DART coming to Maynooth line in 2024

liamog

Brock Turnpike wrote: »

You're now left with the scenario you described above whereby the logical locations for a bridge to replace a level crossing has already been developed as housing estates.

The reason there are two cul de sacs with green space available near to Coolmine station where a bridge can be built, is due to the council holding back house building for a future route. Do people really think it's an accident that there just happens to be space to extend the road over the railway in a straight line from where the fire station is?

kdevitt

Brock Turnpike wrote: »

This post is a perfect example of the lack of planning that has (and continues to) gone into D15 in general. Planning permission continually being granted for developments with no future planning or sufficient infrastructure available to support the developments.

You're now left with the scenario you described above whereby the logical locations for a bridge to replace a level crossing has already been developed as housing estates.

Hard to see it changing anytime soon either. Just keep lumping houses out here, allow the occasional Lidl - bobs your uncle. The shared living complex that was granted PP (before being overturned - temporarily at least) at Bradys included 2 parking spots in their submission - to be shared amongst the 200 odd residents. They also indicated there would be no issue with parking in nearby roads and housing estates because of the under utilisation of the local trains, which will allow all residents to fully rely on public transport. Furthermore, no visitors will ever drive there either for the same reason. It's pure fantasy stuff which is getting through.

kdevitt

liamog wrote: »

The reason there are two cul de sacs with green space available near to Coolmine station where a bridge can be built, is due to the council holding back house building for a future route. Do people really think it's an accident that there just happens to be space to extend the road over the railway in a straight line from where the fire station is?

Apart from the fact that they're demolishing houses, it sounds like you've literally no idea of the layout of this area if you think house building has been held back on the land which is now going to be used.

beauf

liamog wrote: »

The reason there are two cul de sacs with green space available near to Coolmine station where a bridge can be built, is due to the council holding back house building for a future route. Do people really think it's an accident that there just happens to be space to extend the road over the railway in a straight line from where the fire station is?

You reckon that in that long stretch from Clonsilla to Blanchardstown the plan all along was to close all the crossings and replace with two giant bridges beside each other into a tiny estate.

blanch152

beauf wrote: »

You reckon that in that long stretch from Clonsilla to Blanchardstown the plan all along was to close all the crossings and replace with two giant bridges beside each other into a tiny estate.

What tiny estate is getting two huge bridges?

Riverwood is far from tiny, and as the poster points out, there was space reserved for this bridge from a long time back.

kdevitt

blanch152 wrote: »

What tiny estate is getting two huge bridges?

Riverwood is far from tiny, and as the poster points out, there was space reserved for this bridge from a long time back.

There was never space 'reserved' for a bridge, the land is quite clearly zoned as open space only.

blanch152

kdevitt wrote: »

There was never space 'reserved' for a bridge, the land is quite clearly zoned as open space only.

Zoned as open space so that it couldn't be developed and available for potential alternative use at a future date for a bridge. That is a common enough tactic for county councils.

The councillors did try to prevent it.

https://consult.fingal.ie/en/consultation/draft-fingal-development-plan-2017-%E2%80%93-2023-stage-2/chapter/appendix-6-map-based-local


https://consult.fingal.ie/en/consultation/draft-fingal-development-plan-2017-%E2%80%93-2023-stage-2/chapter/map-13-blanchardstown-south


126 Prohibit any road bridge at this location" was included in the current Fingal Development Plan, but the seeds were sown at an earlier stage. That amendment wouldn't have been needed if the bridge was not technically possible and if a bridge had not been envisaged at an earlier stage.

beauf

The suggestion being when they panned the estates. They knowingly built roads that would completely cut off when the came back to build the planned bridge. Makes perfect sense.

The logic behind this bridge is that traffic will fan out in both directions once it enters Riverwood allowing the traffic to "disperse"
If it goes right it immediately hits the tailback trying to get Dr Troy bridge/Porterstown Rd. So it can only go left. Which it will then hit the tail back from Castleknock College, or down in Laurel Lodge.
Dr Troy bridge is like a traffic magnet, so obviously so will this new bridge. Especially as it was constrained by the level crossing up to now. So you're increasing the traffic hitting all these bottlenecks.

That will only do one thing.

Polar101

I've only seen the bits about level crossings, but are there any plans for more park & ride spaces? It's great to get more capacity to the train line, but they'd also need to add more park & ride spaces ,in order to get people out of their cars and on to the trains.

liamog

beauf wrote: »

The suggestion being when they panned the estates. They knowingly built roads that would completely cut off when the came back to build the planned bridge. Makes perfect sense.

It's quite normal to build roads in this manner as it's relatively straightforward to rework roads, whereas it's complex to go down the CPO route to demolish peoples homes. You can see clearly on a map where the reservation is. If you draw the line where the bridge is planned, you can see that the area has been kept free of property development, it's not a coincidence that only North/South aligned gaps in development happen to be across the railway/canal from each other. The only building "in the way" appears to be one on Sheepmore Lane, that appears to have been built before at least 1995.

ongarboy

Polar101 wrote: »

I've only seen the bits about level crossings, but are there any plans for more park & ride spaces? It's great to get more capacity to the train line, but they'd also need to add more park & ride spaces ,in order to get people out of their cars and on to the trains.

Park and Ride car parks only really work in easily accessible uncongested areas with lots of available space such as the M3 Parkway car park and Dunboyne to a lesser extent. I can't see rail commuters driving to any of the stations further in where they will have to endure local car commuter and schools traffic gridlock during peak time rush hours before they even parked and hopped on a train. There's simply no available landbanks that I can picture apart from the undeveloped fields south of both Hansfield and Navan Road Parkway but I think those sites are earmarked for future housing too.

liamog

There's definitely no room around Hansfield. That all comes under the Barnhill Local Area Plan, which is a smaller extension of Hansfield https://consult.fingal.ie/en/consultation/barnhill-local-area-plan.
Navan Road Parkway would probably be a good site, but would need more expensive multi story car parks to be workable.

Talking of reserved roadways and Navan Road Parkway, does anyone know why they built the overpass with such a large gap to one side, I've always wondered what this was potentially intended for.

beauf

liamog wrote: »

It's quite normal to build roads in this manner as it's relatively straightforward to rework roads, whereas it's complex to go down the CPO route to demolish peoples homes. You can see clearly on a map where the reservation is. If you draw the line where the bridge is planned, you can see that the area has been kept free of property development, it's not a coincidence that only North/South aligned gaps in development happen to be across the railway/canal from each other. The only building "in the way" appears to be one on Sheepmore Lane, that appears to have been built before at least 1995.

They left the roads ready place for the future Dr Troy bridge. But not this one. Its just not credible.

liamog

beauf wrote: »

They left the roads ready place for the future Dr Troy bridge. But not this one. Its just not credible.

So to be clear this gap in development on either side of the canal, which is perfectly sized to replace the road that goes other the Coolmine crossing is a coincidence? Presumably caused by developers who just felt like they didn't want to make quite as much money from their sites, but only in these couple of spots?

beauf

Polar101 wrote: »

I've only seen the bits about level crossings, but are there any plans for more park & ride spaces? It's great to get more capacity to the train line, but they'd also need to add more park & ride spaces ,in order to get people out of their cars and on to the trains.

The current park was almost but never quite 100% full even before the lock down. A lot choose to park in Riverwood instead

They could build a park and ride and bridge into Kellystown. Its not even built yet. I thought a new bridge was part of that.

beauf

liamog wrote: »

So to be clear this gap in development on either side of the canal, which is perfectly sized to replace the road that goes other the Coolmine crossing is a coincidence? Presumably caused by developers who just felt like they didn't want to make quite as much money from their sites, but only in these couple of spots?

...

So just be clear. They left this space. But then filled all around it with houses and an estate. Leaving no space for traffic to exit the bridge, or enough room to have a reasonable gradient. This road is covered in ramps because of the traffic rat running through it. So the perfect place to double the volume of traffic passing through it.

beauf

I have no doubt they will force this through in time.

But the only reason they need this bridge, which I assume Dr Troy bridge should have replaced. Was that Dr Troy bridge hasn't been able to take the traffic volumes it attracts. Pretty predictable.

liamog

beauf wrote: »

So just be clear. They left this space. But then filled all around it with houses and an estate. Leaving no space for traffic to exit the bridge, or enough room to have a reasonable gradient. This road is covered in ramps because of the traffic rat running through it. So the perfect place to double the volume of traffic passing through it.

The volume of traffic here shouldn't change, it's essentially a same capacity replacement for the current Coolmine crossing, It's a like for like replacement but with a bridge instead of a level crossing. Which road are you referring to as the rat run, both ends of the proposed bridge are currently cul de sacs, so not sure why they'd be used in such a manner.

I'm not following your logic re the gradient's, did you see the indicative plan's from Irish Rail, it's not the first time they've investigated a crossing here, at one point they even looked at a railway underbridge / lifting canal bridge combo.

Here's the PDF, clearly showing there is room for either end, and the indicative route https://www.irishrail.ie/Admin/getmedia/ac1a6a02-3b1a-43f8-a427-d52ff04c7d26/Coolmine-Overbridge-Graphic-(A4).pdf

beauf

Building Dr Troy increased the traffic. Building the Porterstown link road increased traffic.

Third times a charm?

I like the way they "planned" it not to be straight.

liamog

What's that a 10 degree kink in the road, hardly earth shattering. I think turns were invented just after the fall of the Romans, so we'll probably manage.
I won't disagree with you that better roads result in increased traffic, but I think given the situation with regard to Coolmine, some kind of replacement is necessary to ensure permeability across the railway, and the route for this bridge seems to be about the only practical option.

What would you do instead, turn the railway into a Belfast style peace line?

beauf

Well if it was planned before before the estates were built they wouldn't have designed a kink in it.
They could have also left space for long exit direct to Carpenterstown road and have it all in place before the estates were built.

There is permeability across the railway. There is Dr Troy and Castleknock road bridge.

liamog

beauf wrote: »

Well if it was planned before before the estates were built they wouldn't have designed a kink in it.
They could have also left space for long exit direct to Carpenterstown road and have it all in place before the estates were built.

There is permeability across the railway. There is Dr Troy and Castleknock road bridge.

That's quite a long gap (around 5km) by road if you remove the Coolmine crossing. The "kink" is a 20m offset, by engineering standards it's basically meaningless, bridges do not have to cross at right angles.

You've not delved into what you would do instead, am I to understand you're preferred option is to cut off vehicular traffic across a 2.5km stretch of railway, that was previously connected at Coolmine?

beauf

Yeah. Don't need it. Walk cycle get the train.

The way to avoid traffic is not be traffic.

liamog

kdevitt wrote: »

Apart from the fact that they're demolishing houses, it sounds like you've literally no idea of the layout of this area if you think house building has been held back on the land which is now going to be used.

It's a single property, from the aerial maps on the OSI site, it looks to have been there before 1995. Which other houses need to be demolished for the proposed bridge?

liamog

beauf wrote: »

Yeah. Don't need it. Walk cycle get the train.

The way to avoid traffic is not be traffic.

The bridge isn't about relieving traffic, it's an alternative crossing to replace the current one at Coolmine. Are your objections to proving an alternative route really more grounded in a anti car position where you believe making residents lives more awkward is what will push them into giving up cars in a very car dependant area of Dublin?

beauf

If traffic isn't the issue, then people can simply use the access at Dr Troy bridge. Is 2.5k too far in a car or something?

beauf

liamog wrote: »

It's a single property, from the aerial maps on the OSI site, it looks to have been there before 1995. Which other houses need to be demolished for the proposed bridge?

Don't need to demolish anything if you build it up in clonsilla into kellystown.

liamog

beauf wrote: »

Don't need to demolish anything if you build it up in clonsilla into kellystown.

The question was in response to the poster who claimed "Apart from the fact that they're demolishing houses, it sounds like you've literally no idea of the layout of this area if you think house building has been held back on the land which is now going to be used."

To address the reduced permeability in Coolmine, your proposal is a bridge in Clonsllla?
A bridge from Clonsilla to Kellystown is also a good idea to increase permeability into Kellystown, far too much of D15 is islanded into estates.

beauf

Dr Troy bridge is the permeability option for closing Clonsilla crossing.
Coolmine is a lot closer. So if its ok for Clonsilla it must be ok for Coolmine.

Unless the issue isn't permeability but volume of traffic. But you said the issue isn't " relieving traffic".

liamog

beauf wrote: »

Dr Troy bridge is the permeability option for closing Clonsilla crossing.
Coolmine is a lot closer. So if its ok for Clonsilla it must be ok for Coolmine.

Unless the issue isn't permeability but volume of traffic. But you said the issue isn't " relieving traffic".

There's a huge distinction between permeability between housing areas on either side of the rail line (Coolmine) and an area that's currently fields (Clonsilla) as you suggested, I agree with the concept of another bridge over the line as the lands at Kellystown are developed.
In fact, it was raised in the local area plan for Kellystown

Prepare a feasibility study on the location of a road bridge, crossing the Royal Canal and the Dublin-Maynooth railway, connecting north to the Ongar road. This location shall be determined in advance of, or part of, the adoption of the Local Area Plan for lands at Kellystown.

https://consult.fingal.ie/en/consultation/kellystown-issues-paper-draft-local-area-plan/chapter/introduction

Out of interest, what would your thoughts be if a bridge at Coolmine was made public transport only?