't a great first impression.

Most people want the improvements to the line, and understand its difficult planning issue. But considering there green field locations not far aware, why build it in the middle of a congested area. The planning for Kellystown is now up again another massive development right on the doorstep of this bridge. So all that will come into this also. (why not build it into Kellystown?)

All of the arguments for the bridge were said before they built Dr Troy bridge. It would ease congestion. Instead its like a traffic magnet, and has almost immediately filled to capacity and caused more congestion.

If its going to be gridlock regardless. I think there's a feeling, that just close coolmine, but don't build a new bridge. Let the congestion on Dr Troy bridge force traffic to go some other route, or force people out of their cars in the first place.

Generally though they'll keep at this till they get it.

All salient points. Ultimately it comes down to the fact their isn't sufficient infrastructure to support the volume of housing that has been built in the area over the past number of years

beauf

..and are continuing to build, and are planning to build more.

Why not build new bridges and massive park and rides into those new developments. Change the paradigm.

The vast majority of this traffic seems not to be local. I wonder how far out the traffic is coming from. Could you scan number plates in multiple locations and see what correlations you chould find.

TheChrisD

beauf wrote: »

They want to not only close coolmine but also close clonsilla, and route all the traffic into riverwood. So instead of one grid locked enormous bridge into a tiny estate they will have two.

They don't want to push Clonsilla traffic through Riverwood - Clonsilla traffic will ideally be pushed to the R149 which should eventually connect to the future Barnhill distributor road.

beauf

Ideally? No idea what that means here. Why would traffic heading to city center go in the opposite direction and head to the 149?

I don't think all this traffic is coming from Clonsilla. There's too much of it. It has to pulling in traffic from a much larger area.

Brock Turnpike

beauf wrote: »

Ideally? No idea what that means here. Why would traffic heading to city center go in the opposite direction and head to the 149?

I don't think all this traffic is coming from Clonsilla. There's too much of it. It has to pulling in traffic from a much larger area.

I would imagine there could be a lot of NB M50 traffic exiting at Lucan and cutting across to D15 in order to avoid Tolls.

beauf

Brock Turnpike wrote: »

I would imagine there could be a lot of NB M50 traffic exiting at Lucan and cutting across to D15 in order to avoid Tolls.

I don't see why such traffic to go anywhere near coolmine, or clonsilla crossing.

Brock Turnpike

Well I live next to Clonsilla crossing, and judging by tailbacks that are coming from Luttrellstown/Lucan direction in the morning, there must be a huge amount of traffic coming from somewhere over there.