Police shootings, vigilante shootings, and Black Lives Matter

Foxtrol

Biafranlivemat wrote: »

The line "Looks like the loser parade eventually got the trouble they went looking for yesterday."
If you don't mind, I'll keep that line, I am sure I can use it in the future.;)

I don't see when you'll be able to use it again unless Trump keeps grifting to bleed every last cent out of his supporters and they gather again.

There is a big difference between protesting on policy, like the Women's March or BLM or on the right Gun Rights or Pro-Life, and marching to claim you didn't lose an election when it is obvious to the world that you lost. It is embarrassing.

Mic 1972

Biafranlivemat wrote: »

It is worst than that. When people, don't agree 100% with the so called "peaceful mob" they are identified by the people of "love and Tolerance" as Hitler or Nazis etc

I hope people in Europe open their eyes before it's too late.
The US have basically a woke leader in the white house as vice president, things can only get worse for them

Mic 1972

Foxtrol wrote: »

What does 'woke culture' has to do with anything? It is clear that there were gangs on both extremes walking the streets of DC doing exactly what you claim.

Here are a group of proud boys gathered beside the washington monument chanting the name of a guy who travelled with a gun breaking curfew and killed/murdered two people while claiming to be acting in 'defense' of his own group.

https://twitter.com/girlsreallyrule/status/1327997638957031434?s=20

The woke culture has to de with EVERYTHING that is happening in the US right now

Foxtrol

Mic 1972 wrote: »

The woke culture has to de with EVERYTHING that is happening in the US right now

So it is the fault of 'woke culture' that white supremacist gangs are marching on the streets?

Brian?

Foxtrol wrote: »

So it is the fault of 'woke culture' that white supremacist gangs are marching on the streets?

Apparently it’s our fault for being too tolerant and these groups are only a reaction to us treating people with common decency.

nullzero

Brian? wrote: »

Apparently it’s our fault for being too tolerant and these groups are only a reaction to us treating people with common decency.

What a load of nonsense.

Both sides of this divide are rife with anti social behaviour, neither can claim any moral superiority in light of their actions.

The reasonable majority are stuck in the middle despairing at the polarisation of political discourse over the last half decade or so.

Western society has descended into acceptance of the fringes of socio political discourse taking centre stage. We see it in this country on a smaller scale, the lunatics in the national party have a rally (usually a handful of people on kildare Street) and the Antifa idiots turn up to turn it into a supposedly newsworthy event by throwing things around like spoilt children.

Any criticism of BLM, Antifa or any associated groups is automatically deemed to be coming from a place of deep rooted racism.

The fact is the emperor has no clothes. If the mob don't want to accept that it still remains as an undeniable fact.

I was told recently that I'm a Trump supporter because I wasn't toeing the line on the election thread. I can't stand Trump and when I challenged the poster who said that to show me once even saying anything remotely positive about Trump I got no reply, they got innumerable thanks for making that false claim. Mob mentality at work.

It is possible to be critical of BLM and still be appalled by racism. The two aren't mutually exclusive. And the same goes for any number of issues, but once you aren't X you must be Y according to the consensus of "left leaning" posters on this site.

The complete inability to even conceive of a more complex opinion of events is seemingly unconscionable to a great number of these people which is seriously worrying because it is becoming so prevalent in society at large, uninformed or partially informed people making rash judgements on people who are merely making observations about the reality of a given situation, and you invoke the idea of common decency without so much as the tiniest amount of irony.

V8 Interceptor

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Showing solidarity to people that are denied basic human compassion.

I think that's worth marching for. Especially with the likes of Gemma O'Doherty and her ilk/followers trying to stoke racism and hate in this country.

But people die everyday everywhere. Why fix on one man in the USA, one of the freest human rights respecting Countries in the World? There are black people literally in cages in Libya for example.

Regarding your second point you seem to be saying that black people in Ireland are somehow at risk of being treated badly by the authorities. Have you any evidence to support this?

V8 Interceptor

Foxtrol wrote: »

So it is the fault of 'woke culture' that white supremacist gangs are marching on the streets?

In a way, yes (although having a black Hispanic as your leader seems like the weirdest white supremacist organisation in history). Wokery went totally insane despite only being a (very loud) small minority of people and pissed off the silent majority. And when a pendulum swings too far one way, inevitably it gives rise to the loonies on the other side.

Did they think their shenanigans wouldn't have any consequences in the Real World outside of their safe spaces?

Mic 1972

Foxtrol wrote: »

So it is the fault of 'woke culture' that white supremacist gangs are marching on the streets?

I'm afraid yes.
Lack of consideration for potential consequences of spreading hate against white people is a typical trait of the woke culture.
BLM is in fact giving strength to white supremacy movements and it's damaging the reputation of black people in a way that will requires years to clear

Carfacemandog

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

But people die everyday everywhere. Why fix on one man in the USA, one of the freest human rights respecting Countries in the World? There are black people literally in cages in Libya for example.

There are children literally in cages in Texas too, having been ripped away from their parents and rammed into these in high concentration.

Foxtrol

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

In a way, yes (although having a black Hispanic as your leader seems like the weirdest white supremacist organisation in history).

Wokery went totally insane despite only being a (very loud) small minority of people and pissed off the silent majority. And when a pendulum swings too far one way, inevitably it gives rise to the loonies on the other side.

Did they think their shenanigans wouldn't have any consequences in the Real World outside of their safe spaces?

Mic 1972 wrote: »

I'm afraid yes.
Lack of consideration for potential consequences of spreading hate against white people is a typical trait of the woke culture.
BLM is in fact giving strength to white supremacy movements and it's damaging the reputation of black people in a way that will requires years to clear

Both posts sound like the same mindset you hear from domestic abusers and the nonsense you get from the 'Anti-Anti Trump' people. They know what they're doing is wrong but when confronted will always find someone else to blame for their actions and make themselves out to be the real victims.

These groups aren't a backlash from 'hate against white people', as similar white supremacist ideas and gangs have been there since the early days that the US was first colonized by Europeans. Blaming 'wokeness' is just their latest excuse for it and you have to be incredibly naive to believe it and even worse to regurgitate it.

Retr0gamer

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

But people die everyday everywhere. Why fix on one man in the USA, one of the freest human rights respecting Countries in the World? There are black people literally in cages in Libya for example.

Regarding your second point you seem to be saying that black people in Ireland are somehow at risk of being treated badly by the authorities. Have you any evidence to support this?

Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because situations are worse in the word doesn't mean you can ignore situations that are wrong elsewhere in the world. So stop with the whataboutery. This wasn't just one man either, it was about what it represented and it ended up being symbolic of the racism suffered by people around the globe and not just in the US (with documented and proven systemic racism despite being in your opinion of of the freest human rights respecting nations).

And yes it's a risk that racism could kickoff big time in Ireland. I'm from a town with a massive immigrant population and seen the racism from the locals first hand and how every minor incident is blamed on 'da imgrants'. And you've gemma herself going into halal butchers harassing then looking for pork, a woman with a huge following of other racist morons.

nullzero

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because situations are worse in the word doesn't mean you can ignore situations that are wrong elsewhere in the world. So stop with the whataboutery. This wasn't just one man either, it was about what it represented and it ended up being symbolic of the racism suffered by people around the globe and not just in the US (with documented and proven systemic racism despite being in your opinion of of the freest human rights respecting nations).

And yes it's a risk that racism could kickoff big time in Ireland. I'm from a town with a massive immigrant population and seen the racism from the locals first hand and how every minor incident is blamed on 'da imgrants'. And you've gemma herself going into halal butchers harassing then looking for pork, a woman with a huge following of other racist morons.

Gemma O'Doherty received 1,614 votes (1.97%)in in her constituency of Fingal in this years election.

The National Party received 4,773 votes (0.2%)nationally.

A total of 2,183,489 valid votes were cast in the election.

Now call me old fashioned, but your anecdotal evidence of observed racism in whatever town it is you live in doesn't seem to be something that is reflected in the voting patterns of the Irish electorate.

It seems to me that some posters here would quite like there to be an entrenched hard right in this country so they could say "look I told you so".

Nobody with any common sense could possibly take your pronouncements of impending racially motivated ultra right wing coup of Ireland seriously.

Another nonsensical alarmist post garnering thanks from the usual quarters. Birds of a feather.

You can it seems prove anything with facts.

V8 Interceptor

Carfacemandog wrote: »

There are children literally in cages in Texas too, having been ripped away from their parents and rammed into these in high concentration.

Thanks first to their parents and 2nd to President Obama.

V8 Interceptor

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because situations are worse in the word doesn't mean you can ignore situations that are wrong elsewhere in the world. So stop with the whataboutery. This wasn't just one man either, it was about what it represented and it ended up being symbolic of the racism suffered by people around the globe and not just in the US (with documented and proven systemic racism despite being in your opinion of of the freest human rights respecting nations).

But black people probably have it better in the USA than anywhere else. You couldn't have picked a freer more democratic part of the Globe if you tried.

It sounds like a Doctor focusing on an ingrown toenail while the patient is hemorrhaging from the brain.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

And yes it's a risk that racism could kickoff big time in Ireland. I'm from a town with a massive immigrant population and seen the racism from the locals first hand and how every minor incident is blamed on 'da imgrants'. And you've gemma herself going into halal butchers harassing then looking for pork, a woman with a huge following of other racist morons.

Why does your town have a massive immigrant population? Did the locals wish for this?

If there's a risk racism could kick off big time in Ireland, why did Ireland open its doors to all these other races in such large numbers?

Brian?

nullzero wrote: »

What a load of nonsense.

It was more facetious than nonsense.

Both sides of this divide are rife with anti social behaviour, neither can claim any moral superiority in light of their actions.

I disagree. Violent fascists and violent anti fascists aren’t morally equivalent, despite both being wrong for using violence. I’d happily give the moral high ground to the anti fascists, with a severe scolding for the violence obviously.

The reasonable majority are stuck in the middle despairing at the polarisation of political discourse over the last half decade or so.

I see you’ve appointed yourself spokesperson for the “reasonable middle”. That doesn’t seem reasonable to me.

Western society has descended into acceptance of the fringes of socio political discourse taking centre stage. We see it in this country on a smaller scale, the lunatics in the national party have a rally (usually a handful of people on kildare Street) and the Antifa idiots turn up to turn it into a supposedly newsworthy event by throwing things around like spoilt children.

This idea that we’ve spiralled into a more polarised political landscape is actual nonsense. 80 years ago half the world was run by fascists or communists. When I was a kid it was communists squaring off against Uber capitalists. In Britain you had actual socialists running against actual conservatives. Now every main party is a sort of beige centrist.

The difference is the fringes are now more visible thanks to increased communication. The internet has made us all hyper aware of our surroundings.

Political polarisation is as old as politics. When I was a kid it was lads painting “Red Action = missiles” or swastikas on walls. Now they can set up subreddits and tweet. Or bore people on boards.ie.

Any criticism of BLM, Antifa or any associated groups is automatically deemed to be coming from a place of deep rooted racism.

Not by me. So you can point that finger elsewhere please.

The fact is the emperor has no clothes. If the mob don't want to accept that it still remains as an undeniable fact.

I have no idea what you’re talking about. I’ve seen this cliche used a lot lately, but it baffles me here.

I was told recently that I'm a Trump supporter because I wasn't toeing the line on the election thread. I can't stand Trump and when I challenged the poster who said that to show me once even saying anything remotely positive about Trump I got no reply, they got innumerable thanks for making that false claim. Mob mentality at work.

Again, nothing to do with me and completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

It is possible to be critical of BLM and still be appalled by racism. The two aren't mutually exclusive. And the same goes for any number of issues, but once you aren't X you must be Y according to the consensus of "left leaning" posters on this site.

Of course it is. No one is calling you racist. So I don’t see why you as saying this.

The complete inability to even conceive of a more complex opinion of events is seemingly unconscionable to a great number of these people which is seriously worrying because it is becoming so prevalent in society at large, uninformed or partially informed people making rash judgements on people who are merely making observations about the reality of a given situation, and you invoke the idea of common decency without so much as the tiniest amount of irony.

Maybe you should address these points to “these people” who upset you so much then. Not me.

Are you saying I’m not decent to you somehow? Or I have displayed a lack of decency in this debate? I’d not, I have no idea why you’re directing this at me.

V8 Interceptor

Brian? wrote: »

I disagree. Violent fascists and violent anti fascists aren’t morally equivalent, despite both being wrong for using violence. I’d happily give the moral high ground to the anti fascists, with a severe scolding for the violence obviously.

Just because a group calls themselves anti fascist doesn't make them so. In my view Antifa are the most fascist group I've seen, certainly in Ireland, in a long long time. They are thugs who want to decide who gets to say what in a free Country. Most of them are middle class muppets out of college who are still pissing about on their Parents dime with not a commonsense brain cell between them.

In short they are a scourge.

nullzero

Brian? wrote: »

It was more facetious than nonsense.



I disagree. Violent fascists and violent anti fascists aren’t morally equivalent, despite both being wrong for using violence. I’d happily give the moral high ground to the anti fascists, with a severe scolding for the violence obviously.



I see you’ve appointed yourself spokesperson for the “reasonable middle”. That doesn’t seem reasonable to me.



This idea that we’ve spiralled into a more polarised political landscape is actual nonsense. 80 years ago half the world was run by fascists or communists. When I was a kid it was communists squaring off against Uber capitalists. In Britain you had actual socialists running against actual conservatives. Now every main party is a sort of beige centrist.

The difference is the fringes are now more visible thanks to increased communication. The internet has made us all hyper aware of our surroundings.

Political polarisation is as old as politics. When I was a kid it was lads painting “Red Action = missiles” or swastikas on walls. Now they can set up subreddits and tweet. Or bore people on boards.ie.



Not by me. So you can point that finger elsewhere please.



I have no idea what you’re talking about. I’ve seen this cliche used a lot lately, but it baffles me here.



Again, nothing to do with me and completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.



Of course it is. No one is calling you racist. So I don’t see why you as saying this.



Maybe you should address these points to “these people” who upset you so much then. Not me.

Are you saying I’m not decent to you somehow? Or I have displayed a lack of decency in this debate? I’d not, I have no idea why you’re directing this at me.

I addressed your post and then spoke about the views held by those who tend to be on the same side of the overarching socio political argument that you appear to be on. Perhaps I should have drawn attention to where I stopped addressing you personally, although I felt it was reasonably obvious.

If you wish to award the moral high ground to the anti fascist groups that's up to you. A lot of them tend to espouse radical far left ideologies which in tandem with fascism killed an awful lot of people over the last century, in point of fact, communism killed an awful lot more people than fascism even if the overt racism of the fascist ideology is less palatable.

Your point about increased communication leading to a situation in which people are "hyper aware" of these type of topics, has merit but it isn't the only factor at play, and if it were it still has the same result being played out in society.

The rhetoric pushed on this site about the danger posed by far right groups in this country for instance is something that needs to be examined properly, as I outlined earlier, these groups are fringe and have no popular support, in fact the only way they make the news here is when Antifa show up to throw things at them. If antifas goal is to see these groups disappear all they need to is not bother turning up at any of their rallies.

I haven't appointed myself spokesperson for anything or anybody. I simply reside on neither side of this debate and find the people on the extremes to be ridiculous.

Brian?

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

Just because a group calls themselves anti fascist doesn't make them so. In my view Antifa are the most fascist group I've seen, certainly in Ireland, in a long long time. They are thugs who want to decide who gets to say what in a free Country. Most of them are middle class muppets out of college who are still pissing about on their Parents dime with not a commonsense brain cell between them.

In short they are a scourge.

In your view Antifa are more fascist than actual fascists. I’m perfectly ok with debating the rights and wrongs of how they conduct themselves; but this is flat out ridiculous.

It’s a talking point I’ve heard parroted across this site, it let’s actual fascists off the hook.

Brian?

nullzero wrote: »

I addressed your post and then spoke about the views held by those who tend to be on the same side of the overarching socio political argument that you appear to be on. Perhaps I should have drawn attention to where I stopped addressing you personally, although I felt it was reasonably obvious.

You addressed my point by saying it was nonsense. Then went on a rant, that had nothing to do with with me. “The Left” isn’t a homogenous group and most aren’t extremist in any way. We don’t all hold the same views, so your points really don’t hold up.

If you wish to award the moral high ground to the anti fascist groups that's up to you. A lot of them tend to espouse radical far left ideologies which in tandem with fascism killed an awful lot of people over the last century, in point of fact, communism killed an awful lot more people than fascism even if the overt racism of the fascist ideology is less palatable.

Let’s keep this on point eh, I notice you like to drag the debate where you think you can score points. I will always be more favourable or anti fascists than fascists. In this duality, the anti fascists have the moral high ground. That doesn’t mean I place them on a pedestal and say they do no wrong and are 100% right. I disagree with the way they conduct themselves and with some of their ideologies, which are a mixed bag.

Your point about increased communication leading to a situation in which people are "hyper aware" of these type of topics, has merit but it isn't the only factor at play, and if it were it still has the same result being played out in society.

That was half my point. The other half was that it’s always been this way.

The rhetoric pushed on this site about the danger posed by far right groups in this country for instance is something that needs to be examined properly, as I outlined earlier, these groups are fringe and have no popular support, in fact the only way they make the news here is when Antifa show up to throw things at them. If antifas goal is to see these groups disappear all they need to is not bother turning up at any of their rallies.

I haven't appointed myself spokesperson for anything or anybody. I simply reside on neither side of this debate and find the people on the extremes to be ridiculous.

You reside on one side of this debate quite clearly. You have spent the last number of pages of this thread arguing that BLM have nothing to protest about. That’s not taking the middle ground.

Retr0gamer

nullzero wrote: »

Gemma O'Doherty received 1,614 votes (1.97%)in in her constituency of Fingal in this years election.

The National Party received 4,773 votes (0.2%)nationally.

A total of 2,183,489 valid votes were cast in the election.

Now call me old fashioned, but your anecdotal evidence of observed racism in whatever town it is you live in doesn't seem to be something that is reflected in the voting patterns of the Irish electorate.

It seems to me that some posters here would quite like there to be an entrenched hard right in this country so they could say "look I told you so".

Nobody with any common sense could possibly take your pronouncements of impending racially motivated ultra right wing coup of Ireland seriously.

Another nonsensical alarmist post garnering thanks from the usual quarters. Birds of a feather.

You can it seems prove anything with facts.

You can also use facts to construct a strawman argument. I never said there was an impending racially motivated ultra right wing coup of Ireland, I just said there was a risk of the rise of racism.

And yes my evidence is anecdotal but I do have experience living in the fastest growing town in Ireland with a large amount of immigrants due to a refuge center nearby. The majority of them are lovely people but the stuff you hear people say about them and even from the mouths of some councilors just isn't on.

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

But black people probably have it better in the USA than anywhere else. You couldn't have picked a freer more democratic part of the Globe if you tried.

It sounds like a Doctor focusing on an ingrown toenail while the patient is hemorrhaging from the brain.

If there's a risk racism could kick off big time in Ireland, why did Ireland open its doors to all these other races in such large numbers?

Last time I checked the US wasn't one of the freest most democratic places in the world. It's ranked as a flawed democracy and has major racism issues with the likes of voter suppression and gerrymandering and a massive racial economic divide.

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

Why does your town have a massive immigrant population? Did the locals wish for this?

They are refuges, and like other countries since World War 2 we have a duty to help out displaced people.

Also racism doesn't come from immigration, it's entirely a man made problem that comes from bigotry and ignorance.

Retr0gamer

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

Just because a group calls themselves anti fascist doesn't make them so. In my view Antifa are the most fascist group I've seen, certainly in Ireland, in a long long time. They are thugs who want to decide who gets to say what in a free Country. Most of them are middle class muppets out of college who are still pissing about on their Parents dime with not a commonsense brain cell between them.

In short they are a scourge.

Antifa aren't a group or organisation. They're just a boogieman label right wingers give to trouble makers at protests to demonise the left.

Basically the most extreme left wing person can be is to want to give you free healthcare. The right wing have invited Antifa because the left have nothing that compares to the extreme right wing groups like the Proud Boys and White supremacist groups. Antifa are basically people at protests that act like dickheads that the right wing are trying to label as an organised group.

nullzero

Retr0gamer wrote: »

You can also use facts to construct a strawman argument. I never said there was an impending racially motivated ultra right wing coup of Ireland, I just said there was a risk of the rise of racism.

And yes my evidence is anecdotal but I do have experience living in the fastest growing town in Ireland with a large amount of immigrants due to a refuge center nearby. The majority of them are lovely people but the stuff you hear people say about them and even from the mouths of some councilors just isn't on.

There clearly isn't a risk of "the rise of racism" in Ireland, the factual evidence I provided demonstrates that.
You can talk about strawman arguments all you like but you're the one who said and I quote; "it's a risk that racism could kickoff big time in Ireland". What exactly constitutes "big time" in your mind?

To me that term implies that Ireland is likely to become a nation that embraces ultra right wing racist ideology and elects a political entity that reflects such a belief system.

That's the problem with making asinine statements which are easily dismantled by facts and then invoking the notion of the person doing so is actually constructing a strawman when your own words allow for such an interpretation.

Your evidence as you rightly pointed out is anecdotal. I'm sure there's racist idiots in your town but they represent a tiny minority nationally.

The problem for you is that you haven't provided any actual proof to back up your assertion and when you were presented with factual evidence that disproved your theory you started bleating about a strawman argument before taking the time to proper evaluate your own post and how what you said allowed for a broad interpretation.

nullzero

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Basically the most extreme left wing person can be is to want to give you free healthcare.

From a cursory Google search...

"In 2017, Professor Stephen Kotkin wrote in The Wall Street Journal that communism killed at least 65 million people between 1917 and 2017: "Though communism has killed huge numbers of people intentionally, even more of its victims have died from starvation as a result of its cruel projects of social engineering."

Facts are a cruel mistress it would appear.

nullzero

Brian? wrote: »

You addressed my point by saying it was nonsense. Then went on a rant, that had nothing to do with with me. “The Left” isn’t a homogenous group and most aren’t extremist in any way. We don’t all hold the same views, so your points really don’t hold up.



Let’s keep this on point eh, I notice you like to drag the debate where you think you can score points. I will always be more favourable or anti fascists than fascists. In this duality, the anti fascists have the moral high ground. That doesn’t mean I place them on a pedestal and say they do no wrong and are 100% right. I disagree with the way they conduct themselves and with some of their ideologies, which are a mixed bag.



That was half my point. The other half was that it’s always been this way.



You reside on one side of this debate quite clearly. You have spent the last number of pages of this thread arguing that BLM have nothing to protest about. That’s not taking the middle ground.

Here's what you originally posted... "Quote: Foxtrol
So it is the fault of 'woke culture' that white supremacist gangs are marching on the streets?


Apparently it’s our fault for being too tolerant and these groups are only a reaction to us treating people with common decency."

Let's look at why this is nonsense in a little more detail. You are asserting that white supremacist groups only exist because of the existence of BLM etc. That is nonsense as white supremacist groups existed long before BLM arrived on the scene.

You also asserted that white supremacist groups are reacting to "us treating people with common decency."
In light of the violence and anti social behaviour associated with BLM protests this quote is demonstrably nonsensical.
My point was that both sides are involved in wrong doing. To you that puts me "on one side of this debate quite clearly", which in an act of dubiously admirable consistency is also nonsense.

If you think that taking issue with BLM is equal to not being concerned about real issues affecting people of colour that's just demonstrating everything I've already outlined.

I've already explained that I both addressed you and spoke about other issues in one post. If this is something you feel isn't clear enough and that the post in question isn't written either clearly or fairly, then report it. I've already offered you clarification, if that isn't sufficient report the post and stop discussing something that has been explained to you.

As for this; " I notice you like to drag the debate where you think you can score points".
Are you seriously saying this?
Everybody directs debate into places that they can benefit from. You've spent a reasonable amount of time trying to make me out to be some right wing loon, something that has no basis in fact but you are happy to indulge in saying. The hypocrisy of this statement is mind boggling.

Brian?

nullzero wrote: »

Here's what you originally posted... "Quote: Foxtrol
So it is the fault of 'woke culture' that white supremacist gangs are marching on the streets?


Apparently it’s our fault for being too tolerant and these groups are only a reaction to us treating people with common decency."

Let's look at why this is nonsense in a little more detail. You are asserting that white supremacist groups only exist because of the existence of BLM etc. That is nonsense as white supremacist groups existed long before BLM arrived on the scene.

You also asserted that white supremacist groups are reacting to "us treating people with common decency."
In light of the violence and anti social behaviour associated with BLM protests this quote is demonstrably nonsensical.
My point was that both sides are involved in wrong doing. To you that puts me "on one side of this debate quite clearly", which in an act of dubiously admirable consistency is also nonsense.

I didn't assert any such thing. It was sarcasm, I thought that was blindingly obvious.

If you think that taking issue with BLM is equal to not being concerned about real issues affecting people of colour that's just demonstrating everything I've already outlined.

I've already explained that I both addressed you and spoke about other issues in one post. If this is something you feel isn't clear enough and that the post in question isn't written either clearly or fairly, then report it. I've already offered you clarification, if that isn't sufficient report the post and stop discussing something that has been explained to you.

As for this; " I notice you like to drag the debate where you think you can score points".
Are you seriously saying this?
Everybody directs debate into places that they can benefit from. You've spent a reasonable amount of time trying to make me out to be some right wing loon, something that has no basis in fact but you are happy to indulge in saying. The hypocrisy of this statement is mind boggling.

Honestly you seem to be debating points I've never made more than what I actually post.

I have spent zero time making you out to be a right wing loon. Can you quote where I've done this? I don't think you're any kind of loon. But I get the feeling you have a different opinion about me. As near as I can figure out you're debating some sort of irrational left wing bogeyman, of which I am the avatar. I am an extremist, but not in the way you think.

Everybody doesn't drag debates off topic to score points. Most people actually engage on what's being said and not what they imagine has been posted.

Retr0gamer

nullzero wrote: »

There clearly isn't a risk of "the rise of racism" in Ireland, the factual evidence I provided demonstrates that.
You can talk about strawman arguments all you like but you're the one who said and I quote; "it's a risk that racism could kickoff big time in Ireland". What exactly constitutes "big time" in your mind?

To me that term implies that Ireland is likely to become a nation that embraces ultra right wing racist ideology and elects a political entity that reflects such a belief system.

That's the problem with making asinine statements which are easily dismantled by facts and then invoking the notion of the person doing so is actually constructing a strawman when your own words allow for such an interpretation.

Your evidence as you rightly pointed out is anecdotal. I'm sure there's racist idiots in your town but they represent a tiny minority nationally.

The problem for you is that you haven't provided any actual proof to back up your assertion and when you were presented with factual evidence that disproved your theory you started bleating about a strawman argument before taking the time to proper evaluate your own post and how what you said allowed for a broad interpretation.

Again I'm not presenting facts. I'm making a prediction of the future based on what I've seen. Nobody could have predicted the rise of the right wing in the US 15 years ago. Same thing with brexit. I said there was a risk. It's not a sure thing and how can I present evidence when it's a prediction. There's a right wing swing happening at the moment as seen in the US and the rose of the Tory's and the likes of le pen. It's more I'm afraid that this could happen in Ireland even if it seems unlikely.

It's a prediction. You can't present facts that it won't happen unless you have a time machine.

nullzero wrote: »

From a cursory Google search...

"In 2017, Professor Stephen Kotkin wrote in The Wall Street Journal that communism killed at least 65 million people between 1917 and 2017: "Though communism has killed huge numbers of people intentionally, even more of its victims have died from starvation as a result of its cruel projects of social engineering."

Facts are a cruel mistress it would appear.

Equating communism to what the left wing actually is protesting at the moment is utterly ridiculous. Nobody wants communism and extreme forms of communism are communist in name only. So called communist countries are right wing authoritarian governments.

Facts can be a cruel mistress indeed but they can also be twisted to support absolute fallacies like this.

nullzero

Brian? wrote: »

I did, so what? They don't have a lot of support right now, but the potential is there as can be seen on......



No. I'm saying a lot of abhorrent views are causally spouted and accepted on there. It's worrying.



Actual racism. Actual transphobia. Actual homophobia. Actual religious bigotry.

So a few posters on one forum on this site are evidence enough of a huge potential groundswell of support for political parties that received less than 0.2% of the vote in this year's general election?

Also, any overt discrimination isn't tolerated on this site am I right?

We don't tolerate that type of thing here, never mind tolerating it in society in general.

The fact that you dismiss factual evidence in favor of your own opinion is alarming.

nullzero

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Again I'm not presenting facts. I'm making a prediction of the future based on what I've seen. Nobody could have predicted the rise of the right wing in the US 15 years ago. Same thing with brexit. I said there was a risk. It's not a sure thing and how can I present evidence when it's a prediction. There's a right wing swing happening at the moment as seen in the US and the rose of the Tory's and the likes of le pen. It's more I'm afraid that this could happen in Ireland even if it seems unlikely.

It's a prediction. You can't present facts that it won't happen unless you have a time machine.



Equating communism to what the left wing actually is protesting at the moment is utterly ridiculous. Nobody wants communism and extreme forms of communism are communist in name only. So called communist countries are right wing authoritarian governments.

Facts can be a cruel mistress indeed but they can also be twisted to support absolute fallacies like this.

Or indeed fallacies of the type you post as fact?

You have no problem equating modern right wing groups with fascists but take offence when the boot is on the other foot.

There are elements of "the left" who believe in communism as a viable option for governance, albeit a small number.

Your assertion of a real potential for right wing extremism taking hold in this country is demonstrably inaccurate but you are happy to persist with the idea that it is viable even in the face of factual evidence to the contrary.

Foxtrol

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

But black people probably have it better in the USA than anywhere else. You couldn't have picked a freer more democratic part of the Globe if you tried.

It sounds like a Doctor focusing on an ingrown toenail while the patient is hemorrhaging from the brain.

By that logic no one should ever protest about nor give money to any charity until they are sure that those people are in the worst situation in the world.