Heating issue

dar_cool

Hi Guys,
Having a problem with the heating in our house. We have a Grant Vortex(Approx 10 years old). House has approx 20 radiators. Open system with tanks in the attic. Decided to run the heating today just to test it in preparation for season. Downstairs radiators are heating fine but upstairs I can't get going at all. I've tried to bleed the radiators but no water comes out of any of them at all. On some of them I get the usual hiss but then goes quiet. Would circulation pump be the culprit here? I can't really feel it run through any of the 3 speed settings. I've removed the bleed screw and shaft seems to spin freely. Heating system worked fine last April . Any ideas guys?
Thanks alot

Tom44

Check ballcock in small tank in attic is not stuck ( and tank dry)

dar_cool

Tom44 wrote: »

Check ballcock in small tank in attic is not stuck ( and tank dry)

I've checked the tanks in the attic and ball cock is working fine and tank is full

dar_cool

Boiler keeps stopping aswell maybe 30/40 minutes into turning on aswell

John.G

I would drain a little from the downstairs rads (via a vent or whatever) until the ball cock starts making up, this ensures that there is no blockage in the cold feed which is the only sort of logical answer. If ball cock is making up then suggest carrying out the following.....
With circ pump off can you remove the bleed screw completely from one of the upstairs rads and ensure the actual vent in the rad is clear but have plenty of rags to hand in case water comes out, also open any motorised valve manually if fitted.

dar_cool

Thanks for the replies guys
I drained approx 3/4 litres from one of the downstairs rads. Got up in the attic and it was taking in water in one of the tanks. I removed the bleed valve completely from one of the rads upstairs and again nothing came out at all

chuck eastwood

dar_cool wrote: »

Thanks for the replies guys
I drained approx 3/4 litres from one of the downstairs rads. Got up in the attic and it was taking in water in one of the tanks. I removed the bleed valve completely from one of the rads upstairs and again nothing came out at all

One of the tanks ? Are you sure it was the header tank for the heating. I had this problem two years ago after doing a little re piping to add a rad and change a few bits. Drained half the system and on refilling nothing in the upper loop. Turns out the pipe from the tank down to the system inlet was blocked with sludge because it hadn't been drained or re filled for a few years

CoBo55

Try loosening the centre guts at the radiator tap, you could have an airlock there and the larger opening might encourage the water to flow.

Did you try running the heating with all the rads off and leaving one bleed screw open?

denismc

Do you have Zone valves?, could one of these be faulty.
Do you heat the hot water from the boiler? if so is the hot water tank heating up?

dar_cool

I have 3 tanks up there. 2 large and 1 small. The 2 large are connected by a pipe. One of the large tanks was filling after I drained the water out of the downstairs rad. I made sure nothing else was running. I had to move a stove in the kitchen while we were getting new floors which has a back boiler so had to be drained. Wonder is this the route cause

Wearb

dar_cool wrote: »

I have 3 tanks up there. 2 large and 1 small. The 2 large are connected by a pipe. One of the large tanks was filling after I drained the water out of the downstairs rad. I made sure nothing else was running. I had to move a stove in the kitchen while we were getting new floors which has a back boiler so had to be drained. Wonder is this the route cause

It's very unlikely that it's the large tank supplying your heating.

WestWicklow1

dar_cool wrote: »

Hi Guys,
ould circulation pump be the culprit here? I can't really feel it run through any of the 3 speed settings. I've removed the bleed screw and shaft seems to spin freely. Heating system worked fine last April . Any ideas guys?
Thanks alot

Are you absolutely sure the pump is working?

When you removed the bleed screw, was the pump powered? Was the shaft spinning or did you turn it manually with a screw driver?

Wearb

Op needs to have water coming out of all upstairs rad bleed valves before looking any further.

CoBo55

Wearb wrote: »

Op needs to have water coming out of all upstairs rad bleed valves before looking any further.

Would you think so?

Mastermind: Your special chosen subject.... The bloody obvious!!

jimf

CoBo55 wrote: »

Would you think so?

Mastermind: Your special chosen subject.... The bloody obvious!!

vey helpful

John.G

dar_cool wrote: »

I have 3 tanks up there. 2 large and 1 small. The 2 large are connected by a pipe. One of the large tanks was filling after I drained the water out of the downstairs rad. I made sure nothing else was running. I had to move a stove in the kitchen while we were getting new floors which has a back boiler so had to be drained. Wonder is this the route cause

IF the large tank(s) are supplying the heating system then you might have two vents bending over them, one from the heating system and one from the hot water storage tank, if the small tank has a vent then its more than likely that this is the supply to the heating systems, you might even have two vents to this small
(Feed & expansion) tank, one from the oil fired system and one from your back boiler. It may have been asked previously but is hot water circulating through the hot water cylinder coil. (assume its upstairs?).

dar_cool

Thanks again guys,
There is 2 vents. 1 on the small tank and 1 vent on the larger tank. The hot water cylinder is operating as normal, hot water to taps/showers is working with no issues.

KoolKid

Infraction for CoBo55
If you can't post something that's helpful and civil then don't post.

John.G

dar_cool wrote: »

Thanks again guys,
There is 2 vents. 1 on the small tank and 1 vent on the larger tank. The hot water cylinder is operating as normal, hot water to taps/showers is working with no issues.

If the hot water cylinder is upstairs then the heating water level should be at/nearly close to the rad tops so possibly points to air lock somewhere, if you have zoning would suggest shutting off downstairs zone and just leave one rad upstairs open to system and see if you can get rid of air by circulating the water through the cylinder coil and this one rad with pump speed at 3.

dar_cool

Thank you John. Cylinder is indeed upstairs so will give that a go

dar_cool

Tried that there but to no avail. Have all downstairs rads turned off by valve on the right and only 1 rad upstairs open. You can hear the water trickle in and bottom of the rad is very hot but heat doesn't get above mid way

John.G

You might find a valve on the return of the cylinder coil, you could shut this and retry, might also open up another upstairs rad while this valve is shut.

If this fails I would seriously consider draining down the entire system through the boiler drain then ensure any zone valves are latched open and very slowly refill the system by tying up the ball cock to allow only a trickle of water into the header tank. Some systems (like mine) have the cold feed teed into the vent and can cause venting problems on refilling after whole system drain if not refilled very slowly.

jimf

I wonder would back filling the system through the boiler drain off help if its an airlock

John.G

I've seen that suggested alright before so worth a try, with care!. (mains pressure)

dar_cool

The saga continues!!
So couldn't see a drain valve on any of the radiators downstairs so removed one side of the radiator turned it and connected hose pipe onto it. Opened the valve and drained to the outside and had a steady flow of water for approx 5/10 minutes. I had tied the ballcock off on small tank, tank in attic hasn't drained at all, I presume must be a blockage on the outlet of this tank?

John.G

Looks like it, can you see where the cold feed tees into the system?.

dar_cool

Yes cold feed is pictured here teed using compression fittings I assume. Another picture is the small tank
https://ibb.co/D8Cznyf
https://ibb.co/L0Xd71Q

jimf

John.G wrote: »

I've seen that suggested alright before so worth a try, with care!. (mains pressure)

goes without saying john

but I wonder if there are nrv fitted thus this rule this out

jimf

reading back again there can only be a blockage or very bad airlock

John.G

dar_cool wrote: »

Yes cold feed is pictured here teed using compression fittings I assume. Another picture is the small tank
https://ibb.co/D8Cznyf
https://ibb.co/L0Xd71Q

Is that teed into the vent?,one way or the other, empty the header tank and as long as the system water level is below the T, then remove it and clear out.

CoBo55

John.G wrote: »

If the hot water cylinder is upstairs then the heating water level should be at/nearly close to the rad tops so possibly points to air lock somewhere, if you have zoning would suggest shutting off downstairs zone and just leave one rad upstairs open to system and see if you can get rid of air by circulating the water through the cylinder coil and this one rad with pump speed at 3.

Exactly what I said earlier.

dar_cool

Sorry do you mean the feed supplying the tank in the attic or the feed going down towards the rads?

CoBo55

Is there water in the stove that was moved earlier? I would concentrate on it as it was the only thing that was changed and now you have these issues. You need to follow the water feed from the tank down to where it enters the system and crack it open and see is it blocked. As someone suggested earlier it could be blocked with sludge and isn't allowing water to enter the system.

John.G

I mean the cold feed which comes out of the bottom of the F&E tank, not the cold feed to the ball cock

dar_cool

Think I may have found the culprit. Drained the tank and removed the tee piece. All looked ok. There was a hand valve below this, I removed it and it was stuck closed. I removed it and Freed it open. Am I best to replace this or will it be ok now that I have cleared it out?
The help has been top class lads, really appreciate it
https://ibb.co/BPjWtKF
https://ibb.co/z45HWKs
https://ibb.co/LkhG12m

John.G

Valve should be fine but someone must have closed it at some stage, maybe when moving the stove?, you should be good to go now hopefully.

CoBo55

Very strange there's a valve on the feed into the system, it's supposed to be a clear straight run from the tank to the lowest point with the minimum of unions. Anyway you have what you have and opening that valve should allow the water to flow.

Wearb

It could have been fitted and closed to prevent pump-over, depending on position of circ pump in relation to F+E pipes. Would be a strange way of doing it, but a possibility.
When leaving it open, keep an eye out for pump-over when system starts and also when hot and heating running.

John.G

I wonder how was the system (half) refilled with this valve closed in view of "I had to move a stove in the kitchen while we were getting new floors which has a back boiler so had to be drained." All will be revealed shortly.

CoBo55

John.G wrote: »

I wonder how was the system (half) refilled with this valve closed in view of "I had to move a stove in the kitchen while we were getting new floors which has a back boiler so had to be drained." All will be revealed shortly.

That is the million dollar question..

dar_cool

Thanks a million guys, all rads working perfectly now. The stove in the kitchen looks like it's fed off that f&e tank aswell so that valve would have been closed and build up of crud prevented it from opening properly again

CoBo55

dar_cool wrote: »

Thanks a million guys, all rads working perfectly now. The stove in the kitchen looks like it's fed off that f&e tank aswell so that valve would have been closed and build up of crud prevented it from opening properly again

Are you leaving it open?

dar_cool

Yeah I presume it has to be left open?

Wearb

John.G wrote: »

I wonder how was the system (half) refilled with this valve closed in view of "I had to move a stove in the kitchen while we were getting new floors which has a back boiler so had to be drained." All will be revealed shortly.

Perhaps refilled when vents opened on upstairs rads?

John.G

dar_cool wrote: »

Yeah I presume it has to be left open?

Just a bit curious.....is there another line coming off that T without a isol valve? a pic would be nice. Also be happy that there is no pump over through the vent with boiler on.

CoBo55

dar_cool wrote: »

Yeah I presume it has to be left open?

By right it shouldn't be there at all but as was said earlier maybe it was put in to prevent pumping. Keep an eye on the overflow for hot water being pushed out. Hopefully all will be ok.

John.G

Wearb wrote: »

Perhaps refilled when vents opened on upstairs rads?

These systems always throw up interesting conundrums such as in this case the cylinder coil was circulating but no rad circulation.

Wearb

John.G wrote: »

These systems always throw up interesting conundrums such as in this case the cylinder coil was circulating but no rad circulation.

Yep. Could be resistance in rads due to locksheilds, trvs etc. easier path through coil, maybe.

dar_cool

There's some pictures there, could anyone tell me what the motorised valve is for? It's controlled by a manual switch and previous owners said it was for upstairs/downstairs heating? I want to upgrade these at some point to a Drayton wiser type system
Edit: the motorised valve is in a cabinet next to the boiler.
The T piece goes down onto another T piece which goes into the side of the cylinder (previous owner said this was for hot water? From the oil boiler?
https://ibb.co/CJ8xPt4
https://ibb.co/y0C3gML
https://ibb.co/kBgfqfn

CoBo55

John.G wrote: »

These systems always throw up interesting conundrums such as in this case the cylinder coil was circulating but no rad circulation.

They always do strange things when the water is low. Moved a rad in my own house on Wednesday, the air always gathers in one radiator upstairs and the centre core (it's a sealed system) it always needs to sit overnight to get the last few bubbles out and the pressure to stabilise.

John.G

dar_cool wrote: »

There's some pictures there, could anyone tell me what the motorised valve is for? It's controlled by a manual switch and previous owners said it was for upstairs/downstairs heating? I want to upgrade these at some point to a Drayton wiser type system
Edit: the motorised valve is in a cabinet next to the boiler.
The T piece goes down onto another T piece which goes into the side of the cylinder (previous owner said this was for hot water? From the oil boiler?
https://ibb.co/CJ8xPt4
https://ibb.co/y0C3gML
https://ibb.co/kBgfqfn

If the first picture is that isolation valve then if shut there is no filling path anywhere so mystery almost solved.

Re the motorised valve, post the details, it might be a 3 way diverter valve so you may have upstairs or downstairs rads only or upstairs and downstairs or hot water cylinder only or some variation of this.