The wondrous adventures of Sinn Fein (part 2)

Triangle

Bowie wrote: »

It's dishonest spin. Different scenario and model of government.
Also SF in the north and south want an all island approach. SF in the north want more restrictions. The DUP do not in both cases so you are greatly mistaken. But you knew that.

FF/FG/Greens are cherry picking again.

Don't let your hatred of government take over Bowie.
Alot of greens know a lot of the issues stem from the DUP.

But the polarisation up there is not something I want down here. We'd be better off all round if the parties worked together to form a government (including SF, Labour and SD).
And yes I know FF and FG said they won't talk to SF - but they should.

rdwight

Deleted User wrote: »

Stormont is a farce,it deosnt work

Noone should be supporting it,pull the plug and push.on for reunification

I think you mean wait for reunification. A united ireland will arrive in a few years now, delivered by demographics as could have been predicted in 1920 and not hastened one year by anything the IRA or SF have done in the last 100 years. In fact, their actions have just ensured that the process will be more bitter than it needed to be.

jm08

rdwight wrote: »

Are you being ironic? I hope so. Or do you think the results of cash-for-ash inquiry and language rights justified three lost years?

By the way, welcome to boards.ie

Not three lost years - it was probably the only way that legislation passed for Same Sex Marriage and for Women's Right to Choose!

rdwight

rdwight wrote: »

I think you mean wait for reunification. A united ireland will arrive in a few years now, delivered by demographics as could have been predicted in 1920 and not hastened one year by anything the IRA or SF have done in the last 100 years. In fact, their actions have just ensured that the process will be more bitter than it needed to be.

there's no stopping a United Ireland, the current debate is what type of Ireland that will be.

Personally I want a federal system with a Munster version of Stormont, less power for Dublin, none of Munster's taxes going outside the province etc.

Bubbaclaus

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Catholics literally outnumber prodestants....its time to get a move on and the processes in place

Do they outnumber them at voting age though? And are you factoring in that polls show that there is a higher percentage of the 'Catholic side' that would vote against a UI than Protestants that would vote for it?

It's coming, but I think it's a good while off yet. 2040 at the earliest would be my thinking. Unless Brexit ends up being an even bigger disaster than anticipated.

FrancieBrady

rdwight wrote: »

I think you mean wait for reunification. A united ireland will arrive in a few years now, delivered by demographics as could have been predicted in 1920 and not hastened one year by anything the IRA or SF have done in the last 100 years. In fact, their actions have just ensured that the process will be more bitter than it needed to be.

Another who thinks people should have sat quietly and obediently while being tramped on and lived in hope democracy might have occurred to a sectarian bigoted government.

Bubbaclaus

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Deos your polling data include the refugees from the 6 counties living in the free state,virtually all of whom are nationlists?

If these "refugees" are long term residents of the Republic, then they would be voting on the Southern side of the two referendum votes.

Bubbaclaus

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

If these "refugees" are long term residents of the Republic, then they would be voting on the Southern side of the two referendum votes.

What makes you conclude this?

Why cant they vote in their home constituencies,if still registered there

Nationlists can vote twice,its our country afterall

James Brown

Triangle wrote: »

Don't let your hatred of government take over Bowie.
Alot of greens know a lot of the issues stem from the DUP.

But the polarisation up there is not something I want down here. We'd be better off all round if the parties worked together to form a government (including SF, Labour and SD).
And yes I know FF and FG said they won't talk to SF - but they should.

Hate suggests lack of specifics. There's plenty to point to.
The Greens are ****ed, again. They were close to a split over the leadership and over going into government and over policy.

Was speaking on the blarney claim SF are responsible for the raging covid situation when the DUP is blocking SF calls for an all island approach and the DUP want laxed restrictions for Christmas.
Also the repeated willful ignorance of comparing the Dail to Stormont.

I would lose respect for any party partners with FF and until FG make major changes, same goes for them.

Bubbaclaus

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What makes you conclude this?

Why cant they vote in their home constituencies,if still registered there

Nationlists can vote twice,its our country afterall

I don't think voting twice should be condoned, it would bring the entire referendum into complete disrepute. Any referendum needs to be fair to both sides of it.

Would you be fine with Unionist "refugees" returning from GB to vote? Have you considered the size of that population also? There has been a lot of migration from NI to GB over the years.

TheTruth123

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

I don't think voting twice should be condoned, it would bring the entire referendum into complete disrepute. Any referendum needs to be fair to both sides of it.

Would you be fine with Unionist "refugees" returning from GB to vote? Have you considered the size of that population also? There has been a lot of migration from NI to GB over the years.

People from the 6 counties, the majority will vote in the North only id imagine as the 26 counties will vote for a United Ireland easily anyway IMO

Bubbaclaus

[Deleted User] wrote: »

By all.means they can,deosnt bother me,the more votes and voices herd the better....


The whole referendum.is a farce anyway,should be done on a 32 county basis, ot 26 plus 6......stormont has been an utter failure after 20 years,its never going to work

Doing it on a 32 county basis wouldn't make any sense. The wishes of the people living in NI should be respected, without having the 26 force a decision on them.

That suggestion would be like the Brexit referendum allowing the entirety of the EU to vote in it. We might not like the result, but it's the wishes of the people.

Bubbaclaus

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Would be more appropriate to compare having a brxit vote and england deciding NI,wales and scotland votes



Oh wait......that happened

That's not what happened. The UK was one entity in the EU and it voted as one entity to leave the EU.

England didn't decide anything. You know that though.

hatrickpatrick

markodaly wrote: »

Oh right, the Trumpian 'Fake News' response to legitimate criticism.
Not a good look.

I'm not remotely describing anything as fake news. I'm suggesting that the Irish Times and Indo in particular have run seemingly relentless condemnation pieces aimed at SF and far more than those aimed at other mainstream parties, which is giving rise to the very legitimate hypothesis among even many who despise SF, that these papers have an agenda and are not being impartial.

Personally I'd actually go with Occam's Razor on this and suggest that as opposed to necessarily a political agenda, the agenda is to drive clicks. Hence why some SF supporters are suggesting that people shouldn't link directly to such articles when sharing them with other SF supporters, as it adds fuel to that fire.

Ill repeat, you have a point there, but SF are lying to you when they talk about cheap houses for everyone. It is not about ideology, its about practical solutions to provide housing.

Ideology has to follow policy though, surely you must see this? The practicalities of policy will never be solved by people who don't ideologically agree with solving it. FG and to a lesser extent FF seem to be delighted that young peoples' incomes are being sacrificed on the altar of passive income for older generations. They don't come across as if they want to solve it, they come across as saying "your quality of life is going to keep declining and you just have to learn to live with it".

Voting for such a party when you're part of the demographic being told to accept ever-declining quality of life is surely obviously not something most people are going to do?

SF voted against the proposal to build 853 homes, because of ideological reasons.

They voted against a proposal to build market-price housing on public land. Market prices are too high. Not one square centimetre of public land should be used to decimate a person's income in that manner.

Any new plan will take up to 8 years to come to fruition. SF councillors are actively stopping houses being built, in the hope they can pin the blame on central government. It seems some suckers are falling for it.

It is the central government who is insisting on an obscene level of private, full market price development being included in social housing projects, though. That's what they're voting against, and they're absolutely right to do so.

SF are seen as the anti-establishment party at the moment, who promise cheap housing and a UI Ireland with all the other stuff like low taxes but world class public services. I have magic beans to sell.

We had public housing when the country was skint broke during the early 20th century. It's f*cking moronic that anyone is still claiming otherwise.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-opposition-to-social-housing-is-matter-of-ideology-not-economics-1.2397695

In the late 1940s, when my family was housed, Ireland was still recovering from the drastic economic effects of the second World War. The average industrial wage was £5.59 a week for men and £2.97 for women. In real terms, that’s less than a third of average industrial wages in 1998 before the Celtic Tiger bubble. Fewer than a third of households in 1949 had more than four rooms to live in. More than 60 per cent of households had no piped water supply. Nearly half had no sanitary facilities – only 255,000 houses had a flush toilet.

And yet the State could build social housing.

People were badly educated – in 1950, a grand total of 4,500 students sat the Leaving Certificate exam and the number in all our universities combined was 7,900. The entire output of Irish broadcasting was seven hours of radio a day. There were just 43,000 phone lines in the State, only a third of them domestic.

And yet the State could build social housing.

The Irish economy, dominated by agriculture and food production, was a paltry thing: total exports in 1949 amounted to just £61 million. Almost all of this went to the UK as raw product – the characteristic Irish export was a live cow in the hold of a cattle boat. In order of scale, the leading Irish exports in 1949 were cattle, horses, fresh hen eggs, ale/beer/porter, chocolate crumb, dead turkeys and tinned beef. This makes tinned beef our leading manufacturing export.

And yet the State could build social housing.



Etc.

StevenToast

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

That's not what happened. The UK was one entity in the EU and it voted as one entity to leave the EU.

England didn't decide anything. You know that though.

England and wales wanted to leave the EU....Scotland and the 6 counties wanted to remain...

Thats a fact..

hatrickpatrick

IngazZagni wrote: »

SF voted against increasing property tax which effectively gave the rich a massive tax cut while those in small properties only saved the equivalent of a handful of coffees a year. Property tax is a fundamentally left wing ideology and it is needed in order for Sinn Fein to increase spending to the levels they promise. However it wasn't popular so they voted against it. Pure populism while in opposition.

They are opposed to taxes on primary residences, not property tax. Or, to make a more academic distinction, they only oppose taxation on personal property, not private property. The reason for this is that they don't see one's family home as something which should be considered "wealth", as the whole commodification of housing and the paradigm of just trading it like a bond or stock is one of the main reasons we're in this mess to begin with.

Bubbaclaus

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

That's not what happened. The UK was one entity in the EU and it voted as one entity to leave the EU.

England didn't decide anything. You know that though.

le

Every single constituency in scotland voted remain......scotland still ended up leaving,due to england voting leave :pac:

Twist it,whatever way yous want,brexit is an english decision

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

By all.means they can,deosnt bother me,the more votes and voices herd the better....


The whole referendum.is a farce anyway,should be done on a 32 county basis, ot 26 plus 6......stormont has been an utter failure after 20 years,its never going to work

Hopefully we can get rid of the English imposed county system too when United Ireland comes along. It's our once in a lifetime chance to rid ourselves of the fake and artificial boundaries they imposed on us. Personally I would have no issue with Limerick and Clare amalgamating into the old Kingdom of Thomond. Likewise it's bizarre we continue to let an Act of Parliament from Henry VIII divide Meath and Westmeath. It's clear these boundaries were designed to weaken parts of Ireland that could challenge Dublin (and therefore London) rule.

Bubbaclaus

[Deleted User] wrote: »

le

Every single constituency in scotland voted remain......scotland still ended up leaving,due to england voting leave :pac:

Twist it,whatever way yous want,brexit is an english decision

I'm not really understanding your argument though. The United Kingdom is one entity in the EU and makes its decisions as one in the EU, you think it should have had 4 separate votes? Why stop at only 4?

Wales also supported Brexit FYI.

Bubbaclaus

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Scotland voted remain and are being ignored based on results elsewhere....surely its hypocritical to support england dragging scotland out,and then argue againest the reunification vote taking place on a 32 county basis??


Deosnt seem right to me anyway

Fair enough. I can't see your 32 county reunification logic at all. A good comparison actually would be a 2nd Brexit vote in 5 years time (for 'reunionification' with the EU this time), but all the EU can vote in it also. Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?

But anyway, pointless debating. We both have our views on it and they ain't changing.

Triangle

Bowie wrote: »

Hate suggests lack of specifics. There's plenty to point to.
The Greens are ****ed, again. They were close to a split over the leadership and over going into government and over policy.

Was speaking on the blarney claim SF are responsible for the raging covid situation when the DUP is blocking SF calls for an all island approach and the DUP want laxed restrictions for Christmas.
Also the repeated willful ignorance of comparing the Dail to Stormont.

I would lose respect for any party partners with FF and until FG make major changes, same goes for them.

Only the most righteous think that stormont is like the Dail. But any person that cares about Irish people would not want a stormont situation in Dublin.

I completely agree that the situation in the North isn't SFs fault. Its the fault of polarisation imo.

But we live in a country with a 101 different views. They should all be given a voice in the Dail (which was me saying a government of all voices would be better served)
This hatred of opposition is just going to polarise people. I. E. See USA

James Brown

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Fair enough. I can't see your 32 county reunification logic at all. A good comparison actually would be a 2nd Brexit vote in 5 years time (for 'reunionification' with the EU this time), but all the EU can vote in it also. Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?

But anyway, pointless debating. We both have our views on it and they ain't changing.

The difference being our country was divided without our consent and the Irish in the occupied portion of the Irish province of ulster being treated as less than second class in the faux democracy that followed.
We are more akin to post war Germany.

rdwight

rdwight wrote: »

I think you mean wait for reunification. A united ireland will arrive in a few years now, delivered by demographics as could have been predicted in 1920 and not hastened one year by anything the IRA or SF have done in the last 100 years. In fact, their actions have just ensured that the process will be more bitter than it needed to be.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Another who thinks people should have sat quietly and obediently while being tramped on and lived in hope democracy might have occurred to a sectarian bigoted government.

No I don't think the croppies could have been expected to have sat quietly or laid down. Hindsight is wonderful, and with hindsight all the campaigns of the IRA didn't hasten re-unification by a day.

James Brown

Triangle wrote: »

Only the most righteous think that stormont is like the Dail. But any person that cares about Irish people would not want a stormont situation in Dublin.

I completely agree that the situation in the North isn't SFs fault. Its the fault of polarisation imo.

But we live in a country with a 101 different views. They should all be given a voice in the Dail (which was me saying a government of all voices would be better served)
This hatred of opposition is just going to polarise people. I. E. See USA

Again, I'm responding to the made up claim that SF are responsible for the Covid situation up north.
The poster suggested SF in the south shouldn't comment on our governments reaction to covid based on that false claim. Also there being a different model of government.

We can't have a Stormont situation because we have an equal democracy and aren't trying to appease any one demographic disproportionately, (except property investment entities ).

Bubbaclaus

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Pretty sure anyone joining the EU has to be formally voted in

Iirc we also had a referendum on nice treaty,which was essentially about letting eastern european countries join....would same treaty apply to uk rejoining?? (itll never happen btw)

Yes, so the UK would have their own vote and the EU would separately have their votes to formally accept them in. Not all one vote like the 32 county vote suggestion. My point exactly, thanks.

Bubbaclaus

Bowie wrote: »

The difference being our country was divided without our consent and the Irish in the occupied portion of the Irish province of ulster being treated as less than second class in the faux democracy that followed.
We are more akin to post war Germany.

Like a post war Germany? Ah come on now. That's just crazy talk. You surely are saying that in jest.

Everyone here also seems to be either forgetting or just don't care about the large unionist voice in the North. Whether we like it or not, their voice deserves to be heard. Both in any potential referendums and ultimately within a UI.

Bubbaclaus

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Except it is.....scotland voted remain and england dragged em out??

Kinda dont understand the logic for opposing a 32 county poll,while supporting the above and supporting EU accession treaties?

Theres no rhyme or reason to it??

EU accession treaties is a comparison to the 2 separate referendums scenario, not your one vote in the 32 suggestion. The one vote comparison is the UK and EU27 all voting in the one referendum.

I'm not understanding you at all to be honest. You are using the EU having to separately ratify a UK vote to rejoin as a comparison, but it's a comparison to the scenario you don't want?

Bubbaclaus

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Your literally opposed to a 32 county poll though?

Of course I am, given it wouldn't make sense.

Not sure why this is even being debated, it's not going to happen and isn't even Sinn Fein policy. They signed up to the 26+6 referendum approach.

Kraftwerk

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Scotland voted remain and are being ignored based on results elsewhere....surely its hypocritical to support england dragging scotland out,and then argue againest the reunification vote taking place on a 32 county basis??


Deosnt seem right to me anyway

Scotland weren't ignored. They were given the choice in a previous referendum of whether they want independence and get to choose the future of Scotland or remain part of the UK and hitch Scotlands future to that of the rest of the UK. They chose the latter.

The only reason they were in the EU to begin with was because they were part of the UK. So they weren't dragged out of it, they just never had the ability to be anything other than a small voice in the UK and for better or worse tag along with England for the ride.

Northern Ireland should get a similar choice. Do they want independence from everyone (like Scotland they're in no position for that to work). Or otherwise do they want to remain part of the UK or do they want unification. Once they decide as with Scotland they'll be a voice in a bigger picture and subject to the decisions of the whole. A separate vote would need to be had in the south as to whether we want them if they they decided they want unification.

James Brown

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Like a post war Germany? Ah come on now. That's just crazy talk. You surely are saying that in jest.

Everyone here also seems to be either forgetting or just don't care about the large unionist voice in the North. Whether we like it or not, their voice deserves to be heard. Both in any potential referendums and ultimately within a UI.

Very much so.
Certainly, it's more akin to post war Germany than anyone leaving the EU.

That's a flawed and inaccurate assumption.
Of course it does.
I think it's commendable that we support the democratic element in all this considering how partition came about and how the catholic community were treated by the authorities.