The wondrous adventures of Sinn Fein (part 2)

Bishop of hope

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why would it have an effect on the GFA? There have been many arrests since the GFA.

Just getting back to this, I had a memory of it from the programme.
The informant who gave the name of the man arrested yesterday seems to have been under the impression that no one could be charged with the Birmingham bombings now. Hence my query as to whether if the man was charged what it would mean going forward.
It seems you as knowledgeable as you are on all these matters haven't a clue either.
But I'd say if charges are brought it will perhaps have repercussions.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/four-alleged-ira-bombers-named-at-birmingham-inquests-1.3835171?mode=amp

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

On which there are many opinions. Failing to find any party with a defined policy on zoo's and circuses here, if anyone knows of one, please link. Found this while searching for party policies, UUP and Alliance in 2015 agreed with SF which suggests the Zoo is run down and lacking in investment.
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/call-for-belfast-zoo-to-close-down-what-do-you-think-34186779.html
After my own visits I would have to say that McGimpsey nailed it with 'A Victorian peep show' experience.

It would have been 2013 or 14 when I last was there though.

Francie, they didn't say that Belfast Zoo was run down they said the caging of animals for entertainment was unethical and not appropriate for a modern society.

"This council agrees to an ambitious plan to transform Belfast Zoo into a world-class visitor attraction by 2025. The display of caged animals in enclosures is wrong and unethical, it doesn't mirror in any way their natural habitat and has no place in modern society.

"The ratepayers of this city have to subsidise the zoo to the sum of £2.5 million per year. The savings from the zoo site could provide substantial funding for the much-needed regeneration of the city, create jobs, opportunities, and attract more visitors. The five-year transitional period will enable the council to safely return animals to their natural habitats in a carefully crafted phased approach.

"Furthermore the council will retain an on-site animal conservation programme for indigenous animals. The five years will also enable the council to consult with trade unions, staff and residents of the city through direct engagement and consultation.

"The council will commit to securing all jobs currently on the zoo site, with the options of retraining and redeployment. This will create an opportunity for the council to develop the site, create jobs, and promote the city ethically."

jh79

joeguevara wrote: »

There could be an issue on the very near horizon for SF and NI SF with MLM being very vocal on the actions of one high profile alleged criminal in Irish press and the reports that a senior SF MLA is personally acting for him in different legal actions (both criminal and civil). Notwithstanding the presumption of innocence, from an optics point of view it looks like a disaster.

Any chance John F will have to sue MLD for defamation on DK's behalf!

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Francie, they didn't say that Belfast Zoo was run down they said the caging of animals for entertainment was unethical and not appropriate for a modern society.

"This council agrees to an ambitious plan to transform Belfast Zoo into a world-class visitor attraction by 2025. The display of caged animals in enclosures is wrong and unethical, it doesn't mirror in any way their natural habitat and has no place in modern society.

"The ratepayers of this city have to subsidise the zoo to the sum of £2.5 million per year. The savings from the zoo site could provide substantial funding for the much-needed regeneration of the city, create jobs, opportunities, and attract more visitors. The five-year transitional period will enable the council to safely return animals to their natural habitats in a carefully crafted phased approach.

"Furthermore the council will retain an on-site animal conservation programme for indigenous animals. The five years will also enable the council to consult with trade unions, staff and residents of the city through direct engagement and consultation.

"The council will commit to securing all jobs currently on the zoo site, with the options of retraining and redeployment. This will create an opportunity for the council to develop the site, create jobs, and promote the city ethically."

I think it would be fair to say (and it was also my impression when there) that anything described as a 'Victorian peep show' is something that is run down and behind the times.

Go on tripadvisor, loads of similar complaints about the 'run down' aspect amid albeit positive reviews too.

Loads of 'opinion' on it as I said.

joeguevara

jh79 wrote: »

Any chance John F will have to sue MLD for defamation on DK's behalf!

That would be an interesting one alright. John is also under a bit of pressure getting paid two salaries, one for MLA and one for working full time in his law firm, but is now only getting a director salary there. Jaysuus not bad to be able to work 120 hours a week.

jm08

piplip87 wrote: »

I SF are announcing a large mixed development in West Belfast, while angry Pearse goes nuts and SF council members votes every one of them is proposed down in the South. Further proof of the hypocrisy. Playing politics with housing yet again. They don't want houses built until they are in government. https://www.facebook.com/718972321502855/posts/3506058722794187/

Fact Check:


Your ''mixed'' development in West Belfast is:.


Number of Social Houses being built: 550
Number of Affordable houses being built: 106.
Total number of houses being built: 656


The Development on Oscar Traynor Road site of 853 houses:
Social Housing: 250.
50% of the houses were proposed to be given to a private developer.
This is on State land and FFG wanted to hand over 50% of the site to one of their buddies to make a fortune out of.



This was rightly rejected by 48 votes to 14 by Dublin City Councillors.

IAmTheReign

joeguevara wrote: »

I didn't mean blindly, and it probably was the wrong use of word. I meant that I wouldn't vote it, if all of the materials and evidence showed that it would be a huge burden economically or socially. Some people would vote it irregardless as is their right and they have their reasons. Hope that explains it better.

This is exactly my point. If the evidence suggests it's a good idea for the country I'd be happy to vote for it, if it doesn't I won't. A decision that would cause significant social, political & economic upheaval needs some serious evidence behind it to consider it a good idea. Shrugging your shoulders and saying sure it'll be grand won't cut it. We've all seen the carnage that the Torys rash approach to Brexit has caused, we don't want a similar car crash here.

jm08

jh79 wrote: »

The link i gave says British SF want to turn it into a Tayto Park because the "display of caged animals in enclosures is wrong and unethical” and “the current treatment of animals for entertainment purposes should have no place in modern Belfast”.

So is Dublin Zoo unethical or not?

This proposal was originally put forward by the Ulster Unionist Party. You should be pleased that Sinn Fein supported them in their motion. Its obvious that Belfast Zoo is nothing like Dublin Zoo who are linked into many conservation/breedomg programmes around the world so that their sole purpose is not just to entertain.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think it would be fair to say (and it was also my impression when there) that anything described as a 'Victorian peep show' is something that is run down and behind the times.

Go on tripadvisor, loads of similar complaints about the 'run down' aspect amid albeit positive reviews too.

Loads of 'opinion' on it as I said.

I'm not disputing the condition of Belfast Zoo. The wording of British SF motion would be applicable to any zoo in the world. All contain caged animals for entertainment which they describe as unethical and outdated. It's completely at odds with MLD's statement in the Dail about Dublin Zoo.

jh79

jm08 wrote: »

This proposal was originally put forward by the Ulster Unionist Party. You should be pleased that Sinn Fein supported them in their motion. Its obvious that Belfast Zoo is nothing like Dublin Zoo who are linked into many conservation/breedomg programmes around the world so that their sole purpose is not just to entertain.

So is Belfast zoo according to some Zoo organisation who also pointed out that British SF proposal would of led to the death of the animals sent back into the wild.

jh79

jm08 wrote: »

This proposal was originally put forward by the Ulster Unionist Party. You should be pleased that Sinn Fein supported them in their motion. Its obvious that Belfast Zoo is nothing like Dublin Zoo who are linked into many conservation/breedomg programmes around the world so that their sole purpose is not just to entertain.

A statement from The European Association of Zoos and Aquaria, reported by ITV News, referred to Belfast Zoo's "impressive" record on conservation, and said that reintroducing the animals to the wild would result in "unavoidably high" mortality rates – perhaps up to 70 per cent. It added that the Sinn Fein plans showed "no understanding of these principles and outline no intention of engaging with experts in the field".

jh79

jm08 wrote: »

This proposal was originally put forward by the Ulster Unionist Party. You should be pleased that Sinn Fein supported them in their motion. Its obvious that Belfast Zoo is nothing like Dublin Zoo who are linked into many conservation/breedomg programmes around the world so that their sole purpose is not just to entertain.

Belfast Zoo is an active member of national, European and global zoo bodies; BIAZA, EAZA and WAZA. Zoos around the world work together to co-ordinate conservation work, education, research, breeding programmes and to ensure the highest standards of animal care.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Belfast Zoo is an active member of national, European and global zoo bodies; BIAZA, EAZA and WAZA. Zoos around the world work together to co-ordinate conservation work, education, research, breeding programmes and to ensure the highest standards of animal care.

Research the debate...there are many views on this subject even within parties.

Here is a piece from the Newsletter about a debate on Belfast Zoo, before the usual cohort made it about the usual bogeymen and women.

A councillor has vowed to shut down Belfast zoo after he described the council as " sponsors of animal cruelty". Ulster Unionist Chris McGimpsey says he will start a campaign to close, what he claimed was, "the abomination on Bellevue hill". In a passionate debate at this week's monthly meeting of Belfast City Council, Mr McGimpsey said animals should be in their natural habitat and he described the animals at the zoo as "traumatised ... lolling around with empty eyes". He has told fellow councillors: "This debate must take place and I'm convinced that one day we will take the decision to stop the abomination on Bellevue hill."
But demonstrating division within the Ulster Unionist ranks, Jim Rodgers said he would be "fighting tooth and nail" to keep the zoo open. "I can respect people's views but I am a big supporter of the zoo. It is one of the very best and staff are in the depths of despair at fear of its closure," said Mr Rodgers. DUP councillor Ian Crozier, who raised the issue with members at Monday night's meeting, said he had been "inundated" with phone calls from concerned constituents. Mr Crozier said the zoo was an "immense asset" to the city, providing education for over 24,000 children and young people each year. Ulster Unionist Davy Browne said young people didn't have to go to the zoo to learn about wild animals. "If they want to learn, they can watch TV - they don't have to go to the zoo," he said. "My own personal view is that I don't agree with zoos either. "I would prefer to see it turned into an endangered species breeding programme." As the debate rumbled on, Nelson McCausland, DUP, said the zoo was one of Ulster's top three visitor attractions. Mr McCausland said the council should be looking at how to integrate the zoo into tourism within the city. But Alliance councillor Naomi Long said: "Just because something is popular doesn't make it right." Sinn Fein's Tom Hartley paid tribute to Chris McGimpsey for raising the "very serious issue". "I do hope the new council addresses this issue. The debate is a reflection of issues that the council needs to deal with," he said.

After that, I'm not sure what your point is. Party with no defined policy makes different proposals for two different zoos. Shocker!

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

After that, I'm not sure what your point is. Party with no defined policy makes different proposals for two different zoos. Shocker!

If the intention was to close Belfast Zoo because of it's condition then fair enough, MLD position isn't contradictory. But the motion is written in a way to say all zoos are unethical and the wording of the motion is in contradiction with Irish SF position on Dublin Zoo.

jm08

jh79 wrote: »

So is Belfast zoo according to some Zoo organisation who also pointed out that British SF proposal would of led to the death of the animals sent back into the wild.

From article you linked.



... Ulster Unionist councillor Chris McGimpsey who pressed for the closure of the Zoo, but added that the Sinn Féin motion will “hopefully get this over the line as we have galvanised support on this”.


It costs the taxpayer 2.5m per year to run Belfast Zoo (which by the way, is the only municipal run zoo in Europe).


I'd imagine there are plenty of zoos that could take the animals such as Fota Island Wildlife Park where the animals would have better and more natural habitats.

jh79

jm08 wrote: »

I'd imagine there are plenty of zoos that could take the animals such as Fota Island Wildlife Park where the animals would have better and more natural habitats.

Yourself and Francie are claiming this motion only applies to Belfast Zoo and its condition which is not what the motion says.

An elephants natural habitat is no more Dublin than Belfast.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

If the intention was to close Belfast Zoo because of it's condition then fair enough, MLD position isn't contradictory. But the motion is written in a way to say all zoos are unethical and the wording of the motion is in contradiction with Irish SF position on Dublin Zoo.

What is SF's policy position on the ethical issues surrounding Zoo's?

If there is a 'contradiction' then that is where it will be.

If there is no 'party' position how is there a contradiction, party branches and party individuals differ on non policy issues all the time in every party. ?

I can't find a policy position on the matter from any party. If I am wrong maybe someone can point it out.

I suspect this is as a tweeter said under the SDLP tweet, 'a cheap jibe'.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What is SF's policy position on the ethical issues surrounding Zoo's?

If there is a 'contradiction' then that is where it will be.

If there is no 'party' position how is there a contradiction, party branches and party individuals differ on non policy issues all the time in every party. ?

I can't find a policy position on the matter from any party. If I am wrong maybe someone can point it out.

I suspect this is as a tweeter said under the SDLP tweet, 'a cheap jibe'.

I've no idea but the motion by British SF is certainly contradictory to MLD statement in the Dail. You'll have to ask Irish SF if they too want to send the animals back to their natural habitats even if that would more than likely kill them.

jh79

Tomorrow will be a bit more interesting than this zoo talk. SF are releasing some research on the economic benefits of a UI. Hopefully it will have some proposals on how it will be funded but i'm not expecting it to.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

I've no idea but the motion by British SF is certainly contradictory to MLD statement in the Dail. You'll have to ask Irish SF if they too want to send the animals back to their natural habitats even if that would more than likely kill them.

Well if the issue facing Dublin Zoo was one of ethics then I would expect views on ethics. As it was an issue of imminent closure and loss of jobs, I heard what I expected to hear from a political representative. Even if she is against zoo's - to support closure of it overnight or imminently, as was the case here, it would be a very wrong stance to take IMO.

A lot of smoke about nothing..why am I not surprised.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well if the issue facing Dublin Zoo was one of ethics then I would expect views on ethics. As it was an issue of imminent closure and loss of jobs, I heard what I expected to hear from a political representative. Even if she is against zoo's - to support closure of it overnight or imminently, as was the case here, it would be a very wrong stance to take IMO.

A lot of smoke about nothing..why am I not surprised.

Just an example of British and Irish SF having different views. No big deal. Tomorrow will be interesting with the publication of the UI document. Will be funny to see what SF ignore to make a UI seem appealing from an economic perpective.

IAmTheReign

jm08 wrote: »

Fact Check:


Your ''mixed'' development in West Belfast is:.


Number of Social Houses being built: 550
Number of Affordable houses being built: 106.
Total number of houses being built: 656


The Development on Oscar Traynor Road site of 853 houses:
Social Housing: 250.
50% of the houses were proposed to be given to a private developer.
This is on State land and FFG wanted to hand over 50% of the site to one of their buddies to make a fortune out of.



This was rightly rejected by 48 votes to 14 by Dublin City Councillors.

SF were all for handing over 50% of the land to a developer 3 years ago though. What's changed? Are we no longer in the midst of a housing crisis?

Plans to build almost 1,700 homes on three Dublin City Council sites, the city’s most ambitious housing programme since the property crash, have been approved by councillors.

The “mixed tenure” developments at O’Devaney Gardens, St Michael’s Estate and Oscar Traynor Road will have 30 per cent social housing, 20 per cent affordable rental, and 50 per cent private homes. More than 1,000 of the 1,700 homes will be apartments.

...

The chairman of the council’s housing committee, Sinn Féin’s Daithí Doolan, said the initiative was not just about bricks and mortar but about building communities. “We are in the midst of a housing crisis caused by years of starvation of funding for housing. What we have in front of us is a plan to deliver up to 1,700 homes for the city.”

The plans were approved by 53 to eight councillors. Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil, Labour and the Green Party, and several independents voted in favour. Anti-Austerity Alliance-People Before Profit, the Workers Party and some independents voted against the plans, saying they represented the privatisation of public land.

blanch152

https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2020/1118/1178987-school-clusters/

A few short weeks ago we had Mary-Lou and co standing up in the Dail to call for the schools to be closed because of Covid. Thankfully the Government stayed firm against this populist hysterical whinge that played on public fears. We now see:

"There has been a marked fall in the number of Covid-19 outbreaks recorded in schools, according to the latest Health Protection Surveillance Centre data."

Does anyone know if it is still Sinn Fein policy that the schools should be closed?

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2020/1118/1178987-school-clusters/

A few short weeks ago we had Mary-Lou and co standing up in the Dail to call for the schools to be closed because of Covid. Thankfully the Government stayed firm against this populist hysterical whinge that played on public fears. We now see:

"There has been a marked fall in the number of Covid-19 outbreaks recorded in schools, according to the latest Health Protection Surveillance Centre data."

Does anyone know if it is still Sinn Fein policy that the schools should be closed?

A few short weeks ago the government told us Level 3 was the way to go even though NPHET said otherwise. How did that go?

joeguevara

jh79 wrote: »

Just an example of British and Irish SF having different views. No big deal. Tomorrow will be interesting with the publication of the UI document. Will be funny to see what SF ignore to make a UI seem appealing from an economic perpective.

Bit like SF NI officials defend alleged worldwide criminals and act on their behalf and threaten Media with defamation cases and cease and desist and SF call same scourge of society to the public.

jm08

IAmTheReign wrote: »

SF were all for handing over 50% of the land to a developer 3 years ago though. What's changed? Are we no longer in the midst of a housing crisis?

Councillors were mislead (i.e., lied to) by a coalition of the willing of FG, FF, Labour & Greens.

https://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/55390

Sinn Féin is opposed to proposed deal with Bartra on O’Devaney Gardens because it delivered no affordable housing and the developer is set to make excessive profits with little return to the local community. The correspondence from Minister Murphy now calls into question the decision by elected members to transfer the land to Bartra. Sinn Féin will be seeking legal advice on the matter and will be raising this at the next available City Council meeting.”

jh79

joeguevara wrote: »

Bit like SF NI officials defend alleged worldwide criminals and act on their behalf and threaten Media with defamation cases and cease and desist and SF call same scourge of society to the public.

John's getting a lot of business thrown his way alright. Must be taking a break from his human rights work but bit of an extreme change of direction!

joeguevara

jh79 wrote: »

John's getting a lot of business thrown his way alright. Must be taking a break from his human rights work but bit of an extreme change of direction!

Hes actually a really lovely fella... and must have been such a tough thing to go through. But notice alot of work is coming through. Wonder myself is this one of the main reasons why the increased work on getting the Special Criminal Court abolished. Strange the absolute silence on it when raised though. I suppose talking about a few Bengal Tigers and aardvarks in Belfast Zoo trumps it though.

jh79

joeguevara wrote: »

Hes actually a really lovely fella... and must have been such a tough thing to go through. But notice alot of work is coming through. Wonder myself is this one of the main reasons why the increased work on getting the Special Criminal Court abolished. Strange the absolute silence on it when raised though. I suppose talking about a few Bengal Tigers and aardvarks in Belfast Zoo trumps it though.

It's a bad look when MTK are praising SF on twitter and not long after John starts working for him and his associates.

The Hutch gang are claiming that SF's recent windfall is no coincidence.

Is JF representing those involved in the intimidation of people in the Brady case? Not a wise move, if so. The lads arrested are members of DK's gang and Brady has links to some "Good Republicans".

FrancieBrady

joeguevara wrote: »

Hes actually a really lovely fella... and must have been such a tough thing to go through. But notice alot of work is coming through. Wonder myself is this one of the main reasons why the increased work on getting the Special Criminal Court abolished. Strange the absolute silence on it when raised though. I suppose talking about a few Bengal Tigers and aardvarks in Belfast Zoo trumps it though.

Is that a dig at me Joe?
The reason I didn't comment is because you just implied/insinuated something vague with no link to anything.