MGTOW = “men going their own way”

iptba

I know there is already a thread on men's rights, but really MGTOW is something quite specific and elsewhere on the Internet, discussions and discussion forums are very often separate.

Also, women can be interested in men's rights, just as men can be interested in women's rights and feminism, but MGTOW is pretty much just for men.

iptba

There is a hit piece on MGTOW in the Irish Times this week:

The rise of a toxic male separatist movement who hate women
The idea began on the fringes of the internet – so how has it made it all the way to the White House?
Wed, Aug 26, 2020, 12:38

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/the-rise-of-a-toxic-male-separatist-movement-who-hate-women-1.4339250

TheBoyConor

In my opinion, MGTOW is just more moderate version of the Incel movement.
Both are part of the Red Pill subculture.

iptba

TheBoyConor wrote: »

In my opinion, MGTOW is just more moderate version of the Incel movement.

I think that's a lot of people's impression. I looked into one MGTOW forum once and it was a requirement that you had to describe a long-term relationship you had before you could post. Many if not most seemed to be people who had been married and were bitter about the divorce settlement and the like.

IAMAMORON

Hating women is simply taking things too far.

I would be uncomfortable with certain aspects of it, particularly misogyny . It is almost like men acting out in a contrived mode to enable some sort of hate campaign because they feel coerced by natural selection? I want to ride Kate Moss but I don't hate her because she is out of my league?

It is ok to be yourself as a man but why would you waste your time being actively cynical or your energy with ensuring you are living up to Alpha male traits, which cannot be trained or learnt, you either are or you are not. Women have the ultimate power in sexual politics, they always have had, I don't see a few disgruntled incels changing things up. Deal with it.

But there is scope for men to change this up around marriage and family law. They get hammered and it can be quite unfair from what I see. So I understand where the venom is coming from.

I actually find some of the incelosphere sidesplittingly funny, the wikicel is gas, the cartoons are a hoot.

is_that_so

iptba wrote: »

There is a hit piece on MGTOW in this week's Irish Times

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/the-rise-of-a-toxic-male-separatist-movement-who-hate-women-1.4339250

It came from the Guardian originally, so free to read there.

john123470

https://www.goingyourownway.com/mgtow-mgtow/

I read some threads on this site. I guess you will find anything and everything. Some misogny, humour, plain silliness etc.

I think its still healthy to have alternative points of view and places to express them

They are not advocating one goes out and kills women or that all women are inherently evil house grabbers.

What they do seem advocate is that marriage is not the be all / end all. Some views will be extreme but then you'll find extremists everywhere

The overall philosophy I took from this site is that it is perfectly fine for a man to live a single and fulfilled life outside of marriage

D'aint no harm in that ..

IAMAMORON

iptba wrote: »

There is a hit piece on MGTOW in this week's Irish Times

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/the-rise-of-a-toxic-male-separatist-movement-who-hate-women-1.4339250

I was half way through reading the article and then realised it was being written by a woman. That makes me sexist, but I couldn't help thinking I was reading a 1980's tut tut expose on video nasties. The overall tone was quite condescending.

The fact remains that many of the Mgtow behaviours are common enough in certain parts of the world. It is not all about uncovering some internet fad in the US. As I previously posted I find the Incel wiki site really entertaining. The deadpan delivery is hilarious. That does not mean I am influenced by it, I just like reading funny or comedic things. Check out the cartoons, a blast.

iptba

I do think based on the discussions I have that some are more negative about women than men’s rights discussions. People could get the wrong impression about men’s rights if they were mixed together and seen as one.

BrianD3

The reaction to these MGTOWs (and incels and red pillers) is interesting. The human herd is disgusted by men deemed by the herd to be of low quality - neckbeards etc.

It also feels threatened when slightly higher status men refuse to play the game of "manning up" and being a good little provider that gets married, raises children and then dies when they have outlived their usefulness.

Men are routinely shamed for
-being allegedly useless
-not being good with women/being virgins/paying for sex
-not having impressive careers
-living at home
-not being tall enough
-having a small penis
-balding
etc.

All of the above criticisms are likely to be fired at MGTOWs. You're not getting married because nobody will have you not because of choice - loser! And now you hate women because of it - you even bigger loser!

iptba

BrianD3 wrote: »

The reaction to these MGTOWs (and incels and red pillers) is interesting. The human herd is disgusted by men deemed by the herd to be of low quality - neckbeards etc.

It also feels threatened when slightly higher status men refuse to play the game of "manning up" and being a good little provider that gets married, raises children and then dies when they have outlived their usefulness.

Men are routinely shamed for
-being allegedly useless
-not being good with women/being virgins/paying for sex
-not having impressive careers
-living at home
-not being tall enough
-having a small penis
-balding
etc.

All of the above criticisms are likely to be fired at MGTOWs. You're not getting married because nobody will have you not because of choice - loser! And now you hate women because of it - you even bigger loser!

You've reminded me of the following list: I'm not sure whether it includes all the shaming tactics you mentioned:
‘The Catalogue of Anti-Male Shaming Tactics’
https://exposingfeminism.wordpress.com/shaming-tactics/

Man with broke phone

The lads who didnt like girls used to join the priesthood or buy a house with their male cousin or uncle (who nobody knew before they started living together).

Now they have another beard to wear.

FintanMcluskey

Man with broke phone wrote: »

The lads who didnt like girls used to join the priesthood or buy a house with their male cousin or uncle (who nobody knew before they started living together).

Now they have another beard to wear.

Yeah absolutely, and its perfectly ok to grow that beard.

To many of my friend's and collegues have ended up in sexless, loveless marriages due to entering matrimony on the basis of some fantasy portrayed in the media.

MGTOW, while the online forum does have militants, essentially pushes the message to focus on yourself, and that marriage is not happiness, its a choice.

Man with broke phone

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Yeah absolutely, and its perfectly ok to grow that beard.

To many of my friend's and collegues have ended up in sexless, loveless marriages due to entering matrimony on the basis of some fantasy portrayed in the media.

MGTOW, while the online forrum does have militants, essentially pushes the message to focus on yourself, and that marriage is not happiness, its a choice.

Never marry out of desparation but what if a mgtow lad met the most perfect woman of all time, could he change his mind or is he a pariah, what if he gets lonely and a girl who isnt perfect wants to try make him happy? Hes probably not perfect either but together they are happy 70 per cent of the time , 10 per cent middling, 10 percent restless and argueing the rest.

Is life black and white?

FintanMcluskey

Man with broke phone wrote: »

Never marry out of desparation but what if a mgtow lad met the most perfect woman of all time, could he change his mind or is he a pariah, what if he gets lonely and a girl who isnt perfect wants to try make him happy? Hes probably not perfect either but together they are happy 70 per cent of the time , 10 per cent middling, 10 percent restless and argueing the rest.

Is life black and white?

Exactly. The "perfect" partner doesn't exist. Thats the message.

Its not black and white.

Its about understanding.

Understanding that when you marry someone, you are marrying them and committing to them as they are now, despite the fact they will change over the course of their lives.

So the now, will be much different in 10 years time, so your love must adapt. But it quiet possibly wont.

Throw in mortgages, bills, kids, life and things change.

If that relationship breaks down, the man usually gets screwed.

MGTOW educates men on risk analysis of relationships and marriage, which although pragmatic, is a worthwhile exercise for some, who seem to enter marriage totally clueless.

H3llR4iser

It's a bit of a conundrum really - the media would want everyone to stand back, point and laugh at "incel", MGTOW and the whole "red pill" thing, plastering labels and accusations all over them - but the reality is that the situation is much more complex and varied, with a lot of the criticism/negativity being just straight up playschool bullying - "hey, look at the sad nerd who can't get a woman!" stuff.

A good portion of the MGTOW "movement" really is just about pointing out prejudice and injustice men often face and have to shoulder in silence, in the most classic of the "shut up, man up and take it" fashion. It's not just "bitter divorcees hating women", a lot of very good, valid arguments are out there about how your average dude might end up ruining his life by just believing that being a good man, working hard and following society "expectations" would work out for them.

I've recently run into this guy on Youtube purely by chance - I mostly just follow a few science & tech channels, I believe this one snuck in when clicking some clips linked here. He has some rough edges, but in general, his views are quite fair and planted in reality - and yet, he'd certainly be classified as "MGTOW"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_HKg5UBoig&t

(I've linked that specific video because it IS quite funny)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSRRU_x7lhg

(this one too - but check the whole channel if you got time)

1874

I came across that guy on youtube myself, listened to some of his clips
I would have thought he has a fairly balanced view

That article almost supports the views of such a group (edit in how it attacks them), Im really beginning to steer that way myself. I dont know about the writer, but Im of the opinion that if such views were printed in an article about women who wanted to step away from traditional roles and then that they'd be taken to task about it, well I dont think that would happen, but if it did, it would be pounced on.
I don't get the issue if a man or women doesnt want to engage in a traditional relationship or one at all, it does seem guys will come off worse in many regards.

I don't see what the problem is. It seems no matter what men do, it's open to ridicule, especially by women like Laura Bates who write books titled Men Who Hate Women. She wrote the article linked above.

Nice guys are mocked. Friendzoned guys are mocked. A man whose wife cheats on them is mocked. Cuckholds are mocked. Men who can't get it up are mocked. Men with small dicks are mocked. Bald men are mocked. Men who wear make up are mocked. Men who post pictures while they're in the gym are mocked. Men who leave office doors open are mocked. Men who can't afford child support are mocked. Men being with younger women are mocked. Men who go out with Asian women are mocked. Men who use prostitutes are mocked. Sugerdaddies are mocked. Men who live at home are mocked. Men who can't drive are mocked. And now men who just want to retreat from women are mocked and accused of misogyny.

At some point, you just realise that the world is full of complete dickheads whose opinions don't matter. Do whatever makes you happy and just treat it as a victory if you piss off someone like Laura Bates.

In fairness, men posting pictures of themselves at the gym should be mocked..

ThunbergsAreGo

is_that_so wrote: »

It came from the Guardian originally, so free to read there.

Big surprise there......

BrianD3

H3llR4iser wrote: »

I've recently run into this guy on Youtube purely by chance - I mostly just follow a few science & tech channels, I believe this one snuck in when clicking some clips linked here. He has some rough edges, but in general, his views are quite fair and planted in reality - and yet, he'd certainly be classified as "MGTOW"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_HKg5UBoig&t

(I've linked that specific video because it IS quite funny)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSRRU_x7lhg

(this one too - but check the whole channel if you got time)

Thanks for that, I hadn't come across him before. Seems like a wise chap with good life experience and measured views.

Lots of content about finances and saving too. I think there are huge overlaps between MGTOW and

• the FIRE movement
• frugality, anti consumerism
• debt avoidance
• F*ck you money

On the other hand I see that the UK "wedding industry" is looking for extra assistance from the government (aka the taxpayer) due to the effect Covid-19 has had on weddings. Jesus wept.

Mister Vain

Deleted User wrote: »

In fairness, men posting pictures of themselves at the gym should be mocked..

Should women doing that be mocked too?

Mister Vain

Mister Vain wrote: »

Should women doing that be mocked too?

No..they should be encouraged..

FintanMcluskey

Deleted User wrote: »

No..they should be encouraged..

Ironically thats another message in MGTOW, don't objectify women!

ancapailldorcha

Deleted User wrote: »

At some point, you just realise that the world is full of complete dickheads whose opinions don't matter. Do whatever makes you happy and just treat it as a victory if you piss off someone like Laura Bates.

This really is it right here. I forget the exact moment I made the decision but I had to stop clicking on the Guardian's website unless it was a link to a specific news item. There was just that much wailing from privately educated middle and upper class women for it to be worth reading for free, much less giving in to their panhandling.

As I see it, women have moved up in society. Today's generation of 20-35 year old women have much more opportunities for their careers and travels than their mothers did. The problem is that the attitude to dating has remained static. Many women still expect to be pursued, wined and dined while making no effort. Men would be rated on their ability to provide a stable income and lifestyle but of course now, they're redundant in this regard as many women will be aggressively pursuing careers so they don't really need a provider so we now see men getting rejected for all sorts of petty reasons while application of the same standard the other way arouses accusations of sexism and misogyny.

People can have whatever standards they want as long as they realise that dismissing anyone who falls short means a high probability of ending up alone. I was hoping that feminism might have shown women that they can make the first move but that doesn't appear to have happened though of course YMMV.

Richard Hillman

Is there a difference between MGTOW and just genuinely giving up?

I'm mid 30s. I pretty much gave up in my late 20s in terms of persuing women and then genuinely gave up about 3-4 years ago. I'm pretty much of the opinion that if you are a catch, you'll be caught early on (and that works with both sides).

Yes, OK women probably do have very high and sometimes unlikely expectations, theyll admit that themselves. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. They want somebody that will keep them happy but maybe being single and unlikely to find the right person is better than settling for somebody that doesn't match what they want.

The way I look at it as an analogy between women in the dating game and MGTOW. You have a woman and a man sitting at a pier with a fishing rod. There's nothing to be found. The man walks away grumbling. The woman stays at the pier with the fishing rod in constant hope and won't give up on it. I probably have more respect for the woman that won't give up.

Me, I walked away ages ago. No grumbles, I just accepted that there are no fish in that particular stretch of water. I went inland and started a self sufficient farm where I grow my own crops :pac:

I think the MTGOW forums and videos are just stupid. Subconsciously I think they feel that if they act that way they will attract women. It defeats the purpose of what they think they are trying to do.

I am probably what the natural MTGOW was before the nutters took over. I gave up and went my own way well before I even heard of MTGOW. I just didn't think there was a phrase for it. I just accepted that I do not fill the criteria. I'm not going to have a well paying job, I will never own a house and I'm not going to grow 3-4 inches taller :pac: I had tons of relationships with women when I was younger but the criteria changes when you're older. And I would consider myself good looking. I'm not a munter :pac:

I don't complain about it. I don't see women as some sort of enemy. I used to work in a predominantly female work place before I lost my job and made plenty of female friends there. I got on with pretty much with everybody. Some would even want to try and set me up with their friends but I gave them a solid "absolutely no chance".

JasonStatham

America-imported-****e.

Richard Hillman

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Is there a difference between MGTOW and just genuinely giving up?

I am not sure it is a difference. I think MGTOW actually describes a spectrum of people and those that have simply given up are one of the points on that spectrum. Men who hate women for one reason or another is another point on that spectrum.

There are others too - and I put myself firmly in this category - who think that finding a woman and a relationship should be an event on their path through live rather than a destination of any path in life.

When you focus on a target/destination in life - things almost invariably happen as you walk that path. Some good some bad. I made a _very_ conscious shift in priorities in my mid20s where I changed some of my targets to side events and vice versa.

And finding a woman very much moved from a primary target to something I left to to the fates. Something I said "These are my new targets and goals in life and if a woman falls into step with me as I walk this new path - thats great". My primary goals became _very_ specific and were nothing to do with women. So in that sense I was MGTOW. But I was entirely open and welcoming of the prospect that women would happen to me eventually. I was just going to do nothing to contrive that.

The rest I guess is history as a few people here know already and are bored of hearing. I am in a relationship with two women and have 3 of 4 planned kids and a canine of sorts and a house and I am still pursuing my primary goals. Some more successfully than others.

Church on Tuesday

It's a vastly unhealthy mindset for men.

FintanMcluskey

Deleted User wrote: »

I am in a relationship with two women and have 3 of 4 planned kids and a canine of sorts and a house and I am still pursuing my primary goals. Some more successfully than others.

Sorry for highlighting this, are you saying you are currently in a relationship with 2 women and have 4 kids?

FintanMcluskey

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Sorry for highlighting this, are you saying you are currently in a relationship with 2 women and have 4 kids?

3 kids. 4 planned.