Manchester United Teamtalk/Transfer Rumours/Gossip 2020/21- Mod Notes OP [17/10/20]

DM_7

Match pack: https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/match/2029396--man-united-vs-leipzig/matchinfo/?iv=true

Passing: https://www.uefa.com/newsfiles/ucl/2021/2029396_tpd.pdf

Fred with 7 missed passes 87% success.
Upamecano the player with the most passes on the pitch and by some distance.

Tactical Line Up: https://www.uefa.com/newsfiles/ucl/2021/2029396_tl.pdf
RB Leipzigs move from 3 at the back did not work.

Liam O

Mitch Connor wrote: »

THe last sentence is the key bit for me (and it is the same with McTominay). To get the best out of them requires allowing them to chase and press. A number of our goals were the direct result of Fred doing this.

But that also isn't a role of a DM, at least not a sole DM (with Bruno and VDB or Pogba in a 3).

Where we see issues with Fred are (imo) when he is tasked with being the primary out ball of the cbs and the conduite into midfield. When he is facing the midfield his progressive passes are very good. But when he is recieving the ball facing his own goal, I don't think he has the awareness or speed on the ball to effectively beat the press and I think his passing can let him down in those situations too.

Fred and McT are an effective duo because they share the defensive load and their workrate allows them to get about the place, but neither are effective tempo setters collecting from the defence.

IMO we need to replace Matic, and I don't think Fred of McT have the skill sets to do so - we need to buy in, imo, and we needed to do it in the summer.

Agree fully with nearly all of this.

Though if playing 2 deep players for the foreseeable then it's not Matic that needs to be replaced as that is not his role anyway. Fred and McT have beaten some huge teams and outplayed and outworked their midfield when there as a duo. The problems come when you put in a Pogba there who isn't going to do the work that they do.

Fred and McT are exactly the kind of team oriented players that Klopp has built his midfield around. When there are 4 players as attacking as the United front 4 and then also an expectation that full backs get forward then you need someone covering counters on both wings.

I think it should be Shaw and AWB since neither are great going forward and it would add extra players through the centre contributing to the attack, allowing Pogba or VDB to play with Bruno. However, the signing of Telles means that there is an attacking output expected from the full backs so if the defensive frailties are to be addressed there will have to be 2 DMs and Fred and McT are the best options at the club right now for that. Can they be improved on? Yes. But a player like Matic who is an anchorman/inverted sweeper almost isn't the signing needed unless there's a tweak in the base formation.

Whatsisname

Whatsisname wrote: »

:pac:

https://twitter.com/NoraUtd/status/1321605172976668672?s=20

An accurate representation of the thread :P

#badpassermanfred

Sand

So far Fred has played 8 times this year, zero goals, zero assists. Last year, he played 48 times. 2 goals, 4 assists (Astana, Brugge, LASK) all in the Europa League. 18/19, he played 25 times. 1 goal. 1 assist. Both against Wolves.

Fred arrived at the club for 53 million sterling. He cost more than Bruno. For that sort of money, at a club of United's amibitions, more should be expected than him being a hard worker. He puts in a shift, and that's admirable but for the money he has been one of the poorest signings United have made in recent years.

StringerBell

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Some performance from Rashers and still only 22, it's only a few years ago that Jose was telling us he's no good and was playing him left back.

I will never understand these posts. Can someone link me to something where Jose said Rashford is no good a few years ago? Maybe I'm wrong and the statement is accurate?

StringerBell

Sand wrote: »

So far Fred has played 8 times this year, zero goals, zero assists. Last year, he played 48 times. 2 goals, 4 assists (Astana, Brugge, LASK) all in the Europa League. 18/19, he played 25 times. 1 goal. 1 assist. Both against Wolves.

Fred arrived at the club for 53 million sterling. He cost more than Bruno. For that sort of money, at a club of United's amibitions, more should be expected than him being a hard worker. He puts in a shift, and that's admirable but for the money he has been one of the poorest signings United have made in recent years.

He doesn't play in an advanced role. If you wanna look at purely offensive stats you will be disappointed.

Also, for ****s and giggles look up iniestas stats sometime for an actual attacking player a world class one at that and then think of how many goals and good moves he was actually involved in.

Stats don't tell a full story, and especially when your trying to use offensive statistics for a traditionally defensive player.

Sand

StringerBell wrote: »

Stats don't tell a full story, and especially when your trying to use offensive statistics for a traditionally defensive player.

Is he a defensive player? I understood he was a mobile, hardworking box to box player rather than a defensive midfielder. He shows up often on the edge of the box taking long range shots, which invariably end up high, wide or both.

Hes the 6th most expensive player in Man United's history and he is extremely limited. I get that people might admire his work rate, but lets not go nuts.

Weepsie

Zeek12 wrote: »

Pretty sure I read a stat recently he had over 200 misplaced passes last season. One of the highest in the PL for a midfielder.

I don't agree he's one of our best passers.

But his all round game last night was hugely effective. And his work rate and disruptive influence to opposition attacks are a huge addition to our midfield.

He's was our highest ranked passer for accuracy last year. He attempts more passes too it seems.

He was our only passer in the top 30, and one of the highest midfielders. Lots of defenders in there

For every 55 passes he misplaced 5. Just under 90%

He doesn't make spectacular passes, but even his long passing is generally more accurate than others.

Maguire (not that I want to be bringing him up) gets lauded for his passing from the back, when in reality it's not as accurate as Fred and his long passing is absolute p!as this season

beno619

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Some performance from Rashers and still only 22, it's only a few years ago that Jose was telling us he's no good and was playing him left back.

Yeah this never happened, I love Rashford but he's still the 3rd maybe 4th best finisher in the squad now that Cavani is here.

Cookiemunster

Sand wrote: »

Is he a defensive player? I understood he was a mobile, hardworking box to box player rather than a defensive midfielder. He shows up often on the edge of the box taking long range shots, which invariably end up high, wide or both.

Hes the 6th most expensive player in Man United's history and he is extremely limited. I get that people might admire his work rate, but lets not go nuts.

He was heavily involved in the build up to 4 of the 5 goals last night. Use your eyes not stats.

Weepsie

beno619 wrote: »

Yeah this never happened, I love Rashford but he's still the 3rd maybe 4th best finisher in the squad now that Cavani is here.

Agree. He sometimes have games that he looks the best player in the world, but he equally has games (Martial too) where he just doesn't look remotely like a natural finisher.

Its something that can be coached though, at least from their level. 100%. He (and again Martial) can be shown how to sometimes pass it in, take it quicker or delay it a la Ruud, or Ian Wright etc rather than just force it or go with instinct all the time.

Sand

Cookiemunster wrote: »

He was heavily involved in the build up to 4 of the 5 goals last night. Use your eyes not stats.

Using them too. The stats show people aren't imagining the very limited ability in possession. Again, for 54 million, I expect more than effort from a United midfielder. The club got done in that transfer, but that's water under the bridge at this point.

Mitch Connor

Cookiemunster wrote: »

He was heavily involved in the build up to 4 of the 5 goals last night. Use your eyes not stats.

Not via creative passing, which is the point being made. He isn't going to open up the opposition. He isn't going to be the one, generally, threading a nice through ball to a runner.

Whatsisname

UtdArena do such good tactical analysis, heres another little bit on Fred last night.

https://twitter.com/utdarena/status/1321835453880979458?s=20

dave_o_brien

Giving out about Fred because he's not Bruno is ridiculous. He played brilliantly yesterday, absolute MOTM for me and so far this season has been pretty close to our MVP.

beno619

Sand wrote: »

Using them too. The stats show people aren't imagining the very limited ability in possession. Again, for 54 million, I expect more than effort from a United midfielder. The club got done in that transfer, but that's water under the bridge at this point.

What do you think of Kante or Casimero ? Those players would go for similar money and do a certain job that doesn't produce lots of goals & assists.

Weepsie

beno619 wrote: »

What do you think of Kante or Casimero ? Those players would go for similar money and do a certain job that doesn't produce lots of goals & assists.

This, he recycles possession and helps set a tempo. He is not the one to open defences, but he gets it, and gets it to a player who will while other players can move into better position.

Lucas Hood

De gea would want to get his finger out. One of the highest paid players in the team and he's no goals or assists since he joined.

DM_7

With Fred and McT doing so well it is great.

Ultimately they could be added to but I would never worry to see them (or one with Matic) playing together.

Ideally United would go get and ahead of Matic's age and get a Ruben Neves to add that extra bit of quality on the ball or Ndidi for the defensive qualities to add to McT and Fred.

Sand

beno619 wrote: »

What do you think of Kante or Casimero ? Those players would go for similar money and do a certain job that doesn't produce lots of goals & assists.

Fred's still awful value for money in that Chelsea got Kante (a genuine defensive midfielder) for 32 million, including PL tax. United paid an extra 22 million for Fred the following season.

beno619

Sand wrote: »

Fred's still awful value for money in that Chelsea got Kante (a genuine defensive midfielder) for 32 million, including PL tax. United paid an extra 22 million for Fred the following season.

Yeah I don't necessarily disagree on that, but you were using goals and assists to put down Fred when that isn't his game just like Kante or Casimero.

Sand

beno619 wrote: »

Yeah I don't necessarily disagree on that, but you were using goals and assists to put down Fred when that isn't his game just like Kante or Casimero.

Kante, even now he's getting on a bit, scored as many goals last season in 28 games as Fred has in his entire 81 game career at United.

Fred, and McT beside him, are grand as in you know exactly what you're going to get. Hardworking, mobile midfielders who will keep running until they drop. Great. But a club with United's ambitions should be able to upgrade on both.

Weepsie

Sand wrote: »

Kante, even now he's getting on a bit, scored as many goals last season in 28 games as Fred has in his entire 81 game career at United.

Fred, and McT beside him, are grand as in you know exactly what you're going to get. Hardworking, mobile midfielders who will keep running until they drop. Great. But United with United's ambitions should be able to upgrade on both.

Kante last season and previous was playing in a more advanced role though, that brought more goals but missed out on what he is best at in that holding role.

El Gato De Negocios

Sand wrote: »

Kante, even now he's getting on a bit, scored as many goals last season in 28 games as Fred has in his entire 81 game career at United.

Fred, and McT beside him, are grand as in you know exactly what you're going to get. Hardworking, mobile midfielders who will keep running until they drop. Great. But a club with United's ambitions should be able to upgrade on both.

There are much more pressing deficiencies in the squad than Fred and McT.

Sand

El Gato De Negocios wrote: »

There are much more pressing deficiencies in the squad than Fred and McT.

I agree to some extent. I'm not looking to run down Fred as the worst player to ever lace boots, but people aren't imagining it when they note how limited he is in possession. We desperately needed a genuine defensive midfielder during the summer and we didn't get one. That isnt Fred's fault.

Mitch Connor

Sand wrote: »

Fred's still awful value for money in that Chelsea got Kante (a genuine defensive midfielder) for 32 million, including PL tax. United paid an extra 22 million for Fred the following season.

They got him for his release clause. So no "PL tax".

Sand

Sand wrote: »

I agree to some extent. I'm not looking to run down Fred as the worst player to ever lace boots, but people aren't imagining it when they note how limited he is in possession. We desperately needed a genuine defensive midfielder during the summer and we didn't get one. That isnt Fred's fault.

Its hard to know what yiu want or even mean tbh. Fred is a DM and is as good if. Not better then Kante passing, although Kante is a better dribbler.

Fred has taken corners, free kicks at his time at. United he is technically a very good player also as being a DM.

Again he has faults but people are just putting stuff on him which isn't true

Liam O

Sand wrote: »

I agree to some extent. I'm not looking to run down Fred as the worst player to ever lace boots, but people aren't imagining it when they note how limited he is in possession. We desperately needed a genuine defensive midfielder during the summer and we didn't get one. That isnt Fred's fault.

How many goals do you reckon this genuine defensive midfielder should score?

Man with broke phone

Fred and McT stop us from having an extra attacker, its been that way since ,iirc gibson and scneiderlinn,

Every manager since ferguson has found that to be the case. Carrick had a forward pass. I think he was the last sitting midfielder that did and he had Fletchers legs beside him.

If the attack stays coherent we can look solid and a threat and go toe to toe with anybody with Fred and McT.

Against a defensive side happy with a draw will be another test and its where we will wish we an extra x factor player instead of one of them.

The problem is we are too fragile on the counter without them.

Lord TSC

Kante was a ****ing steal, and not in retrospect. Chelsea robbed them blind because of the release clause. It's pointless to try and compare his fee with other midfielders, because without the clause, he'd probably have been round the 80m mark easily.

Backstreet Moyes

After a man of the match performance and an involvement in 4 goals last night I thought it would be more likely for an alien invasion than to find someone moaning about Fred

Why does or should anyone on here give a damn what a player cost or what their wages are.

What they cost should bear no relevance to their value to the team or squad.

Every team and squad needs players with different qualities and attributes that they excel at while being proficient in others.

fergiesfolly

Just saw on BBC site that Telles has tested positive for Covid-19.

fergiesfolly

fergiesfolly wrote: »

Just saw on BBC site thatTelles tested positive for Covid-19.

Ole told us that after the match last night.

Backstreet Moyes

Fred is just a pest he doesnt stop running and closing down and is a great asset in open games

Against weaker teams who sit back I would prefer to see VDB

What about Pogba last night he put in alot of effort I dont know why he cant do it every game

Nalz

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why does or should anyone on here give a damn what a player cost or what their wages are.

What they cost should bear no relevance to their value to the team or squad.

Every team and squad needs players with different qualities and attributes that they excel at while being proficient in others.

people like to contrast and compare

PARlance

fergiesfolly wrote: »

Just saw on BBC site that Telles has tested positive for Covid-19.

Telles something we don't know!



I'll leave.

StringerBell

Sand wrote: »

Fred's still awful value for money in that Chelsea got Kante (a genuine defensive midfielder) for 32 million, including PL tax. United paid an extra 22 million for Fred the following season.

Kante is not a genuine defensive midfielder, I was going to leave it after the last response but I just have to interject here. That is a disservice to Kante and kinda a further indication that you don't really know what your talking about tbh, no offence intended.

Nalz

PARlance wrote: »

Telles something we don't know!



I'll leave.

Alex you away with that one

Weepsie

Sand wrote: »

I agree to some extent. I'm not looking to run down Fred as the worst player to ever lace boots, but people aren't imagining it when they note how limited he is in possession. We desperately needed a genuine defensive midfielder during the summer and we didn't get one. That isnt Fred's fault.

They are imagining it when they say he gives away the ball too easily when that's clearly not the case. The times he does give it away probably stand out, but he's attempting more passes than anyone outside the back 4 and doing it with better accuracy and completions.

NDidi is the DM I'd want, but he's worse on the ball than Fred. He's better at breaking up play though which gives players around him more time on the ball.

Fred is quite good at what he does. His job seems to be to plug gaps, be available for passes and hurry opposition players. You know what you get with hi , and he's consistent which in a squad of woeful inconsistencies is important.

All_in_Flynn

Diamond or 3 at the back is the way we need to go now. Gets most of our better players on the pitch and into positions they are comfortable in. Squad is full of talent, just need to get a system now and get some momentum.

I thought Pogba and Fred were the two best players on the pitch last night. Its performances like that from Fred that shows you why the likes of Pep were after him. He's excellent at cutting passing lanes and has a good engine. Pogba got us out of the press numerous times last night. It's a massive part of wearing teams like Leipzig down. He put in a big shift last night. More of the same please.

Fred was arguably MOTM against PSG

Crazy criticisms because people are so stubborn and continue to try and hammer home the notion he's ****e because he was a fall guy for the Jose / Ole transition and it's still lingered on to this day.

People forget he was also arguably our player of the season last season before Bruno arrived.

Would be a huge mistake letting him go to any rival. I remember reading people wanted him sold.

Man with broke phone

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Fred was arguably MOTM against PSG

Crazy criticisms because people are so stubborn and continue to try and hammer home the notion he's ****e because he was a fall guy for the Jose / Ole transition and it's still lingered on to this day.

People forget he was also arguably our player of the season last season before Bruno arrived.

Would be a huge mistake letting him go to any rival. I remember reading people wanted him sold.

Fred was never nearly our player of the season. Nearly man of the match once or twice maybe.

Im happy with him and Mct when we need them though.

beno619

I voted for Fred for POTY anyway. Obviously a matter of personal opinion but he was rightfully in the conversation.

pjohnson

Ta fcuk with Kante being a steal going from Leicester to Chelsea what about the Leicester scout found him AND Mahrez in lower French leagues. That guy is a beast.

PARlance

Dalot on the scoresheet for Milan.

duffman13

PARlance wrote: »

Dalot on the scoresheet for Milan.

A goal and an assist, playing left back! Good to see him doing well

Rock77

Just on Fred,

In last nights game every player in the starting 11 bar Shaw had a better pass completion % than Fred.

Fred gave the ball away more times than any other midfielder last season.

Having said that Maguire was the only player last season to win the ball back more than Fred.

The problem I have with these stats is that, as people have rightly argued here, Fred is not a creator, or a scorer. He is expected to keep it simple and keep us moving. Yet he gives the ball away a lot, way more than a non creative midfielder should.

Also, his mistakes really stand out because he gives it away in a very dangerous area at least once per game. He also gives away easy possession sometimes.

Having said all that, his energy, tackling and interceptions have been brilliant lately. He certainly is improving and has been brilliant in a few games.

But seriously lads, don’t be saying people think he gives the ball away but he doesn’t because he most certainly does, more than any other midfielder.

Mantis Toboggan

Fred is so underated he's become overrated.

Liam O

Who would have thought that playing against a high press system that the player on front of the centre backs would be under more pressure than some others? I've been critical of his simple passing in the past but he played some nice forward passes through the middle yesterday. People looking for issues with a player after a 5-0 win and he was literally involved in 4 goals is Fellaini levels of nonsense scapegoating.