The wondrous adventures of Sinn Fein (part 2)

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

Sunningdale wasn't a failure, it stood the test of time and formed the core of the GFA.

It was SF/IRA and extreme unionism who failed the people by their reaction to Sunningdale. Those slow learners, to use a Stanleyesque phrase, took over 20 years to realise it was the only possible deal. If you are looking for failures, look no further than those that killed people for twenty years before accepting the deal that was on the table already.

Sunningdale was one of the best recruiting drives for the PIRA.


Tell me why do you think SF has such support in NI? Why is the SDLP not getting more support from the voters in NI, particularly when SF doesn't sit in Westminster?

Danzy

markodaly wrote: »

Just on John Hume..



If he was a failure, I would love to be one.

Don't sell your self short.

We know you are.

😉

FrancieBrady

jm08 wrote: »

Sunningdale was one of the best recruiting drives for the PIRA.


Tell me why do you think SF has such support in NI? Why is the SDLP not getting more support from the voters in NI, particularly when SF doesn't sit in Westminster?

It most definitely made things worse. A complete and utter tragic failure of politics and of politicians involved.

Bonniedog

The Council of Ireland was nothing to do with getting a united Ireland. It was giving the nationalist/Catholic population the assurance that Dublin would stand up for their interests.

there is no equivalent in the GFA by the way.

The reason SF eclipsed the SDLP because it is a more efficient electoral party and offered something new. It is no closer to achieving a united Ireland, but at least the SDLP only barely pretended that was an end goal.

FrancieBrady

Bonniedog wrote: »

The Council of Ireland was nothing to do with getting a united Ireland. It was giving the nationalist/Catholic population the assurance that Dublin would stand up for their interests.

The SDLP were in Dublin giving speeches about how they saw the 'Council of Ireland' as "the vehicle that would trundle Unionists into a united Ireland".

That was the final straw for Unionists and we saw what happened.

Bishop of hope

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The SDLP were in Dublin giving speeches about how they saw the 'Council of Ireland' as "the vehicle that would trundle Unionists into a united Ireland".

That was the final straw for Unionists and we saw what happened.

Whose going to sell it to them?
It won't be sold, it will be democratically voted for and the majority of them will never vote for it.
It will have to be forced on them as such even then.

Brendan Bendar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Any of us who call ourselves Irish and who have pride in our sovereignty and freedom has 'blood on our hands' whether you were physically involved or not.
Don't be hypocritical about it. Dying for a cause in 1916 was just as real and savage as it was in 1976.

Bit of a stretch there Francie .......

FrancieBrady

Bishop of hope wrote: »

Whose going to sell it to them?
It won't be sold, it will be democratically voted for and the majority of them will never vote for it.
It will have to be forced on them as such even then.

You might say the same of the current arrangement vis a vis 'force'. Nationalists are forced to live in a situation they don't want to.
Nationalists have agreed to do this as long as the majority want it to be that way, Unionists have, in the majority said the same of a UI, that they too will accept the decision of the majority.

FrancieBrady

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Bit of a stretch there Francie .......

The 'stretch' is the effort to pretend that the methods of achieving our own freedom was any different to that of northern nationalists and to divorce yourself from the realities of one and not the other.

People were killed for your freedom Brendi.

Brendan Bendar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The 'stretch' is the effort to pretend that the methods of achieving our own freedom was any different to that of northern nationalists and to divorce yourself from the realities of one and not the other.

People were killed for your freedom Brendi.

Indeed they were Francie, may they Rest In Peace.

What was it in Omagh ....29 including a pregnant woman and Spanish students.

I think I’d sacrifice ‘freedom’ to bring all those innocents back, in the cold light of day.

Some however might see them as ‘expendable’ pawns in game, usually well away from the event but ever anxious to keep the fires lighting and the bitterness flowing for as long as they can.

Some folk can see through these ‘warhorses’ Francie, there are folk out there who see the big picture and are not driven by foolish idealism into a campaign of death and destruction.

Some folk see other ways and innocent people are alive and prospering because of it.

McMurphy

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Indeed they were Francie, may they Rest In Peace.

What was it in Omagh ....29 including a pregnant woman and Spanish students.

I think I’d sacrifice ‘freedom’ to bring all those innocents back, in the cold light of day.

Some however might see them as ‘expendable’ pawns in game, usually well away from the event but ever anxious to keep the fires lighting and the bitterness flowing for as long as they can.

Some folk can see through these ‘warhorses’ Francie, there are folk out there who see the big picture and are not driven by foolish idealism into a campaign of death and destruction.

Some folk see other ways and innocent people are alive and prospering because of it.

Omagh was carried out by dissidents Brenner (I'm sure you know this already) - Maira Cahill's crew.

Enda and Joan embraced her with open arms lest we forget.

FrancieBrady

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Indeed they were Francie, may they Rest In Peace.

What was it in Omagh ....29 including a pregnant woman and Spanish students.

I think I’d sacrifice ‘freedom’ to bring all those innocents back, in the cold light of day.

Some however might see them as ‘expendable’ pawns in game, usually well away from the event but ever anxious to keep the fires lighting and the bitterness flowing for as long as they can.

Some folk can see through these ‘warhorses’ Francie, there are folk out there who see the big picture and are not driven by foolish idealism into a campaign of death and destruction.

Some folk see other ways and innocent people are alive and prospering because of it.

It isn't I who is using the selective victims list Brendi. Many many were suffering long before the place went up in flames.
Those who stood idly by watching it have blood on their hands too, however much they want to wash it off with nice smelly soap.

blanch152

McMurphy wrote: »

Omagh was carried out by dissidents Brenner (I'm sure you know this already) - Maira Cahill's crew.

Enda and Joan embraced her with open arms lest we forget.

Nauseating disingenuous nonsense.

Mairia Cahill has apologised for her six months with the dissidents as a vulnerable young woman recovering from horrific abuse by Sinn Fein and the PIRA.

Brendan Bendar

McMurphy wrote: »

Omagh was carried out by dissidents Brenner (I'm sure you know this already) - Maira Cahill's crew.

Enda and Joan embraced her with open arms lest we forget.

I’m sure Randal, those poor souls weren’t concerned who carried it out.

Only the faceless folk and those eager to keep the fires burning would have any concern or interest in that, other than law enforcement.

You see Randal, to keep the ‘street cred ’ these people need to give the impression that, to use the euphemism ‘they were in the GPO in ‘16’.

In other words to give the impression they somehow they took part in ‘operations’ even thought they were never next or near any ‘operation’

All part of the game,Randal,(I’m sure you know this already)

grayzer75

blanch152 wrote: »

Nauseating disingenuous nonsense.

Mairia Cahill has apologised for her six months with the dissidents as a vulnerable young woman recovering from horrific abuse by Sinn Fein and the PIRA.

She was 29 when she was National Secretary of RNU - she was at the heart of the organisation.

James Brown

markodaly wrote: »

Who is Andrew Dunne?

Honest question. See I don't spend my days travelling Twitter looking for outrage or laughs in this idiotic political meme games that some like to go on about.

You seem fairly outraged TBH.

jm08

Bonniedog wrote: »

The Council of Ireland was nothing to do with getting a united Ireland. It was giving the nationalist/Catholic population the assurance that Dublin would stand up for their interests.

there is no equivalent in the GFA by the way.

The reason SF eclipsed the SDLP because it is a more efficient electoral party and offered something new. It is no closer to achieving a united Ireland, but at least the SDLP only barely pretended that was an end goal.

Funnily enough, Noel Dorr (former Ambassador who was involved in Sunningdale negotiations as a young diplomat) said that there was an issue with the Irish Gov. (Cosgrave & FitzGerald) of not paying enough attention to unionist fears. He said that Cosgrave & FitzGerald regarded Sunningdale as a road to a UI and even made plans to move over 20,000+ civil servants to support this Council.


It also illustrated perfectly to nationalists how loyalists were not prepared to powershare with the likes of John Hume and Paddy Devlin and hence the support growing for Sinn Fein.

jm08

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

I’m sure Randal, those poor souls weren’t concerned who carried it out.

Only the faceless folk and those eager to keep the fires burning would have any concern or interest in that, other than law enforcement.

You see Randal, to keep the ‘street cred ’ these people need to give the impression that, to use the euphemism ‘they were in the GPO in ‘16’.

In other words to give the impression they somehow they took part in ‘operations’ even thought they were never next or near any ‘operation’

All part of the game,Randal,(I’m sure you know this already)

Brendan, where do you stand on 1916? Are you a Redmondite?

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

Nauseating disingenuous nonsense.

Mairia Cahill has apologised for her six months with the dissidents as a vulnerable young woman recovering from horrific abuse by Sinn Fein and the PIRA.

Do you support all dissidents? What about the shooting of Lyra McKee, you condone that? Do FG support all dissidents or just the ones endanger the peace process if they can score cheap points off them?
Do you think there are dissidents out there thinking all they need do is recant their beliefs and score a senate job off FG to stick it to SF? I would imagine FG would accommodate.

blanch152

Bowie wrote: »

Do you support all dissidents? What about the shooting of Lyra McKee, you condone that? Do FG support all dissidents or just the ones endanger the peace process if they can score cheap points off them?
Do you think there are dissidents out there thinking all they need do is recant their beliefs and score a senate job off FG to stick it to SF? I would image FG would accomodate.

What a silly set of questions!!

(1) I am not FG
(2) Mairia Cahill was in a dissident organisation for six months
(3) She has apologised for her membership and support of dissidents
(4) Why would I condone the shooting of Lyra McKee, when I have condemned many other killings
(5) The killing of Lyra McKee was equally abhorrent to me as the killing of Mountbatten. Was it to you?

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

What a silly set of questions!!

(1) I am not FG
(2) Mairia Cahill was in a dissident organisation for six months
(3) She has apologised for her membership and support of dissidents
(4) Why would I condone the shooting of Lyra McKee, when I have condemned many other killings
(5) The killing of Lyra McKee was equally abhorrent to me as the killing of Mountbatten. Was it to you?

FG/Lab gave a dissident republican who campaigned against the GFA a senate position.

No. Lyra McKee was an innocent bystander shot by dissidents who do not support peace.
Mountbatten was a legitimate target in the conflict, It's unfortunate others died too. If I had my way nobody would have died but in a conflict that's not realistic.

What's your view on the BA/UDA blowing up two teenagers?

RandomViewer

Bowie wrote: »

FG/Lab gave a dissident republican who campaigned against the GFA a senate position.

No. Lyra McKee was an innocent bystander shot by dissidents who do not support peace.
Mountbatten was a legitimate target in the conflict, It's unfortunate others died too. If I had my way nobody would have died but in a conflict that's not realistic.

What's your view on the BA/UDA blowing up two teenagers?

All FG Taoisigh since Johny Bruton have been anti GFA, old Fitzgerald would have made an attempt in his own Fuddy Duddy way but once the Gekko groupies took over the hatred of any Republican sentiment was obvious, most of them still have their grandad's tan uniform

Brendan Bendar

jm08 wrote: »

Brendan, where do you stand on 1916? Are you a Redmondite?

As Jack Nicholson said in a famous movie, to paraphrase “ I would’ t know a Remondite if I pissed on one”

Now direct me to the 1916 thread and I’ ll try to figure out where I stood.

Which way is it

Brendan Bendar

Bowie wrote: »

FG/Lab gave a dissident republican who campaigned against the GFA a senate position.

No. Lyra McKee was an innocent bystander shot by dissidents who do not support peace.
Mountbatten was a legitimate target in the conflict, It's unfortunate others died too. If I had my way nobody would have died but in a conflict that's not realistic.

What's your view on the BA/UDA blowing up two teenagers?

“Unfortunate” you say........

Hope you never get “Unfortunate”.

Bonniedog

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The SDLP were in Dublin giving speeches about how they saw the 'Council of Ireland' as "the vehicle that would trundle Unionists into a united Ireland".

That was the final straw for Unionists and we saw what happened.

What happened?

50 years later and still no nearer to a united Ireland.

Would love to see a source for that SDLP statement, if you have it?

hatrickpatrick

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

“Unfortunate” you say........

Hope you never get “Unfortunate”.

How would you feel about an alternative view: it’s absolutely abhorrent that any innocent people were caught up in that attack and the IRA should have ensured that this was not the case. However, the attack itself was against a member of a brutal, oppressive, hostile army whose entire presence on this island was specifically for the purpose of oppressing the Catholic campaign against systemic discrimination, and therefore, had it not killed civilians alongside him, would not be something I would condemn.

It is for this reason that I also 100% support the right of people like Stanley to celebrate an attack like Warrenpoint, which did succeed in only targeting British military personnel. If they had stuck solely to this type of attack during their entire history, I for one wouldn’t have a bad word to say about them. Alas, like so many insurgent groups, they were overcome by reckless hatred.

FrancieBrady

Bonniedog wrote: »

What happened?

The conflict/war deepened and positions became more entrenched.

50 years later and still no nearer to a united Ireland.

Jury is out on that one.

Would love to see a source for that SDLP statement, if you have it?

https://www.drb.ie/blog/comment/2020/05/12/sunningdale-trundling-on

Bonniedog

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

the Catholic campaign against systemic discrimination, .

The IRA campaign was not against Catholic discrimination.

It was for a British withdrawal and a 32 county Republic.

Therefore, it was defeated.

I do agree that Stanley should not have been forced by Stormont Sinn Féin to grovel over a legitimate military action.

Bonniedog

FrancieBrady wrote: »

https://www.drb.ie/blog/comment/2020/05/12/sunningdale-trundling-on

Thanks.

Don't think Logue was articulating either the main SDLP position, and certainly not that of the Coalition in Dublin which dreaded any move towards to a united Ireland.

FrancieBrady

Bonniedog wrote: »

Thanks.

Don't think Logue was articulating either the main SDLP position, and certainly not that of the Coalition in Dublin which dreaded any move towards to a united Ireland.

The fact is he articulated it and I don't think he was censured or corrected on it by the SDLP.

Regardless, it was the final straw for Unionist.

I'll let jm08 find the piece where Noel Dorr said that Cosgrove and Fitzgerald thought it would bring a UI as well.

It was amatuer hour really and Sunningdale and those behind it, failed spectacularly. Dublin, Belturbet and Monaghan got bombed as a result of the escalation it caused.