Wokeism of the day *Revised Mod Note in OP and threadbanned users*

Invidious

Tony EH wrote: »

Woke has bugger all to do with "the left".

The woke are focused on achieving their goals of social justice through radical identity politics. Their stances are heavily influenced by postcolonial theory, queer theory, critical race theory, and gender studies, academic disciplines that themselves can all can be traced back to the Frankfurt School of critical theory. Wokeness, in short, is a mutation of cultural Marxism — which has a whole lot to do with the left. It might be convenient for you to disavow this genealogy, and pretend that it has "bugger all" to do with what you personally believe in — but you're only ignoring how left-wing thought has mutated since the 1960s, and how its ambition of overthrowing the ruling classes has been extended from toppling the capitalists to displacing from their pedestals of power white people, men, heterosexuals, Westerners, and others who are presumed to hold dominion over the oppressed.

Sir Oxman

inforfun wrote: »

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/05/business/media/donald-mcneil-andy-mills-leave-nyt.html



That is the newspaper that had no issues whatsoever with Sarah Jeong's past behaviour (on social media) and hired her.

"In a statement to Times staff on Friday, Mr. McNeil wrote that he had used the slur in a discussion with a student about the suspension of a classmate who had used the term.
Continue reading the main story

“I should not have done that,” he wrote. “Originally, I thought the context in which I used this ugly word could be defended.

I now realize that it cannot. It is deeply offensive and hurtful.”
Mr. McNeil concluded, “For offending my colleagues —and for anything I’ve done to hurt The Times, which is an institution I love and whose mission I believe in and try to serve — I am sorry. I let you all down.”

BiB - reasonable, absolutely zero grounds for complaints or dismissal.
Then McNeil prostrates himself on the altar of dumbness - I guess to allow him the chance to earn a living elsewhere.


Remember, there's 'no such thing as cancel culture', so say the righteous/dumb clapping along :rolleyes:

silverharp

Invidious wrote: »

The woke are focused on achieving their goals of social justice through radical identity politics. Their stances are heavily influenced by postcolonial theory, queer theory, critical race theory, and gender studies, academic disciplines that themselves can all can be traced back to the Frankfurt School of critical theory. Wokeness, in short, is a mutation of cultural Marxism — which has a whole lot to do with the left. It might be convenient for you to disavow this genealogy, and pretend that it has "bugger all" to do with what you personally believe in — but you're only ignoring how left-wing thought has mutated since the 1960s, and how its ambition of overthrowing the ruling classes has been extended from toppling the capitalists to displacing from their pedestals of power white people, men, heterosexuals, Westerners, and others who are presumed to hold dominion over the oppressed.

good observations, it has nothing to do with equality, the goal is to displace the centre with the fringe. If they achieved their goals, they would be like the dog that catches the car , they wouldnt know what to do with it :pac: plus by their own logic they would be the new centre that would need to be replaced. Probably a bit of that already with the boot being put into feminists and white gay men who were left wing royalty up until recently

Tony EH

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I believe it’s happening in UK universities too, including Oxford.

Sure. but it's still an imported commodity, built largely on the back of American socio-political ideas and engaged in by people who take all or most of their thinking from there.

AllForIt

Tony EH wrote: »

Sure. but it's still an imported commodity, built largely on the back of American socio-political ideas and engaged in by people who take all or most of their thinking from there.

Well it doesn't really matter where the virus came from, it's here now.

Mad_maxx

Tony EH wrote: »

And yet, so very American.

i would say we here in Ireland are a lot more susceptible to the religion of WOKE

Americans ( for all their faults ) tend to be very individualistic , We do not , We are very prone to group think , fifty years ago in order to be seen as respectable , we were all ( nearly all ) slaves to Catholic thought and dogma

Now the moral hierarchy preach Wokeness and those who dont subscribe are often ostracised in many different ways

no different to how being out of step with catholic doctrine back in the day left one cancelled

Tony EH

Deleted User wrote: »

You seem to be in the unfortunate position of being Left-wing

I am neither left wing nor right wing. My meter swings depending on the topic of conversation.

I think that anyone who has their needle buried in either direction permanently just isn't thinking for themselves.

Deleted User wrote: »

Woke-ism - which is undoubtedly a stable of the Left.

Only as a handy strawman for those on the right.

But there will be plenty of people on the left that will be just as bemused/amused by some of the ridiculous woke bollocksology as anyone else. There are lots of posters on here who are actually left wingers who'll tell you that they think these extreme fringe groups and individuals are batshit crazy.

As I said before, the biggest problem with "the left" with regards to the woke crowd is that they are willing to lend them an ear too readily and sometimes to people that should be simply shown the door.

But that certainly does not mean that "the left" are in lockstep with them as some people would like you to believe.

Mad_maxx

Tony EH wrote: »

Woke has bugger all to do with "the left". It's only held up by the right like that to use as a stick to beat the enemy with.

The fact is these types have always been around. They're just amplified by the web and people getting their knickers in a twist over some ejit they read on Twitter. The vast majority of people, left and right, think their fools and/or disingenuous platformers. And the more these people speak, they more they get exposed. But there is nothing really new here, except if you're a kid and have never come across them before.

It's telling that the majority of this nonsense comes from America. The land of nonsense. But America has long had a reputation for being ridiculous.

This woke thing, like all crazy/eccentric/platforming will always be niche. It's the fools that loose their shit over it that are worse.

Oh i wouldnt be too complacent , i can hardly think of a single irish journalist or media personality who isnt a WOKE adherent so the consensus which has been formed is incredibly narrow and orthodox , this inevitably sinks down to the broader public space

Tony EH

AllForIt wrote: »

Well it doesn't really matter where the virus came from, it's here now.

And it has absolutely zero impact on 99% of people's lives.

Relax the sky isn't falling in.

Tony EH

Mad_maxx wrote: »

i would say we here in Ireland are a lot more susceptible to the religion of WOKE

Americans ( for all their faults ) tend to very individualistic , We do not , We are very prone to group think , fifty years ago in order to be seen as respectable , we were all ( nearly all ) slaves to Catholic thought and dogma

Now the moral hierarchy preach Wokeness and those who dont subscribe are often ostracised in many different ways

no different to how being out of step with catholic doctrine back in the day left one cancelled

At best, the majority of the country were lip service Catholics. It was conservative Ireland that had a vested interest in keeping a religious institutional grip going over here.

As for "wokeness", the vast majority of Irish people would be laughing at it, in the same way that we've always laughed at the most extreme forms of American nonsense.

Mad_maxx

Tony EH wrote: »

At best, the majority of the country were lip service Catholics. It was conservative Ireland that had a vested interest in keeping a religious institutional grip going over here.

As for "wokeness", the vast majority of Irish people would be laughing at it, in the same way that we've always laughed at the most extreme forms of American nonsense.

agree that many if not most irish people ( back in the day ) were anti clerical but they knew that in order to live a peaceful life ( and be viewed as respectable ) , they needed to pay lip service to the Catholic hierarchy

nowadays we must be seen to doff the cap to the WOKE hierarchy , just because the majority of the population are not True Believers , does not mean their lives are not influenced

most soviet citizens were not avid fundamentalist stalinists either

Tony EH

Mad_maxx wrote: »

nowadays we must be seen to doff the cap to the WOKE hierarchy

No we don't. Don't be silly.

Mad_maxx

Tony EH wrote: »

No we don't. Don't be silly.

no politician will dare call on travellers to take responsibility

no politician do what that galway TD did and raise questions about direct provision and the legitimacy of a percentage of asylum seekers

no politician will raise the issue of the massive non payment of rents when it comes to social housing tenants

those are just three examples

Tony EH

Three examples of "everything I don't like is woke".

Mad_maxx

Tony EH wrote: »

Three examples of "everything I don't like is woke".

its about policing what can be discussed

the above are all sacred cows of the WOKE left in this country

anyone who asks tough questions about any of the above will find themselves slimed with some sort of " ism " label or other

Dyr

Tony EH wrote: »

Sure. but it's still an imported commodity, built largely on the back of American socio-political ideas and engaged in by people who take all or most of their thinking from there.

You mean people like you?


Tony translator:

"Well Guard, it all started when he hit me back"

newhouse87

newhouse87 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/SonnyBunch/status/1358202331695824897/photo/1

Renaming schools even if there information on historical figures is wrong. She says a board member that essentially even if they have labelled a historical figure as racist or some other term in the wrong, it should be left that way as the renaming group have put work in, looked up Wikipedia apparently according to some articles, doesn't matter that the research is incorrect in the case of Paul Revere, it should be left that way as otherwise it would discredit the renaming boards work which is factually wrong.

Reminds me of the "We shouldn't prosecute people for false rape allegations because it might discourage real victims from coming forward."

I would consider myself pretty left-wing. I'm anti-colonialist (in all its forms), not particularly in favour of large-scale immigration (remember when that was a left-wing position?), in favour of publicly funded schools, healthcare and a strong and generous safety net for those who need it.

The current "left" parties represent so little of what traditional lefties would consider their views. Some are held captive by their faith that even if they have to ally with the loonies it's worth it because it'll just be the first step towards proper leftie politics. People like myself have realised that most of the left (presented publicly) is just hobbyists and virtue-signallers and actual cultural marxists.
Those of us on the traditional left are left in the position that if a party existed that was almost entirely classically right-wing with the exception of slashing public services then they're more closely aligned with us than the current left.

Tony EH

Tony EH wrote: »

Only as a handy strawman for those on the right.

But there will be plenty of people on the left that will be just as bemused/amused by some of the ridiculous woke bollocksology as anyone else. There are lots of posters on here who are actually left wingers who'll tell you that they think these extreme fringe groups and individuals are batshit crazy.

You are still in denial.

Let's put it like this, then: not all Left-wingers are woke-ists, but all woke-ists are Left-wingers.

You keep calling them a fringe group. They're not a fringe group, they're becoming more and more mainstream. Five years ago, you probably wouldn't have heard of them, now you do. And if they're not stopped, you'll be hearing far more about them in the future.

All you need do is assess how much they have managed to change in a relatively short period of time.

Cordell

I would say that the wokies / antifa / blm are the traditional marxist left.
The other left is the modern social democratic left.

Cordell

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2l6JUNFAJ9o

Mad_maxx

Cordell wrote: »

I would say that the wokies / antifa / blm are the traditional marxist left.
The other left is the modern social democratic left.

the Social Democrats are every bit as WOKE as they tend to be middle class

Cordell

Mad_maxx wrote: »

the Social Democrats are every bit as WOKE as they tend to be middle class

What they are and what they should be based on their declared ideology are two completely different things and it's not unique to them.

Also it's no problem to be middle class and have left leaning preferences. Or to actually be progressive without being woke.

Tony EH

Tony EH wrote: »

Relax the sky isn't falling in.

Yet.

All social movements tend to start small and build momentum towards greater changes in society. We saw how the woke and PC movements gained support and momentum in the US. The same thing is happening in the UK, with it spreading in Academia/education, the media, and with politicians. And... we're starting to see it begin to gain a following here.

So.. when should we become worried about it? When it's managed to establish itself in most western nations?

You keep seeking to downplay the possible effects of woke culture on society, as if it's something that isn't going to affect the general population. But when it manages to become part of education, it does reach the general population. When the media chooses to represent the woke angle in presenting "their" truth, it does affect society.. and when the government allocates funding to encourage woke ideals, and presents laws to protect woke sensibilities... then it does affect the general population. We've seen it evolve in the US.. we've seen a repeat of it's evolution in the UK.. and.. still.. you'd have us dismiss it as being unimportant.

Now.. there's no real need to reply to this because I suspect you'll simply repeat your previous points, while ignoring what I've said. You've done it twice already, so I wouldn't be too surprised to see it happen again.

Danzy

Tony EH wrote: »

Sure. but it's still an imported commodity, built largely on the back of American socio-political ideas and engaged in by people who take all or most of their thinking from there.

Correct, as was your earlier long response to me.

This is a US importation, a distortion and upending of the left of old, especially the left where rights in the workplace were hard won.

Unfortunately that left is dead, and where it is not, it is over powered by the woke.

What can be described as left has changed a lot over the centuries, long before Marx.

Unfortunately the current leading manifestation is woke, is middle class, is righteous, isn't interested in local issues or non trendy issues.

U don't think of them as left, I don't but they now dominate every left wing party and movement and that is only accelerating. For people today, this is the only left they know. It's the only Left that will be allowed progress in left wing parties and movements today.

To me there were many warning signs, where local campaigns and issues would be me and a few long timers, but a protest about Palestine could have dozens.

That was exemplified in the SF march in January 2008 on Palestine. It was a massive march with thousands present. The same month something like 30k working here lost their Jobs.

I support Palestinian rights and their right to Statehood but FFS.

O'Neill

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-55970058

Is it woke to find these comments abhorrent from a sitting MP?

Quantum Erasure

"There were five singers, all of them black. There were three judges all of them black and one presenter who was incidentally, yes black. The singers were all very good but can you imagine an all white line up with an all white jury and presented by a white person? No I can't either."

Abhorrent though?

Geuze

Deleted User wrote: »

I would consider myself pretty left-wing. I'm anti-colonialist (in all its forms), not particularly in favour of large-scale immigration (remember when that was a left-wing position?), in favour of publicly funded schools, healthcare and a strong and generous safety net for those who need it.

The current "left" parties represent so little of what traditional lefties would consider their views. Some are held captive by their faith that even if they have to ally with the loonies it's worth it because it'll just be the first step towards proper leftie politics. People like myself have realised that most of the left (presented publicly) is just hobbyists and virtue-signallers and actual cultural marxists.
Those of us on the traditional left are left in the position that if a party existed that was almost entirely classically right-wing with the exception of slashing public services then they're more closely aligned with us than the current left.

Good post.

I consider myself centre-right, yet I agree with much of what you say (there may be difference in the details).

I think your description of current left-wing politics is very good.

Is this debate going on with Lab / SD / SF? Are they aware that this move to identity politics alienates many traditional left voters?

I hope more left-wingers are like you, self-aware, but IMHO they seem not to be.

I am sympathetic to FG, but they put too much faith in the market to solve housing issues, and they will only have themselves to blame as they lose votes over housing.

Dyr

Danzy wrote: »

Correct, as was your earlier long response to me.

This is a US importation, a distortion and upending of the left of old, especially the left where rights in the workplace were hard won.

Unfortunately that left is dead, and where it is not, it is over powered by the woke.

Identity politics in this era came from the left but its a mistake to think the divide is left-right, its an elite vs ordinary people divide.

Geuze

Danzy wrote: »

Correct, as was your earlier long response to me.

This is a US importation, a distortion and upending of the left of old, especially the left where rights in the workplace were hard won.

Unfortunately that left is dead, and where it is not, it is over powered by the woke.

What can be described as left has changed a lot over the centuries, long before Marx.

Unfortunately the current leading manifestation is woke, is middle class, is righteous, isn't interested in local issues or non trendy issues.

U don't think of them as left, I don't but they now dominate every left wing party and movement and that is only accelerating. For people today, this is the only left they know. It's the only Left that will be allowed progress in left wing parties and movements today.

This is sad, and a step backwards.

The left would get way more votes if they focussed on the real issues facing people.

Instead they seems to focus on minor issues like bogus asylum-seekers, travellers, homosexuals, etc.

jam_mac_jam

The whole idea of the left is supposed to be about class structure. That seems to be completely lost. Ten years ago organisations like occupy were talking about taxes and the one per cent.

That argument seems to have been completely abandoned. Nobody ever mentions anything to do with class any more.

The idea that a gay or black rich person is less privileged then a poor white person is an idea I cannot accept. And not really the reality.

Does racism and homophobia exist, yes. Are they massive problems that are systemic in all areas of society, well not really in Europe or the west. Your life is much more decided by what class you are born into.