Boomer Wealth

Yurt2

joeguevara wrote: »

This was a decent article that looked at real life on the SF budget. It was actually a well reasoned piece, in my opinion that gave some credence to the SF plan but also outlined the difficulties in place:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/election-2020-is-sinn-féin-s-housing-policy-credible-1.4163859

I remember that article. It's not unfair. I'd have the SF policy as far more right than it is wrong and streets ahead of the slop that was offered by other parties.

If you removed party names from housing documents on manifestos, most people would put the spoof stamp on the FG one.

joeguevara

Yurt! wrote: »

I remember that article. It's not unfair. I'd have the SF policy as far more right than it is wrong and streets ahead of the slop that was offered by other parties.

If you removed party names from housing documents on manifestos, most people would put the spoof stamp on the FG one.

It would be an interesting exercise. As far as I remember the Fianna Fail one is much more sympathetic than people would expect.

However, a manifesto is a wish list. Its how its implemented and paid for is the issue.

Yurt2

joeguevara wrote: »

It would be an interesting exercise. As far as I remember the Fianna Fail one is much more sympathetic than people would expect.

However, a manifesto is a wish list. Its how its implemented and paid for is the issue.

It's ambitious, but if one is to step back, that's exactly what's required if this problem isn't to escalate any further.

The affordable housing aspect of the policy is pretty much cost neutral the state as people will be taking mortgages on the property, and is the most important element to it.

Yet, we have people like Eric Cartman and fellow travelers wigging-out about Ballymun ad nauseum. It's like talking to a wall with some people.

Ush1

Yurt! wrote: »

Endorsed by Ireland's leading hosting economists, but not FG flunkies on boards who just fling around mAgIC MoNey TREe when they're cornered. I know who I believe.

Oh wait, aren't you pretending to be a green party supporter this week?

Oliver Callan reckons his numbers are way off.

HerrKuehn

Yurt! wrote: »

Dr Orla Hegarty UCD, Dr Lorcan Sirr TU Dublin; housing economists. Both came out around the election and said SF housing policy was both achievable and could be fulfilled within stated costings per unit.

A poster got egg on their face around the election when they were trying the mAgiC mONey TrEE schtick on this very topic.

Do any of them have any, you know, actual experience delivering the low cost housing?

Yurt2

HerrKuehn wrote: »

Do any of them have any, you know, actual experience delivering the low cost housing?

Orla Hegarty worked on public and affordable housing projects in France and the UK before her lecturing career. Don't know about Lorcan Sirr, but somethings tells me you wouldn't be satisfied if he mixed the cement himself.

HerrKuehn

Yurt! wrote: »

Orla Hegarty worked on public and affordable housing projects in France and the UK before her lecturing career. Don't know about Lorcan Sirr, but somethings tells me you wouldn't be satisfied if he mixed the cement himself.

No, I am just sceptical. We have seen many times politicians with all the answers to complex problems. Its all so easy, they just need a chance. Anyone actually think Donnelly will fix the issues in the health service? I am sceptical of Eoin O Broin's ability to deliver and I also don't think social housing is the answer. I grew up in it and know the kinds of problems certain families can cause for everyone else. I am sure he is somewhat aware of this. He may have seen some social housing out the window on his way from Cabinteely to Blackrock college in the morning. Or, maybe not. I guess it depends on the route he took.

joeguevara

HerrKuehn wrote: »

No, I am just sceptical. We have seen many times politicians with all the answers to complex problems. Its all so easy, they just need a chance. Anyone actually think Donnelly will fix the issues in the health service? I am sceptical of Eoin O Broin's ability to deliver and I also don't think social housing is the answer. I grew up in it and know the kinds of problems certain families can cause for everyone else. I am sure he is somewhat aware of this. He may have seen some social housing out the window on his way from Cabinteely to Blackrock college in the morning. Or, maybe not. I guess it depends on the route he took.

So you asked a question with regards to an economist real life experience. It was provided to you but you decide to make a flippant remark with regards to a school route. If you ask a question, why not take the time to at least acknowledge that you weren't expecting the answer you received.

HerrKuehn

joeguevara wrote: »

So you asked a question with regards to an economist real life experience. It was provided to you but you decide to make a flippant remark with regards to a school route. If you ask a question, why not take the time to at least acknowledge that you weren't expecting the answer you received.

I have no idea what this means "Orla Hegarty worked on public and affordable housing projects in France and the UK". What exactly did she do? Plus it is Eoin O Broin with all the answers and a realistic chance of attempting to implement them.

Yurt2

HerrKuehn wrote: »

I have no idea what this means "Orla Hegarty worked on public and affordable housing projects in France and the UK". What exactly did she do? Plus it is Eoin O Broin with all the answers and a realistic chance of attempting to implement them.

She's was an architect. Probably still not happy with that

HerrKuehn

Yurt! wrote: »

She's was an architect. Probably still not happy with that

I mean, I presume you googled her name, found this article: https://www.independent.ie/business/commercial-property/building-houses-must-pay-more-than-planning-changes-39015416.html

Then copied in this bit "Ms Hegarty is well qualified to commentate on planning and development. An architect, she worked in private and public housing in London and Paris". Can you give us some more details, maybe something not in the independent article?

Yurt2

HerrKuehn wrote: »

I mean, I presume you googled her name, found this article: https://www.independent.ie/business/commercial-property/building-houses-must-pay-more-than-planning-changes-39015416.html

Then copied in this bit "Ms Hegarty is well qualified to commentate on planning and development. An architect, she worked in private and public housing in London and Paris". Can you give us some more details, maybe something not in the independent article?

Met her a few times at an event actually. There's a world outside Google you know.

GreeBo

HerrKuehn wrote: »

I have no idea what this means "Orla Hegarty worked on public and affordable housing projects in France and the UK". What exactly did she do? Plus it is Eoin O Broin with all the answers and a realistic chance of attempting to implement them.

Exactly.
Was she designing them?
Building them?
Costing them?
Coming up with policy on how/when/where to build them?
Deciding who should have access to them?
Defining policy on how they should be distributed?
How they should be paid for?
How much tenants should pay?

Without the above knowing that she was "an architect" is not terribly useful in determining how useful she would be.

joeguevara

HerrKuehn wrote: »

I mean, I presume you googled her name, found this article: https://www.independent.ie/business/commercial-property/building-houses-must-pay-more-than-planning-changes-39015416.html

Then copied in this bit "Ms Hegarty is well qualified to commentate on planning and development. An architect, she worked in private and public housing in London and Paris". Can you give us some more details, maybe something not in the independent article?

Ms Hegarty regularly speaks at Construction conferences and was due to speak at Construction Summit before it was cancelled.

She was a key speaker in the UK construction summit https://summits.ukconstructionweek.com/?view=article&id=353:orla-hegarty&catid=25 where they outlined her extensive practice experience

Have a look at her linkedin. Its actually a bit smug to think that people only know someone from a newspaper article, especially as you seem to not have a clue about her at all, and were shown up by the answer to your question.

Yurt2

GreeBo wrote: »

Exactly.
Was she designing them?
Building them?
Costing them?
Coming up with policy on how/when/where to build them?
Deciding who should have access to them?
Defining policy on how they should be distributed?
How they should be paid for?
How much tenants should pay?

Without the above knowing that she was "an architect" is not terribly useful in determining how useful she would be.

Oh dear, this isn't going well is it?

"Prior to my academic role, I was an architect in practice. I have been directly involved in housing design and delivery in both the private and public sectors in Ireland, the UK and France."

https://www.businesspost.ie/commercial-reports/housing-policy-needs-to-focus-on-affordability-5453840b

HerrKuehn

joeguevara wrote: »

Ms Hegarty regularly speaks at Construction conferences and was due to speak at Construction Summit before it was cancelled.

She was a key speaker in the UK construction summit https://summits.ukconstructionweek.com/?view=article&id=353:orla-hegarty&catid=25 where they outlined her extensive practice experience

Have a look at her linkedin. Its actually a bit smug to think that people only know someone from a newspaper article, especially as you seem to not have a clue about her at all, and were shown up by the answer to your question.

I would expect an academic to regularly speak at conferences. You have to admit, it looks like he just quickly googled and replied?

Yurt2

HerrKuehn wrote: »

I would expect an academic to regularly speak at conferences. You have to admit, it looks like he just quickly googled and replied?

Ladies and gents, this is what housing threads descend into. Accusations of googling.

joeguevara

HerrKuehn wrote: »

I would expect an academic to regularly speak at conferences. You have to admit, it looks like he just quickly googled and replied?

I don't know. But every mention of her does seem to specifically reference extensive practical experience. It was the first person that Yurt referenced when asked who had said that SF housing policy was feasible. Now, if they were only doing a google, I doubt they would have referenced the other individual.

GreeBo

joeguevara wrote: »

I don't know. But every mention of her does seem to specifically reference extensive practical experience. It was the first person that Yurt referenced when asked who had said that SF housing policy was feasible. Now, if they were only doing a google, I doubt they would have referenced the other individual.

I guess I would see a distinction between experience being an architect and experience being a person responsible for delivering affordable public housing at a government level.

atticu

Yurt! wrote: »

The affordable housing aspect of the policy is pretty much cost neutral the state as people will be taking mortgages on the property, and is the most important element to it.

Can you expand on this.

Are you saying that the state will take out mortgages?

HerrKuehn

joeguevara wrote: »

I don't know. But every mention of her does seem to specifically reference extensive practical experience. It was the first person that Yurt referenced when asked who had said that SF housing policy was feasible. Now, if they were only doing a google, I doubt they would have referenced the other individual.

Ok, so I would be the first to admit I don't know what it would cost to build houses. I don't work the construction industry and never have. I have no idea which academic has all the answers either. Although, I expect there is an element of confirmation bias in those that think they do.

I think with respect to social housing being an answer, there are 2 parts:
1) the cost
2) the social/cultural side

I have heard Eoin talk about #1, but not #2. I think if we only focus on building houses, but not on the potential social issues then it will be a failure. That is where my "flippant" remark about Eoin O Broin was coming from.

joeguevara

HerrKuehn wrote: »

Ok, so I would be the first to admit I don't know what it would cost to build houses. I don't work the construction industry and never have. I have no idea which academic has all the answers either. Although, I expect there is an element of confirmation bias in those that think they do.

I think with respect to social housing being an answer, there are 2 parts:
1) the cost
2) the social/cultural side

I have heard Eoin talk about #1, but not #2. I think if we only focus on building houses, but not on the potential social issues then it will be a failure. That is where my "flippant" remark about Eoin O Broin was coming from.

Agree completely. I don't think that the SF approach, while may be feasible from a cost point of view, is actually workable due to where the money is coming from and the fact that even if fully implemented is not the end of a longterm housing shortage. None of these options can be taken in isolation or vacuum and also the fact that SF would mean that higher tax rates which would mean, in my opinion, a false economy.

Tony EH

HerrKuehn wrote: »

Ok, so I would be the first to admit I don't know what it would cost to build houses. I don't work the construction industry and never have. I have no idea which academic has all the answers either. Although, I expect there is an element of confirmation bias in those that think they do.

I think with respect to social housing being an answer, there are 2 parts:
1) the cost
2) the social/cultural side

I have heard Eoin talk about #1, but not #2. I think if we only focus on building houses, but not on the potential social issues then it will be a failure. That is where my "flippant" remark about Eoin O Broin was coming from.

Will it be as big a "failure" as what we have presently? A situation where our young people have little to no chance of a home. That's a huge social/cultural issue facing the country right now, and not just today, but in years to come as well.

Yurt2

atticu wrote: »

Can you expand on this.

Are you saying that the state will take out mortgages?

Nope

joeguevara

atticu wrote: »

Can you expand on this.

Are you saying that the state will take out mortgages?

I believe that they were saying that the individuals themselves will be taking on mortgages on the property (through local authority mortgages) or perhaps through a rent to buy scheme,

Yurt2

joeguevara wrote: »

I believe that they were saying that the individuals themselves will be taking on mortgages on the property (through local authority mortgages) or perhaps through a rent to buy scheme,

In most cases there is no reason why couples / individuals accessing affordable housing can't finance their purchase via traditional mortgage.

atticu

Yurt! wrote: »

The affordable housing aspect of the policy is pretty much cost neutral the state as people will be taking mortgages on the property, and is the most important element to it.

atticu wrote: »

Can you expand on this.

Are you saying that the state will take out mortgages?

Yurt! wrote: »

Nope

Still confused 🤷*♀️

You posted: ‘the state as people will be taking mortgages on the property ‘

Yet when I asked if the state is going to take out mortgages, you say ‘Nope’

Can you please clear this up, as you seem to be contradicting yourself.

Yurt2

atticu wrote: »

Still confused 🤷*♀️

You posted: ‘the state as people will be taking mortgages on the property ‘

Yet when I asked if the state is going to take out mortgages, you say ‘Nope’

Can you please clear this up, as you seem to be contradicting yourself.

Nowhere did I state the state will be taking out mortgages on anyone's behalf.


You're doing the old "so what you're saying is..." thing.

atticu

Yurt! wrote: »

Nowhere did I state the state will be taking out mortgages on anyone's behalf.


You're doing the old "so what you're saying is..." thing.

You need to re-read your post.

I am not doing anything other than try and get clarity.
But, you don’t want to explain what you posted.

I am actually trying to find out what you were trying to say.

If you don’t want to clarify your point, just say so, but you have to admit that the sentence does not make sense.

atticu

Just to clarify, you posted:

Yurt! wrote: »

The affordable housing aspect of the policy is pretty much cost neutral the state as people will be taking mortgages on the property, and is the most important element to it.

Now, if you had posted:
The affordable housing aspect of the policy is pretty much cost neutral to the state, as people will be taking mortgages on the property, and is the most important element to it.

That would make sense.


This:
The affordable housing aspect of the policy is pretty much cost neutral because, the state, as people, will be taking mortgages on the property, and is the most important element to it.

Would also make sense.

I am not trying to be a grammar nazi, (and I apologize if it seems that way) I am just trying to understand what you posted.