Who are the bees knees when it comes to kitchens

v638sg7k1a92bx

The kitchen I'm replacing is approx 30 years old, solid wood, has
a lot of wear and tear, has been painted and fixed a few times so it's truly end of life. Will be sorry to see it go.

I've been shopping around a few places and it seems that everywhere is effectively flat pack wholesale kitchens in mdf or wrapped in that pvc stuff but the prices are just astronomical and it's not even solid wood!
Did I miss something during the last 30 years where kitchen prices have inflated a few thousand % so what isn't solid wood.

I've gone to some of the main places around without mentioning names but a few on the long mile road and then a couple of "bespoke" places.

Are solid wood kitchens a thing of the past now or are is that a reflection of the prices these days?

Graham

You can find timber painted kitchens from most kitchen companies, I can't imagine why you're struggling to find one.

FYI, solid timber isn't always the best choice. Much depends on the style you're looking for.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Graham wrote: »

You can find timber painted kitchens from most kitchen companies, I can't imagine why you're struggling to find one.

FYI, solid timber isn't always the best choice. Much depends on the style you're looking for.

We're looking to go with a more modern/contemporary design as we had the traditional for the last 30 years. I've seen the wrapped mdf stuff in other kitchens and it looks like it peels off quite a lot.

I dunno maybe I need to readjust my expectations but the stuff I'm seeing appears to be flat packed with different branding.

Graham

MDF doesn't necessarily mean foil wrapped.

If you're looking for a slab/handleless gloss/matt/stained, the best choices IMO are MDF painted or painted and lacquered or veneered & stained. Traditional timber expands/contracts too much for many modern finishes.

Joey321

Am in the same position, looking around for new kitchen, was to a place on swords road, no names mentioned, wife loved a certain kitchen gave measurements and was told they will do up drawings and give a price, 3weeks later no word from them rang up the guy i was dealing with and says they are very busy and he has to give priority to people coming into the show rooms, ahhhhhhh thats what i did and gave all the information they required, anyway after a few more calls go drawings and a partial price, told he would get back with price of worktop etc, now another 4 weeks later still no word on price of work top, how do these places stay in business. Got another local guy in to measure up took all the details, everything was straight forward told he will get back with in a week, 4 weeks later still no call. have about 15k to spend on kitchen which would cover what we want and cant seem to get any body to do it. what does it take for someone to install a kitchen these days, Anyway have put the kitchen on hold for a while, dont want to hand money over to some firm and then have another lockdown with the chance of them going out of business and never seen my money again. Plan to do it myself in the future with the exception of the work top. Support local business, these guys do not need support if they are turning down work like this.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Graham wrote: »

MDF doesn't necessarily mean foil wrapped.

If you're looking for a slab/handleless gloss/matt/stained, the best choices IMO are MDF painted or painted and lacquered or veneered & stained. Traditional timber expands/contracts too much for many modern finishes.

What about the carcass, they seemed to be made out of melamine?

But what is the quality of these kitchens, are they of good quality in general? I'm a bit old fashioned in the sense that I like the feel of timber, I've been a bit skeptical of melamine, mdf, pvc wrap etc?

Also, looks like Panellling Centre seems to supply most of the kitchens to the different providers around Dublin???

Joey321

@Tickers, best of luck with The panelling centre

Joey321

Nihgtmare to deal with

PMBC

I agree with you about the standard of current stuff.
Would you consider replacing the counter top, keeping the carcass, replace the sink/s and add new doors?

Graham

Almost all carcasses are 18mm MFC these days even at the higher end of the market. Cheaper flatpack cabinets may have a 3mm hardboard back and the worst have a metal bar in place of a top.

If budget allows you could look for someone that manufactures ply/timber cabinets but be prepared to pay a very significant premium compared to an equivalent MFC.

Panelling centre don't supply (m)any of the kitchen companies. I reckon their typical customer base is man-in-a-van/construction trade with some domestic.

Cakerbaker

I’m not sure if I can name names but we will shortly be getting a kitchen installed by a company with a showroom in Monkstown. They were recommended by friends.

They’ve been great to deal with and have been able to tailor a few bits to suit our needs which wasn’t possible with some of the other companies who do seem to rely more on “flat packs” for the structure of the kitchen.

I’ll report back in a few weeks when it’s in.

daheff

most kitchens are made from chipboard melamine carcasses. Even a lot of upscale (higher budget) kitchens are. Its things like doors, door knobs, drawer fronts, sinks,taps, countertops where most of the money gets spent for higher end...but behind it all they are usually the same as the lower spec kitchens.

Absolutely nothing wrong with these chipboard carcasses. Better to keep your budget for the bits on show than the bits behind it.

Mickiemcfist

I'd recommend Woodworkers in Terenure, speak to Ken there, really knows his stuff. They can source most things if they don't readily supply it.
We got our hardwood counters there.

(also, don't go by their website, it's shocking)

v638sg7k1a92bx

Mickiemcfist wrote: »

I'd recommend Woodworkers in Terenure, speak to Ken there, really knows his stuff. They can source most things if they don't readily supply it.
We got our hardwood counters there.

(also, don't go by their website, it's shocking)

Woodworkers don't fit, supply only afaik?

Mickiemcfist

Adaline Swift Battalion wrote: »

Woodworkers don't fit, supply only afaik?

Yea that's why I mentioned Ken, he knows all the carpenters they supply so he'd recommend a fitter.

awec

When we were kitchen shopping a few years ago for our new build, there was a few options that were not the flat-pack variety. I think they said they were made on-site to fit rather than the jigsaw-like approach that is standard.

But the price was astronomical. So expensive the developer wouldn't allow them to go in.

They looked really nice in fairness, and definitely looked like an upgrade on the standard stuff, but you paid for it big time.

Lumen

Any kind of chipboard is utter sh!te, in my opinion, for a kitchen. I wouldn't even use it in a bedroom.

Painted MR MDF is what you want. MR = moisture resistant. It is both more dimensionally stable and has greater pull-out strength for fixings, and can be accurately machined to various profiles.

Peter Millard has loads of Youtube videos on it. I think he uses Medite, but PanelDespot (for instance) claim to supply MR MDF from various sources.

It only costs about a tenner per square meter, so I've no idea why all kitchen companies don't use it.

Graham

awec wrote: »

When we were kitchen shopping a few years ago for our new build, there was a few options that were not the flat-pack variety. I think they said they were made on-site to fit rather than the jigsaw-like approach that is standard.

But the price was astronomical. So expensive the developer wouldn't allow them to go in.

Any decent kitchen company (about half of them) should be able to offer off-standards where necessary. You'd probably only need 1 or 2 off-standards for most kitchens so it shouldn't have a massive effect on the overall price. Where you might get stuck is off-standard doors as some of the manufacturers only offer stock-sizes.

awec

Graham wrote: »

Any decent kitchen company (about half of them) should be able to offer off-standards where necessary. You'd probably only need 1 or 2 off-standards for most kitchens so it shouldn't have a massive effect on the overall price. Where you might get stuck is off-standard doors as some of the manufacturers only offer stock-sizes.

I found what I was looking for, it's the in-frame kitchens.

The frame is solid because it's visible even from the front. The doors have to be made to fit perfectly cause they go into the frame rather than cover it.

Graham

awec wrote: »

I found what I was looking for, it's the in-frame kitchens.

The frame is solid because it's visible even from the front. The doors have to be made to fit perfectly cause they go into the frame rather than cover it.

Most in-frame kitchens still stick to standard cabinet sizes other than where the shape of the kitchen dictates otherwise.

There's a few less door manufacturers in the in-frame market but they all offer a catalog of standard sizes + off-standards.

awec

Graham wrote: »

Most in-frame kitchens still stick to standard cabinet sizes other than where the shape of the kitchen dictates otherwise.

There's a few less door manufacturers in the in-frame market but they all offer a catalog of standard sizes + off-standards.

Yea I misremembered the reason why it was more expensive.

Looked lovely but we weren't allowed it.

crashplan

Try Kane Kitchens in Baldoyle. They are currently fitting a kitchen for me. Great work with lots of choices in their showroom.

chooseusername

Beesknees and Queues -not

SVI40

I had my kitchen replaced back in February. Got it from Kube in Balbriggan. I found them to be extremely professional, helpful, and the designer also came up with some great ideas to maximise space.

Fitters were excellent too.

I'd recommend a visit to them.

dazed+confused

Am shopping around for a kitchen too at the moment and each of the 6 suppliers we have spoken to so far are still dealing with the glut of enquiries they received during lockdown.

We have, after 4 weeks received prices and drawings from 4 of the 6, with the other two expected this week.

It's nothing personal, they're just out-the-door busy with enquiries at the moment. I have noticed however that phoning up or arriving in person gets a more prompt response than a Facebook or website enquiry. I know people on Boards tend to prefer an online interaction, but there are also lots of people that send out dozens of enquiries with zero intention of ever buying anything too.

MAJJ

Gallaghers in Lucan and Clondalkin, they have factory on side. Excellent service and finish.

v638sg7k1a92bx

SVI40 wrote: »

I had my kitchen replaced back in February. Got it from Kube in Balbriggan. I found them to be extremely professional, helpful, and the designer also came up with some great ideas to maximise space.

Fitters were excellent too.

I'd recommend a visit to them.

What are their kitchens made out of and did you get your appliances from them?

Graham

MFC. Priced at the very top of the mid-range suppliers.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Graham wrote: »

MFC. Priced at the very top of the mid-range suppliers.

Do you have any suggestions for the mid range suppliers, difficult to sort the wheat from the chaff when it comes to suppliers?

Do you have a preference for MFC over MDF?

Graham

I don't see a huge benefit to MDF over MFC to be honest, certainly not enough to warrant paying the significant premium for bespoke MDF cabinets.

There may not be a huge difference in terms of cost of boards to make up the cabinets but finding a kitchen company able/willing to do it would more than likely require open-wallet surgery.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Graham wrote: »

I don't see a huge benefit to MDF over MFC to be honest, certainly not enough to warrant paying the significant premium for bespoke MDF cabinets.

There may not be a huge difference in terms of cost of boards to make up the cabinets but finding a kitchen company able/willing to do it would more than likely require open-wallet surgery.

Thanks and in terms of suppliers, how can you tell the difference between mid range and higher end without going around all the houses?

Lumen

Graham wrote: »

I don't see a huge benefit to MDF over MFC to be honest, certainly not enough to warrant paying the significant premium for bespoke MDF cabinets.

There may not be a huge difference in terms of cost of boards to make up the cabinets but finding a kitchen company able/willing to do it would more than likely require open-wallet surgery.

I was at a kitchen company this morning that use MR MDF as standard. Am waiting on a quote, but I expect the cabinets alone to come to maybe 17k, that's for maybe 25 cabinets between an island, a wall and a corner area.

edit: the stuff they use is this:

https://noyeks.ie/fibranor-hidrofugo-moisture-resistant-3-layer-mdf.html

awec

I would have thought MR MDF was overkill for most kitchen cupboards?

v638sg7k1a92bx

Lumen wrote: »

I was at a kitchen company this morning that use MR MDF as standard. Am waiting on a quote, but I expect the cabinets alone to come to maybe 17k, that's for maybe 25 cabinets between an island, a wall and a corner area.

Could you PM the name of the company pls?

Lumen

awec wrote: »

I would have thought MR MDF was overkill for most kitchen cupboards?

MR MDF is even used in bespoke painted wardrobes. It has better mechanical properties e.g. pull out resistance than standard MDF. It's not an exotic product, it's moisture resistant not waterproof.

awec

Lumen wrote: »

MR MDF is even used in bespoke painted wardrobes. It has better mechanical properties e.g. pull out resistance than standard MDF. It's not an exotic product, it's moisture resistant not waterproof.

Yea that's true.

It's heavier than MDF, right? MR MDF likely to have a nice hefty / solid feel to it.

looksee

My experience has been that the painted (MDF?) kitchens are absolutely fine, don't get the wrapped ones - if you look inside the door where the handles come through you can often see the tiny cracks already showing in the wrap where the hole has been drilled.

My son got a more expensive kitchen though it was basically the same construction and painted MDF. However the difference is very subtle, but there. Mine is fine and quite acceptable, theirs is just subtly better looking with (some) better quality internal fittings. They also have a huge marble top island and counters. Also a choice of any colour, I had a choice of about 5 or 6. Mine is the standard counter top, which in fact is what I wanted. 'Been there' with timber, and don't see the advantage of marble. Whether it is different enough to be worth the difference is a matter of opinion.

I paid about 4k for it (no white goods) including a rubbish sink that was recommended/expensive made of some sort of reconstituted stone. The damn thing needs special cleaning products and never looks clean. OK if you have a decorative show kitchen but useless if you do irresponsible things like cleaning oven shelves or spilling tea in it.

SVI40

Adaline Swift Battalion wrote: »

What are their kitchens made out of and did you get your appliances from them?

It's a high gloss finish, so I'm assuming MDF.

Didn't replace any appliances, as they are all relatively new.

Lumen

awec wrote: »

Yea that's true.

It's heavier than MDF, right? MR MDF likely to have a nice hefty / solid feel to it.

Only about 10% more dense, depending on thickness.

I think a bigger cost driver is whether you get in-frame or overlay doors. The in-frame ones are more expensive cos the tolerances are much tighter.

Part of the consideration here is finish. I'm looking for a painted finish which can be repainted in future. If you're looking for a shiny Italian-style kitchen then the longevity is probably more down to the surface hardness than anything. I have friends with one of those and they almost immediately dinged it and the chip is noticeable and doesn't look easy to repair.

v638sg7k1a92bx

looksee wrote: »

My experience has been that the painted (MDF?) kitchens are absolutely fine, don't get the wrapped ones - if you look inside the door where the handles come through you can often see the tiny cracks already showing in the wrap where the hole has been drilled.

My son got a more expensive kitchen though it was basically the same construction and painted MDF. However the difference is very subtle, but there. Mine is fine and quite acceptable, theirs is just subtly better looking with (some) better quality internal fittings. They also have a huge marble top island and counters. Also a choice of any colour, I had a choice of about 5 or 6. Mine is the standard counter top, which in fact is what I wanted. 'Been there' with timber, and don't see the advantage of marble. Whether it is different enough to be worth the difference is a matter of opinion.

I paid about 4k for it (no white goods) including a rubbish sink that was recommended/expensive made of some sort of reconstituted stone. The damn thing needs special cleaning products and never looks clean. OK if you have a decorative show kitchen but useless if you do irresponsible things like cleaning oven shelves or spilling tea in it.

Would you mind PM me the name of the supplier you used?

enricoh

SVI40 wrote: »

I had my kitchen replaced back in February. Got it from Kube in Balbriggan. I found them to be extremely professional, helpful, and the designer also came up with some great ideas to maximise space.

Fitters were excellent too.

I'd recommend a visit to them.

Bring loads of money if you go, you'll need it!

SVI40

enricoh wrote: »

Bring loads of money if you go, you'll need it!

I don't mind paying for quality. I much prefer to pay extra and be happy, then save some money, and not be happy with the end result.

v638sg7k1a92bx

enricoh wrote: »

Bring loads of money if you go, you'll need it!

Are they really that much more expensive than other suppliers?

v638sg7k1a92bx

Am I right in saying that contemporary kitchens will be wrapped or laminate and traditional tend to be wood?

Graham

Adaline Swift Battalion wrote: »

Am I right in saying that contemporary kitchens will be wrapped or laminate and traditional tend to be wood?

Higher end contemporary might be painted/lacquered or veneered and painted/stained.

Graham

Lumen wrote: »

I was at a kitchen company this morning that use MR MDF as standard. Am waiting on a quote, but I expect the cabinets alone to come to maybe 17k, that's for maybe 25 cabinets between an island, a wall and a corner area.

When you say cabinets only are you literally talking just carcasses, i.e. excluding doors/panels/attachments/worktops/appliances?

alanceltic

Got a kitchen put in last year and visited quite a number of suppliers. You will find that there is very little in the price between supply only versus supply and fit, the reason being the difference in vat. If it is supply and fit the vat charged is only 13.5% and this negates most of the savings if you are thinking of doing a self install.

I found the quality of carcass and doors to be broadly similar between most of the companies but I personally would consider solid timber as more premium offering, ultimately it depends on the finish you are looking for. I would put more focus on the quality of the hinges, brackets and drawer runners, you will see a big difference in quality in this area.

My advice is to put all your efforts in finding out what layout you want and find a designer who will put the effort into understanding how this translates in a practical way, take ownership of what you want, nobody knows better than yourself what you want so don't buy the bluster on what a designer thinks you need. Finally, insist on meeting the fitter in advance (preferably on the final measure).

I am more fussy than I would like to be but I can't help but recommend Cash and Carry in liffey Valley. They were great to deal with and 18 months later I am very with all aspects of the kitchen, particularly the design.

jack of all

In a past life I worked for a short time for one of the "better" kitchen suppliers mentioned here. All kitchen kitchen carcasses were of 15mm MFC (their supplier claimed their 15mm MFC was denser than standard 18mm MFC so didn't need the extra thickness- I don't know). Doors, gables and fillers were offered in MFC with edges banded, laminate, a limited range of real wood veneers, frame and panel plus lacquered finishes up to high gloss. The kitchens were good quality, with fully assembled (dowelled) carcasses- no flat pack. The base kitchen prices were reasonable (in my estimation) but once fittings, special equipment/ accessories (magic corner, carousel, pantry pull-outs etc), matching gables, fillers etc were included the price would rocket- this is where money was made. Worktops were another area where money could quickly disappear- solid wood (nice but requires ongoing care and maintenance), Silestone, solid surface and some other exotic materials all pushed up costs. In my (limited) experience the quality of the kitchen design could vary enormously depending on which designer/ salesperson you deal with. It's a cut throat business and the pressure is on to meet sales targets; some people are naturally good at sales, others have a flair for design.

Lumen

Graham wrote: »

When you say cabinets only are you literally talking just carcasses, i.e. excluding doors/panels/attachments/worktops/appliances?

I understood it to mean the units excluding appliances, worktops, taps and sinks, but including all painted surfaces, drawers and handles.

How maybe 3ks worth of MDF, runners and paint becomes 15-20ks worth of cabinets is a mystery to me. As I understand it from a friend who works for one of these companies the machining is all automated (essentially CNC) but I guess those machines are not cheap.

Graham

Lumen wrote: »

I understood it to mean the units excluding appliances, worktops, taps and sinks, but including all painted surfaces, drawers and handles.

How maybe 3ks worth of MDF, runners and paint becomes 15-20ks worth of cabinets is a mystery to me. As I understand it from a friend who works for one of these companies the machining is all automated (essentially CNC) but I guess those machines are not cheap.

You're in 6 figure territory for a reasonable CNC. If you're painting in house you'll also want a decent spray room and somewhere to dry.

Once you move away from MFC cabinets, you're in bespoke land. It's an expensive place to be.

listermint

Pulled my kitchen out of a house, it was installed circa 2008. 18mm Veneered MDF with InFrame Oak Trim. Doors have oak rails and MDF boards. It was painted previously and ive painted it myself prior to install (sprayed) It still looks new and the level of abuse it took with removal and transport and then storage to install shows the quality. Architect that sold it said it cost around 18k at the time.

For me denser or more waterproof MDF type materials are not worth it. There is no desernible difference in how that will wear over time nor paintability. Its an extra cost for no reasonable gain and a salesmans trick.

These are kitchen carcasses they wont be taking on water, wont be moved (i know mine was ) and once painted they will sit there for the life of them. Anyone buying should be primarily concerned with Finished look and fixtures like good quality runners and hinges. Getting hung up on the internals of the cabinet is a waste of time. Unless They are going to be seen or part of the design ala Plywood.