The wondrous adventures of Sinn Fein (part 2)

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What foolishness is this now...you are now trying to rewrite the constitution?...says it all.

Tell us this blanch...read the bolded bit about out constitutonal 'firm will', does it sound to you that it is referring to a border poll on physical unity? Because it does to me and any sane person.

Time you let go of this cringeworthy sledgehammering of reality. Constitutionally it is the 'firm will' of this contry to physically unite the two parts. Anyone advocating against that is partitionist by definition.

Article 2 sets out the aspiration quite clearly.

"It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland. Furthermore, the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage."

Irishness isn't confined to the island. It is the Irish Nation as distinct from the Irish territory embracing those who live elsewhere.

"It is the firm will of the Irish Nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland, in all the diversity of their identities and traditions, recognising that a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a majority of the people, democratically expressed, in both jurisdictions in the island. Until then, the laws enacted by the Parliament established by this Constitution shall have the like area and extent of application as the laws enacted by the Parliament[a] that existed immediately before the coming into operation of this Constitution."

Article 3 is more interesting and it does seem to include some ambiguity which has been a liferaft for xenophobic nationalist types to cling to. However, the first sentence sets the context - that is to unite the people who share the territory. This unity of people is in stark contrast to the explicit unity of territory from the older versions of the Constitution. The key point is that no matter what administrative arrangements there are that govern this island, people are entitled to their Irishness and also to their Britishness. As a result, administrative arrangements have a secondary meaning and a secondary imperative. Any border poll would have to follow that timeframe - unite the people first, reach consensus on a future direction, then have a border poll. You would expect as a result for any referendum at that point to have c80% in favour at least.

Unfortunately, much of the rhetoric of the old-style xenopobic nationalism runs counter-productive to these objectives. Tiocfaidh ar La celebrations, political rallies based on fake funerals, delaying victim compensation etc., these are all actions and signs that entrench divisions rather than healing them.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Article 2 sets out the aspiration quite clearly.

"It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland. Furthermore, the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage."

Irishness isn't confined to the island. It is the Irish Nation as distinct from the Irish territory embracing those who live elsewhere.

"It is the firm will of the Irish Nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland, in all the diversity of their identities and traditions, recognising that a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a majority of the people, democratically expressed, in both jurisdictions in the island. Until then, the laws enacted by the Parliament established by this Constitution shall have the like area and extent of application as the laws enacted by the Parliament[a] that existed immediately before the coming into operation of this Constitution."

Article 3 is more interesting and it does seem to include some ambiguity which has been a liferaft for xenophobic nationalist types to cling to. However, the first sentence sets the context - that is to unite the people who share the territory. This unity of people is in stark contrast to the explicit unity of territory from the older versions of the Constitution. The key point is that no matter what administrative arrangements there are that govern this island, people are entitled to their Irishness and also to their Britishness. As a result, administrative arrangements have a secondary meaning and a secondary imperative. Any border poll would have to follow that timeframe - unite the people first, reach consensus on a future direction, then have a border poll. You would expect as a result for any referendum at that point to have c80% in favour at least.

Unfortunately, much of the rhetoric of the old-style xenopobic nationalism runs counter-productive to these objectives. Tiocfaidh ar La celebrations, political rallies based on fake funerals, delaying victim compensation etc., these are all actions and signs that entrench divisions rather than healing them.

Seriously, I couldn't be bothered reading anymore of your partitionist twisting on this.

Pathetic and cringeworthy in equal measure.

FG and FF will be supporting a physical unification of the island in a border poll as per the constitution...you know and I know it.

Not onoly do you want out of what you claim to have signed up to in the GFA (like Unionists) you now also want to re-interpret the constitution. The fear is eating you away.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Seriously, I couldn't be bothered reading anymore of your partitionist twisting on this.

Pathetic and cringeworthy in equal measure.

FG and FF will be supporting a physical unification of the island in a border poll as per the constitution...you know and I know it.

Not onoly do you want out of what you claim to have signed up to in the GFA (like Unionists) you now also want to re-interpret the constitution. The fear is eating you away.

You obviously don't understand why FF have set up a shared island unit then.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/programme-for-government-new-unit-to-seek-shared-island-consensus-1.4279602


"“This unit will examine the political, social, economic and cultural considerations underpinning a future in which all traditions are mutually respected.”

That isn't about a border poll, that isn't about forcing unionists to accept a united Ireland, it is an entirely different thing, very much like the shared future that I talk about.

Caught in the past, you just don't see it.

maccored

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

SF and the IRA enjoyed no popular support during their campaign of sociopathic violence. That false narrative needs to be challenged. Hume and Mallon represented the wishes of the vast majority of Nationalists in Northern Ireland.

Sf supporters might justify child abuse, murder, kneecapping and intimidation in their own head, but trying to convince those of us who have a sense of morality isn’t ever going to work. It’s a waste of time.

the false narrative? how did the IRA survive without public support? They had plenty of it where I come from.

grayzer75

blanch152 wrote: »

You obviously don't understand why FF have set up a shared island unit then.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/programme-for-government-new-unit-to-seek-shared-island-consensus-1.4279602


"“This unit will examine the political, social, economic and cultural considerations underpinning a future in which all traditions are mutually respected.”

That isn't about a border poll, that isn't about forcing unionists to accept a united Ireland, it is an entirely different thing, very much like the shared future that I talk about.

Caught in the past, you just don't see it.

Shared island unit me bollox.

The unionists have had 100 years to make the north a shared inclusive space for the nationalist community but failed at every turn. Their inherent hatred of all things catholic and the arrogance they have showed the nationalist population over the years all came to a head when they tried to stop one side of the community having the same rights as the other.

It is about a border poll as set out in the GFA.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

You obviously don't understand why FF have set up a shared island unit then.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/programme-for-government-new-unit-to-seek-shared-island-consensus-1.4279602


"“This unit will examine the political, social, economic and cultural considerations underpinning a future in which all traditions are mutually respected.”

That isn't about a border poll, that isn't about forcing unionists to accept a united Ireland, it is an entirely different thing, very much like the shared future that I talk about.

Caught in the past, you just don't see it.

Michael indulging his partitionism and talking through the side of his mouth about inclusiveness (didn't much matter when it came to Seanad nominations of Unionists) does not change the constitution.

We have gone from the power swap not contenancing even talking about unity to now having a dedicated unit to investigate it.

They'll get there as pressure is kept up on them. And it will be FG and FF supporting unity in a border poll as per the mandate of the constitution.

Odhinn

blanch152 wrote: »

Keep living in the dreams of the past, why don't you?
.............

...sez the man still hand wringing over the long ended armed struggle.....

Odhinn

Hamsterchops wrote: »

You're refering to those "bad apples", those bent members of the security forces who colluded with the Loyalist paramilitaries.....

However, the vast majority did their best to confront the bombs, the bullets and the Molotov cocktails head on, and to stand up to and confront the terrorist threat in Northern Ireland, and that's what they did. A thankless task for the army who were really a blunt tool used to try and combat the bombers.

O the poor army. Delicate doves one and all, arriving fresh from bashing natives abroad, where they sought to make the ingrates appreciate the empire by beating, kicking and shooting them..

Odhinn

blanch152 wrote: »

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Unfortunately, much of the rhetoric of the old-style xenopobic nationalism runs counter-productive to these objectives. ....................

Heres a video clip of SF being xenophobic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkFAeruvv4s

JohnnyFlash

Odhinn wrote: »

...sez the man still hand wringing over the long ended armed struggle.....

It’s SF who bussed in hundreds of fat men with leather jackets, white shirts, and black ties to do a line of honour at the fake funeral of a psychopath who was involved in, amongst very many other things, the torture of a mentally disabled 15 year old Catholic boy. An innocent boy who was shot in the head and had the word tout written on a piece of cardboard and hung around his neck. They made his twin brother listen to his torture as well. Storey was then described as a hero by people like Mary Lou, even though it turned out that 15 year old was innocent of any sort of wrongdoing, even by the warped standards of the Provos.

SF are the party who bring everything back to celebrating perverts, serial killers, sectarians and torturers. Stuck in their grubby, nasty, nationalistic past. Like the Orange Order in many respects.

Abnormal and deeply sinister party.

Odhinn

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

...................

Abnormal and deeply sinister party.

So I've heard told. Doesn't seem like a good size of the electorate agree with that view though.

blanch152

grayzer75 wrote: »

Shared island unit me bollox.

The unionists have had 100 years to make the north a shared inclusive space for the nationalist community but failed at every turn. Their inherent hatred of all things catholic and the arrogance they have showed the nationalist population over the years all came to a head when they tried to stop one side of the community having the same rights as the other.

It is about a border poll as set out in the GFA.

The mask slips again, as the rabid foaming at the unionists comes to the fore.

The objective of the shared island unit to make this island a shared inclusive space for everyone, that may mean constitutional change, but it may not, as the notion of nationality equating territory is outdated now.

Replacing unionists at the top of the pile as it was in the 1940s and 1950s, with nationalists at the top of the pile in the 2020s acting in the same way, is the objective of many of the terrorism apologists on here, but it is not the right thing to do, and it will not win the support of the majority of people on this island.

grayzer75

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

It’s SF who bussed in hundreds of fat men with leather jackets, white shirts, and black ties to do a line of honour at the fake funeral of a psychopath who was involved in, amongst very many other things, the torture of a mentally disabled 15 year old Catholic boy. An innocent boy who was shot in the head and had the word tout written on a piece of cardboard and hung around his neck. They made his twin brother listen to his torture as well. Storey was then described as a hero by people like Mary Lou, even though it turned out that 15 year old was innocent of any sort of wrongdoing, even by the warped standards of the Provos.

SF are the party who bring everything back to celebrating perverts, serial killers, sectarians and torturers. Stuck in their grubby, nasty, nationalistic past. Like the Orange Order in many respects.

Abnormal and deeply sinister party.

Have you evidence to back up this drivel?

Ekerot

Odhinn wrote: »

So I've heard told. Doesn't seem like a good size of the electorate agree with that view though.

What The Majority Think /=/ Always Good Things.

blanch152

Odhinn wrote: »

So I've heard told. Doesn't seem like a good size of the electorate agree with that view though.

A good size of the US electorate voted for Donald Trump.

A good size of the UK electorate voted for Brexit, Johnson and Farage.

A good size of the French electorate voted for Le Pen.

Every country has its element of deeply sinister politicians disguised as populists. Ours are Sinn Fein.

Odhinn

blanch152 wrote: »

A good size of the US electorate voted for Donald Trump.

A good size of the UK electorate voted for Brexit, Johnson and Farage.

A good size of the French electorate voted for Le Pen.

Every country has its element of deeply sinister politicians disguised as populists. Ours are Sinn Fein.

Shinners should just give up the ghost and wear their capes and fangs with pride.

blanch152

grayzer75 wrote: »

Have you evidence to back up this drivel?

Which bit of his post do you doubt? Reads to me like well-established facts.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

The mask slips again, as the rabid foaming at the unionists comes to the fore.

The objective of the shared island unit to make this island a shared inclusive space for everyone, that may mean constitutional change, but it may not, as the notion of nationality equating territory is outdated now.

Replacing unionists at the top of the pile as it was in the 1940s and 1950s, with nationalists at the top of the pile in the 2020s acting in the same way, is the objective of many of the terrorism apologists on here, but it is not the right thing to do, and it will not win the support of the majority of people on this island.

Seems to be the partitionists that have fetishes and fantasies about a nationalist bigoted and sectarian state. You would probably stand idly by again if it did happen.

blanch152

Odhinn wrote: »

Shinners should just give up the ghost and wear their capes and fangs with pride.

Sackcloth and ashes with some real repentance would be my favoured garb for them.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

A good size of the US electorate voted for Donald Trump.

A good size of the UK electorate voted for Brexit, Johnson and Farage.

A good size of the French electorate voted for Le Pen.

Every country has its element of deeply sinister politicians disguised as populists. Ours are Sinn Fein.

Ah nothing like a bit of butt hurt at how you did in the election. Always funny.

grayzer75

blanch152 wrote: »

The mask slips again, as the rabid foaming at the unionists comes to the fore.

The objective of the shared island unit to make this island a shared inclusive space for everyone, that may mean constitutional change, but it may not, as the notion of nationality equating territory is outdated now.

Replacing unionists at the top of the pile as it was in the 1940s and 1950s, with nationalists at the top of the pile in the 2020s acting in the same way, is the objective of many of the terrorism apologists on here, but it is not the right thing to do, and it will not win the support of the majority of people on this island.

Jesus you post some nonsense.

Unionists will never ever accept a united Ireland no matter how much you and your westbrit buddies bend over for them.

If the majority vote for a UI and they don't like it they are quite free to plant themselves elsewhere, maybe they can leave with your mate Arlene.

A border poll is coming whether you or the rest of the FFG like it or not and we all know that FFG will promise the world for the citizens in the north not to go for it because they don't really care for the people of the six counties.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Ah nothing like a bit of butt hurt at how you did in the election. Always funny.

Not hurt at all, just worried about democracy. Across western democracy, there are many signs of a return to the early 1930s with some of the ideas such as rabid nationalism getting a new airing. From Poland to the US, including Ireland, there are some very nasty people masquerading as politicians and using populism and opposition to nefarious ends.

grayzer75

blanch152 wrote: »

Which bit of his post do you doubt? Reads to me like well-established facts.

Show us the evidence so, or is it more of the usual ****e you spout on here......

JohnnyFlash

grayzer75 wrote: »

Have you evidence to back up this drivel?

That Bobby Storey was part of the IRA ‘nutting squad’ alongside other psychopaths such as John Joe McGee and Freddie Scappaticci?

Ya, I have their membership badges and a signed copy of the book they wrote about their time in it.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Not hurt at all, just worried about democracy. Across western democracy,

Just sit it out blanch and let democracy come back.

Isn't that what you propose nationalists and catholics should have done in the north...sit and wait for the British and Unionists to be democrats.

Good enough for nationalists it's good enough for you.



There is only one politician on this island pining for the thirties and fascists and he was a FGer.

grayzer75

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

That Bobby Storey was part of the IRA ‘nutting squad’ alongside other psychopaths such as John Joe McGee and Freddie Scappaticci?

Ya, I have their membership badges and a signed copy of the book they wrote about their time in it.

Show us all the evidence of the bussed in men in leather jackets and the rest of your waffle in your post.

maccored

blanch152 wrote: »

Which bit of his post do you doubt? Reads to me like well-established facts.

maybe you can provide the backup then?

JohnnyFlash

grayzer75 wrote: »

Show us all the evidence of the bussed in men in leather jackets and the rest of your waffle in your post.

You want me to repost pictures of Storey’s funeral, Facebook posts of fat men from Tipperary, Dublin and Wexford that were driven up in buses during lockdown, and the fact that Storey wasn’t even in the coffin when they were taking selfies at his graveyard?

grayzer75

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

You want me to repost pictures of Storey’s funeral, Facebook posts of fat men from Tipperary, Dublin and Wexford that were driven up in buses during lockdown, and the fact that Storey wasn’t even in the coffin when they were taking selfies at his graveyard?

You made a lot of claims in your post but have yet to back them up, enough said.

maccored

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

You want me to repost pictures of Storey’s funeral, Facebook posts of fat men from Tipperary, Dublin and Wexford that were driven up in buses during lockdown, and the fact that Storey wasn’t even in the coffin when they were taking selfies at his graveyard?

Nope - just your proof that SF bussed them all up would be grand. Have you a problem with fat people then too?