How is China getting on?

fly_agaric

beauf wrote: »

It was more about how human rights abuses and societal problems would play a part in a pandemic.

I didn't see the relevance to the discussion at all really but thanks for the link and the new term anyway.
On a macro scale, China must be coping fairly well. They don't have total/absolute control of information that gets out and they have their hooks deep into the world's economy & supply chains for every kind of manufacturing. If they were riddled with Covid-19, their healthcare systems were collapsing and large proportions of their citizens were under "lockdown" (no doubt strictly enforced at point of a gun beyond the wildest dreams of any gung-ho guard here) but information about all that was hidden the impact would be felt outside somehow. A shutdown/slowdown of Chinese industry etc. was definitely felt around the world afair in the early phase of the pandemic.

Ardillaun

beauf wrote: »

Why is a war coming? What have they told you to say?

A pandemic is a national emergency. At this stage, it should be obvious to all what happens when we don’t take it seriously enough.

Ardillaun

fly_agaric wrote: »

I didn't see the relevance to the discussion at all really but thanks for the link and the new term anyway.
On a macro scale, China must be coping fairly well. They don't have total/absolute control of information that gets out and they have their hooks deep into the world's economy & supply chains for every kind of manufacturing. If they were riddled with Covid-19, their healthcare systems were collapsing and large proportions of their citizens were under "lockdown" (no doubt strictly enforced at point of a gun beyond the wildest dreams of any gung-ho guard here) but information about all that was hidden the impact would be felt outside somehow. A shutdown/slowdown of Chinese industry etc. was definitely felt around the world afair in the early phase of the pandemic.

The powers that be in Beijing saw Covid as potentially an existential threat to their authority and acted accordingly.

Ardillaun

beauf wrote: »

I note you're not disagreeing about crying wolf

Perhaps you would like to elaborate there.

Ardillaun

My basic point: you can’t counter an opponent unless you understand their strengths as well as their weaknesses. The Chinese regime’s environmental and human rights record is appalling, making pandemics more likely, but its response to this pandemic (after the first few months) has been impressive. The CCP and democracies are in constant competition and the rest of the world is watching.

beauf

Ardillaun wrote: »

The powers that be in Beijing saw Covid as potentially an existential threat to their authority and acted accordingly.

They made it disappear along with anyone who says differently.

agoodpunt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMVjskBB4w
They are savages when eating I have seen eating areas after they have dinned to be power washed
Germans may like there steaks rare, they chinese like the food still with a hearthbeat

beauf

fly_agaric wrote: »

I didn't see the relevance to the discussion at all really but thanks for the link and the new term anyway.
On a macro scale, China must be coping fairly well. They don't have total/absolute control of information that gets out and they have their hooks deep into the world's economy & supply chains for every kind of manufacturing. If they were riddled with Covid-19, their healthcare systems were collapsing and large proportions of their citizens were under "lockdown" (no doubt strictly enforced at point of a gun beyond the wildest dreams of any gung-ho guard here) but information about all that was hidden the impact would be felt outside somehow. A shutdown/slowdown of Chinese industry etc. was definitely felt around the world afair in the early phase of the pandemic.

The implication is that the regime is exactly the right system to counter a pandemic. But that's not much use if it keeps causing them. We do know they are massively dependant on exports. But they've managed to shut down the market they sell into globally. But yet they appear uneffected by that either. At least according to their figures.

fly_agaric

beauf wrote: »

The implication is that the regime is exactly the right system to counter a pandemic. But that's not much use if it keeps causing them. We do know they are massively dependant on exports. But they've managed to shut down the market they sell into globally. But yet they appear uneffected by that either. At least according to their figures.

They can of course (and probably do) lie about their official statistics.
However sectors of the economy in Europe/US can be shut down or on go-slow but we still need physical "stuff" (incl. medical PPE that might not be up to snuff!) and China thanks to the shortsighted economic policies I mentioned earlier makes an awful lot of stuff for us now.

What Europe is doing right now to combat Covid-19 does not seem to be working so well. I think you have to admit that.

Being completely unable to look to others (including those whose values are antithetical to your own) who have had success where you failed is a reckless & dangerous form of arrogance that can lead to destruction of countries & societies.

We can examine what China has done or preferably, what Asian countries which are more democratic than China have done for this specific problem, compare it to what we are doing and try and learn and apply it (adjusting for ones own society).

That does not imply an endorsement of China, other Asian countries or their politics.

xhomelezz

Ardillaun wrote: »

Our system is superior to China's in many ways but they and other East Asian countries have done far better than us in the West in this pandemic. There's no way that even the CCP could hide large outbreaks of Covid if they were still occurring. Their ability to test an entire city of millions of people in a few days is something we could all learn from. Next time a nasty virus appears we may have to go into at least full Taiwanese mode to stop it.

I do agree with most of your post apart from highlighted, our system..

Supercell

beauf wrote: »

They made it disappear along with anyone who says differently.

Sorry but that's just not true, my wife has family and friends in Wuhan and Guangzhou, it is gone they are living normal lives again.
My wife was just telling me that her mother was worried that one case was recently found in Guangzhou, ONE! Google Guangzhou if you haven't heard of it, it's not a small city!
Everyone in China knows what happened in Wuhan, they are terrified of this virus, if my wife's family and friends are saying life is back to normal in Wuhan and Guangzhou I believe them.

beauf

fly_agaric wrote: »

....What Europe is doing right now to combat Covid-19 does not seem to be working so well. I think you have to admit that.
....

It did work. The numbers fell.

The problem is that people ignored the lighter restrictions, so now have to go back to the more severe ones.

beauf

Supercell wrote: »

Sorry but that's just not true, my wife has family and friends in Wuhan and Guangzhou, it is gone they are living normal lives again.
My wife was just telling me that her mother was worried that one case was recently found in Guangzhou, ONE! Google Guangzhou if you haven't heard of it, it's not a small city!
Everyone in China knows what happened in Wuhan, they are terrified of this virus, if my wife's family and friends are saying life is back to normal in Wuhan and Guangzhou I believe them.

I said they made Covid disappear. You seem to be agreeing with me...

caoty

Interesting thread to read, entertaining on occasions. When somebody gets brainwashed, it takes multiple "shock treatments" to have the slightest chance, if ever, to remove him/her from that state of "self-confidence", often at a great cost.

fly_agaric

beauf wrote: »

It did work. The numbers fell.

The problem is that people ignored the lighter restrictions, so now have to go back to the more severe ones.

Think we agree here really...that is part of what we can learn from the relatively successful countries. Authoritarian sounding as it is, public health restrictions/policies need to be enforced where possible by someone, not just provided as a "good citizen" recommendation. It is a waste of time over the long term ending up in more drastic restrictions & disruptions to recover the situation.

beauf

You can always move to somewhere that has the regime you want to live under.

Qiaonasen

New outbreak now in China. https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3107016/coronavirus-chinas-kashgar-test-all-700000-residents-after

Ardillaun

beauf wrote: »

I said they made Covid disappear. You seem to be agreeing with me...

You said a bit more than that.

beauf

He said it was gone. I said disappeared.

beauf

beauf wrote: »

You can always move to somewhere that has the regime you want to live under.

No, you can't. They have proper controls due to Covid-19.

beauf

Deleted User wrote: »

No, you can't. They have proper controls due to Covid-19.

Then its not gone. Which is it?

Also is this wrong then?
https://www.europeanchamber.com.cn/en/national-news/3188/travel_policies_to_and_from_cities_in_china

beauf

beauf wrote: »

Then its not gone. Which is it?

What? It's not gone from the world, no. Is that your question?

beauf

Deleted User wrote: »

What? It's not gone from the world, no. Is that your question?

It seems like its not gone from China either.
It also seems you can travel with certain restrictions.

beauf

beauf wrote: »

It seems like its not gone from China either.
It also seems you can travel with certain restrictions.

Ok.

Qiaonasen

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/26/china-new-coronavirus-outbreak-detected-in-xinjiang-city-of-kashgar

The biggest and most important line in that article.

"China does not classify asymptomatic cases as “confirmed cases” and so far, no cases of people with symptoms have been reported."

fly_agaric

beauf wrote: »

You can always move to somewhere that has the regime you want to live under.

Go "move somewhere else" if you don't really agree with [a] government policy.
The "yes we have no bananas" response. Very CCP of you.:pac:

beauf

fly_agaric wrote: »

Go "move somewhere else" if you don't really agree with [a] government policy.
The "yes we have no bananas" response. Very CCP of you.:pac:

Well it's a variation of show me the money. If you want to know what people believe. Look at how they put one's money where one's mouth is. I think a lot of people who a fawning over China wouldn't live there in million years. That they haven't chosen to move speaks volumes.

That's not to say that China isn't a good place to live. Its lifted alot of its population out of poverty at a time when the wealth inequality is for the first increasing in the West. There's a lot of wealth in China and in some ways more modern than the West, and especially Ireland. But it built on fairly dubious foundations considering state owns all property and basic civil liberties are non existent. Never mind how it controls information.

It's has a looming problem in that is economy is built on exports and that market has disappeared with Covid. It can always be undercut. At some point the both the economy and peoples liberties will come to a head. I guess that's why so much Chinese wealth is invested overseas. There's also the issues of its military expansion.

When it comes to Covid. It's like the kid who constantly lies and fibs. Is constantly trying to be taken seriously, but can't understand why no one believes them.

beauf

Qiaonasen wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/26/china-new-coronavirus-outbreak-detected-in-xinjiang-city-of-kashgar

The biggest and most important line in that article.

"China does not classify asymptomatic cases as “confirmed cases” and so far, no cases of people with symptoms have been reported."

China seems to think if it publishes incredible statistics everyone will be dazzled and not look to closely.

That's not too say they aren't capable of Incredible feats. They most certainly are. But that's a different issue.

gozunda

How is that China seems to have avoided the near worldwide resurgence of Covid in the last couple of months?

Total deaths in China since the start of the pandemic are given at just over 4000 people - out of a population of approx 1.4 billion people

Italy has had just over 70,000 deaths out of a population of approx 60 million.

For last day reported for China (19 Dec) Covid Deaths = 23

Same date for Italy. Covid Deaths = 553

Looks like China it had has won the war with Covid or at least that's what we are hearing.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-55355401

Fr_Dougal

China’s pants are on fire.