Police shootings, vigilante shootings, and Black Lives Matter

briany

Chips Lovell wrote: »

Try telling an Italian American that they're somehow responsible for addressing Mafia crime or an Irish person in Britain that they had a responsibility to combat the IRA.

Why couldn't those Catholic Nationalists just have protested peacefully in the wake of Bloody Sunday, eh?

everlast75

AbusesToilets wrote: »

You're only seeing a snapshot of all interactions though, with a deliberate aim to strengthen the narrative that police are overly violent towards black people. There's ~10 million police interactions per annum iirc, with ~1000 shootings. The vast majority of those are justified, good shoots. You see one questionable event and a city burns. Meanwhile 20 people get shot over a weekend in certain cities, and nothing.

Which "questionable" event are you talking about? Floyd? Because that sure as **** wasn't questionable. That was murder IMHO.

The only time "a city burned" was Rodney King. And again, that wasn't "questionable".

Violence has escalated, but Trump has done that. He doesn't even dog whistle anymore. It's an air raid siren at this stage.

To be fair, you are making decisions from here without walking a mile in the shoes of a black person in certain states where lynching was legal up to relatively recently. There is far too much for this to be so readily dismissed.

Tell me how

AbusesToilets wrote: »

You're only seeing a snapshot of all interactions though, with a deliberate aim to strengthen the narrative that police are overly violent towards black people. There's ~10 million police interactions per annum iirc, with ~1000 shootings. The vast majority of those are justified, good shoots. You see one questionable event and a city burns. Meanwhile 20 people get shot over a weekend in certain cities, and nothing.

Most significant events are so because there is video evidence.
There are probably many more events and certainly more in the past in which there was no evidence available.
And for ones that escalate to the point of shots fired and/or someone dying, there are probably many more which do not have the same outcome, but the same unacceptable behaviour.

Also, if a single person died (as has happened in Ireland) due to unacceptable behaviour by an official body or organisation, it would and does receive huge attention irrespective of the number of incidents which that body was involved in where the behaviour and outcome was what is expected.

The repeal of the 8th amendment was argued for largely as a response to one such incident.
In such cases, where the intent and behaviour is appropriate, but the outcome still tragic, it is accepted that unfortunately such things happen but if the behaviour is not ideal, in a functioning society, there is movement to correct it.

This is what people who are going on BLM protests want to see happen.

Retr0gamer

AbusesToilets wrote: »

You're only seeing a snapshot of all interactions though, with a deliberate aim to strengthen the narrative that police are overly violent towards black people. There's ~10 million police interactions per annum iirc, with ~1000 shootings. The vast majority of those are justified, good shoots. You see one questionable event and a city burns. Meanwhile 20 people get shot over a weekend in certain cities, and nothing.

Well maybe the police are too busy harassing and shooting minorities to be dealing with the actual criminals you are referring to.

Carfacemandog

Tell me how wrote: »

Most significant events are so because there is video evidence.
There are probably many more events and certainly more in the past in which there was no evidence available.

That is actually specifically why the Rodney King riots started in 1992 - camcorders were relatively rare, especially in poorer areas, and when his absolute beating at the hands of police was caught on camera it resonated with a lot of people who had been dealt similar but good as never had their word taken over the cops who would just deny it, even in the event of witnesses saying similar.

When the cops who beat the sh*te out of King got acquitted despite the video evidence, it resonated even more and all hell broke loose.

Of course, they had more competent leadership then in Bush Snr so the riots died down after a few days of bedlam. Unfortunately in 2020, that couldn't be further from the case as I believe Friday or Saturday will mark the 100th straight day of protests and riots in the US with no real signs of deescalation.

FrostyJack

everlast75 wrote: »

Which "questionable" event are you talking about? Floyd? Because that sure as **** wasn't questionable. That was murder IMHO.

The only time "a city burned" was Rodney King. And again, that wasn't "questionable".

Violence has escalated, but Trump has done that. He doesn't even dog whistle anymore. It's an air raid siren at this stage.

To be fair, you are making decisions from here without walking a mile in the shoes of a black person in certain states where lynching was legal up to relatively recently. There is far too much for this to be so readily dismissed.

I generally agree with you and you are not totally wrong, there is systemic racism blatantly in the US, Trump is 100% trying to stoke it for his benefit, he doesn't even pretend to be the President of anyone but his base. Having lived over there and traveled around with people of colour, I seen first hand how there is a 2 tier system. I could basically go anywhere with impunity, they could be stopped and searched at any time for no reason other than they were not white. This is middle class people not any stereotype. At the same time we have to take the police shootings case by case. I know people over there that think the George Flyod murder was at worst an accident, especially after the 2nd video was released. They are totally wrong, he was in police custody so they had duty of care, so it is stone wall at least manslaughter. The case where the guy stole the tazer and was running away was, at least manslaughter, he was in no danger when he shot the guy. The case in Vegas where the cop made the guy have a game of simon says and shot him is 100% murder. Not every police shooting is like that, to lump them all into one devalues them and it just becomes a narrative.

everlast75

Anyone going to come on here and defend this?


https://twitter.com/PodSaveAmerica/status/1300557665806868480?s=19


Biden has denounced violence. Biden has denounced looting.


Trump is defending murder.


Can anyone not see how this makes matters infinitely worse? How it incites violence against BLM protesters?

AbusesToilets

everlast75 wrote: »

Anyone going to come on here and defend this?


https://twitter.com/PodSaveAmerica/status/1300557665806868480?s=19


Biden has denounced violence. Biden has denounced looting.


Trump is defending murder.


Can anyone not see how this makes matters infinitely worse? How it incites violence against BLM protesters?

It wasn't murder.

everlast75

everlast75 wrote: »

Anyone going to come on here and defend this?


https://twitter.com/PodSaveAmerica/status/1300557665806868480?s=19


Biden has denounced violence. Biden has denounced looting.


Trump is defending murder.


Can anyone not see how this makes matters infinitely worse? How it incites violence against BLM protesters?

Is the court case over?

Startled Earwig

At this stage it seems like it's only a matter of time before Trump is eulogising Jeffrey Dahmer.

He's firmly on the side of the white supremacist terrorists. He has been since the start.

sandbelter

Latest turn in Chicago is gangs have apparently formed an alliance to ambush and kill police officers.

Obviously they are "the law" on their turf now.

The "situational information report" from FBI officials in Chicago dated August 26, 2020, states "members of these gang factions have been actively searching for, and filming, police officers in performance of their official duties. The purpose of which is to catch on film an officer drawing his/her weapon on any subject and the subsequent 'shoot on-site' of said officer, in order to garner national media attention."

Source: https://abc7chicago.com/fbi-chicago-warns-that-gang-cabal-may-be-targeting-police-officers-/6397730/?fbclid=IwAR3nVIqd7CMzWpEhIhQiWiZzn5FBTLqFvSvhRxnZUjyN5HzD_e1K0FMyvfU

everlast75

AbusesToilets wrote: »

It wasn't murder.

Oh, I'm sorry. Are we now disallowed to make decisions before Court cases are over? Because wasn't that what you were doing?

The lad was driven a couple of states over armed to the teeth to "counter protesters." Wtf was he doing there with an assault rifle? He wasn't defending his property. Sounds very premeditated to me. Let's see how his court case goes.

Would you argue if I substituted "murderer" with "armed gangs picking a fight with people, inflaming a situation and who end up killing people". Would that make Trump's actions any better?

Besides, I've argued with enough Trump supporters to know that they are argue to the facts first and once they are proven wrong disagree with the facts regardless.

brentanrodgers

everlast75 wrote: »

There seems to be an awful lot of video footage of cops shooting black people, or using excessive physical force and lots of examples of white people doing a lot more and not being met by such violent reactions.

This is just silly, there's plenty of videos of unarmed whites being killed and blacks being treated diligently. Should I post one video of a black man being treated well and ten of white men being shot to make a point? You are being played by emotionally charged twitter drivel.

What you should be looking at is FBI statistics and such to try and make a point - of course actual statistics may not favour your viewpoint.

FrostyJack

everlast75 wrote: »

The lad was driven a couple of states over armed to the teeth to "counter protesters." Wtf was he doing there with an assault rifle? He wasn't defending his property. Sounds very premeditated to me. Let's see how his court case goes.

Again with the hyperbole, he wasn't armed to teeth, he had 1 rifle, yes it is far better weapon than a skate board or a fist but he wasn't draped like Arnie in commando. The only thing draped on him was ironically a first aid kit. For all his sins, I don't think he went there to shoot people, but was more then willing when it came down to it. There are videos of him punching a girl and reports he went to apply for the Marines but was rejected, take from that what you will. The statement that his defense team released says nothing about molotov so it looks like he panicked and shot the first guy so would be 3rd degree or manslaughter. He should not have been there, he should not have had the weapon and most likely not have shot anyone but there is no need to put things on him that didn't happen. Same with George Floyd's killer, it wasn't premeditated, he didn't wake up that morning and say he was going to kill him and I am pretty sure knowing there were people watching and recording him he didn't intend for him to die, in saying that, his actions, or lack there of resulted in the death so he is definitely a killer, just not in the 1st degree.

FrostyJack

FrostyJack wrote: »

Again with the hyperbole, he wasn't armed to teeth, he had 1 rifle, yes it is far better weapon than a skate board or a fist but he wasn't draped like Arnie in commando. The only thing draped on him was ironically a first aid kit. For all his sins, I don't think he went there to shoot people, but was more then willing when it came down to it. There are videos of him punching a girl and reports he went to apply for the Marines but was rejected, take from that what you will. The statement that his defense team released says nothing about molotov so it looks like he panicked and shot the first guy so would be 3rd degree or manslaughter. He should not have been there, he should not have had the weapon and most likely not have shot anyone but there is no need to put things on him that didn't happen. Same with George Floyd's killer, it wasn't premeditated, he didn't wake up that morning and say he was going to kill him and I am pretty sure knowing there were people watching and recording him he didn't intend for him to die, in saying that, his actions, or lack there of resulted in the death so he is definitely a killer, just not in the 1st degree.

He boasted shortly before that he would use lethal force..

FrostyJack

Deleted User wrote: »

He boasted shortly before that he would use lethal force..

To shoot people randomly or defend himself? Cannot believe I have to defend this head case.

everlast75

FrostyJack wrote: »

To shoot people randomly or defend himself? Cannot believe I have to defend this head case.

Defend himself???

Wtf was he doing there?

FrostyJack

FrostyJack wrote: »

To shoot people randomly or defend himself? Cannot believe I have to defend this head case.

He was boasting that it would be his first resort... That's pretty indicative of his state of mind.

FrostyJack

everlast75 wrote: »

Defend himself???

Wtf was he doing there?

He says he was there to defend property and to provide first aid to locals. He should not have been there, he should not have been armed and is totally delusional, definite school shooter in the making, he and his mother should be in jail for this reason, he didn't fly in on a gunship shouting "shoot the commies" and fire randomly into a crowd as being portrayed here and on liberal media. He came into conflict with protesters but we don't know the circumstances of that. If you had a gun and a group people charged you or thought they would take your weapon, would you shoot? If they were just shouting at him or intimating him or damaging property he didn't own, then it is straight up murder. We don't know the total picture the video is very inconclusive.

brentanrodgers

I think it's idiotic for anyone to show up during these riots for any reason, especially with a weapon. Here is what his lawyer is claiming, its a fairly lengthy run down of events from the defendents POV without interruption, make up your own mind.

Water John

The policeman on George Floyd's neck had 8 minutes and 46 seconds to think about it.

StringerBell

Water John wrote: »

The policeman on George Floyd's neck had 8 minutes and 46 seconds to think about it.

I think that one is pretty much universally accepted, I mean when you even have Donald Trump calling it a disgrace you know that's completely beyond the level of indefensible that they try to defend.

Tell me how

FrostyJack wrote: »

To shoot people randomly or defend himself? Cannot believe I have to defend this head case.

This child should have been at home playing call of duty instead of inserting himself in to a dangerous situation.

If his focus was on defending himself, that's the option he should have taken.

Water John

Tell me how wrote: »

This child should have been at home playing call of duty instead of inserting himself in to a dangerous situation.

If his focus was on defending himself, that's the option he should have taken.

Let's say the guy was a bit immature. The problem is the rhetoric of Trump and his ilk give him the licence.

Tell me how

Water John wrote: »

Let's say the guy was a bit immature. The problem is the rhetoric of Trump and his ilk give him the licence.

Absolutely. In the last few days, Trump tweeted wishing that the victim shot by a BLM protester would Rest in Peace, and refused to condemn the actions of the vigilante which killed two BLM protestors but instead suggested it was self defense.

History will focus on key bullet points of Trumps Presidency and will likely lead people to wonder 'How stupid were people to let this guy get away with this'.

GreeBo

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Well given the fact he was up on a warrant for sexual assault, with previous incidents of fighting police, combined with the fact that the police were called because he had broken in to a woman's house, digitally penetrated her and stole her car, I'd say it's a reasonable assumption to make that he posed a danger. Couple that to him fighting police again prior to getting shot.

Remind me how any of the above is a threat to anyones life?

GreeBo

FrostyJack wrote: »

How much "potential" could it take for someone to pick up a gun and turn and shoot? 1 second, 5 seconds, a minute? In the US there is always potential. I am not saying that if Jacob was white he would have been given the benefit of the doubt, but to say he couldn't have done nothing or there was no danger is laughable. I am sure you can scroll through liveleak enough and see dash cam footage of cops being shot or do some decent firearms training you would know there is next to no time to react. It is like people saying that they would just block a pro fighters punch. Walter Mitty stuff. The problems started before the video, the cops let it get out of control and Jacob was clearly not of sound mind, a recipe for disaster. Did he deserve to be shot, no probably not, but we are looking at hindsight arm chair quarterbacking. Unfortunately the cops don't wear body cams so that would have given a better insight to what happened.

Ergo, cops should put a bullet in everyone first, just in case?

listermint

Tell me how wrote: »

This child should have been at home playing call of duty instead of inserting himself in to a dangerous situation.

If his focus was on defending himself, that's the option he should have taken.

The games over 18s hes not allowed play it.

Begs the question how hes not allowed play the video game but has an AR15.


Mad all things considered..........

Tell me how

listermint wrote: »

The games over 18s hes not allowed play it.

Begs the question how hes not allowed play the video game but has an AR15.


Mad all things considered..........

Jesus, when you put it like that....

Couldn't have a drink for 4 more years either but can walk the street with an assault rifle in the middle of a protest.

GreeBo

brentanrodgers wrote: »

I think it's idiotic for anyone to show up during these riots for any reason, especially with a weapon. Here is what his lawyer is claiming, its a fairly lengthy run down of events from the defendents POV without interruption, make up your own mind.

"oh, why did I bring the petrol can to the fire? to protect myself in case any fire decided to attack me"

This is why the gun laws are idiotic over there. Guns escalate situations like this.