DART coming to Maynooth line in 2024

IngazZagni

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Just to clarify, it's not the roads and the volume of traffic that puts people off cycling. It's the agressive and bullying nature of some drivers who look to punish cyclists for simply being in front of them.
But yes, any new infrastructure should be future proofed and include segregated lanes for both cyclists and pedestrians (not having both mixed either!).

Indeed and I see this only as the occasional cyclist. The bridge at the Coolmine crossing would mean this behaviour would continue.

Fiddle Castro

beauf wrote: »

You can't leave a bicycle at coolmine on the rack it will be wrecked. But there are secure bicycle lockers at the station you can pay for.

Ironically one of the reasons stated for not putting a bridge at coolmine, is the there wouldn't be room for cycle lanes and such on it. Which is ironic since the road to get to station doesn't have cycle lanes.

Most people didn't comment on any of this. Since the vast majority drive, don't cycle and don't use the train station anyway.

People would prefer to spend 30 mins in gridlock than 15 mins on a bicycle. So people aren't going to shift to cycling. But for those that do want to cycle there are options.

A cycle lane has been long been planned for Coolmine & Carpenterstown roads but as there is currently a bottleneck at the crossing, it cannot be implemented.

The crossing remaining open is preventing this.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Part-1.pdf

liamog

beauf wrote: »

They are building Kellystown with no bridge over the river. They are going to use the existing one which everyone say is already too congested. They are developing more housing at the back of Ongar, Clonee, but its all using the existing country back roads. There are pushing for another 400+ apartments on Carpenterstown road. That all going to feed into this concentrated bottleneck.

Submit feedback on the Kellystown LAP that a bridge is required. The Barnhill LAP requires the Ongar to Barnhill link road to be in place so does not rely on country back roads.

beauf

Fiddle Castro wrote: »

A cycle lane has been long been planned for Coolmine & Carpenterstown roads but as there is currently a bottleneck at the crossing, it cannot be implemented.

The crossing remaining open is preventing this.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Part-1.pdf

The is none on the Castelknock road, none on Carpenterstown Road, none on Clonsilla road. None on Porterstown road.

Since the cycle lanes that do exist, start and stop at random, usually with terrible interfaces between road and path, often making them unusable. Saying you can't do the exact same as you've done all over D15, at Coolmine is ridiculous.

Fiddle Castro

beauf wrote: »

The is none on the Castelknock road, none on Carpenterstown Road, none on Clonsilla road. None on Porterstown road.

Since the cycle lanes that do exist, start and stop at random, usually with terrible interfaces between road and path, often making them unusable. Saying you can't do the exact same as you've done all over D15, at Coolmine is ridiculous.

The cycle lanes cannot be put in place until the crossing situation has been resolved.

Just because the right thing wasn't done in the past, doesn't mean it shouldn't be done now.

liamog

beauf wrote: »

These roads are already busy with traffic.

Can you back up your assertion with some traffic statistics for the unbuilt Ongar Barnhill Link Road and a bridge that has not yet been built as part of the Kellystown LAP.

beauf

liamog wrote: »

Can you back up your assertion with some traffic statistics for the unbuilt Ongar Barnhill Link Road and a bridge that has not yet been built as part of the Kellystown LAP.

No I'm just going by what people familar with that area are saying...

liamog wrote: »

Coming off the R149 towards Littlepace, the route is pretty bad, far too much local traffic having to share roads thanks for the layout of the area. It would be difficult to absorb any traffic from a Clonsilla crossing closure. The new Hansfield bridge would basically dump traffic onto the Ongar distributor and probably split 50/50 both ways being a bad option.....

liamog

beauf wrote: »

No I'm just going by what people familar with that area are saying...

Which is why I'm suggesting via the Kellystown LAP consult and the Dart+ consult that we need more than just the Porterstown Bridge between Castleknock and the new Barnhill Rd, it looks like you've finally seen how concentrating all the traffic from the developments south of the railway that need to get to other places in D15 is a bad idea.

liamog

beauf wrote: »

I've been saying that all along. I don't see how a bridge 500m from an existing bridge doesn't do this.

So you are now pro bridge at Coolmine?

beauf

liamog wrote: »

So you are now pro bridge at Coolmine?

No because I think it's doing the thing you just said is a bad idea. Concentrating all the traffic in one spot.

liamog

beauf wrote: »

No because I think it's doing the thing you just said is a bad idea. Concentrating all the traffic in one spot.

So in order to not concentrate traffic coming out of the estates south of the canal you want to reduce the number of routes from 1 to 2? That's the definition of concentrating.
The replacement bridge which moves traffic 90m away from the existing Coolmine Rd at the top, and 180m at the bottom.

liamog

beauf wrote: »

Yes, force it to go a different route.

That's by definition concentrating it onto the Porterstown bridge, exactly the scenario you said you wanted to avoid. For someone living in Diswellstown Green who works in the Centre, you'd be adding an extra 1km to their route down a road which will see increased traffic due to lack of an alternative.
if you think it's already broken, actively making it worse is not a solution.

What would you do instead to avoid the scenario?

beauf

liamog wrote: »

That's by definition concentrating it onto the Porterstown bridge, exactly the scenario you said you wanted to avoid. For someone living in Diswellstown Green who works in the Centre, you'd be adding an extra 1km to their route down a road which will see increased traffic due to lack of an alternative.
if you think it's already broken, actively making it worse is not a solution.

What would you do instead to avoid the scenario?

It can't be avoided. Traffic is already bad.
Be interesting to see if Xmas is its usual horror, as it backs up from the Center.
People won't consider any other solution than build a bridge. They are unable to think laterally.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braess%27s_paradox

Incidentally Diswellstown Green to the Centre its a 40min walk or a 12min cycle.
If you use Google maps the preferred and quickest route to Drive is over Dr Troy Bridge. 7-16 mins.
No difference between peak and off peak driving times. Which sounds wrong, but that what it says. I'd say its more like 20~30 mins.
Bus is 19mins, also over Dr Troy Bridge.

liamog

I can think of a number of options, granted I'm copying my homework from the engineers report that lists them.
It can quite literally be avoided by building the very bridge you are arguing against, or a bridge at Coolmine Station, or a tunnel in either of the locations

beauf

It will be interesting to see how building a new road into an area reduces the traffic in that area.

https://www.wired.com/2014/06/wuwt-traffic-induced-demand/

Good luck with that.

Pete_Cavan

beauf wrote: »

People won't consider any other solution than build a bridge. They are unable to think laterally.

Can you think laterally and put forward another solution which allows for the increase in train frequency (vital for DART+) and doesn't increase traffic for people's consideration?

beauf

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Can you think laterally and put forward another solution which allows for the increase in train frequency (vital for DART+) and doesn't increase traffic for people's consideration?

Sure ban cars. No cars no traffic.

jam_mac_jam

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Can you think laterally and put forward another solution which allows for the increase in train frequency (vital for DART+) and doesn't increase traffic for people's consideration?

Update the signalling? Let the cars wait. They already have troy bridge, use that? Bridge on the road already there?

liamog

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Update the signalling? Let the cars wait. They already have troy bridge, use that? Bridge on the road already there?

A bridge on Coolmine Rd is one of the options, but it impinges on more property that the Riverwood option. There is also the issue of the protected canal bridge so you'd have to build the bridge over the bridge.

Pete_Cavan

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Update the signalling? Let the cars wait. They already have troy bridge, use that? Bridge on the road already there?

Signalling wont make a difference at the planned frequency of trains. If cars are waiting at the LC which remains open, they will be waiting for hours, may as well just close it. Using the DTB will still see traffic problems in the area, traffic using Coolmine crossing will have to use others roads to get there first and then they will add to congestion on the DTB. Bridge on the road already there creates even more issues, as already said. My point is that there are no easy solutions despite what some people say.

jam_mac_jam

liamog wrote: »

A bridge on Coolmine Rd is one of the options, but it impinges on more property that the Riverwood option. There is also the issue of the protected canal bridge so you'd have to build the bridge over the bridge.

Well not to the person whose house will have to be knocked.

I am not sure how it would cause more property damage. I agree with you though that there are no easy options.

blanch152

beauf wrote: »

People earlier in one of these threads suggested they bypass DTB to get to Coolmine crossing. Who knows for sure. We don't really have any clear data on traffic flows.

That is why we rely on the experts to let us know the best solution, hence the report recommended the bridge.

blanch152

beauf wrote: »

Depends how you are looking on line. What are you using?Using Google it says Merrion Gates and the M50 never go red ever. I suspect that is because its only tracking average speed and if cars are actually stopped If you look at real-time, when it is actually stopped then perhaps the only time it actually shows up. While its quieter, there is something like 75% of traffic back on the roads and there are still queues in the usual places. I have no idea why the only place you see queues in Coolmine. I see them in other areas just walking past them.

We had this on the discussion about the phoenix park traffic. People said there was no traffic at the weekends. Then someone posted a video of 4km queue of cars on a Sat or such.



For sure. But I just think its amusing to discard an option because it has no cycle lanes, when there are currently no cycle lanes, and when its built there will be no cycle lanes directly to it anyway.

Even more ironic is the people making a big deal about it, don't cycle, have no intentions of cycling. People don't cycle mainly because they don't want to and are not forced to. The car is an easier option. That just human nature. lack of cycle lanes and infrastructure is definitely an issue. Most of the people using it as an excuse have never even tried to cycle, on the roads they are complaining about.



I would say that opening Dr Troy bridge directly into a residential area was only going to have one result. Opening a new massive housing development (Kellystown) into the same junction will also only the same result. Opening the proposed bridge into the exact same residential area will also have the same result.



The reason infrastructure project fail, is because they don't learn from their mistakes, and just keep repeating them. Look at the children s hospital. They have built it in a location with zero room to expand. No future planning what so ever. As soon as they built the M50 they had to widen it. They are building Kellystown with no bridge over the river. They are going to use the existing one which everyone say is already too congested. They are developing more housing at the back of Ongar, Clonee, but its all using the existing country back roads. There are pushing for another 400+ apartments on Carpenterstown road. That all going to feed into this concentrated bottleneck.

The new bridge will have cycle lanes.

The new bridge option provides for a pedestrian and cycle bridge only at Coolmine Station.

For cyclists, there is no question. The new bridge provides two safer options for crossing the railway than the existing one.

BonnieSituation

blanch152 wrote: »

That is why we rely on the experts to let us know the best solution, hence the report recommended the bridge.

People are tired of experts Blanch.

D15er

blanch152 wrote: »

That is why we rely on the experts to let us know the best solution, hence the report recommended the bridge.

Let's be honest here.

The experts employed by Iarnród Éireann came up with the best solution for Iarnród Éireann. Any option that did not deliver everything IE wanted was immediately disregarded.

So it's a stretch to call any of it the best option

liamog

D15er wrote: »

Let's be honest here.

The experts employed by Iarnród Éireann came up with the best solution for Iarnród Éireann. Any option that did not deliver everything IE wanted was immediately disregarded.

So it's a stretch to call any of it the best option

I don't think that's honest at all, the best option for Irish Rail would be close the crossing with no provision for any changes, it would of cost them the least amount of money. Instead the engineers came up with a number of options and assessed them based on criteria which is all in the report, with further detail in the appendix's.

D15er

liamog wrote: »

I don't think that's honest at all, the best option for Irish Rail would be close the crossing with no provision for any changes, it would of cost them the least amount of money. Instead the engineers came up with a number of options and assessed them based on criteria which is all in the report, with further detail in the appendix's.

No, because that idea wouldn't be acceptable to anyone and would never have any hope of progressing, so it would be a terrible idea for IE.

Companies never commission "independent" reports unless they're pretty sure they're going to like the outcome. That's the real world.

liamog

D15er wrote: »

No, because that idea wouldn't be acceptable to anyone and would never have any hope of progressing, so it would be a terrible idea for IE.

Companies never commission "independent" reports unless they're pretty sure they're going to like the outcome. That's the real world.

Hence why it was rejected ... it's in the report.

Fiddle Castro

D15er wrote: »

No, because that idea wouldn't be acceptable to anyone and would never have any hope of progressing, so it would be a terrible idea for IE.

Companies never commission "independent" reports unless they're pretty sure they're going to like the outcome. That's the real world.

So what would be your preferred option / solution?

liamog

D15er wrote: »

Companies never commission "independent" reports unless they're pretty sure they're going to like the outcome. That's the real world.

Having studied the report, which criteria do you think were ignored, or should be adding whilst the engineers investigate an option to replace the Coolmine level crossing?