The wondrous adventures of Sinn Fein (part 2)

Nobotty

Where did the word provisional emanate from?
I understood it was used to distinguish the two

mynamejeff

Deleted User wrote: »

Where is the difference though.....virtually all anti-treaty old ira in my area,went on to endorse the provos??

Wasnt the last remaining WOI vetern a raging dissident,who retained support for militant republicanism well into his 2nd century?

by your logic blazz the new ira and real ira and every other ideation no matter how fringe lunatic are the same as the old irb/ira from the 1910/20 era , that is simply not true .

if you knew what you were talking about you would know that

who are you referring to ?
one person does not make a movement

mynamejeff

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What are you on about Jeff?

I said members of Irish government using taxpayers money tried to arm the IRA.

Is that claim TRUE or FALSE?


P.S. Leeway from what? Listening to your lies about a man's funeral?

you are trying to force words in my mouth when you and every one else knows the facts regardless how you try to twist them

So often the response to a lost argument from you and the boyos

FrancieBrady

mynamejeff wrote: »

you are trying to force words in my mouth when you and every one else knows the facts regardless how you try to twist them

So often the response to a lost argument from you and the boyos

Nobody was talking about the IRA split until you started on about it Jeff. You are on your own on that.

Now was the claim I made to IMME true or false?

mynamejeff

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nobody was talking about the IRA split until you started on about it Jeff. You are on your own on that.

Now was the claim I made to IMME true or false?

the claim you made was that the Irish state attempted to fund the IRA ignoring the fact that this was in 1969

your clear suggestion was that it was the ira that exists today.

that is a misleading statement and a lie


clear enough for you ?

FrancieBrady

mynamejeff wrote: »

the claim you made was that the Irish state attempted to fund the IRA ignoring the fact that this was in 1969

your clear suggestion was that it was the ira that exists today.

that is a misleading statement and a lie


clear enough for you ?

What?

I made the claim, was asked about it and said clearly what period and exact event I was referring too.

You wade in with your plus fours with something about the split in the IRA. Something I don't deny happened.

You are the one at fault here. I didn't try to mislead anyone.

What do you think the IRA was going to do with the arms by the way, shoot pheasant? :rolleyes:

By the way too, the IRA split practically in two with one side maintaining the core principle of abstentionism.
I woul maintain that the group that held true to the original has the legitimate claim to legitimacy.

mynamejeff

Deleted User wrote: »

To my eyes they are??
Whats the difference in fighting the brits in 1920 vs1970 vs 2020,nor reach back to fenians/1798 aswell??

Seems all the same to me anyway



Care to explain the difference,perhaps you can outline the influence and who the orginal dail given approval to?.


Perhaps you can also outline the difference in their aims and objectives aswell?



Oglagh dan keating,co kerry...was at his funeral......was kinda mortifying to the free staters,the last WOI volunteer,didnt recognise the state

like I said fringe lunatics with no democratic mandate and a fetish for violence and criminality

yes there is a enormous difference between the 1920s and 2020 republicanism.

what a man did for the right reasons in 1920 to believe that the same reasons exist in 2002 is sad for him,

then again everyone is entitled to their opinion , but not to murder and maim because of their opinion

mynamejeff

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What?

I made the claim, was asked about it and said clearly what period and exact event I was referring too.

You wade in with your plus fours with something about the split in the IRA. Something I don't deny happened.

You are the one at fault here. I didn't try to mislead anyone.

What do you think the IRA was going to do with the arms by the way, shoot pheasant? :rolleyes:

By the way too, the IRA split practically in two with one side maintaining the core principle of abstentionism.
I woul maintain that the group that held true to the original has the legitimate claim to legitimacy.

im disappointed in your level of debate here again francie tbh

do you think the arms were ment to blow the legs of kids in shopping towns in Warrington ? :rolleyes:

also your understanding of the split is horrifically poor and simplistic .

are you now suggesting like blazz that dissident republicanism is the legitimate republican movement

mynamejeff

Deleted User wrote: »

What are they??



How is stormont any different from,what was proposed for home rule??



Unless of course they are capitalists,then they can atrack and invade all sorts of countries for oil,and the irish governments will assist them with shannon stopover to keep multi-national onside...while lying to public about being neutral??

its only a two sentence paragraph , that's clear enough and shouldn't need explanation

right now Stormont is likely what they ment by home rule ,

your issues with the Americans are your own but id caution you ill informed Americans are where a lot of the dissident money comes from so you might not want to offend them

FrancieBrady

mynamejeff wrote: »

im disappointed in your level of debate here again francie tbh

do you think the arms were ment to blow the legs of kids in shopping towns in Warrington ? :rolleyes:

also your understanding of the split is horrifically poor and simplistic .

are you now suggesting like blazz that dissident republicanism is the legitimate republican movement

The arms were meant to kill. Who, what, why or where is immaterial.

What do I misunderstand about the split?

And no dissidents are not legitimate successors as the IRA didn't split around the signing of the GFA. Some people left though. The IRA were still around for a number of years after the agreement fulfilling their commitments to it and are now involved in SF.

And again, it is immaterial whether they are actually legitimate or not (like the Officials and Provos) they are a real threat to the peace.

joeguevara

Deleted User wrote: »

Provos are gone and much to the upset of FG,dont exist anymore

A new crowd has taken up.the mantle for next generation



Given the way the brits have been carrying on with brexit,do you honestly trust em to ever call a border poll??

the numbers are there to pass it now,and they cant be compelled to hold one,seems to me,when democracy fails,it leaves little other options

I think that if Scotland has another referendum and gain independence then England/Westminster would do anything that they could do offload the 6 counties.

imme

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Provos are gone and much to the upset of FG,dont exist anymore

A new crowd has taken up.the mantle for next generation



Given the way the brits have been carrying on with brexit,do you honestly trust em to ever call a border poll??

the numbers are there to pass it now,and they cant be compelled to hold one,seems to me,when democracy fails,it leaves little other options

A new crew you say?

You better tell Gerry 'clamp' Kelly.
Gerry tweeted recently about "Big Bob" to do with the Maze breakout.
It looks like he may be dismissed from the Policing Board.

Yes they are a new crew alright.

Is there anyone who has held ministerial office in NI that hasn't been in prison for anything other than terrorist acts.

Fann Linn

imme wrote: »

A new crew you say?

You better tell Gerry 'clamp' Kelly.
Gerry tweeted recently about "Big Bob" to do with the Maze breakout.
It looks like he may be dismissed from the Policing Board.

Yes they are a new crew alright.

Is there anyone who has held ministerial office in NI that hasn't been in prison for anything other than terrorist acts.

No surprise really. Our first Dail consisted of killers, bombers and gun runners, as did Castro's Cuba plus South Africa in the 90s under Mandela. Kinda goes with the territory.

One can only hope once they enter democratic processes that they remain there and in reference to NI that appears to be the case as verified by Clinton, de Chastelain plus lots of independent and neutral observers.

blanch152

Deleted User wrote: »

Provos are gone and much to the upset of FG,dont exist anymore

A new crowd has taken up.the mantle for next generation



Given the way the brits have been carrying on with brexit,do you honestly trust em to ever call a border poll??

the numbers are there to pass it now,and they cant be compelled to hold one,seems to me,when democracy fails,it leaves little other options

Wow, that is delusionary.

The share of the vote obtained by political parties who want a united Ireland is decreasing by the election in the North. We are actually moving further away from a border poll by that measure.

beggars_bush

joeguevara wrote: »

I think that if Scotland has another referendum and gain independence then England/Westminster would do anything that they could do offload the 6 counties.

Its not in their gift to do so
you obviously don't understand the good friday agreement

FrancieBrady

Fann Linn wrote: »

No surprise really. Our first Dail consisted of killers, bombers and gun runners, as did Castro's Cuba plus South Africa in the 90s under Mandela. Kinda goes with the territory.

One can only hope once they enter democratic processes that they remain there and in reference to NI that appears to be the case as verified by Clinton, de Chastelain plus lots of independent and neutral observers.

Fianna Fail ministers arrived to the first Dáil sittings armed.

Fann Linn

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Fianna Fail ministers arrived to the first Dáil sittings armed.

Correct. Some of the boys here would lead you to believe they went in cassocks with rosary beads however.

Nobotty

FrancieBrady wrote: »

By the way too, the IRA split practically in two with one side maintaining the core principle of abstentionism.
I woul maintain that the group that held true to the original has the legitimate claim to legitimacy.

Is that where the term provisional vs official IRA came from
Old Ira being civil war veterans?
Its futile to declare FF FG and the present SF weren't all splinters from the original seed
I didn't know anyone in the old IRA (obviously) but I'm told they were staunch Dev supporters
The vast majority supported the new 26 county Republic's government/institutions/entity whilst arguing/debating for a 32 county Republic
They did this by supporting FF rather than FG,the latter being too fond of the union
Thats the way it was taught to me anyway

FrancieBrady

Fann Linn wrote: »

Correct. Some of the boys here would lead you to believe they went in cassocks with rosary beads however.

Those who look down their noses and lecture would do well to read up on what happened in post conflict/war Ireland. There was, for instance, no decommissioning and arms dumps were belligerently allowed to rust away and their existence as a threat hung over those early Dáil years as the players in the conflict/war played around with the idea of being 'democrats'.

Lemass, in an off the cuff remark, got himself n hot water at one point, describing Fianna Fail as a 'slightly constitutional party'.
He was leader of FF at the time.

ohnonotgmail

Deleted User wrote: »

Catholics out number protestants


Your the guy,tried to gaslight people into think black and tans werent ric and that state funerals are somehow exempt from covid restrictions.....

up the path pal calling people delusionary,when your grasp of reality is limited at best

Catholic (or rather nominal catholic) <> nationalist

FrancieBrady

Nobotty wrote: »

Is that where the term provisional vs official IRA came from
Old Ira being civil war veterans?
Its futile to declare FF FG and the present SF weren't all splinters from the original seed
I didn't know anyone in the old IRA (obviously) but I'm told they were staunch Dev supporters
The vast majority supported the new 26 county Republic's government/institutions/entity whilst arguing/debating for a 32 county Republic
They did this by supporting FF rather than FG,the latter being too fond of the union
Thats the way it was taught to me anyway

'Provisional' was the name they gave themselves I think as they believed that they were the rightful authority awaiting the other to secede and for ratification.

The name just stuck as a nickname and doesn't mean anything beyond that.

Similar to when SF split shortly after the IRA split...one side was nicknamed the 'Stickies' (because they sold stick on Easter Lilies) while what is Mary Lou's SF was nicknamed the 'Pinies' because they sold Easter Lilies with pins.
One nickname stuck (excuse the pun) while the other didn't.

blanch152

Deleted User wrote: »

Catholics out number protestants


Your the guy,tried to gaslight people into think black and tans werent ric and that state funerals are somehow exempt from covid restrictions.....

up the path pal calling people delusionary,when your grasp of reality is limited at best

The sectarian viewpoint wins out again among republicans. The numbers game, the outbreeding, the equation of Catholicism with nationalism, all sectarian tropes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_United_Kingdom_general_election_in_Northern_Ireland

2019: 37.7%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_United_Kingdom_general_election_in_Northern_Ireland

2017: 41.1%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_United_Kingdom_general_election_in_Northern_Ireland

2015: 38.4%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_United_Kingdom_general_election_in_Northern_Ireland

2010: 42%


Apart from a blip in 2017, the downwards trend is clear, at best it could be claimed that the vote has stagnated for over a decade.

joeguevara

beggars_bush wrote: »

Its not in their gift to do so
you obviously don't understand the good friday agreement

Is it possible that instead of jumping in with a derisory comment, you took the time to actually read what I wrote. I did not say anything about who has ultimate powers as outlined in the good Friday agreement.

ohnonotgmail

Deleted User wrote: »

Its a circa 98% corrolation at last election however


Dress it up,whatever way yous want,when catholics outnumber protestants,as they do now,looks to me demograhically the numbers to pass a border poll are there

this is the vote share from the last general election in NI

Party % share
DUP Democratic Unionist Party 30.6%
SF Sinn Féin 22.8%
APNI Alliance Party 16.8%
SDLP Social Democratic & Labour Party 14.9%
UUP Ulster Unionist Party 11.7%
AONT Aontú 1.2%


It doesn't look so clear cut to me.

Bishop of hope

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Its a circa 98% corrolation at last election however


Dress it up,whatever way yous want,when catholics outnumber protestants,as they do now,looks to me demograhically the numbers to pass a border poll are there

If it was that clear cut SF would be all over it everyday.
I think it's about 60/40 in reality.

blanch152

Bishop of hope wrote: »

If it was that clear cut SF would be all over it everyday.
I think it's about 60/40 in reality.

There has been a persistent delusion for the last 40 years that a united Ireland is inevitable because Catholics are outbreeding Protestants. This sectarian viewpoint has dominated an awful lot of republican thinking and every so often gives rise to demands for a border poll at the slightest sign of the delusion becoming true.

What the delusion ignores is that rising prosperity in Northern Ireland since the end of the terrorist campaign erodes support for a united Ireland, even though that rising prosperity lags the rest of the UK and other countries like Ireland. To pursue the united Ireland objective, Sinn Fein need recessions.

FrancieBrady

Bishop of hope wrote: »

If it was that clear cut SF would be all over it everyday.
I think it's about 60/40 in reality.

The collolary is also true, if it were definitive not to pass why would Unionists be so afraid of one happening?

I'll tell you why I think that is the case. Because thinking that votes for political parties when a UI is not on the agenda means anything is foolish.


Unionists fear the calling of a poll because they fear the damage a campaign could do to the carefully crafted myths about a UI. They fear people looking too closely at how much NI actually costs, how much Ireland has changed and how much value is placed on their place in the Union by the other members of the union

If a UI is 'on the agenda' the figures would change dramatically, that is why those posting general election trends are keeping their heads in the sand.

The whole picture is the more relevant one.

ohnonotgmail

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-43823506


With the unionist community top heavy demographically age wise,makes the dup closing down covid restrictions bizzare


Every passing month,more catholics than protestants turn 18,and will continue to be so for the forseeable future.....while only age group protestants out number is in the over 65


Sinn fein are a joke for not forcing this issue more......this is the biggest issue to face ireland in medium term,much bigger than brexit will be and not one irish party is wanting to grasp this nettle by the hand

looking at the last general election only those who voted for SF and the SDLP (and probably not even all of those) are certs to vote yes. That is less than 40%. not so clear cut.

Bishop of hope

[Deleted User] wrote: »

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-43823506


With the unionist community top heavy demographically age wise,makes the dup closing down covid restrictions bizzare


Every passing month,more catholics than protestants turn 18,and will continue to be so for the forseeable future.....while only age group protestants out number is in the over 65


Sinn fein are a joke for not forcing this issue more......this is the biggest issue to face ireland in medium term,much bigger than brexit will be and not one irish party is wanting to grasp this nettle by the hand

You're assuming all catholics are after a United Ireland, that's not the case, some aren't happy with our services like health and are doubtful over a, united Ireland working.
Brexit is more likely to bring about a United Ireland than any nationalistic sentiment at present.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

There has been a persistent delusion for the last 40 years that a united Ireland is inevitable because Catholics are outbreeding Protestants. This sectarian viewpoint has dominated an awful lot of republican thinking and every so often gives rise to demands for a border poll at the slightest sign of the delusion becoming true.

What the delusion ignores is that rising prosperity in Northern Ireland since the end of the terrorist campaign erodes support for a united Ireland, even though that rising prosperity lags the rest of the UK and other countries like Ireland. To pursue the united Ireland objective, Sinn Fein need recessions.

This is the kind of thinking that leads FGers to suggest celebration of the Black and Tans.

They'll never actually confront the idea that there is a deep connection that partition has not broken. A connection to our own struggle for freedom and what was done by the British and in the north a deep conviction that the only solution to the problem they have (which never was as simple as a lack of prosperity) is an end to partition.