Boomer Wealth

Wanderer78

i realise this isnt directed towards the youth in ireland, but....

https://twitter.com/MkBlyth/status/1301535313479831552

lainey_d_123

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i realise this isnt directed towards the youth in ireland, but....

https://twitter.com/MkBlyth/status/1301535313479831552

This is basically all that needs to be said, and it's been this way for a good few years now.

It doesn't even tell the whole story - rents were far more affordable back then in relation to salary, making it much easier for people to save up while renting.

The reality for people now is making a fairly poor salary in their twenties, shelling out half their income on rent and simply not having enough left over to save the deposit needed, which is far higher (even adjusted for inflation) than it was then.

People who did back then might think they made sacrifices and had it really hard, but the statistics are there in black and white that the goalposts have moved to the point that buying a home before you're 30 or even 35 (if you want to buy in a city) has gone from being 'tough but doable' to close to impossible.

Wanderer78

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

This is basically all that needs to be said, and it's been this way for a good few years now.

It doesn't even tell the whole story - rents were far more affordable back then in relation to salary, making it much easier for people to save up while renting.

The reality for people now is making a fairly poor salary in their twenties, shelling out half their income on rent and simply not having enough left over to save the deposit needed, which is far higher (even adjusted for inflation) than it was then.

People who did back then might think they made sacrifices and had it really hard, but the statistics are there in black and white that the goalposts have moved to the point that buying a home before you're 30 or even 35 (if you want to buy in a city) has gone from being 'tough but doable' to close to impossible.

the 'rent seeking' has to stop, its destroying planet, and not just environmentally, id also highly recommend blyths work

lainey_d_123

Frustrating to see people on that thread STILL spewing out rubbish about travel and coffee.

The price of travel has come down so low that it's practically irrelevant when it comes to saving for a deposit. If I go on one 'big ' holiday a year, that's about £1000 tops, all in, including flights. I forego most other 'small' luxuries to put money into the holiday fund - for example, every time I take coffee and lunch to work instead of buying it (which tbh is almost always), I put the money I would have spent buying it out into the holiday fund. Every time I cycle to work instead of getting the train, same. All I need to go on a lovely holiday is an average of £83 saved a month, and almost all of that comes from saving in this way.

To buy a modest, normal, one-bed flat within reasonable travelling distance of my work and without spending a fortune on train fares, I'd need about 40K. £1K a year is a drop in the ocean. I could forego my yearly holiday, which is my only real luxury and helps my mental health immensely, for what? So I can save 1/40 of what I need?

Back then, a holiday might have cost 1/4 or even 1/2 of what people were saving annually for a deposit, in which case, yes, it's a no brainer, you just suck it up and buy the house and put up with a few years of frugality. But now 'luxuries' are dirt cheap and essentials are hugely expensive. Someone who is in their twenties and only able to save £83 a month in total (this is not at all unusual - there were times in my twenties I couldn't even manage that) would need 40 years to save for a deposit on a flat. Is it any wonder they choose to spend that £83 a month to put towards a holiday, or a few brunches with friends, or a festival ticket?

arccosh

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i realise this isnt directed towards the youth in ireland, but....

https://twitter.com/MkBlyth/status/1301535313479831552

woohoo

atticu

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

Frustrating to see people on that thread STILL spewing out rubbish about travel and coffee.

The price of travel has come down so low that it's practically irrelevant when it comes to saving for a deposit. If I go on one 'big ' holiday a year, that's about £1000 tops, all in, including flights. I forego most other 'small' luxuries to put money into the holiday fund - for example, every time I take coffee and lunch to work instead of buying it (which tbh is almost always), I put the money I would have spent buying it out into the holiday fund. Every time I cycle to work instead of getting the train, same. All I need to go on a lovely holiday is an average of £83 saved a month, and almost all of that comes from saving in this way.

To buy a modest, normal, one-bed flat within reasonable travelling distance of my work and without spending a fortune on train fares, I'd need about 40K. £1K a year is a drop in the ocean. I could forego my yearly holiday, which is my only real luxury and helps my mental health immensely, for what? So I can save 1/40 of what I need?

Back then, a holiday might have cost 1/4 or even 1/2 of what people were saving annually for a deposit, in which case, yes, it's a no brainer, you just suck it up and buy the house and put up with a few years of frugality. But now 'luxuries' are dirt cheap and essentials are hugely expensive. Someone who is in their twenties and only able to save £83 a month in total (this is not at all unusual - there were times in my twenties I couldn't even manage that) would need 40 years to save for a deposit on a flat. Is it any wonder they choose to spend that £83 a month to put towards a holiday, or a few brunches with friends, or a festival ticket?

You are right, I mean, we all deserve luxuries.
We will let someone else take care of the essentials for us.

And who decided that it would be a good idea to have equity and allow the women out to work?
It seems that now people think that that change was a bad idea (I don’t).

Then we have compound interest, which it seems that it is better to avoid discussing that.
You do understand that if you have two people of the same age and one (person A) saves €100 per month, every month from the age of 20, the other (person saves €200 per month from the age of 30, at the age of 60 persons A will have more savings.
But that is OK, because person B enjoyed a few holidays, and a few other luxuries and now has a right to moan and complain about person A having more money.

OwlsZat

After Wanderer78's post with the UK figures decided to see how Ireland measured up.

The average salary in Ireland is €39,000 (2018 CSO figure). Average house price is €250,766. 6.5 times average earnings (last 3 months 2018). A mortgage gives you 3.5 times earnings leaving you having to save 3 times your yearly income to afford a house. So on average salary of 40k that person needs to save 120k to buy a house! All while paying the 2nd most expensive rent in Europe!

HerrKuehn

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

Frustrating to see people on that thread STILL spewing out rubbish about travel and coffee.

The price of travel has come down so low that it's practically irrelevant when it comes to saving for a deposit. If I go on one 'big ' holiday a year, that's about £1000 tops, all in, including flights. I forego most other 'small' luxuries to put money into the holiday fund - for example, every time I take coffee and lunch to work instead of buying it (which tbh is almost always), I put the money I would have spent buying it out into the holiday fund. Every time I cycle to work instead of getting the train, same. All I need to go on a lovely holiday is an average of £83 saved a month, and almost all of that comes from saving in this way.

To buy a modest, normal, one-bed flat within reasonable travelling distance of my work and without spending a fortune on train fares, I'd need about 40K. £1K a year is a drop in the ocean. I could forego my yearly holiday, which is my only real luxury and helps my mental health immensely, for what? So I can save 1/40 of what I need?

Back then, a holiday might have cost 1/4 or even 1/2 of what people were saving annually for a deposit, in which case, yes, it's a no brainer, you just suck it up and buy the house and put up with a few years of frugality. But now 'luxuries' are dirt cheap and essentials are hugely expensive. Someone who is in their twenties and only able to save £83 a month in total (this is not at all unusual - there were times in my twenties I couldn't even manage that) would need 40 years to save for a deposit on a flat. Is it any wonder they choose to spend that £83 a month to put towards a holiday, or a few brunches with friends, or a festival ticket?

You get a few smart comments on here about avocado toast etc. But at the end of the day, you saving or spending makes zero difference to anyone but you. You can decide to do whatever you like with your salary.

Yellow_Fern

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i realise this isnt directed towards the youth in ireland, but....

https://twitter.com/MkBlyth/status/1301535313479831552

They are startling figures but there is a few complications. Those average student debt figures in 1970 probably wasn't 0 but more importantly the average student in 1970 was strictly upper middle class who were very economically cushioned, but today huge numbers across the spectrum go to university for less and less benefit so you are comparing apples and oranges. What is true is that houses are much more expensive and that is very bad and that unemployment is becoming more a problem (partially as welfare is too generous). If you want to see a low unemployment rate look at a developing country.

blanch152

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

Frustrating to see people on that thread STILL spewing out rubbish about travel and coffee.

The price of travel has come down so low that it's practically irrelevant when it comes to saving for a deposit. If I go on one 'big ' holiday a year, that's about £1000 tops, all in, including flights. I forego most other 'small' luxuries to put money into the holiday fund - for example, every time I take coffee and lunch to work instead of buying it (which tbh is almost always), I put the money I would have spent buying it out into the holiday fund. Every time I cycle to work instead of getting the train, same. All I need to go on a lovely holiday is an average of £83 saved a month, and almost all of that comes from saving in this way.

To buy a modest, normal, one-bed flat within reasonable travelling distance of my work and without spending a fortune on train fares, I'd need about 40K. £1K a year is a drop in the ocean. I could forego my yearly holiday, which is my only real luxury and helps my mental health immensely, for what? So I can save 1/40 of what I need?

Back then, a holiday might have cost 1/4 or even 1/2 of what people were saving annually for a deposit, in which case, yes, it's a no brainer, you just suck it up and buy the house and put up with a few years of frugality. But now 'luxuries' are dirt cheap and essentials are hugely expensive. Someone who is in their twenties and only able to save £83 a month in total (this is not at all unusual - there were times in my twenties I couldn't even manage that) would need 40 years to save for a deposit on a flat. Is it any wonder they choose to spend that £83 a month to put towards a holiday, or a few brunches with friends, or a festival ticket?

So you need a holiday for your mental health, but people 40 years ago who couldn't afford a holiday just had to suck it up regardless of the effect on their mental health?

Sense of entitlement much?

Wanderer78

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

They are starling figures but there is a few problems. Those average student debt figures in 1970 probably wasn't 0 but more importantly the average student in 1970 was strictly upper middle class who were very economically cushioned, but today huge numbers across the spectrum go to university for less and less benefit so you are comparing apples and oranges. What is true is that houses are much more expensive and that unemployment is becoming more a problem (partially as welfare is too generous). If you want to see a low unemployment rate look at a developing country.

usual conservative nonsense, you may have little or no knowledge of the life of the average person in ireland, let alone those on welfare!

welfare is so generous, covid payments were increased literately over night!

Wanderer78

blanch152 wrote: »

So you need a holiday for your mental health, but people 40 years ago who couldn't afford a holiday just had to suck it up regardless of the effect on their mental health?

Sense of entitlement much?

i know mental health professionals that had to take 'extended holidays', due to their own mental health issues!

HerrKuehn

OwlsZat wrote: »

After Wanderer78's post with the UK figures decided to see how Ireland measured up.

The average salary in Ireland is €39,000 (2018 CSO figure). Average house price is €250,766. 6.5 times average earnings (last 3 months 2018). A mortgage gives you 3.5 times earnings leaving you having to save 3 times your yearly income to afford a house. So on average salary of 40k that person needs to save 120k to buy a house! All while paying the 2nd most expensive rent in Europe!

So, a single average salary is not enough to buy an average house anymore. This is due to dual income households. Also due to the fact that houses today are much higher spec (windows, heating, insulation etc), so they cost more to build.

Lu Tze

OwlsZat wrote: »

After Wanderer78's post with the UK figures decided to see how Ireland measured up.

The average salary in Ireland is €39,000 (2018 CSO figure). Average house price is €250,766. 6.5 times average earnings (last 3 months 2018). A mortgage gives you 3.5 times earnings leaving you having to save 3 times your yearly income to afford a house. So on average salary of 40k that person needs to save 120k to buy a house! All while paying the 2nd most expensive rent in Europe!

Single income buyers are competing now in a market which is typically flooded with dual income buyers, which wasn't the case in the 80s. Taking your numbers for dual income you are looking at needing 3.25 times the average income to buy the average house.

This wasn't causd by boomers pulling up the ladder after them as seems to be the accusation, it's the market reflecting increased purchasing power via dual income, and more affordable monthly payments via cheap credit and longer terms for mortgages compared to the 80s.

You typically can't buy where your parents bought, as there has been 40 years of outward growth on the city since, and the area they are in likely wasn't the well established gentrified area it is now. Some of these places were on the outskirts of the city 40 years ago.

Wanderer78

HerrKuehn wrote: »

So, a single average salary is not enough to buy an average house anymore. This is due to dual income households. Also due to the fact that houses today are much higher spec (windows, heating, insulation etc), so they cost more to build.

largely due to the increasing availability of credit!

GreeBo

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

Our parents' generation spent money on records and CDs -

No, no they didnt.

I grew up in the 80's.
My parents had to scavenge the last 500 punts from relatives to get the deposit over the line.
Holidays were in the caravan that we towed with us to Wexford.
I had 1 second hand car.
Clothes were 90% from older cousins.
Orange juice or McDonalds was a treat.
Like others, we rented the player and the tape for videos for a birthday party.

I cycled to school and college every day. I brought sandwiches with me.
I never bought a cup of tea or anything in my life. I didnt even own a wallet until I was in college and that was for my student card and my banklink card.

Even today I have to remind myself that I can afford to get another glass of Coke with my meal if I want one, I dont have to make one last or be left with nothing.

You list of a ream of things and then discount them as only being 300 or 200 quid.
What you are missing is that these things add up over time.

You say you only had 200 quid a month left over during covid, but I vaguely remember that your qualifications might not be in a field that is teeming with well paid jobs?

lainey_d_123

blanch152 wrote: »

So you need a holiday for your mental health, but people 40 years ago who couldn't afford a holiday just had to suck it up regardless of the effect on their mental health?

Sense of entitlement much?

I don't know if you're a bit slow or just trolling.

I have already addressed that. If you knew you had to save every penny and have no treats, but would have your own home within 2 or 3 years, that's very different to saving every penny and having no treats and STILL having no realistic chance of buying.

If I'd saved £1000 a year every year since I was 25 and able to save that amount, I'd now have £10,000. Ten years of sacrificing every single treat or luxury to still have 3/4 of a deposit to go? Yeah, so worth it. :rolleyes:

Wanderer78

again, most older generations didnt have it easy in ireland growing up, as we were effectively an economic backwater, they worked extremely hard for what the have, and continue to do so, but they didnt work hard to watch the value of those assets grow, in particular housing

GreeBo

GreeBo wrote: »

No, no they didnt.

I grew up in the 80's.?

Well mine did, in fact we still have the large record collection and high end (at the time) hifi system my father bought in the early 80’s. In today’s money the thing would be thousands.

I grew up in the 80’s and 90’s, we had two cars always, went abroad, ate out etc.

Wanderer78

Leilani Fast Windbreak wrote: »

Well mine did, in fact we still have the large record collection and high end (at the time hifi system my father bought in the early 80’s.

same here actually

HerrKuehn

Leilani Fast Windbreak wrote: »

Well mine did, in fact we still have the large record collection and high end (at the time) hifi system my father bought in the early 80’s.

I grew up in the 80’s and 90’s, we had two cars always, went abroad, ate out etc.

Did they buy a house or inherit a farm?

HerrKuehn

HerrKuehn wrote: »

Did they buy a house or inherit a farm?

Built a house on family owned land. I was in my 20’s before the farm was passed on to my father it’s only a side business.

One difference compared to some though is it was always a dual income home. My mother was not a stay at home mother like many would have been back then.

Most of my neighbours would have been similar also, most were two income households in the early 80’s etc.

Just to add I’m far from saying we were rolling in money but my parents were not afraid to borrow money for stuff etc to give us a very good life growing up.

lainey_d_123

GreeBo wrote: »

No, no they didnt.

I grew up in the 80's.
My parents had to scavenge the last 500 punts from relatives to get the deposit over the line.
Holidays were in the caravan that we towed with us to Wexford.
I had 1 second hand car.
Clothes were 90% from older cousins.
Orange juice or McDonalds was a treat.
Like others, we rented the player and the tape for videos for a birthday party.

I cycled to school and college every day. I brought sandwiches with me.
I never bought a cup of tea or anything in my life. I didnt even own a wallet until I was in college and that was for my student card and my banklink card.

Even today I have to remind myself that I can afford to get another glass of Coke with my meal if I want one, I dont have to make one last or be left with nothing.

You list of a ream of things and then discount them as only being 300 or 200 quid.
What you are missing is that these things add up over time.

You say you only had 200 quid a month left over during covid, but I vaguely remember that your qualifications might not be in a field that is teeming with well paid jobs?

My life was like that as well. Except we didn't see it as a hardship because that's the way everyone lived. Flying was incredibly expensive - even a flight to Spain for one single person would probably be more than the mortgage payment, so we never went. Hardly comparable to being able to book a 30 euro Ryanair flight, is it? You must have been especially destitute if your family could never afford even a CD at any point. We bought a second hand CD player in the 90s and bought CDs from time to time. I remember buying a few as a teenager and one single CD was the same price as several months of Netflix or Spotify today.

I didn't say I had £200 a month left over. I see reading ability is in short supply around here. I said I had £200 a month IN ADDITION to what I was already saving each month. Meaning that even being confined to the house and not taking any public transport, no coffees, no lunches, no pub trips, absolutely nothing, that's the only saving I made, showing that any notion that I was living it up and wasting money before is absolute horsesh1t. About £120 of that would have been essential travel to work (it's not safe nor possible for me to cycle all the time), showing just how little I spent on 'luxuries' day to day. My rent is over five times that amount. Do you see where the problem lies? That extra 200 a month is obviously going straight into savings - every little helps, and all that, believe me I am VERY frugal, but it's £2400 (and actually only £960 if you count what was truly 'disposable income') over the year, vs over £14000 spent on rent and bills. Do you not see how the 'little things' are not the problem here?

GreeBo

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

6 months of solid saving almost every penny I earn. You know how much extra I've managed to save every month? About £200. That was my whole disposable income after essentials

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

I'm a single person living in London on an above average salary.

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

So something like 70% of my post tax earnings are gone on basic survival alone, before I even get into trying to save, or having any disposable income.

So you earn about 70K and are spending nearly 3K a month on rent/mortgage?
Seems like you need to move to somewhere you can afford to live?

kowloon

joseywhales wrote: »

I think this is more about housing costs than any other factor, I would argue we have better health which is priceless.

But what is the point in being healthy if I can't afford a TV the size of a shop window?

Wanderer78

GreeBo wrote: »

So you earn about 70K and are spending nearly 3K a month on rent/mortgage?
Seems like you need to move to somewhere you can afford to live?

forcing people to move away from their place of choice, in particular, their place of birth, introduces complex social problems, such as the breakdown of 'social cohesion'

HerrKuehn

Wanderer78 wrote: »

forcing people to move away from their place of choice, in particular, their place of birth, introduces complex social problems, such as the breakdown of 'social cohesion'

she lives in london

lainey_d_123

atticu wrote: »

You are right, I mean, we all deserve luxuries.
We will let someone else take care of the essentials for us.

And who decided that it would be a good idea to have equity and allow the women out to work?
It seems that now people think that that change was a bad idea (I don’t).

Then we have compound interest, which it seems that it is better to avoid discussing that.
You do understand that if you have two people of the same age and one (person A) saves €100 per month, every month from the age of 20, the other (person saves €200 per month from the age of 30, at the age of 60 persons A will have more savings.
But that is OK, because person B enjoyed a few holidays, and a few other luxuries and now has a right to moan and complain about person A having more money.

Have you seen interest rates today? You would nearly be as well sticking your money under a mattress. I have money in a 'high interest savings account' and the interest I've earned from it is laughable. Another person stuck in the 80s.

Wanderer78

HerrKuehn wrote: »

she lives in london

she may still live in london, but she may not have any emotional connection to where she lives, this can cause all sort of complex social problems, and complex mental health issues, we re effectively forcing people into, 'there is no society' or 'we are all self interested'!

lainey_d_123

GreeBo wrote: »

So you earn about 70K and are spending nearly 3K a month on rent/mortgage?
Seems like you need to move to somewhere you can afford to live?

No, and no.

I moved here because even after living costs are taken into account, I'm better off than I was in Dublin, and far better off than I would be working in a 'lower cost of living' city like Manchester or Leeds. The money I have left over after paying for essentials is still more than it would be elsewhere.

But don't let truth and logic get in the way.