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The wondrous adventures of Sinn Fein (part 2)
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FrancieBrady wrote: »Nothing to show he sympathised or espoused Nazi ideology then.
Fair enough. That puts him in some exalted company so.
And is it relevant whether or not the Ukrainians were singing the "Horst Wessel" song when they were murdering Poles?
Actions speak louder than words. Collaboration means working together for a common purpose. Russell collaborated on a project to help the Nazis win the war.0 -
Why are you quoting me? I was commenting on how FF/FG were cosy with the Nazis. It's well known.
If people used PBP in the same manner some use SF, I'd be calling out any nonsense in there too. Don't confuse that with support.
It is untrue.
There was only one party who was sympathetic to the Nazis during the war - Sinn Fein.
If you argue that Sinn Fein was a new party in 1969 and had nothing to do with its predecessaors, then you are ok.
However, as long as SF claim a link back to 1920, then they have to own their political legacy.0 -
It is untrue.
There was only one party who was sympathetic to the Nazis during the war - Sinn Fein.
If you argue that Sinn Fein was a new party in 1969 and had nothing to do with its predecessaors, then you are ok.
However, as long as SF claim a link back to 1920, then they have to own their political legacy.
The blueshirts were by far the most fascist party in Ireland at the time, and probably since.0 -
It is untrue.
There was only one party who was sympathetic to the Nazis during the war - Sinn Fein.
If you argue that Sinn Fein was a new party in 1969 and had nothing to do with its predecessaors, then you are ok.
However, as long as SF claim a link back to 1920, then they have to own their political legacy.
If you don't know the history that's cool but don't sell your ignorance on the subject as fact.Charles Bewley Irish government envoy:
His reports from Berlin enthusiastically praised National Socialism and Chancellor Hitler.Ireland and the Nazis: a troubled history
As a neutral leader, de Valera trod a fine line between Nazi Germany and Britain, not helped by a pro-Nazi envoy in Berlin and his controversial condolences on Hitler’s death.
However, Bewley was not alone. Joseph P Walshe, the Secretary of the Department of External Affairs, was momentarily deceived by the intoxicating atmosphere of national reinvigoration that he found when he visited Cologne in 1933. He enthused about Germany’s “great experiment”. Sections of the British and American conservative elites were also misled into believing that Hitler was an indispensable tonic for the chaos that Germany experienced during the Weimar Republic before 1933. Was Hitler the leader to renew Germany? Perhaps he could be tamed to serve useful purposes? Many respectable commentators thought Adolf Hitler was a necessary defence against the “red threat” of Josef Stalin’s Soviet Union.Ireland has admitted for the first time that its 'morally bankrupt' regime of the 1930s denied visas to desperate Jews trying to escape from Nazi persecution.
Justice Minister Alan Shatter said that, following Adolf Hitler's rise to power, Ireland's anti-semitic Berlin ambassador Charles Bewley ensured 'the doors to this state were kept firmly closed to German Jewish families trying to flee'.
We know FG was born from the same ethos and we know FG welcomed anti-semitism in the form of Oliver J. Flanagan, (and others?) until the late 1980's. We know today FG Councilor O'Leary admires the Blueshirts.
There's reports on Nazis being wined and dined ffs.0 -
They're interesting links, thanks Bowie.
To be fair, blanch152 did refer to pro-Nazi sympathy during the war and by that stage the scales had dropped from many people's eyes. Bewley was dismissed (with prejudice and without a pension it seems) as the war began and, as one of the articles you linked to says, others had long since learnt more about Nazism:
"Walshe, de Valera and others in Dublin were quickly disabused of any mistaken admiration they might have held for Nazism. De Valera’s depiction as a half-caste Jew in a German newspaper in July 1933, coupled with the deprecation of Irish republicanism as part of a Jewish world conspiracy in other Nazi publications, resulted in an Irish protest to the German Foreign Office. Many unsettling incidents brought the pitiless and grotesque nature of Nazi rule to the attention of the Irish authorities, Bewley’s effort to deconstruct and dull any adverse representations of Nazi Germany notwithstanding. Bewley surprisingly downplayed evidence of Nazism’s hostility towards Catholicism but the Irish government, press and public were not misled by Nazi propaganda in this and several other respects"
Not many people in Irish public life had a particularly "good war". However the only group I know of that were willing to military collaborate with the Nazis were the IRA.
If there was a statue of Charles Bewley in Dublin and people still held ceremonies at it I'd feel the same way I do seeing Sinn Fein at Sean Russell's statue.0 -
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They're interesting links, thanks Bowie.
To be fair, blanch152 did refer to pro-Nazi sympathy during the war and by that stage the scales had dropped from many people's eyes. Bewley was dismissed (with prejudice and without a pension it seems) as the war began and, as one of the articles you linked to says, others had long since learnt more about Nazism:
"Walshe, de Valera and others in Dublin were quickly disabused of any mistaken admiration they might have held for Nazism. De Valera’s depiction as a half-caste Jew in a German newspaper in July 1933, coupled with the deprecation of Irish republicanism as part of a Jewish world conspiracy in other Nazi publications, resulted in an Irish protest to the German Foreign Office. Many unsettling incidents brought the pitiless and grotesque nature of Nazi rule to the attention of the Irish authorities, Bewley’s effort to deconstruct and dull any adverse representations of Nazi Germany notwithstanding. Bewley surprisingly downplayed evidence of Nazism’s hostility towards Catholicism but the Irish government, press and public were not misled by Nazi propaganda in this and several other respects"
Not many people in Irish public life had a particularly "good war". However the only group I know of that were willing to military collaborate with the Nazis were the IRA.
If there was a statue of Charles Bewley in Dublin and people still held ceremonies at it I'd feel the same way I do seeing Sinn Fein at Sean Russell's statue.
To be accurate, I had said: "I was commenting on how FF/FG were cosy with the Nazis. It's well known." Blanch said "It is untrue".
He then went on to turn the narrative as is his want.
Plenty a dedication to De valera. We'd an antisemtic minister in FG until 1987 and only a few months ago we'd a FG councillor admiring the Blueshirts.
I would say in the 30's it was a case of 'the enemy of my enemy' for the folk wined and dined the Nazi's in Irish high society too. Can't speak to De Valera after Hitler's death or Councilor O'Leary/Oliver J. Flanagan etc.
When the Irish government envoy was actively stopping Jews fleeing Germany looking for a safe haven in Ireland, was there a hint at what was happening with the Nazis do you think?
The idea of cherry picking what year being a Nazi collaborator verses looking after Irish interests or being a terrorist verses patriot stops or starts is interesting.0 -
Blanch referred to, and stated that 'there was only one party that was sympathetic to the Nazi's during the war' and named them as Sinn Fein.They're interesting links, thanks Bowie.
To be fair, blanch152 did refer to pro-Nazi sympathy during the war and by that stage the scales had dropped from many people's eyes. Bewley was dismissed (with prejudice and without a pension it seems) as the war began and, as one of the articles you linked to says, others had long since learnt more about Nazism:
That aside, wasn't there also an attempt to copy Mussolini's march on Rome by the Blueshirts on Leinster house, causing the then government to ban them, to become the young Ireland association.
Contrary to the version they would have everyone believe and their history they choose to delete, they were a fascist party on the back of a civil war nation, intent on causing more unrest.
O'Duffy had even gone to meet up with Mussolini (where the blue came from), and had tried to gain fascist international links.
It's easy to dig up any parties gritty past, (particularly in Ireland as no party has been around for very long) if you kick up enough dust. In the case of FG, where they like to appear holier than thou, their past is obviously a huge embarrassment for them for obvious reasons that we haven't even scratched the surface on.
But yet - Ironically, they are the ones intent on clinging on to the past and bringing it up at every chance they get.0 -
Blanch referred to, and stated that 'there was only one party that was sympathetic to the Nazi's during the war' and named them as Sinn Fein.
That aside, wasn't there also an attempt to copy Mussolini's march on Rome by the Blueshirts on Leinster house, causing the then government to ban them, to become the young Ireland association.
Contrary to the version they would have everyone believe and their history they choose to delete, they were a fascist party on the back of a civil war nation, intent on causing more unrest.
O'Duffy had even gone to meet up with Mussolini (where the blue came from), and had tried to gain fascist international links.
It's easy to dig up any parties gritty past, (particularly in Ireland as no party has been around for very long) if you kick up enough dust. In the case of FG, where they like to appear holier than thou, their past is obviously a huge embarrassment for them for obvious reasons that we haven't even scratched the surface on.
But yet - Ironically, they are the ones intent on clinging on to the past and bringing it up at every chance they get.
Typical FG here and on Social media...dredge up something to have a go...reveal far worse in their own party and past. Gas.0 -
FrancieBrady wrote: »Typical FG here and on Social media...dredge up something to have a go...reveal far worse in their own party and past. Gas.
The Jennifer Carroll MacNeill revelation is some dose of ironic sh1t for sure.0 -
To be accurate, I had said: "I was commenting on how FF/FG were cosy with the Nazis. It's well known." Blanch said "It is untrue".
He then went on to turn the narrative as is his want.
Plenty a dedication to De valera. We'd an antisemtic minister in FG until 1987 and only a few months ago we'd a FG councillor admiring the Blueshirts.
I would say in the 30's it was a case of 'the enemy of my enemy' for the folk wined and dined the Nazi's in Irish high society too. Can't speak to De Valera after Hitler's death or Councilor O'Leary/Oliver J. Flanagan etc.
When the Irish government envoy was actively stopping Jews fleeing Germany looking for a safe haven in Ireland, was there a hint at what was happening with the Nazis do you think?
The idea of cherry picking what year being a Nazi collaborator verses looking after Irish interests or being a terrorist verses patriot stops or starts is interesting.Blanch referred to, and stated that 'there was only one party that was sympathetic to the Nazi's during the war' and named them as Sinn Fein.
That aside, wasn't there also an attempt to copy Mussolini's march on Rome by the Blueshirts on Leinster house, causing the then government to ban them, to become the young Ireland association.
Contrary to the version they would have everyone believe and their history they choose to delete, they were a fascist party on the back of a civil war nation, intent on causing more unrest.
O'Duffy had even gone to meet up with Mussolini (where the blue came from), and had tried to gain fascist international links.
It's easy to dig up any parties gritty past, (particularly in Ireland as no party has been around for very long) if you kick up enough dust. In the case of FG, where they like to appear holier than thou, their past is obviously a huge embarrassment for them for obvious reasons that we haven't even scratched the surface on.
But yet - Ironically, they are the ones intent on clinging on to the past and bringing it up at every chance they get.
I have touched a nerve here.
All you have to say is that Provisional Sinn Fein were a new party in 1969 and had nothing to do with the previous strong links and collaboration with the Nazis and we are ok.
Sean Russell was a Sinn Fein Nazi collaborator, that is a fact, the question is whether the Sinn Fein party of today accept that or not.
The past is a time outside of living memory. I agree that bringing it up can be unproductive, but there is no shame in pointing out things that have happened within living memory.0 -
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The Jennifer Carroll MacNeill revelation is some dose of ironic sh1t for sure.
The same people spun the FG lie about heavies calling around and then trying to make it about covid once it was debunked, were fiercely absent in the condemnation of her actions.
If the outrage was genuine one would think a senior FG member threatening a younger FG member to stand aside or else, would have engendered similar outrage, if genuine.0 -
To be accurate, I had said: "I was commenting on how FF/FG were cosy with the Nazis. It's well known." Blanch said "It is untrue".
He then went on to turn the narrative as is his want.
Plenty a dedication to De valera. We'd an antisemtic minister in FG until 1987 and only a few months ago we'd a FG councillor admiring the Blueshirts.
I would say in the 30's it was a case of 'the enemy of my enemy' for the folk wined and dined the Nazi's in Irish high society too. Can't speak to De Valera after Hitler's death or Councilor O'Leary/Oliver J. Flanagan etc.
When the Irish government envoy was actively stopping Jews fleeing Germany looking for a safe haven in Ireland, was there a hint at what was happening with the Nazis do you think?
The idea of cherry picking what year being a Nazi collaborator verses looking after Irish interests or being a terrorist verses patriot stops or starts is interesting.
Well, when the shooting started and the Nazi invaded five or six countries in quick succession seems like a very definite time to draw a line0 -
I have touched a nerve here.
All you have to say is that Provisional Sinn Fein were a new party in 1969 and had nothing to do with the previous strong links and collaboration with the Nazis and we are ok.
Sean Russell was a Sinn Fein Nazi collaborator, that is a fact, the question is whether the Sinn Fein party of today accept that or not.
The past is a time outside of living memory. I agree that bringing it up can be unproductive, but there is no shame in pointing out things that have happened within living memory.
You aren't even responding to my comment here. What are you at?
Touched a nerve? You said my comment was untrue. I showed it was. Now you are talking about something else.
Yes Councilor O'Leary admiring the Blueshirts and Oliver J. Flanagan the anti-semetic who was an active FG minister until 1987. And Charlie Flanagan who wanted to commemorate the British forces of the RIC/Black and Tans for example.0 -
FrancieBrady wrote: »Typical FG here and on Social media...dredge up something to have a go...reveal far worse in their own party and past. Gas.
Well, there's not much dredging involved in remembering that a Chief of Staff of the IRA died on a German military vessel on his way to attempting to help the Nazis win the war.
Given that I pass his statue frequently, it's easy to remember that this Nazi collaborator is still a hero to SF.0 -
Blanch referred to, and stated that 'there was only one party that was sympathetic to the Nazi's during the war' and named them as Sinn Fein.
That aside, wasn't there also an attempt to copy Mussolini's march on Rome by the Blueshirts on Leinster house, causing the then government to ban them, to become the young Ireland association.
Contrary to the version they would have everyone believe and their history they choose to delete, they were a fascist party on the back of a civil war nation, intent on causing more unrest.
O'Duffy had even gone to meet up with Mussolini (where the blue came from), and had tried to gain fascist international links.
It's easy to dig up any parties gritty past, (particularly in Ireland as no party has been around for very long) if you kick up enough dust. In the case of FG, where they like to appear holier than thou, their past is obviously a huge embarrassment for them for obvious reasons that we haven't even scratched the surface on.
But yet - Ironically, they are the ones intent on clinging on to the past and bringing it up at every chance they get.
Was wrong on that?0 -
Well, when the shooting started and the Nazi invaded five or six countries in quick succession seems like a very definite time to draw a line
I'd agree. As I say Irish politics across the board was up to it's neck. Pointing out that it wasn't only SF as was suggested. Bewley stopping Jews fleeing Germany to Ireland, De Valera's condolences for Hitler etc.Was wrong on that?
Yes.
As with most FG claims SF were both Nazi collaborators and not connected to SF today, depends on the spin of the day.
It's basically FG trying to rewrite history and pass on the fascist baton.0 -
I'd agree. As I say Irish politics across the board was up to it's neck. Pointing out that it wasn't only SF as was suggested. Bewley stopping Jews fleeing Germany to Ireland, De Valera's condolences for Hitler etc.
Nope, Sinn Fein were up to their eyes with military collaboration with the Nazis. Reason being FF were helping the British with logistics.
Own your history, Bowie, just like you shouldn't apologise for the Provos targetting women and children, don't apologise for the Nazi collaboration.0 -
The same people spun the FG lie about heavies calling around and then trying to make it about covid once it was debunked, were fiercely absent in the condemnation of her actions.
If the outrage was genuine one would think a senior FG member threatening a younger FG member to stand aside or else, would have engendered similar outrage, if genuine.
The pile-on doesn't allow for it Bowie...let's pivot to something else. But it ends up embarrassing FG more when they do that. Never learn.
They managed to remind everyone on social media about the carry-on in Meath with the firebombs and intimidation too. Had passed me by anyway.
https://extra.ie/2019/06/30/news/politics/fine-gael-rattled-by-bullying-amid-allegations-of-intimidation-and-verbal-abuse0 -
FrancieBrady wrote: »The pile-on doesn't allow for it Bowie...let's pivot to something else. But it ends up embarrassing FG more when they do that. Never learn.
They managed to remind everyone on social media about the carry-on in Meath with the firebombs and intimidation too. Had passed me by anyway.
https://extra.ie/2019/06/30/news/politics/fine-gael-rattled-by-bullying-amid-allegations-of-intimidation-and-verbal-abuse
Desperate dragging up of stories out of the news will not save Sinn Fein this time. Looking forward to the weekend news.0 -
Ha... Haven't touched a nerve here, by a long shot. Almost the opposite.I have touched a nerve here.
All you have to say is that Provisional Sinn Fein were a new party in 1969 and had nothing to do with the previous strong links and collaboration with the Nazis and we are ok.
Sean Russell was a Sinn Fein Nazi collaborator, that is a fact, the question is whether the Sinn Fein party of today accept that or not.
The past is a time outside of living memory. I agree that bringing it up can be unproductive, but there is no shame in pointing out things that have happened within living memory.
All you have to do is admit how nasty FG's past was, and their association with Fascism and their intentions..
That association was still alive for some up to relatively recently too.0 -
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Hey, don't just take the line I've been given from FG head office on this. Here's a couple of quotes from historian Brian Hanley, who I'm pretty sure is far from a FGer.
On deflection that Russell etc al. never expressed belief in Nazi doctrines:
"But the reality was that, whether ideologically pro-Nazi or not, the IRA was committed to aiding the German war effort.
By late 1940 that meant supporting a German invasion of Ireland. The IRA’s opponents in Irish military intelligence were prepared to concede that the IRA ‘would give every assistance’ to the defence forces in the event of a British invasion but would assist the Germans if they landed. Across Europe a variety of ethnic and political groups collaborated with the Nazis in order to further their own agendas. Inevitably this meant active involvement in Nazi persecution of Jews and political opponents. It also meant becoming a part of the Nazi governmental machine. Does anyone seriously believe that the IRA would have avoided playing this role?"
"On the argument that nobody knew that the Nazis were nasty ("moral hindsight" as Francie calls it)
Furthermore, the argument that Russell and the IRA could have had no idea of the nature of Nazi policies is spurious.
That Nazi Germany was a one-party dictatorship was not a secret. The banning of political organisations and the jailing and
murder of opponents by the Nazis during 1933 and 1934 was widely reported in Ireland, not least in the IRA’s own press.
The November 1935 Nuremberg Laws, which stripped German Jews of citizenship rights and forbade physical relations between Jew and ‘Aryan’, were not a closely guarded secret. The support given to Franco by Germany and the destruction of Basque Guernica by Nazi bombers in May 1937 was actually condemned by An Phoblacht. The Kristallnacht pogrom of November 1938 that saw the murder of 100 people, the destruction of thousands of homes, businesses and synagogues and the jailing of 26,000 Jews was international news. By 1940 the Nazis had invaded and occupied a large part of Europe. That these occupied countries did not desire foreign occupation should have given pause for thought to a movement claiming to seek national self-determination."
https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/oh-heres-to-adolph-hitler-the-ira-and-the-nazis/0 -
Hey, don't just take the line I've been given from FG head office on this. Here's a couple of quotes from historian Brian Hanley, who I'm pretty sure is far from a FGer.
On deflection that Russell etc al. never expressed belief in Nazi doctrines:
"But the reality was that, whether ideologically pro-Nazi or not, the IRA was committed to aiding the German war effort.
By late 1940 that meant supporting a German invasion of Ireland. The IRA’s opponents in Irish military intelligence were prepared to concede that the IRA ‘would give every assistance’ to the defence forces in the event of a British invasion but would assist the Germans if they landed. Across Europe a variety of ethnic and political groups collaborated with the Nazis in order to further their own agendas. Inevitably this meant active involvement in Nazi persecution of Jews and political opponents. It also meant becoming a part of the Nazi governmental machine. Does anyone seriously believe that the IRA would have avoided playing this role?"
"On the argument that nobody knew that the Nazis were nasty ("moral hindsight" as Francie calls it)
Furthermore, the argument that Russell and the IRA could have had no idea of the nature of Nazi policies is spurious.
That Nazi Germany was a one-party dictatorship was not a secret. The banning of political organisations and the jailing and
murder of opponents by the Nazis during 1933 and 1934 was widely reported in Ireland, not least in the IRA’s own press.
The November 1935 Nuremberg Laws, which stripped German Jews of citizenship rights and forbade physical relations between Jew and ‘Aryan’, were not a closely guarded secret. The support given to Franco by Germany and the destruction of Basque Guernica by Nazi bombers in May 1937 was actually condemned by An Phoblacht. The Kristallnacht pogrom of November 1938 that saw the murder of 100 people, the destruction of thousands of homes, businesses and synagogues and the jailing of 26,000 Jews was international news. By 1940 the Nazis had invaded and occupied a large part of Europe. That these occupied countries did not desire foreign occupation should have given pause for thought to a movement claiming to seek national self-determination."
https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/oh-heres-to-adolph-hitler-the-ira-and-the-nazis/
The reason Sinn Fein disappear from the public eye in the 1940s and 1950s was because of the shameful collaboration with the Nazis of Sean Russell and co. However, like in so many other ways modern Sinn Fein refuses to own the legacy of its actions.0 -
Nope, Sinn Fein were up to their eyes with military collaboration with the Nazis. Reason being FF were helping the British with logistics.
Own your history, Bowie, just like you shouldn't apologise for the Provos targetting women and children, don't apologise for the Nazi collaboration.
Blanch I showed the government of the 30's admired Hitler. I showed antisemitism. We know the DeValera/Hitler condolences story.
I own our history Blanch. Difference is you seem to be rewriting it and choosing which parts pertain to you. SF, FG, FF etc. are our history. I own it. Do you?0 -
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The reason Sinn Fein disappear from the public eye in the 1940s and 1950s was because of the shameful collaboration with the Nazis of Sean Russell and co. However, like in so many other ways modern Sinn Fein refuses to own the legacy of its actions.
So they are the same party now? Did you tell Leo? :rolleyes:0 -
I'd agree. As I say Irish politics across the board was up to it's neck. Pointing out that it wasn't only SF as was suggested. Bewley stopping Jews fleeing Germany to Ireland, De Valera's condolences for Hitler etc.
Yes.
As with most FG claims SF were both Nazi collaborators and not connected to SF today, depends on the spin of the day.
It's basically FG trying to rewrite history and pass on the fascist baton.
Not quite sure what you're trying to say Bowie. It's probable that Bewley preventing Jews getting visas was the worst successful act carried out by Irish citizens during the Nazi period. But he was fired before the war began.
The IRA doing their best to help the Nazis win the war was probably the worst unsuccessful action by Irish citizens.
The clearest connection from today's Sinn Fein back to Sean Russell is the particular veneration (incredible and unecessary in my eyes) that Mary Lou et al pay to him.
By the way, the DeValera condolences visit is a meaningless sideshow. In no way indicative of support for a shattered ideology.0 -
Not quite sure what you're trying to say Bowie. It's probable that Bewley preventing Jews getting visas was the worst successful act carried out by Irish citizens during the Nazi period. But he was fired before the war began.
The IRA doing their best to help the Nazis win the war was probably the worst unsuccessful action by Irish citizens.
The clearest connection from today's Sinn Fein back to Sean Russell is the particular veneration (incredible and unecessary in my eyes) that Mary Lou et al pay to him.
By the way, the DeValera condolences visit is a meaningless sideshow. In no way indicative of support for a shattered ideology.
Russell did more than try and use the German's to his own advantage. HHe was involved all the way back to the 1910's.
Try some perspective there RD.0 -
Blanch I showed the government of the 30's admired Hitler. I showed antisemitism. We know the DeValera/Hitler condolences story.
I own our history Blanch. Difference is you seem to be rewriting it and choosing which parts pertain to you. SF, FG, FF etc. are our history. I own it. Do you?
Blanch doesn't know his history from a few hours ago, he's after trying to claim it was actually Jennifer Carroll MacNeill who had to bring her daddy with her for support blackmailing the YFG member over in the other thread. :pac:0 -
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Not quite sure what you're trying to say Bowie. It's probable that Bewley preventing Jews getting visas was the worst successful act carried out by Irish citizens during the Nazi period. But he was fired before the war began.
The IRA doing their best to help the Nazis win the war was probably the worst unsuccessful action by Irish citizens.
The clearest connection from today's Sinn Fein back to Sean Russell is the particular veneration (incredible and unecessary in my eyes) that Mary Lou et al pay to him.
By the way, the DeValera condolences visit is a meaningless sideshow. In no way indicative of support for a shattered ideology.
I take your view. I see them all complicit.
We shouldn't hand-wave Dev giving condolences. This is all our past collectively IMO. None of us were alive. Its all Irish history.
No current politician was there.
De Valera was no Saint in other areas. He was our president.0
This discussion has been closed.
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