Wokeism of the day *Revised Mod Note in OP and threadbanned users*

Cordell

I see now. When the white man went to Africa he found there scientists and mathematicians, he appropriated their advanced research and claimed it as its own. That's the new story now.

jam_mac_jam

I don't really understand this logic at all. How can maths be racist or colonialist. Is maths not by it's nature a tool for all humans. I don't get it at all.

Is it not incredibly racist to suggest that maths is somehow connected to white people.

Cordell

But in fact it is, pretty much all significant progress in math is the merit of white people and the odd asian.
So they need to play is safe, blame the white supremacy for the lack of any significant contribution from the people of color, especially the darker shades.

silverharp

I didnt think I'd need to say, but I want engineers to build planes I fly in to be racists.

Invidious

Cordell wrote: »

But in fact it is, pretty much all significant progress in math is the merit of white people and the odd asian.
So they need to play is safe, blame the white supremacy for the lack of any significant contribution from the people of color, especially the darker shades.

The New York Times published a lengthy lament on this in profiling African American mathematician Edray Goins.

African Americans earn fewer than 1 percent of maths PhDs. Why? Racism, of course.

Montage of Feck

Just wtf are they trying to achieve by shoehorning such BS into mathematics of all subjects.
Surely maths is as as pure a subject as you can get based purely on physical reality, what's next 2+2=5?

Invidious

Invidious wrote: »

The New York Times published a lengthy lament on this in profiling African American mathematician Edray Goins.

African Americans earn fewer than 1 percent of maths PhDs. Why? Racism, of course.

What percentage are earned by Asian Americans of all types?

It will be interesting over the next while as pretty much all non-Muslim Asian types will be told that they're whiter than the white folk and living within their colonial and racist systems.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

I don't really understand this logic at all. How can maths be racist or colonialist. Is maths not by it's nature a tool for all humans. I don't get it at all.

Is it not incredibly racist to suggest that maths is somehow connected to white people.

This whole thing of decolonisation of curricula is so alien to me. And depressing. And like you, I am especially confused about the decolonisation of hard sciences and maths. They are disciplines based on observation. I think the argument is that some those discoveries may have come about unethically in the past but we can’t unknow some information just because of how it was discovered.

I’m all for looking at introducing more diverse authors to English curricula. I’m sure some have been overlooked over the years. But why remove excellent books by white people? Can’t they ALL be included?

It’s all so frighteningly anti-intellectual.

Yeah_Right

Invidious wrote: »

Recent research commissioned by World Rugby found that, even after hormonal intervention, male-bodied players are on average 40 percent heavier, 15 percent faster, and 25 to 50 percent stronger than natal female players. The study found that women are at significantly higher risk of serious injury when competing against trans opponents.

But when given a choice between ideology and the objective facts of physics, many will still choose ideology.

The World Rugby research came up in the discussion. It was pointed out that those size and strength differences are already there in every team at every level even professional. The difference between Craig Casey and Devin Toner is around 45cm and 50kg. Obviously they play different positions but they could be in a collision in a match. Even players in the same position could have differences of 20 plus cm and 20 plus kg.

Just to be clear, I still don't like the idea of trans-women competing with women. The discussion was interesting and some good points were made. It hasn't changed my mind but it has softened my stance on it. I'm now 90% against it as opposed to 100% beforehand.

Danzy

Yeah_Right wrote: »

The World Rugby research came up in the discussion. It was pointed out that those size and strength differences are already there in every team at every level even professional. The difference between Craig Casey and Devin Toner is around 45cm and 50kg. Obviously they play different positions but they could be in a collision in a match. Even players in the same position could have differences of 20 plus cm and 20 plus kg.

Just to be clear, I still don't like the idea of trans-women competing with women. The discussion was interesting and some good points were made. It hasn't changed my mind but it has softened my stance on it. I'm now 90% against it as opposed to 100% beforehand.

Same weight and height, give the woman an extra 20 kgs, when they clash hard, she'll be the one flying in the air.

Bone strength, explosive strength aren't the same, etc, etc.

Give the woman player a 50kg advantage over a man player. I'd put my money on her Ending up broken on the pitch first.

I'm in my 40s and I can deadlift the female Irish record.

I wouldn't boast about that in the gym, lest a 50 something man there embarrasses me.

For athletes training hard, the difference would be starker, the lightest man on a rugby team should be much stronger by a large margin than the strongest woman on a similar team.

I know it's old ground but go back to at least 98%.😉

Invidious

Montage of Feck wrote: »

Just wtf are they trying to achieve by shoehorning such BS into mathematics of all subjects.
Surely maths is as as pure a subject as you can get based purely on physical reality, what's next 2+2=5?

Here's the Seattle Public Schools framework document on this. Read it and weep.

Invidious

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I’m all for looking at introducing more diverse authors to English curricula. I’m sure some have been overlooked over the years. But why remove excellent books by white people? Can’t they ALL be included?

The so-called canon wars that swept through the humanities in the 80s and 90s did result in universities broadening curricula to include more works by female and minority writers. But the woke contingent now want to go a step further ... rather than just broadening reading lists, they want numerous works, especially by heterosexual white males, removed from the curriculum entirely in the interests of not perpetuating oppression. Activists in the 80s and 90s sought to ensure that certain books could be taught; woke activists today seek to ensure that certain books are not taught.

It’s all so frighteningly anti-intellectual.

It is indeed.

Sir Oxman

Sarah Milican in 19th erased, Eddie Izzard at 15th is the 'funniest female comedian'
(Sh1tty poll/survey but still - what are these people on?)

https://twitter.com/ChristianCawley/status/1357586804678021120

Mad_maxx

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

This whole thing of decolonisation of curricula is so alien to me. And depressing. And like you, I am especially confused about the decolonisation of hard sciences and maths. They are disciplines based on observation. I think the argument is that some those discoveries may have come about unethically in the past but we can’t unknow some information just because of how it was discovered.

I’m all for looking at introducing more diverse authors to English curricula. I’m sure some have been overlooked over the years. But why remove excellent books by white people? Can’t they ALL be included?

It’s all so frighteningly anti-intellectual.

of course its " anti - intellectual "

Wokeness is a religion

Mad_maxx

Mad_maxx wrote: »

of course its " anti - intellectual "

Wokeness is a religion

Precisely, because this ideology is impervious to reason.

No amount of evidence could ever be produced to persuade a woke-ist to change their mind. And that, of course, is the natural consequence of a belief system grounded in both emotion and faith, rather than evidence and reason.

That's not to suggest that everything a woke-ist says is false or malign. There may very well be nuggets of wisdom berthed in that endless tide of mindlessness.

But at its heart, it's a religious-minded impulse - one grounded in a sense of moral superiority; imperative to act to "save" those less fortunate.

Tony EH

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

This whole thing of decolonisation of curricula is so alien to me. And depressing. And like you, I am especially confused about the decolonisation of hard sciences and maths. They are disciplines based on observation. I think the argument is that some those discoveries may have come about unethically in the past but we can’t unknow some information just because of how it was discovered.

I’m all for looking at introducing more diverse authors to English curricula. I’m sure some have been overlooked over the years. But why remove excellent books by white people? Can’t they ALL be included?

It’s all so frighteningly anti-intellectual.

And yet, so very American.

Danzy

Tony EH wrote: »

And yet, so very American.

More and more here all the time.

The left that were different walked away like I have, are being sidelined, the younger members and activists are leaning towards this.

Tony EH

Danzy wrote: »

More and more here all the time.

The left that were different walked away like I have, are being sidelined, the younger members and activists are leaning towards this.

Woke has bugger all to do with "the left". It's only held up by the right like that to use as a stick to beat the enemy with.

The fact is these types have always been around. They're just amplified by the web and people getting their knickers in a twist over some ejit they read on Twitter. The vast majority of people, left and right, think their fools and/or disingenuous platformers. And the more these people speak, they more they get exposed. But there is nothing really new here, except if you're a kid and have never come across them before.

It's telling that the majority of this nonsense comes from America. The land of nonsense. But America has long had a reputation for being ridiculous.

This woke thing, like all crazy/eccentric/platforming will always be niche. It's the fools that loose their shit over it that are worse.

Cody montana

Every generation changes.
Nothing will stop that.

It's called progress, good or bad.

silverharp

Tony EH wrote: »

Woke has bugger all to do with "the left". It's only held up by the right like that to use as a stick to beat the enemy with.

The fact is these types have always been around. They're just amplified by the web and people getting their knickers in a twist over some ejit they read on Twitter. The vast majority of people, left and right, think their fools and/or disingenuous platformers. And the more these people speak, they more they get exposed. But there is nothing really new here, except if you're a kid and have never come across them before.

It's telling that the majority of this nonsense comes from America. The land of nonsense. But America has long had a reputation for being ridiculous.

This woke thing, like all crazy/eccentric/platforming will always be niche. It's the fools that loose their shit over it that are worse.

there is plenty of woke in the UK its not just a US thing, also you must accept they are from a leftist stable, they would be in the labour party in Britain and would be Bernie supporters in the US, there isnt a woke wing of the Republican party

Tony EH

Tony EH wrote: »

It's telling that the majority of this nonsense comes from America. The land of nonsense. But America has long had a reputation for being ridiculous.

This woke thing, like all crazy/eccentric/platforming will always be niche. It's the fools that loose their shit over it that are worse.

True enough. America has always been the land of extremes.

However, this woke nonsense is here too. It's in our media. The government is pushing diversity and inclusion rather heavily (judging by the ads being shown on TV or on Youtube, they've dedicated a hefty budget to it), and it is in our schools too. (I'm too drunk to search now, but it was either on the sexism or men's rights thread about transition year students being taught a very woke centered syllabus - I know you scan those threads too and hope you know what I'm referring to).

The point is... we are where the US was 40 years ago. We are at the stage where this woke crap is suspect. They dismissed it as nonsense, and it gained a strong following in third level education, and has spread into other areas, which led to the strong push for PC culture, which in turn, led to Trump being elected. We could do the same as the US... dismiss it as being the niche interest of crazies, ignoring it's accumulation of influence, or we can deal with it before it becomes a problem. The US is messed up now. Sure, it's always been a clusterf during our lifetimes, but this diversity, and woke culture is currently putting the nails in the coffin.

Do we really want to ignore the problems that arise from this rubbish until we are just as messed up as the US? Cause that will happen if we don't resist it.

My feeling is that the woke nonsense is dangerous, because people keep assuming that it's contained within the internet.. but society has shifted considerably over the last two decades. The internet is a core part of most peoples lives, and this woke crap has the backing of our political elite. It's going to establish itself here, just as it has done so elsewhere... because people are too quick to dismiss it as being just for the weirdos.

The trans "debate" has shown just how much society can be influenced by the internet.. let's not disregard the dangers. We have a case study in the US... and frankly, we're following pretty damn close to how this crap gained momentum there.

Sir Oxman

It's not nebulous, it's not 'just an internet thing'.
It's here.

Tony EH

silverharp wrote: »

there is plenty of woke in the UK its not just a US thing, also you must accept they are from a leftist stable, they would be in the labour party in Britain and would be Bernie supporters in the US, there isnt a woke wing of the Republican party

I didn't say it was "just a US thing". But it certainly comes from there.

Plus the woke in the UK is different, by and large, to the US. In addition, it's of a vastly smaller nature. Which makes it miniscule, because even in the States it's a tiny element. When I'm over there, it's nowhere to be seen in daily, real, life and I mostly go to New York.

It's mostly gobshites on the web making a silly statement and, frankly, not worthy of the attention it receives. But some people absolutely LOVE going out of their way to try and find it so they can bleat on about it for a bit.

As for the "leftist stable", no. I don't accept that. Most of this woke crowd are concerned only with their particular cause de jour. That doesn't make them "left".

The real issue regarding the left and woke, is that those on the left are more willing to lend them an ear. But a lot of that has to do with politicking and not policy. The left may listen to radfems who want to change Manhole to Personhole, but they aren't going to be doing too much about it. And they do it precisely to garner support. The same way that the right entertains religious fools to poach a vote from them.

In either case, they are an extremely minor niche in the political market.

Tony EH

Tony EH wrote: »

Woke has bugger all to do with "the left". It's only held up by the right like that to use as a stick to beat the enemy with.

TBH Politics bores me to tears. Oh sure, I listen out for what's relevant, but since I live abroad, very little is of any actual use to me. I know I'll be screwed on tax regardless.

However, there is a political left... and there is a social left. IMHO the political left and the political right are pretty interchangeable, since politicians do whatever they want once the elections are finished... irrespective of who is left/right.

But with the social left, we have something far different, and far more focused. This may include some politicians, but mostly it doesn't. It's the progressives who want social change for some murky badly thought out reasoning... And I'd say the social right are pretty similar. Passion causes. Emotional thinking. Little long term planning, and no real consideration of what happens after their changes are implemented. An Amazing lack of responsibility for the choices made.

I do think people need to start making a distinction between the social left/right and the political left/right. So many people are non-political these days, while being active in social change.

silverharp

Tony EH wrote: »

I didn't say it was "just a US thing". But it certainly comes from there.

Plus the woke in the UK is different, by and large, to the US. In addition, it's of a vastly smaller nature. Which makes it miniscule, because even in the States it's a tiny element. When I'm over there, it's nowhere to be seen in daily, real, life and I mostly go to New York.

It's mostly gobshites on the web making a silly statement and, frankly, not worthy of the attention it receives. But some people absolutely LOVE going out of their way to try and find it so they can bleat on about it for a bit.

As for the "leftist stable", no. I don't accept that. Most of this woke crowd are concerned only with their particular cause de jour. That doesn't make them "left".

The real issue regarding the left and woke, is that those on the left are more willing to lend them an ear. But a lot of that has to do with politicking and not policy. The left may listen to radfems who want to change Manhole to Personhole, but they aren't going to be doing too much about it. And they do it precisely to garner support. The same way that the right entertains religious fools to poach a vote from them.

In either case, they are an extremely minor niche in the political market.

its not just an internet thing, its certainly a university thing, and its crept into arious NGOs and other government funded agencies, and Film and Television

Tony EH

Deleted User wrote: »

True enough. America has always been the land of extremes.

However, this woke nonsense is here too. It's in our media. The government is pushing diversity and inclusion rather heavily (judging by the ads being shown on TV or on Youtube, they've dedicated a hefty budget to it), and it is in our schools too. (I'm too drunk to search now, but it was either on the sexism or men's rights thread about transition year students being taught a very woke centered syllabus - I know you scan those threads too and hope you know what I'm referring to).

The point is... we are where the US was 40 years ago. We are at the stage where this woke crap is suspect. They dismissed it as nonsense, and it gained a strong following in third level education, and has spread into other areas, which led to the strong push for PC culture, which in turn, led to Trump being elected. We could do the same as the US... dismiss it as being the niche interest of crazies, ignoring it's accumulation of influence, or we can deal with it before it becomes a problem. The US is messed up now. Sure, it's always been a clusterf during our lifetimes, but this diversity, and woke culture is currently putting the nails in the coffin.

Do we really want to ignore the problems that arise from this rubbish until we are just as messed up as the US? Cause that will happen if we don't resist it.

My feeling is that the woke nonsense is dangerous, because people keep assuming that it's contained within the internet.. but society has shifted considerably over the last two decades. The internet is a core part of most peoples lives, and this woke crap has the backing of our political elite. It's going to establish itself here, just as it has done so elsewhere... because people are too quick to dismiss it as being just for the weirdos.

The trans "debate" has shown just how much society can be influenced by the internet.. let's not disregard the dangers. We have a case study in the US... and frankly, we're following pretty damn close to how this crap gained momentum there.

Ask yourself how much of the fault is your own.

If you spend time seeking out this rubbish, you will find it. But you'll find all sorts of crazy shit on the internet. Shit that you'll be hard pressed to find in reality. Look at 90% of the examples on this thread. It's some nobody online typing something ridiculous, that's patently ridiculous to mostly everyone else. It doesn't deserve any more than a ha ha, and then you move on.

If you were to listen to some people, you'd think that "the woke" were ten a penny. Yet, you'd be hard pressed to meet one in real life and then, it's usually only someone who has a particular bugbear that they can't see past.

But, frankly, this shit just a massive waste of time and worrying about it is one of the worst ways I can think of to use what time we have.

Tony EH

silverharp wrote: »

its not just an internet thing, its certainly a university thing, and its crept into arious NGOs and other government funded agencies, and Film and Television

When COVID is over, get out and talk to some real people. You'll be hard pressed to any wokies.

silverharp

Tony EH wrote: »

When COVID is over, get out and talk to some real people. You'll be hard pressed to any wokies.

you are just trying to talk past me there

Tony EH

silverharp wrote: »

you are just trying to talk past me there

...and you're not reading what I'm writing. I haven't said it was "just an American thing", nor did I say "it was only on the internet" either.

Tony EH

Tony EH wrote: »

Ask yourself how much of the fault is your own.

Well.. very little actually, since boards is my own social media in Ireland.. and beyond that, I'm stuck with family/friends. I have given some lecture series here but nothing remotely related to this subject matter.

If you spend time seeking out this rubbish, you will find it.

Yes, you will. I don't. I don't have twitter. I don't have facebook. I don't have any of the other social media apps. It's not on wechat, or weibo which I do use. It is on RTE which I watch quite a bit.

But you'll find all sorts of crazy shit on the internet. Shit that you'll be hard pressed to find in reality. Look at 90% of the examples on this thread. It's some nobody online typing something ridiculous, that's patently ridiculous to mostly everyone else. It doesn't deserve any more than a ha ha, and then you move on.

Sure. But then there are heaps of examples showing where it's been accepted into mainstream society too. Not Irish society, but if it's being accepted into both the UK and the US, it's going to gain traction here too.

If you were to listen to some people, you'd think that "the woke" were ten a penny. Yet, you'd be hard pressed to meet one in real life and then, it's usually only someone who has a particular bugbear that they can't see past.

But, frankly, this shit just a massive waste of time and worrying about it is one of the worst ways I can think of to use what time we have.

Okie dokie. You've decided to dismiss it as being irrelevant. I've decided that what has happened in the US, and to a lesser extent in the UK, could happen here too.

Perhaps it's just a difference in perspective. I've spent the last decade and more abroad, and I've been returning here every two years or so. I stay a month or two and head off. This year I got stuck due to Covid, and have been here a year.. and I see the influence of the woke philosophy in RTE and radio. In the interviews done, or the attitudes presented about feminism, or trans. The lack of resistance, and the lack of people calling others out on this BS. It's here in Ireland, and I've seen it growing in scope over the years.