The wondrous adventures of Sinn Fein (part 2)

FrancieBrady

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I'd put it in the same ethical box as Leo's latest escapade. It may not violate the letter of any law, but it certainly violates the spirit of it. Whether legal or not, I'd certainly consider it unethical and hypocritical.

Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on ones perspective, Gardai and the courts don't get involved with violating the spirit of the law. By the book, SF and Leo are both going to, 'get away with it', but both will be reputationally damaged by it (I would hope anyway).

Due to the nature of Irish politics, the reputational damage is lessened the closer you get to the core support of each, due to the almost blind party fanaticism many seem to suffer from across all parties here.

From my republican stand point (and I get your point Fionn) they used partition to their advantage here. I have no issue whatsoever with that. My entire life I have endeavored not to allow partition affect me negatively. It is a battle that is always in the red though.

If the money benefits Irish people as it was intended to do, and a way had to be found to do that, then as long as it was legal and transparent I have little objection to it.

I'm a cynic and I would not doubt for a second that our legislation was brought in as a way to thwart the growth of all island parties. That way lies the end of the power swap in one part of that island.

I object strongly that it is anyway similar to sharing confidential documents to a vested interest not entitled to them.

I get your point that this will be viewed negatively by some.

markodaly

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

This friends of SF organisation in the US. Any inkling of the sort of people who are donating thousands to the ‘cause’ over there?

Are they the guys who organise on a regular basis the type of $500 per seat, dinner parties?

joeguevara

markodaly wrote: »

Are they the guys who organise on a regular basis the type of $500 per seat, dinner parties?

Yes. Friends of SInn Fein US is an umbrella organisation of 4 or 5 other organisations. Gala dinner annually in the sheraton Manhattan for 500 bucks a plate is the pinacle. Most of the money stays in the US and is used to lobby politicians on UI issue. Coloquially called the Galway tent in the US.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

SIPO have no issue with it.

This is not quite accurate. SIPO wrote to SF to clarify the matter. This is how we get the 26+6 remark from SF, cementing the fact that they are indeed a partitionist party.

“Given the differences in statutory requirements, this may have the practical effect of sometimes benefitting or disadvantaging a party,” the note said.

Ms McDonald told SIPO: “The donation that you refer to was not offered to, or accepted by, the Sinn Féin party in the 26-county jurisdiction."

The donation from Mr Hampton was received by “the Sinn Féin party, registered in the six counties, with the British Electoral Commission”.

However, she said Sinn Féin in the "26 counties" would continue to adhere to the regulations in the 1997 Electoral Act.

markodaly

joeguevara wrote: »

Yes. Friends of SInn Fein US is an umbrella organisation of 4 or 5 other organisations. Gala dinner annually in the sheraton Manhattan for 500 bucks a plate is the pinacle. Most of the money stays in the US and is used to lobby politicians on UI issue. Coloquially called the Galway tent in the US.

So much for the new politics against the old boys then.
SF hanging out with the oldest boys of the lot in the US! :pac:

markodaly

markodaly wrote: »

Are they the guys who organise on a regular basis the type of $500 per seat, dinner parties?

Lads....yous are musguided and looking at things through a 1980s outlook

Shinners are fund raising efforts through middle east,oz,nz,germany and canada as overseas contributions....its where their whole demographic emigrated to over last recession (and what delayed their rise) and have made lives and success of it over there


I remember travlling 14 hours on a overnight bus,to attend a dissident function years ago,they is literally a republican back-packer/ couchsurfing subculture that is almost unknown of outside its participants....its what/why many of its policies have a v.modern take/way of doing things

facehugger99

FrancieBrady wrote: »

From my republican stand point (and I get your point Fionn) they used partition to their advantage here. I have no issue whatsoever with that. My entire life I have endeavored not to allow partition affect me negatively. It is a battle that is always in the red though.

If the money benefits Irish people as it was intended to do, and a way had to be found to do that, then as long as it was legal and transparent I have little objection to it.

I'm a cynic and I would not doubt for a second that our legislation was brought in as a way to thwart the growth of all island parties. That way lies the end of the power swap in one part of that island.

I object strongly that it is anyway similar to sharing confidential documents to a vested interest not entitled to them.

I get your point that this will be viewed negatively by some.

Gosh, isn't that surprising.

Some people form their political opinions based on their morality while others allow their political opinions to define their morality.

Terrorism, murder, torture, robbery, kidnapping, racketeering and child abuse - these can simply be hand-waved away and excused if you're a true-believer and morally-bankrupt.

markodaly

Deleted User wrote: »

I remember travlling 14 hours on a overnight bus,to attend a dissident function years ago,they is literally a republican back-packer/ couchsurfing subculture that is almost unknown of outside its participants....its what/why many of its policies have a v.modern take/way of doing things

What exactly is a 'dissident' function and what are you doing at one?

However, it is well known that the SF/IRA types do get around to offer their 'services' and 'advice'.

Wonder what the Colombia 3 are at lately?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colombia_Three

joeguevara

markodaly wrote: »

So much for the new politics against the old boys then.
SF hanging out with the oldest boys of the lot in the US! :pac:

For a look at the menu, here is a good start: https://www.thejournal.ie/sinn-fein-new-york-fundraiser-2428169-Nov2015/


Looks savage. 600 people usually in attendance.

markodaly

markodaly wrote: »

What exactly is a 'dissiddent' function and what are you doing at one?

It was a night for the now defunt RNU,its not illegal to hold such an event,nor is it illegal to be a dissident republican,i went to it,for few beers and meet up with mates,coming in from farmwork.....hardly any harm in it

However, it is well know that the SF/IRA types do get around to offer their 'services' and 'advice'.

Wonder what the Colombia 3 are at lately?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colombia_Three

There is no way,that you will grasp the size of the problem facing the state,if you reach around for likes/being outraged....but any republican going abroad can be pretty much assured of a place to crash,some job,and a start/support in their new life.....its why virtually all have made a success of their lifes abroad.......(used be a similar type thing with GAA,but this has kind if died off abit)

FrancieBrady

facehugger99 wrote: »

Gosh, isn't that surprising.

Some people form their political opinions based on their morality while others allow their political opinions to define their morality.

Yes, we seen a fine example of that as 3 parties stood up in the Dáil to vote this week.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

This is not quite accurate. SIPO wrote to SF to clarify the matter. This is how we get the 26+6 remark from SF, cementing the fact that they are indeed a partitionist party.

Why didn't you quote the whole section from the report? Trying to gild a lily Mark or maybe, to give you the benefit of the doubt, you are again, under-informed.

SIPO wrote:

There is nothing illegal about a party that is, for organisational purposes, a single entity having statutory obligations in more than one jurisdiction. Given the differences in statutory requirements, this may have the practical effect of sometimes benefiting or disadvantaging a party. It is recommended that the issue be explored further by an electoral commission, once established.

Contained in the bolded bit is the answer to my earlier question about the Gardai and the Garda Commissioner.

https://www.sipo.ie/reports-and-publications/annual-reports/2019-SIPOC-AR-English.pdf

markodaly

Deleted User wrote: »

It was a night for the now defunt RNU,its not illegal to hold such an event,nor is it illegal to be a dissident republican,i went to it,for few beers and meet up with mates,coming in from farmwork.....hardly any harm in it

Well at least you are honest about it but, depending on the organisation, yet it can be illegal to be a dissident Republican.

Seeing as you see yourself in that group, are you against the GFA?

There is no way,that you will grasp the size of the problem facing the state,if you reach around for likes/being outraged....but any republican going abroad can be pretty much assured of a place to crash,some job,and a start/support in their new life.....its why virtually all have made a success of their lifes abroad.......(used be a similar type thing with GAA,but this has kind if died off abit)

Like Aaron Brady?

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

https://www.sipo.ie/reports-and-publications/annual-reports/2019-SIPOC-AR-English.pdf

...Once none of the proceeds is spent in the Republic.
We need some oversight and transparency on that.

Are SF going to open their books and let us be known that everything is above board?

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

...Once none of the proceeds is spent in the Republic.
We need some oversight and transparency on that.

Are SF going to open their books and let us be known that everything is above board?

Again, if laws are being broken it is not for me or you to decide. There is legislation there governing transparency and accountability. If somebody is turning a blind eye or excusing those rules being broken, or claiming that they broke them but that it was an honest mistake, then that is a serious offence and undermines everybody.

Have SF failed in any way here regarding the regulations and rules around reporting?

imme

Deleted User wrote: »

Lads....yous are musguided and looking at things through a 1980s outlook

Shinners are fund raising efforts through middle east,oz,nz,germany and canada as overseas contributions....its where their whole demographic emigrated to over last recession (and what delayed their rise) and have made lives and success of it over there


I remember travlling 14 hours on a overnight bus,to attend a dissident function years ago,they is literally a republican back-packer/ couchsurfing subculture that is almost unknown of outside its participants....its what/why many of its policies have a v.modern take/way of doing things

Middle East you say, is it the Emirates more than Lebanon, Jordan, Iran, Israel.

In terms of your bus journey in Australia, are there many of these events.

In both of these examples are the, financial contributors; bank packer dissidents, exclusively Northern Irish.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why didn't you quote the whole section from the report? Trying to gild a lily Mark or maybe, to give you the benefit of the doubt, you are again, under-informed.



Contained in the bolded bit is the answer to my earlier question about the Gardai and the Garda Commissioner.

https://www.sipo.ie/reports-and-publications/annual-reports/2019-SIPOC-AR-English.pdf

Thnks for posting that. SIPO can do nothing about it. However, they are concerned about what happened, hence this piece which you quote:

"It is recommended that the issue be explored further by an electoral commission, once established."

Consequently, thanks to the quotation you provided, the following statement is incorrect.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

SIPO have no issue with it.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Thnks for posting that. SIPO can do nothing about it. However, they are concerned about what happened, hence this piece which you quote:

"It is recommended that the issue be explored further by an electoral commission, once established."

Consequently, thanks to the quotation you provided, the following statement is incorrect.

If SIPO have an issue with the legality of the specific donation, please point to it.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If SIPO have an issue with the legality of the specific donation, please point to it.

SIPO clearly have a problem with the donation, but recognise that they have no powers to address it, hence their request that the issue be addressed in the near future.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

SIPO clearly have a problem with the donation, but recognise that they have no powers to address it, hence their request that the issue be addressed in the near future.

Can you link to where they say they have a problem with this specific donation?

markodaly

markodaly wrote: »

Well at least you are honest about it but, depending on the organisation, yet it can be illegal to be a dissident Republican.

Seeing as you see yourself in that group, are you against the GFA?

Im am,and im not,the war played out to its conclusion,neither side were going to win.....the brits were never going to militarily crush the ira,nor were the ira going to be able to deliver a knock-out blow

But personally i.cant support a police force in the psni that covers up for the glennane gang,and is backed up by the british army....(and nor do i believe in support a police force headed by drew harris,given what glennane gang done in 26 counties either)


But ultimately the brits cant be trusted to uphold the gfa,and will never hold a border poll(its there or thereabouts demograhically now) and the whole thing will eventually decend into violence again

(not that i support the violence per se,noone wants this...just this is where its headed,unless some outside body is brought in,to oversee the upholding of the gfa)......

Sinn fein have also some serious qs to answer about the way they treat dissidents,but like refugees,noone in ireland speaks out for em

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Can you link to where they say they have a problem with this specific donation?

It was in your link, as I clearly explained. SIPO looked into the donation, found they didn't have the powers to investigate it fully, and asked for more powers so that they could investigate it in future.

It is like tax avoidance rather than tax evasion. Tax avoidance is legal but tax evasion is not. Effectively Sinn Fein are the political equivalent of Denis O'Brien moving to Portugal to pay less capital gains tax. All perfectly legal, but not ethical.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

It was in your link, as I clearly explained. SIPO looked into the donation, found they didn't have the powers to investigate it fully, and asked for more powers so that they could investigate it in future.

It is like tax avoidance rather than tax evasion. Tax avoidance is legal but tax evasion is not. Effectively Sinn Fein are the political equivalent of Denis O'Brien moving to Portugal to pay less capital gains tax. All perfectly legal, but not ethical.

SIPO said very clearly that they recommend that the advantages and disadvantages be looked at.

Being unable to accept this donation in the south may be found to be a 'dis-advantage' to a political party. Unless you want to pre-empt that decision then you have no point here.

SIPO have no issue currently with this specific donation, as I claimed.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

SIPO have no issue currently with this specific donation, as I claimed.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

SIPO have no issue with it.

Those two statements are not the same. I will leave it there.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Those two statements are not the same. I will leave it there.

Well, forgive. We were discussing a 'specific' donation when I made the comment 'SIPO have no issue with it'.

Do you accept that it may be found that the legislation currently could 'dis-advantage a party' or is it a one way street?

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well, forgive. We were discussing a 'specific' donation when I made the comment 'SIPO have no issue with it'.

Do you accept that it may be found that the legislation currently could 'dis-advantage a party' or is it a one way street?

Equally, I could say that it may be found that the IRA could be still functioning as a terrorist organisation and in control of Sinn Fein.

Anything is possible if you use conditional phrases such as may and could.

I have said enough on the issue to be clear what I mean.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Equally, I could say that it may be found that the IRA could be still functioning as a terrorist organisation and in control of Sinn Fein.

Anything is possible if you use conditional phrases such as may and could.

I have said enough on the issue to be clear what I mean.

:D:D Well I think it has been clearly demonstrated that you were indeed pre-empting the outcome of a review.

Happy to leave it there too.

Hqrry113

blanch152 wrote: »

Equally, I could say that it may be found that the IRA could be still functioning as a terrorist organisation and in control of Sinn Fein.

Anything is possible if you use conditional phrases such as may and could.

I have said enough on the issue to be clear what I mean.

How could you say that with sounding like an absolute fool?

Do you see any armed campaign going on?

mynamejeff

Deleted User wrote: »

Im am,and im not,the war played out to its conclusion,neither side were going to win.....the brits were never going to militarily crush the ira,nor were the ira going to be able to deliver a knock-out blow

But personally i.cant support a police force in the psni that covers up for the glennane gang,and is backed up by the british army....(and nor do i believe a police force headed by drew harris,given what glennane gang done in 26 counties either)


But ultimately the brits cant be trusted to uphold the gfa,and will never hold a border poll(its there or thereabouts demograhically now) and the whole thing will eventually decend into violence again

(not that i support the violence per se,noone wants this...just this is where its headed,unless some outside body is brought in,to oversee the upholding of the gfa)......

Sinn fein have also some serious qs to answer about the way they treat dissidents,but like refugees,noone in ireland speaks out for em

that's like saying no one listens to he political beliefs of those in the criminal wing in Dundrum mental hospital, no one votes for them either.

they are not relevant , a few fat bitter old men hiding in enclaves in Belfast Derry and north Dublin manipulating low iq youths into thinking they are heros of some imagined revolution. only coming out at night to paste stickers on lampposts and shoot randomly into crowds with converted airguns then run away,

joeguevara

Hqrry113 wrote: »

How could you say that with sounding like an absolute fool?

Do you see any armed campaign going on?

Are you saying that the Army Council does not exist?

Why did Mary Lou say that she is not a spokesperson for the IRA, if the IRA did not exist? How can you be a spokesperson for something that doesn't exist?