How come we never developed the same problems with class as they do in the UK?

Stovepipe

If you want to see the Irish monied system gel perfectly with the British class system, have a look at the horse racing industry. They are inextricably entwined and have been for generations and the plebs exist to fill their pockets via the bookies or racing days or to provide labour for rearing horses. Even if you had plenty of money, entry into the top echelon is only for the "right kind" of people.

Zebra3

Stovepipe wrote: »

If you want to see the Irish monied system gel perfectly with the British class system, have a look at the horse racing industry. They are inextricably entwined and have been for generations and the plebs exist to fill their pockets via the bookies or racing days or to provide labour for rearing horses. Even if you had plenty of money, entry into the top echelon is only for the "right kind" of people.

That's without mentioning all the taxpayers' money diverted into their pockets.....

McGinniesta

While the class system isn't as all pervasive as it is in the U.K there are definite undertones.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Zebra3 wrote: »

Because many are very racist countries with the descendants of Spanish settlers looking down on the indigenous people who survived the genocide?

Racism is part of it, although not the whole story. There's pretty strong classism even amongst white Latin Americans.

jippo nolan

Stovepipe wrote: »

If you want to see the Irish monied system gel perfectly with the British class system, have a look at the horse racing industry. They are inextricably entwined and have been for generations and the plebs exist to fill their pockets via the bookies or racing days or to provide labour for rearing horses. Even if you had plenty of money, entry into the top echelon is only for the "right kind" of people.

As Alex Ferguson found out!

riclad

the class system is held up by the third level colleges, all the people going to oxford,cambridge top class colleges help each other.
if you apply for a certain job you,ll get an interview or internship if you went to a certain college.
Most top comedians ,writers, people on the tv,media went to oxford or cambridge.
We are a small country , theres less a clas system than a sytem like america ,
if you live in a certain area you are middle class,.schools in certain area,s tend to be better than working class area,s .
yes many people in area,s like tv or media go to the uk because theres more jobs there .

Connacht15

steddyeddy wrote: »

How is it worse exactly?

Lack of Social Mobility! Though there is an element of The UK having a larger population and more powerful economy lending itself to more life opportunities in skewing that analysis.


The sad reality is that for most of its Independence, Ireland, for most people has been nothing other than a shytehole!


How else do you explain decades upon decades where between 60-70% of those born in particular years ran out of it as young adults?


True in the 50s,80s probably 30s and 40s and during the last bankers-builders recession!


A deliberate culling of the population through emigration knocks out the zest for revolt in the largely retarded peasants remaining!

Connacht15

riclad wrote: »

the class system is held up by the third level colleges, all the people going to oxford,cambridge top class colleges help each other.
if you apply for a certain job you,ll get an interview or internship if you went to a certain college.
Most top comedians ,writers, people on the tv,media went to oxford or cambridge.
We are a small country , theres less a clas system than a sytem like america ,
if you live in a certain area you are middle class,.schools in certain area,s tend to be better than working class area,s .
yes many people in area,s like tv or media go to the uk because theres more jobs there .

In Ireland having a degree may have been regarded as important in upward mobility.
Now with such high levels (highest in EU) of our population attending 3rd level -
Most university degrees have no vocational value in themselves!

Robsweezie

i think the existence of the ''monarchy'' there doesnt help. this antiquated notion of a well off family in a castle presiding over the great unwashed.

genius200iq

Paddy knows his place, dont be getting any notions

ILoveYourVibes

steddyeddy wrote: »

For example one of the women I worked with in the UK was related to nobility. Despite this she spent half her days on ketamine, dropped out of college and went working in a shop yet was refereed to as upper class. A working class student graduated from Oxford to become a doctor yet in Oxford some referred to him as "working class". In other words class was defined by background, not current occupation.

Because they fall for their own bs....if you wanna have a class system you have to have money behind it ...

Although i think Rees Moggs has that covered.

ILoveYourVibes

Stovepipe wrote: »

If you want to see the Irish monied system gel perfectly with the British class system, have a look at the horse racing industry. They are inextricably entwined and have been for generations and the plebs exist to fill their pockets via the bookies or racing days or to provide labour for rearing horses. Even if you had plenty of money, entry into the top echelon is only for the "right kind" of people.

paddy is always ...a bit trashy with it tho

steddyeddy

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Because they fall for their own bs....if you wanna have a class system you have to have money behind it ...

Although i think Rees Moggs has that covered.

Rees is a good example ILYV. He's often not considered upper class because he ins't titled nor does he come from old money. For some reason people seem to consider Boris Johnson upper class. Another cocaine and alcohol fiend.

Del.Monte

steddyeddy wrote: »

Rees is a good example ILYV. He's often not considered upper class because he ins't titled nor does he come from old money. For some reason people seem to consider Boris Johnson upper class. Another cocaine and alcohol fiend.

You do post a lot of nonsense. Both of the people you reference are clearly from an upper class background and I can't imagine anyone considering either of them to be anything else. Boris's cocaine and alcohol interests (according to you) have no bearing on his position on the class chart.

topper75

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

We have the exact same obnoxious ill behaving "chavs" here in Ireland that they have in the UK. The only 2 countries in Europe who seem to produce these types of people. The only 2 countries where you'll see women go to the supermarket in pajamas at 2pm.

Yeah I am always quite struck on trips around continental European cities at how they lack this element. All the euro towns have their proletariat districts - the single mother with the pram, the shopworker smoking and leaning on a vespa, the old lady with the shopping cart on wheels - but the abundance of lumpenproletariat, as Marx called them, that we suffer here and in the UK is not really evident.

Oddly enough, Marx aimed his ideas at England and its working class in the 19th century. He had no clue that it would eventually be Russia who would seek to implement his manifesto first after his death.

Old Karl didn't have much time for these types at all, referring to them as "a dangerous class" and "social scum" in his Communist Manifesto.

He didn't like them as they were a tool of bourgeois reaction and a "significant counterrevolutionary force throughout Europe."

Only in the 20th century, long after Marx was dead, did people of the left side of the political spectrum begin to see them as being an oppressed kind. Many of those who support lumpenproletariat in Ireland see no irony in lambasting government for not taking more money off actual working class wage earners to give to the 'can't work won't work' brigade who not only have no interest in the means of production - but no interest in production full stop.

Zebra3

topper75 wrote: »

Yeah I am always quite struck on trips around continental European cities at how they lack this element. All the euro towns have their proletariat districts - the single mother with the pram, the shopworker smoking and leaning on a vespa, the old lady with the shopping cart on wheels - but the abundance of lumpenproletariat, as Marx called them, that we suffer here and in the UK is not really evident.

That's because as a tourist in these cities, none of us go in to their problem areas which tended to be on the edge of the cities.

steddyeddy

Del.Monte wrote: »

You do post a lot of nonsense. Both of the people you reference are clearly from an upper class background and I can't imagine anyone considering either of them to be anything else.

You don't have to imagine Del, the Tatler guide doesn't consider him upper class. He comes from a upper middle class family. The aforementioned taxonomy is not something I buy into mind I'm just parroting the utterances of twits who believe this system is in anyway valuable.

You do post a lot of nonsense.

Boris's cocaine and alcohol interests (according to you) have no bearing on his position on the class chart.

Hmmmm. I'm sorry D but I think my idea of class is more apt than your imaginary one.

Boris Johnson is a man who received every privilege afforded to him yet spent his time drinking and taking cocaine. A man who has had countless affairs and failed to acknowledge some of his own kids. A man who has been sacked twice for lying and who cheated on his wife while she was receiving chemotherapy. A man who lied about the impact of Brexit to further his own career while simultaneously destroying the future of his own country.

Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson is a man of little or no class. What you mean is that Boris comes from a wealthy background, not a high class one. The sad thing is that the belief of British people in the class system is what led to them actually believing a man like this and voting for Brexit. The sooner the better people wake up to this the better.

steddyeddy

Zebra3 wrote: »

That's because as a tourist in these cities, none of us go in to their problem areas which tended to be on the edge of the cities.

Certainly Z. You only have to walk outwards through the rings of Paris to see that.

steddyeddy

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Because they fall for their own bs....if you wanna have a class system you have to have money behind it ...

Although i think Rees Moggs has that covered.

Yes indeed. I remember being corrected by some Etonian guy that Mogg was middle class with money, not upper class. I laughed thinking he was joking. He was insulted and said I didn't understand the British class system.

CrankyHaus

gourcuff wrote: »

Culchies in Ireland seem to have far higher levels of social mobility or class mobility than the working class dub which is hard to understand...

So many sons and daughters of small farmers now high up in the professional classes in Ireland, the traditional inner city residents seem to have less access to social mobility....

The value of Farmland isn't taken into account when assessing eligibility for grants. Therefore the children of farmers have advantageous access to higher education, which they have a good tradition of using. I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing, but it has to be understood as a policy choice that favours them.

steddyeddy

CrankyHaus wrote: »

The value of Farmland isn't taken into account when assessing eligibility for grants. Therefore the children of farmers have advantageous access to higher education, which they have a good tradition of using. I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing, but it has to be understood as a policy choice that favours them.

I never understood why assets like that aren't taken into account. You wouldn't believe how hard it is for some students to get the grant if they get a sniff that you might have other means.

I know a student who left her home due to family breakdown (official nomenclature) who was hounded by the grant awarding body for two years for proof that she had to escape her family home.

steddyeddy

landofthetree wrote: »

Well thats easily explained. The A level system is corrupt as hell.





https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/08/31/government-orders-investigation-public-school-cheating-scandal/

Yes the same occurs in Eton with regularity apparently. These are the people who run Britain.

CrankyHaus

steddyeddy wrote: »

I never understood why assets like that aren't taken into account.

Lobbying; and the broader mobilization of farmers as a group that will aggressively pursue its interests.
In general I see it as a positive thing but as with any mobilized interest the sense of entitlement it can engender is not very appealing.

steddyeddy wrote: »

You wouldn't believe how hard it is for some students to get the grant if they get a sniff that you might have other means.

I know a student who left her home due to family breakdown (official nomenclature) who was hounded by the grant awarding body for two years for proof that she had to escape her family home.

Someone close to me had similar. Not as bad circumstances but basically frustrated in accessing post-grad education by a petty Catch-22 bureaucratic obstacle that the organisations involved had no interest in resolving, until a TD intervened at the 11th hour to make the public servants in question actually do their effing jobs. Their life would be very different otherwise and its sobering to consider how many people must be out there who had their potential cut short by similar bureaucratic malice.

Fluppen

steddyeddy wrote: »

I never understood why assets like that aren't taken into account. You wouldn't believe how hard it is for some students to get the grant if they get a sniff that you might have other means.

I know a student who left her home due to family breakdown (official nomenclature) who was hounded by the grant awarding body for two years for proof that she had to escape her family home.

I think this is because farmers, particularly farmers with 100 acres or less are asset rich but cash poor. Often generations of farm families have put and continue to put significant investment into the land and farm just to keep it running. A farmer with 100 acres may technically be a millionaire in terms of assets but that farmer would be lucky to have an income from that farm that would pay for the kids education. Most now work an off farm job to pay the bills. I know there are big tractors out on the road but that is a result of trying to keep up with the required scale to keep afloat. Most of these tractors are either on lease or a 10+ year hire purchase plan and the owner needs to be in that tractor for most of the day doing work for themselves and others just to make the payments.
Anyway, I'm not sure where I'm going with this, just touched a nerve as I see farm families around me struggling to make ends meet by working very hard on the legacy which was handed down to them.


If you are curious and really want to understand I would recommend posing the question in the farming forum

steddyeddy

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Lobbying; and the broader mobilization of farmers as a group that will aggressively pursue its interests.
In general I see it as a positive thing but as with any mobilized interest the sense of entitlement it can engender is not very appealing.

Someone close to me had similar. Not as bad circumstances but basically frustrated in accessing post-grad education by a petty Catch-22 bureaucratic obstacle that the organisations involved had no interest in resolving, until a TD intervened at the 11th hour to make the public servants in question actually do their effing jobs. Their life would be very different otherwise and its sobering to consider how many people must be out there who had their potential cut short by similar bureaucratic malice.

That's horrible to hear C. I worked with disadvantaged students and heard it many times unfortunately. I couldn't believe the stories I heard about teenagers being sent to one department after another to procure paper work. A constant battle to prove themselves worthy of a grant. Unfortunately it doesn't always stop when they get the grant. The process is so draining that the students are on edge the whole time thinking they will be cut off at a moment's notice.

You're right about the impact of bureaucratic malice, incompetence and laziness on the futures of young students.

steddyeddy

Fluppen wrote: »

I think this is because farmers, particularly farmers with 100 acres or less are asset rich but cash poor. Often generations of farm families have put and continue to put significant investment into the land and farm just to keep it running. A farmer with 100 acres may technically be a millionaire in terms of assets but that farmer would be lucky to have an income from that farm that would pay for the kids education. Most now work an off farm job to pay the bills. I know there are big tractors out on the road but that is a result of trying to keep up with the required scale to keep afloat. Most of these tractors are either on lease or a 10+ year hire purchase plan and the owner needs to be in that tractor for most of the day doing work for themselves and others just to make the payments.
Anyway, I'm not sure where I'm going with this, just touched a nerve as I see farm families around me struggling to make ends meet by working very hard on the legacy which was handed down to them.


If you are curious and really want to understand I would recommend posing the question in the farming forum

Well just because I don't understand something it doesn't mean I'm making a judgement on it. I know plenty struggle to get the grant who are entitled to it.

I am well aware that a lot of farmers are struggling. It's an exceptionally hard job that I don't envy.

20silkcut

landofthetree wrote: »

What the left wing party hates is the hierarchy of competence. Thats a class system in itself.



Id love to be a fly on the wall to see the reaction of these left wing types if their daughter brought home an unemployed labourer with a drug problem. How much empathy and understanding would they show?

Wouldn’t happen. Women generally only marry horizontally or up the social hierarchy.

Men on the other hand....

steddyeddy

20silkcut wrote: »

Wouldn’t happen. Women generally only marry horizontally or up the social hierarchy.

Men on the other hand....

Ah hang on. There's loads of high society women that love a bit of rough. They may not marry them but they'll certainly get their rock and roll with them.

Hyperbollix

My late aunt left Ireland for the UK in the late 50's to look for work and determined social climber that she was, frequented the college rugby circuit and bagged herself a soon to be Oxford graduate. He left university with an arts degree and was basically a luddite but managed to dine out on that qualification for 30 odd years, having a fairly lucrative career in IT of all things.

I spoke to him about a few of the places he worked and how he got his foot in the door without relevant experience or, not to put to fine a point on it ability in the field and he put it down to connections for the most part and the power of "Oxford" on his CV. I suppose we'd have a similar-ish thing with Trinity here but it's not nearly as pervasive or endemic as Britain.

FTA69

steddyeddy wrote: »

You don't have to imagine Del, the Tatler guide doesn't consider him upper class. He comes from a upper middle class family. The aforementioned taxonomy is not something I buy into mind I'm just parroting the utterances of twits who believe this system is in anyway valuable.





Hmmmm. I'm sorry D but I think my idea of class is more apt than your imaginary one.

Boris Johnson is a man who received every privilege afforded to him yet spent his time drinking and taking cocaine. A man who has had countless affairs and failed to acknowledge some of his own kids. A man who has been sacked twice for lying and who cheated on his wife while she was receiving chemotherapy. A man who lied about the impact of Brexit to further his own career while simultaneously destroying the future of his own country.

Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson is a man of little or no class. What you mean is that Boris comes from a wealthy background, not a high class one. The sad thing is that the belief of British people in the class system is what led to them actually believing a man like this and voting for Brexit. The sooner the better people wake up to this the better.

Social class has nothing to do with your moral behaviour. The upper class have been degenerate p*sshead shaggers since the Normans introduced feudalism. Royal courts were notoriously debauched.

Andrew Windsor is a drunken philandering nonce, he’s still upper class though.

Del.Monte

steddyeddy wrote: »

Rees is a good example ILYV. He's often not considered upper class because he ins't titled nor does he come from old money. For some reason people seem to consider Boris Johnson upper class. Another cocaine and alcohol fiend.

The Peerage.com http://www.thepeerage.com/p31581.htm would seem to disagree with you about Jacob and I'm sure Boris is in there too but I'll let you do some research as you don't appear to understand the class system of the British Isles. Having a load of cash is not a prerequisite to being a member of the upper class.

topper75

Zebra3 wrote: »

That's because as a tourist in these cities, none of us go in to their problem areas which tended to be on the edge of the cities.

True of many who travel no doubt. Certainly not true in my own case. I make a point of finding out what cities are really like. You can usually catch the tourist stuff in a few days. I have sought out and seen the rougher ends of Mannheim, Malmo, Barcelona, Girona, Rome, Paris, Naples, Copenhagen, Brussels but to name a few. They are nowhere near as messed up as the unsavoury element Glasgow, Dublin, London, not to talk of some of the holes around around our provincial towns and cities.

The whole UK/Ire scumbag, knack, chav issue... well it turns out that this is quite unique in the euro context.

topper75

steddyeddy wrote: »

Certainly Z. You only have to walk outwards through the rings of Paris to see that.

Did that.

It's no Darndale is it? A bit grotty perhaps - some graffitti - some unemployed youths - they might stare at you. You don't see whole blocks boarded up or ponies grazing in rubbish. You don't see women wearing the clothes they sleep in whilst shopping. You don't have 4 generations of successive unemployment. No kicking off wing mirrors for fun. No shouting and screaming at night.

We are in a different class (no pun).

Mr. CooL ICE

I'm upper, upper class high society
God's gift to ballroom notoriety
And I always fill my ballroom
The event is never small
All the social papers say I've got the biggest balls of all

steddyeddy

FTA69 wrote: »

Social class has nothing to do with your moral behaviour. The upper class have been degenerate p*sshead shaggers since the Normans introduced feudalism. Royal courts were notoriously debauched.

Andrew Windsor is a drunken philandering nonce, he’s still upper class though.

Well duh F.

I have no illusions the definition of one's social class doesn't take behaviour into account.

The problem in England is some people genuinely think these classes are our betters. Here's an example of some of this on a English radio show where callers defend Prince Andrew. Utter deference to the man because of circumstance of birth and defence of his actions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBPj1YaDONY

The same goes with Boris Johnson. For someone reason his supporters in England think his social class excuse all of his scummy behaviours. It's also the reason a lot of people believed his lies over Brexit.

Either way it's a meaningless form of classification.

steddyeddy

topper75 wrote: »

Did that.

It's no Darndale is it? A bit grotty perhaps - some graffitti - some unemployed youths - they might stare at you. You don't see whole blocks boarded up or ponies grazing in rubbish. You don't see women wearing the clothes they sleep in whilst shopping. You don't have 4 generations of successive unemployment. No kicking off wing mirrors for fun. No shouting and screaming at night.

We are in a different class (no pun).

Ah here T it's far worse than Darndale in some areas. It's a myth that other countries haven't got dodgy areas. Try Naples for example.

steddyeddy

Del.Monte wrote: »

The Peerage.com http://www.thepeerage.com/p31581.htm would seem to disagree with you about Jacob and I'm sure Boris is in there too but I'll let you do some research as you don't appear to understand the class system of the British Isles. Having a load of cash is not a prerequisite to being a member of the upper class.

That's a tat site D. If you think Mogg is upper class you don't understand the English class system. Talking posh doesn't make one posh to people who believe that crap. He's upper middle class who married into posher.

Del.Monte

steddyeddy wrote: »

That's a tat site D. If you think Mogg is upper class you don't understand the English class system. Talking posh doesn't make one posh to people who believe that crap. He's upper middle class who married into posher.

What does that even mean?



I understand the British class well thank you and that appears to be where you fall down. Where was your knowledge obtained as it seems to have been the water cooler.

Zebra3

topper75 wrote: »

True of many who travel no doubt. Certainly not true in my own case. I make a point of finding out what cities are really like. You can usually catch the tourist stuff in a few days. I have sought out and seen the rougher ends of Mannheim, Malmo, Barcelona, Girona, Rome, Paris, Naples, Copenhagen, Brussels but to name a few. They are nowhere near as messed up as the unsavoury element Glasgow, Dublin, London, not to talk of some of the holes around around our provincial towns and cities.

The whole UK/Ire scumbag, knack, chav issue... well it turns out that this is quite unique in the euro context.

Not buying that for one minute about Naples.

steddyeddy

Del.Monte wrote: »

What does that even mean?



I understand the British class well thank you and that appears to be where you fall down. Where was your knowledge obtained as it seems to have been the water cooler.

How long did you live in England D? I can assure you the Mogg is not considered upper class.

steddyeddy

Here's the wiki of his Father, William Rees Mogg. By his own admission his family is upper middle class. Listen I know it's confusing but don't worry it means nothing outside of Brexit land.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Rees-Mogg

Del.Monte

We're kind of dancing on the head of a pin here as the blur between "Upper Middle Class" and "Upper Class" is almost imperceptible and if you look at Rees-Mogg's pedigree he has all the hallmarks of the "Upper Class". Anyway, your entire argument is moot as there's a definite class system in Ireland based on the British one but less obvious since independence. We've still a fair old sprinkling of titled people living in Ireland and some even in houses that weren't burnt.

I admit that the class system in Ireland is in terminal decline but that's the way the cookie crumbles as the minority community's numbers dwindle, churches and schools close and we march towards oblivion but a good time was had while it lasted! And, since you asked, I was born in Hampstead but have lived in Ireland most of my life not that has any bearing on the subject. I'll be contacting Rees-Mogg to get him to update his Wiki page.

Del.Monte

This video clearly explains the difference between classes - and note the lack of the mysterious "Upper" Middle Class.



https://www.facebook.com/thejohncleese/videos/the-class-system-sketch-from-1966-with-ronnie-barker-ronnie-corbett-johncleese-c/1870718759725920/

steddyeddy

Del.Monte wrote: »

This video clearly explains the difference between classes - and note the lack of the mysterious "Upper" Middle Class.



https://www.facebook.com/thejohncleese/videos/the-class-system-sketch-from-1966-with-ronnie-barker-ronnie-corbett-johncleese-c/1870718759725920/

The two Ronnies are famous sociologists after all.

HalloweenJack

I recently read Strumpet City and that gives a great picture of Dublin society pre-Independence. It gives you an idea of the class system that was in place when we were under the Crown. Pre-Independence, the upper class were mostly Anglo-Irish. The majority of Irish catholics were working class. A lot of the Anglo-Irish left after independence and their places were taken by the Irish that could.

HalloweenJack

topper75 wrote: »

The whole UK/Ire scumbag, knack, chav issue... well it turns out that this is quite unique in the euro context.

You are talking out your hole.

Nothing in Ireland compares to the stuff you can find on the continent. Even where I live (Cordoba in Spain), which is far from being a rough place, there are shantytowns just ten minutes from the city centre. The levels of drug-dealing and violence in certain parts of the continent are far beyond what you'd find in the rougher parts of Ireland.

I can't believe for a second that you've really been in the roughest areas of the cities as you claim because there is much worse than what you would find in Ireland.

steddyeddy

HalloweenJack wrote: »

You are talking out your hole.

Nothing in Ireland compares to the stuff you can find on the continent. Even where I live (Cordoba in Spain), which is far from being a rough place, there are shantytowns just ten minutes from the city centre. The levels of drug-dealing and violence in certain parts of the continent are far beyond what you'd find in the rougher parts of Ireland.

I can't believe for a second that you've really been in the roughest areas of the cities as you claim because there is much worse than what you would find in Ireland.

Indeed H. My OH is Greek and I can tell you there's some parts of Athens that you wouldn't walk down alone.

20silkcut

And the mafia collect/ don’t collect the rubbish in Naples and it is piled up on the streets in huge mounds.
Any one I’ve been talking to who has been in Italy recently was shocked at the graffiti and the filth.
And prostitutes roaming the roads.

spurious

In Ireland we are mostly tuppence ha'penny looking down on tuppence.

murpho999

Definitely a difference between classes between UK and Ireland, mainly because we were mostly downtrodden.

What does annoy me is how the peerage seems to stlll exist here and seems to be tolerated.

Why is Henry Mountcharles in Slane calling himself "lord", and, there are others such as Lord Meath, in Kilruddery in Bray.

I'm amazed that wasn't banned/scrapped and their stolen lands taken off them when the republic was established.