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The wondrous adventures of Sinn Fein (part 2)

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    #4352
    joeguevara
    Registered Users Posts: 8,074 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    Bowie wrote: »
    If it existed, would it make sense to you that they say to new SF members, 'psst, there's still an army council, but say nothing'?
    Would it not be more practical to move any remaining members, (of the organisation that signed up to political peace) into SF and like every other party, have a party HQ with members, elected and unelected debating and deciding what path the party might take? Which is what they did by all accounts. Why bother with an 'army council'?

    The council doesnt care about new members. They are irrelevant. Indeed the whole structure of PIRA was no one knew who was in it or not. Therefore no one would fold under questioning.


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    #4353
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,990 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    joeguevara wrote: »
    The height of the provisional IRA had 1200 volunteers in the 1970s. The army council controlled PR, manufacture, logistics, engineering etc. The Army as you emphasised is the easiest and most expendable part. If the army council, which is my contention, controls PR and SF, then it is subverting who people are voting for.

    On this thread Francie you wont believe anything without evidence, but on FGFF threads you are happy to post without any evidence of illegality. You cant have it both ways.

    What evidence of anything have you presented?

    The PSNI report which I think you are referencing says that 'Members of PIRA believe that SF is controlled by the Army council' that does not mean anything but PIRA members believe this.
    We don't know if they are disaffected members being meddlesome or anything about the source.

    My evidence is the reports of the Monitoring COmmission set up for the specific purpose of monitoring and what they say.

    There is no army anymore, therefore I couldn't care less what political opinions the Army Council have and I fail to see why they would be any different to what a SF members opinion.
    Stuff and nonsense with no shortage of faux outrage and paranoia tbh.


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    #4354
    joeguevara
    Registered Users Posts: 8,074 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    What evidence of anything have you presented?

    The PSNI report which I think you are referencing says that 'Members of PIRA believe that SF is controlled by the Army council' that does not mean anything but PIRA members believe this.
    We don't know if they are disaffected members being meddlesome or anything about the source.

    My evidence is the reports of the Monitoring COmmission set up for the specific purpose of monitoring and what they say.

    There is no army anymore, therefore I couldn't care less what political opinions the Army Council have and I fail to see why they would be any different to what a SF members opinion.
    Stuff and nonsense with no shortage of faux outrage and paranoia tbh.

    In 2015 the Independent Monitoring Authority categorically stated that the Army Council exists and controls Sinn Fein. A statement that they have never pulled back on.

    Furthermore, in 2017 Mairtin O Muilleoir, a former Sinn Féin member of the Northern Ireland Assembly and the country’s then-finance minister, caused a stir when it was revealed that he would not sign up to a renewable energy initiative until he had received approval from Ted Howell, awho is in the Council.

    SF cant say boo without being sanctioned by their unelected power.


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    #4355
    Solutionking
    Closed Accounts Posts: 678 ✭✭✭Solutionking


    joeguevara wrote: »
    The height of the provisional IRA had 1200 volunteers in the 1970s. The army council controlled PR, manufacture, logistics, engineering, rapes, child sexual abuse, random murders for no reasons etc. The Army as you emphasised is the easiest and most expendable part. If the army council, which is my contention, controls PR and SF, then it is subverting who people are voting for.

    On this thread Francie you wont believe anything without evidence, but on FGFF threads you are happy to post without any evidence of illegality. You cant have it both ways.

    Fixed that for you


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    #4356
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,990 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    joeguevara wrote: »
    In 2015 the Independent Monitoring Authority categorically stated that the Army Council exists and controls Sinn Fein. A statement that they have never pulled back on.

    Furthermore, in 2017 Mairtin O Muilleoir, a former Sinn Féin member of the Northern Ireland Assembly and the country’s then-finance minister, caused a stir when it was revealed that he would not sign up to a renewable energy initiative until he had received approval from Ted Howell, awho is in the Council.

    SF cant say boo without being sanctioned by their unelected power.

    Joe...please inform yourself properly. The IMA does not exist in this context. The IMC (the Independent Monitoring COmmission) Issued it's final report in 2011.

    What you have picked up on is an MI5 report in 2015 which had this to say:
    Based on current MI5 and police intelligence, the report’s authors claim: “PIRA members believe that the PAC [army council] oversees both PIRA and Sinn Féin with an overarching strategy.”

    But the investigation into claims of the continued existence of the IRA and other paramilitary groups found that the army council has a “wholly political focus” and poses no threat to the British state or the peace process.

    As long as that 'overarching strategy does not include violence that is fine by me.
    I did, after all, encourage them to get involved in wholly democratic means to achieve their aims. Aims I assume that are exactly the same as SF's.


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    #4357
    joeguevara
    Registered Users Posts: 8,074 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Joe...please inform yourself properly. The IMA does not exist in this context. The IMC (the Independent Monitoring COmmission) Issued it's final report in 2011.

    What you have picked up on is an MI5 report in 2015 which had this to say:



    As long as that 'overarching strategy does not include violence that is fine by me.
    I did, after all, encourage them to get involved in wholly democratic means to achieve their aims. Aims I assume that are exactly the same as SF's.

    Apologies if i got it incorrect. Let ,me have a look and Ill amend if i got something wrong.


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    #4358
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    joeguevara wrote: »
    The council doesnt care about new members. They are irrelevant. Indeed the whole structure of PIRA was no one knew who was in it or not. Therefore no one would fold under questioning.

    I'll leave you there Joe, I can't take this serious.


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    #4359
    joeguevara
    Registered Users Posts: 8,074 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    Bowie wrote: »
    I'll leave you there Joe, I can't take this serious.

    Do you think the army council cares about someone who has just joined Sinn Fein or started voting for them. Or do you think every Sinn Fein member is told about the council? Again the control structure has always been on a need to know basis.


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    #4360
    tikkahunter
    Registered Users Posts: 1,052 ✭✭✭tikkahunter


    https://www.rte.ie/news/regional/2020/1112/1177780-street-traders-ban/

    Just arguing against something for the sake of it . Typical SF


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    #4361
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,959 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Joe...please inform yourself properly. The IMA does not exist in this context. The IMC (the Independent Monitoring COmmission) Issued it's final report in 2011.

    What you have picked up on is an MI5 report in 2015 which had this to say:



    As long as that 'overarching strategy does not include violence that is fine by me.
    I did, after all, encourage them to get involved in wholly democratic means to achieve their aims. Aims I assume that are exactly the same as SF's.

    It is fine for you for the leadership of an allegedly defunct terrorist organisation to be in the background pulling the strings of the puppets that are supposed to be leading a political party?


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    #4362
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,959 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    tikkahunter wrote: »
    https://www.rte.ie/news/regional/2020/1112/1177780-street-traders-ban/

    Just arguing against something for the sake of it . Typical SF

    Absolutely, they are against non-essential retail in the North and for it in the South.

    A completely hypocritical party.


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    #4363
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    blanch152 wrote: »
    It is fine for you for the leadership of an allegedly defunct terrorist organisation to be in the background pulling the strings of the puppets that are supposed to be leading a political party?

    Puppets? Sure some of them are politicians with their faces on lamp posts for election. This whole seco seco, nod wink thing is poorly carried out by them all the same.
    Every party has unelected membership and advisers in HQ. Some even call in the British conservative helpers for campaigns.

    If you were in Xtra-vision, would you still be a member after it folded?


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    #4364
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,990 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    It is fine for you for the leadership of an allegedly defunct terrorist organisation to be in the background pulling the strings of the puppets that are supposed to be leading a political party?

    Do you think they'd be secretly sharing confidential files with vested interests behind the backs of their colleagues in government or something?


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    #4365
    joeguevara
    Registered Users Posts: 8,074 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Joe...please inform yourself properly. The IMA does not exist in this context. The IMC (the Independent Monitoring COmmission) Issued it's final report in 2011.

    What you have picked up on is an MI5 report in 2015 which had this to say:



    As long as that 'overarching strategy does not include violence that is fine by me.
    I did, after all, encourage them to get involved in wholly democratic means to achieve their aims. Aims I assume that are exactly the same as SF's.

    Did you forget to respond to the Martin O Muilleoir point?


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    #4366
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,959 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Do you think they'd be secretly sharing confidential files with vested interests behind the backs of their colleagues in government or something?

    Ted Howell owns a windfarm, so yes.


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    #4367
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,959 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Bowie wrote: »
    Puppets? Sure some of them are politicians with their faces on lamp posts for election. This whole seco seco, nod wink thing is poorly carried out by them all the same.
    Every party has unelected membership and advisers in HQ. Some even call in the British conservative helpers for campaigns.

    If you were in Xtra-vision, would you still be a member after it folded?

    I don't think any other party has an Army Council pulling the strings. Could be wrong now, not sure about Colombia and Venezuela, two favourite countries of Pearse Doherty.


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    #4368
    Hqrry113
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 273 ✭✭Hqrry113


    blanch152 wrote: »
    I don't think any other party has an Army Council pulling the strings. Could be wrong now, not sure about Colombia and Venezuela, two favourite countries of Pearse Doherty.

    "Army council" what army are people referring to when they say these things?


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    #4369
    joeguevara
    Registered Users Posts: 8,074 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    Hqrry113 wrote: »
    "Army council" what army are people referring to when they say these things?

    The one that brutally murdered Paul Quinn.


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    #4370
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,990 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Ted Howell owns a windfarm, so yes.

    And?
    Has he confessed to wrongdoing in relation to it?


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    #4371
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,786 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Hqrry113 wrote: »
    "Army council" what army are people referring to when they say these things?

    Google IRA army council..

    Plenty reading on it..

    SF members were on it...


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    #4372
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,990 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    joeguevara wrote: »
    The one that brutally murdered Paul Quinn.

    You need to read the IMC (not the IMA) report on that.


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    #4373
    joeguevara
    Registered Users Posts: 8,074 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    And?
    Has he confessed to wrongdoing in relation to it?

    O muilleoir had to get permission to proceed.


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    #4374
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,990 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    walshb wrote: »
    Google IRA army council..

    Plenty reading on it..

    SF members were on it...

    We know that. Why would you need to google?


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    #4375
    joeguevara
    Registered Users Posts: 8,074 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    You need to read the IMC (not the IMA) report on that.

    Hold on. The question was about an army. PIRA members murdered him as stated by Imc.


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    #4376
    nigeldaniel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,403 ✭✭✭nigeldaniel


    Almost everyone in the country knows that the army council run SF and direct them from everything to media training to organising how they operate at a local level. SF and its supporters can never admit to this and no one expects them to ever do so. It's the very nature that led to the infamous bust-up in cork a few years back when the top bass insisted on running candidates that matched the young vote and told the older wannabe to keep quiet and shut up. The old guys would not get the 20 something vote and that was final.

    Dan.



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    #4377
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,990 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    joeguevara wrote: »
    O muilleoir had to get permission to proceed.

    He asked somebody in SF what they thought of the proposal.


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    #4378
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,786 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    We know that. Why would you need to google?

    Nobody said you would need to google anything.

    I was quoting someone else...

    Post 4372


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    #4379
    joeguevara
    Registered Users Posts: 8,074 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    He asked somebody in SF what they thought of the proposal.

    Was it a confidential proposal?

    He asked for permission to proceed.


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    #4380
    imme
    Registered Users Posts: 3,200 ✭✭✭imme


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Ted Howell owns a windfarm, so yes.

    Did he not go in for the Renewable Heat Incentive scheme:D


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    #4381
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,990 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    nigeldaniel wrote: »
    Almost everyone in the country knows that the army council run SF and direct them from everything to media training to organising how they operate at a local level. SF and its supporters can never admit to this and no one expects them to ever do so. It's the very nature that led to the infamous bust-up in cork a few years back when the top bass insisted on running candidates that matched the young vote and told the older wannabe to keep quiet and shut up. The old guys would not get the 20 something vote and that was final.

    Reminds me of what FG executive council did when Coveney was elected leader by the membership


This discussion has been closed.
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