Police shootings, vigilante shootings, and Black Lives Matter

johnnyskeleton

Mod note:

Thread reopened. Discussion of the CA forum should be addressed in that forum, to its mods, or in Feedback as approrpriate, in line with the relevant procedures e.g. reporting posts.

Allegations in relation to who is, in fact, the loon should be addressed the TCN if that forum is still open and active.

Retr0gamer

nullzero wrote: »

Or indeed fallacies of the type you post as fact?

You have no problem equating modern right wing groups with fascists but take offence when the boot is on the other foot.

There are elements of "the left" who believe in communism as a viable option for governance, albeit a small number.

Your assertion of a real potential for right wing extremism taking hold in this country is demonstrably inaccurate but you are happy to persist with the idea that it is viable even in the face of factual evidence to the contrary.

I'm done with you. You just keep twisting what I'm saying to create a strawman and present something I didn't say. It's a waste of time arguing with you about stuff I never said.

nullzero

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I'm done with you. You just keep twisting what I'm saying to create a strawman and present something I didn't say. It's a waste of time arguing with you about stuff I never said.

You said "it's a risk that racism could kickoff big time in Ireland".

I don't think it's unfair to associate right wing extremism or fascism with what you said.

You presented your opinion, I countered that opinion with facts as per the election data from this year referencing such individuals and parties who are part of the group you feel could "kickoff big time".

If you can't react to that with anything other than accusations of strawmen arguments then I'd say the discussion has reached a natural conclusion anyway.

V8 Interceptor

Brian? wrote: »

In your view Antifa are more fascist than actual fascists. I’m perfectly ok with debating the rights and wrongs of how they conduct themselves; but this is flat out ridiculous. It’s a talking point I’ve heard parroted across this site, it let’s actual fascists off the hook.

What actual fascists? There are no actual fascists in Ireland.

I said Antifa fit the bill closer than anyone else. There's no other group I heard of going around trying to stop others from speaking, violently attacking people with their faces covered and otherwise deciding who has the right to voice their opinions and who hasn't in a free democratic Country.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Last time I checked the US wasn't one of the freest most democratic places in the world. It's ranked as a flawed democracy and has major racism issues with the likes of voter suppression and gerrymandering and a massive racial economic divide.

Compared to where? The entirety of the 3rd World, the entirety of the 2nd (developing) World and a large part, perhaps a majority, of the 1st World. Why are you going after a place that is probably in the top 5% of places to live on earth regardless of your colour?

Brian? wrote: »

They are refuges, and like other countries since World War 2 we have a duty to help out displaced people.

Refugees from where? And why are there so many of them that your town is full of them?

And why does your small Irish town have a duty to take in, what you say is a very large number of these people? Isn't the first duty of this State to Irish citizens?

Brian? wrote: »

Also racism doesn't come from immigration, it's entirely a man made problem that comes from bigotry and ignorance.

Try telling that to the towns all across England who've been "enriched" by Islamic immigration.

V8 Interceptor

Foxtrol wrote: »

By that logic no one should ever protest about nor give money to any charity until they are sure that those people are in the worst situation in the world.

Well I wouldn't give money to a charity who's people are among the best off in the World.

Brian?

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

What actual fascists? There are no actual fascists in Ireland.

I said Antifa fit the bill closer than anyone else. There's no other group I heard of going around trying to stop others from speaking, violently attacking people with their faces covered and otherwise deciding who has the right to voice their opinions and who hasn't in a free democratic Country.

There are fascists in Ireland, thankfully very few. Violence or an objection to free speech doesn't make you a fascist.

Compared to where? The entirety of the 3rd World, the entirety of the 2nd (developing) World and a large part, perhaps a majority, of the 1st World. Why are you going after a place that is probably in the top 5% of places to live on earth regardless of your colour?



Refugees from where? And why are there so many of them that your town is full of them?

And why does your small Irish town have a duty to take in, what you say is a very large number of these people? Isn't the first duty of this State to Irish citizens?


Try telling that to the towns all across England who've been "enriched" by Islamic immigration.

Where did you get the quotes a above from? Why are you replying to them in this thread and not in the one they were originally posted in?

Foxtrol

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

Well I wouldn't give money to a charity who's people are among the best off in the World.

Over $500 million was donated to support those dealing with the wild fires in Australia a few months ago, despite Australia being one of the best off in the world.

Most people don't have a table of 'which people are really worst off' that they reference when they feel the need to protest or give to charity, it ends up being an emotional rather than logical decision and a lot of times, rightly or wrongly, it is based on what they can relate to.

I've seen several posters make similar claims in threads on these topics, that they somehow superior in the logic they use about who they see as truly in need, however they spend more time highlighting how bad BLM is than highlighting the struggles of who they claim is really needing help. Either their actions don't match their claims of logic or they're only feigning concern about other groups.

Biafranlivemat

SNIP. Don't dump links and images here please. This is a discussion form.

Foxtrol

Biafranlivemat wrote: »

Also fascists hate Jews.
At a bLM rally, a few days ago in Boston, a Jewish man was Whipped.
Numerous Synagogues have been attacked by bLM supporters, since June.

Interesting that you ignore the fact that the BLM movement is widely supported by Jewish groups, who clearly know those incidents are isolated.

Here are over 600 groups/synagogues that took out an advert to show their support for BLM.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/black-lives-matter-declare-groups-representing-majority-of-us-jews-in-nyt-ad/

It has a line that calls out the exact type of crap right wing media pull attempting to divide and you are parroting.

We support the Black-led movement in this country that is calling for accountability and transparency from the government and law enforcement. We know that freedom and safety for any of us depends on the freedom and safety of all of us.

There are politicians and political movements in this country who build power by deliberately manufacturing fear to divide us against each other. All too often, antisemitism is at the center of these manufactured divisions.

Foxtrol

Mic 1972 wrote: »

Actually it does.

Antifa ticks almost all boxes with regards to fascism.
- harassing people in the street and forcing them to do yell BLM and do the BLM salute
- threatening people on social media for having a different opinion to them
- beating up republican supporters at public events
- pushing an agenda of discrimination towards a specific etnicity
- acting like they are a majority by simply being louder and more aggressive
- Attacking people and destroying private property

This is how the fascists got into power in Italy and we all know how it ended

"Beginning in 1922, Fascist paramilitaries escalated their strategy from one of attacking socialist offices and the homes of socialist leadership figures, to one of violent occupation of cities. The Fascists met little serious resistance from authorities and proceeded to take over several northern Italian cities"
Wikipedia

It says all you need to know about a person when a group asks for equality and they claim that equality would be discrimination.

rossie1977

Mic 1972 wrote: »

Actually it does.

Antifa ticks almost all boxes with regards to fascism.
- harassing people in the street and forcing them to do yell BLM and do the BLM salute
- threatening people on social media for having a different opinion to them
- beating up republican supporters at public events
- pushing an agenda of discrimination towards a specific etnicity
- acting like they are a majority by simply being louder and more aggressive
- Attacking people and destroying private property


This is how the fascists got into power in Italy and we all know how it ended

Actually characteristics of fascism are
1. Overt nationalism
2. Distain for human rights
3. Creating a enemy and using it as an unifying symbol
4. Supremacy of the military
5. Rampant sexism
6. Control of mass media
7. Obsession with national security
8. Religion and government intertwined
9. Corporate power protected
10. Labour power suppressed
11. Distain for intellectuals and the arts
12. Obsession with crime and punishment
13. Cronyism and corruption
14. Fraudulent elections.

Every fascist regime shared those exact characteristics. We see those same things being implemented by governments in a number of countries right now!

rossie1977

Mic 1972 wrote: »

You conveniently left out same key elements of Fascism such as racism (against white people at the moment) and violence/harassement against people who have a different opinion, censorship and cancellation of people don't share the same views. All of these are blatantly represented by the current woke movement.
But somehow the woke/democrats tick most of your boxes too, as highlighted above.

Hail Wokness!

Racism falls under #3. Target a specific group be it Jews, Muslims, Hispanics and blame all the problems of the world on them.

Where is there racism against white people? This sounds like far right youtube nonsense!

Are any Democrats advocating violence/harassment, censorship etc because I see no evidence of such.

As for fascism
Which party in the US is most nationalistic.
Which party is stopping asylum seekers entering US and prior to that waterboarding prisoners
Which party is the one banning Muslims entering and calling Hispanics dogs, rapists and all ms13?
Which party continually try to get military budget increased
Which party called main stream media fake and ban them from press conferences
Which party has biggest sexist issue right now?
Which party is most obsessed with national security, building walls, banning certain groups from entering
Which party is most likely to see religion play big role in government
Which party continually cuts taxes and regulations for big corporations
Which party has weakened labour power most since 1980.
Which party thinks science is a joke and Hollywood too?
Which party is for increased police, increased jails, increasing executions
Which party is employing family members in high ranking jobs within white house?
Which party have had numerous top ranking officials indicted in efforts to change course of election?

Carfacemandog

A link to the 600 synagogues and Jewish groups supporting BLM.

Here is the full list - https://medium.com/@jewishorgssayblacklivesmatter/jewish-organizations-and-synagogues-say-black-lives-matter-a1a0f7ea6da7

Carfacemandog

Mic 1972 wrote: »

You conveniently left out same key elements of Fascism such as racism (against white people at the moment)

Dont pretend you give a sh*t about racism. You're fooling nobody with that lie, and have been an active sycophant for a guy who refused to move outed white supremacists from his staff in the white house only recently.

and violence/harassement against people who have a different opinion,

You also don't care about this one bit so can stop spewing that lie too. If you had cared about this, you would not have been so busy supporting someone who outright called for his supporters to resort to violence with those they disagree with, and that he would pay their legal fees if they did so.

censorship and cancellation of people don't share the same views.

The lies just keep coming thick and fast with you, who worships at the the throne of someone who literally went out of his way to push for having people fired from their profession for exercising their first amendment rights to free speech and expression by peacefully protesting.

And who wanted a FOX reporter fired for reporting the news of them calling military members "losers" and "suckers".

And who wanted an MSNBC host fired for things they were saying.

An who wanted a NYT journalist fired for things they were saying.

And who wanted a Washington Post journalist fired for things they said.

And who had the clergy gassed outside their own church for exercising their freedoms peacefully.

Mic, you're lying. To us, to yourself, or both. The sheer levels of projection are a little fascinating, but ultimately quite pathetic to read through.

You've been an active supporter of a regime that knowingly staffs racists in prominent positions, that has actively encouraged violence against their political opponents and those who disagree with them, and who are hugely (bigly, even) into cancel culture for anyone who does not agree with them. Don't go thinking you'll convince anyone that these issues actually matter to you on any kind of moral level.

All of these are blatantly represented by the current woke movement.

ancapailldorcha

Be civil please and don't derail the thread. Allegations of anti-white racism are off topic.

Biafranlivemat

Foxtrol wrote: »

Interesting that you ignore the fact that the BLM movement is widely supported by Jewish groups, who clearly know those incidents are isolated.

Here are over 600 groups/synagogues that took out an advert to show their support for BLM.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/black-lives-matter-declare-groups-representing-majority-of-us-jews-in-nyt-ad/

It has a line that calls out the exact type of crap right wing media pull attempting to divide and you are parroting.

"Interesting that you ignore the fact that the BLM movement is widely supported by Jewish groups"


Your attempt at being funny has failed on me.
Politically there are two major factions of Jews in the US.


25% right wing.
They have learned from their history and they don't want it repeated for anyone.



75% Left wing
What they have unfortunately learned from their history.
Is that hate is OK
Censorship is OK
Example,Hate the 2nd amendment.


And the worst part is, they are Hypocrites
Here are 3 very liberal towns in near Boston with large Jewish populations.
Maybe they like black people, just once blacks don't live in their town.


Brookline 3.4% Black
Newton 2.5% Black
Marblehead 0.4% Black


600 or 6000 groups/synagogues, doesn't matter to me, they are all full of it.


I can go into more detail, giving examples, etc

Biafranlivemat

Foxtrol wrote: »

It says all you need to know about a person when a group asks for equality and they claim that equality would be discrimination.

They aren't asking for Equality.
They are asking for equity of outcome.
Big difference.


"Here is the paradox of equity: the state must treat individuals unequally in order to enforce equality of outcome. However, with equality of opportunity, each individual is granted an equal opportunity to pursue their own unequal outcomes. Historically speaking, equal opportunity results in the liberty of the individual, while equal outcomes results in tyranny, genocide, and the enslavement of the individual."


You do not understand what is going on.
You want and support discrimination based on the colour of someones skin.

Biafranlivemat

In Stockton, CA
A mayor who wanted to de fund the police, has lost in a election to a Black pro-police candidate.
Stockton is less than 37% white.

https://policetribune.com/stockton-elects-pro-police-marine-after-mayor-pushes-to-defund-school-police/

Foxtrol

Biafranlivemat wrote: »

In Stockton, CA
A mayor who wanted to de fund the police, has lost in a election to a Black pro-police candidate.
Stockton is less than 37% white.

https://policetribune.com/stockton-elects-pro-police-marine-after-mayor-pushes-to-defund-school-police/

Did you bother to even read the article past the click bait headline? The mayor that lost refused to follow demands to defund the police outside of schools, it doesn't appear that the defund element played much of a part in his loss but if it did it was just a successful smear campaign by the GOP rather than his actual position.

Although Tubbs supported the school-based police defunding effort, he refused to bow to protesters’ demands to defund the Stockton Police Department (SPD), KTXL reported.

“We won’t be taking money away from our minimally-staffed police department,” he said in June. “We are still vastly, vastly, vastly understaffed compared to peer cities with our populations.”

Foxtrol

Biafranlivemat wrote: »

"Interesting that you ignore the fact that the BLM movement is widely supported by Jewish groups"

Your attempt at being funny has failed on me.
Politically there are two major factions of Jews in the US.

25% right wing.
They have learned from their history and they don't want it repeated for anyone.

75% Left wing
What they have unfortunately learned from their history.
Is that hate is OK
Censorship is OK
Example,Hate the 2nd amendment.

And the worst part is, they are Hypocrites
Here are 3 very liberal towns in near Boston with large Jewish populations.
Maybe they like black people, just once blacks don't live in their town.

Brookline 3.4% Black
Newton 2.5% Black
Marblehead 0.4% Black

600 or 6000 groups/synagogues, doesn't matter to me, they are all full of it.

I can go into more detail, giving examples, etc

Learned their lesson and have decided to try to cozy up to the white supremacists and neo-nazis in the hopes that it moves them off the top of their hate list?

I'm glad you admit that a much higher percent of jewish people in american support BLM.

Foxtrol

Biafranlivemat wrote: »

They aren't asking for Equality.
They are asking for equity of outcome.
Big difference.


"Here is the paradox of equity: the state must treat individuals unequally in order to enforce equality of outcome. However, with equality of opportunity, each individual is granted an equal opportunity to pursue their own unequal outcomes. Historically speaking, equal opportunity results in the liberty of the individual, while equal outcomes results in tyranny, genocide, and the enslavement of the individual."


You do not understand what is going on.
You want and support discrimination based on the colour of someones skin.

It is blatantly obvious that you cannot deal with how the BLM movement does not ask for police reform for one race or another, that they want it to be universal. To get around this you have to drag in anything else.

I'm also completely aware of what is going on with the rest of your post, you feign desiring equality but wish to do nothing to help it come about aside from saying the words. It is delusion to claim 'equality of opportunity' when study after study shows how difficult it is to move out of the socio-economic group you are born into and how much of that has been driven by race in the US.

Biafranlivemat

Carfacemandog wrote: »

A link to the 600 synagogues and Jewish groups supporting BLM.

Here is the full list - https://medium.com/@jewishorgssayblacklivesmatter/jewish-organizations-and-synagogues-say-black-lives-matter-a1a0f7ea6da7

I only looked at the Boston area Jewish organizations.
Great stuff, LMAO

The crazy thing I learned from that list.
Rabbis can get a discount on tickets, to the Boston Red Socks baseball games.

Biafranlivemat

Foxtrol wrote: »

It is blatantly obvious that you cannot deal with how the BLM movement does not ask for police reform for one race or another, that they want it to be universal. To get around this you have to drag in anything else.

I'm also completely aware of what is going on with the rest of your post, you feign desiring equality but wish to do nothing to help it come about aside from saying the words. It is delusion to claim 'equality of opportunity' when study after study shows how difficult it is to move out of the socio-economic group you are born into and how much of that has been driven by race in the US.

blm stand for the destruction of the Nuclear Family and Capitalism, The whole police reform, is the issue they they are using at the moment.
They are moving on from "police reform"


What has "police reform" got to do with the following.


"Black Lives Matter-Los Angeles and Ground Game LA have vowed to conduct a demonstration every day until Biden commits to not appointing Garcetti to the cabinet."
https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2020/12/02/protest-garcetti-home-black-lives-matter/

Biafranlivemat

Foxtrol wrote: »

It is blatantly obvious that you cannot deal with how the BLM movement does not ask for police reform for one race or another, that they want it to be universal. To get around this you have to drag in anything else.

I'm also completely aware of what is going on with the rest of your post, you feign desiring equality but wish to do nothing to help it come about aside from saying the words. It is delusion to claim 'equality of opportunity' when study after study shows how difficult it is to move out of the socio-economic group you are born into and how much of that has been driven by race in the US.

As for 'equality of opportunity', I actually agree with you, to a degree.
Poor people are getting screwed over, it used to be easier being poor in the US, but for years now, the poor have been hit harder and it will get worse under Biden and Harris.

ancapailldorcha

This thread is about Police shootings in the US and BLM. Please do not derail it with other topics such as immigration and Antifa. Off topic and below standard posts removed.

Mic 1972

Foxtrol wrote: »

It is blatantly obvious that you cannot deal with how the BLM movement does not ask for police reform for one race or another, that they want it to be universal. To get around this you have to drag in anything else.

I'm also completely aware of what is going on with the rest of your post, you feign desiring equality but wish to do nothing to help it come about aside from saying the words. It is delusion to claim 'equality of opportunity' when study after study shows how difficult it is to move out of the socio-economic group you are born into and how much of that has been driven by race in the US.

Nobody said it's easy to move out of own socio-economic group but the challenge is entirely up to the person and more so to the family that is raising a person. There are specific reason why people coming from certain groups are not being successful in life and it has usually to do with the sort of environment they are exposed.


BLM is demanding socialism as a form to level out all differences, but this not a model that can be applied to western sociaties.

Foxtrol

Mic 1972 wrote: »

Nobody said it's easy to move out of own socio-economic group but the challenge is entirely up to the person and more so to the family that is raising a person. There are specific reason why people coming from certain groups are not being successful in life and it has usually to do with the sort of environment they are exposed.


BLM is demanding socialism as a form to level out all differences, but this not a model that can be applied to western sociaties.

Yes, an environment where a person's parents or grandparents were treated as second class citizens and ancestors were the property of other groups.

Foxtrol

Biafranlivemat wrote: »

blm stand for the destruction of the Nuclear Family and Capitalism, The whole police reform, is the issue they they are using at the moment.
They are moving on from "police reform"


What has "police reform" got to do with the following.


"Black Lives Matter-Los Angeles and Ground Game LA have vowed to conduct a demonstration every day until Biden commits to not appointing Garcetti to the cabinet."
https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2020/12/02/protest-garcetti-home-black-lives-matter/

I understand attacking the BLM organisation for their secondary beliefs is a much easier path to point scoring than dealing with the very credible and widely supported founding issue of the broader BLM movement - police reform. Despite anti-BLM posters taking this avenue again and again it is obviously such a weak argument.

Anyone with even a moderate level of intelligence can agree with elements of a person or an organisation's beliefs or policies. It isn't a difficult concept.

Mic 1972

Foxtrol wrote: »

Yes, an environment where a person's parents or grandparents were treated as second class citizens and ancestors were the property of other groups.

an environment where parents teach their kids about being systemic victims of white people instead of taking accountability and work hard for your goal is definitely not going to be good.
Especially if the parents are also in and out of jail, drunk and have other social issues.

Europeans were at war with one another until 70 years ago, we didn't teach our kids to hate Germans. People move on with their lives.
it's people who blame others for their failure that never amount to anything.

Mic 1972

Foxtrol wrote: »

I understand attacking the BLM organisation for their secondary beliefs is a much easier path to point scoring than dealing with the very credible and widely supported founding issue of the broader BLM movement - police reform. Despite anti-BLM posters taking this avenue again and again it is obviously such a weak argument.

Anyone with even a moderate level of intelligence can agree with elements of a person or an organisation's beliefs or policies. It isn't a difficult concept.

Way to twist reality


Secondary beliefs - in your own words - are still BLM beliefs and are very definitely not compatible with western society.
Just because members of BLM may come from failed families it doesn't mean that nuclear family is a wrong model.

Reforming the police is Refunding the Police, and one again, a completely wrong approach