How come we never developed the same problems with class as they do in the UK?

20silkcut

murpho999 wrote: »

Definitely a difference between classes between UK and Ireland, mainly because we were mostly downtrodden.

What does annoy me is how the peerage seems to stlll exist here and seems to be tolerated.

Why is Henry Mountcharles in Slane calling himself "lord", and, there are others such as Lord Meath, in Kilruddery in Bray.

I'm amazed that wasn't banned/scrapped and their stolen lands taken off them when the republic was established.

It was to a certain extent. Most of those estates were only allowed to remain if they planted the vast majority of their land in forestry and were just allowed to keep a farm according to their needs.
Which often ended up impoverishing them. Which is why Henry Mount Charles had to invite 80,000 screaming drunk people onto his front lawn every year.
The business model for those estates was collecting rent on thousands of acres. That was removed for the most part by the various land acts etc.
That system is basically unchanged in England.

topper75

The rubbish wasn't collected in Naples? Some women on the game? Dear oh dear I was risking life and limb walking around those neighbourhoods so wasn't I?

This pic is of an Irish estate not far from where I live. No it wasn't bombed from the air. It was destroyed by vandalism from its own residents. Because that's the why.



Whether other posters don't want to accept it or not, we are a bit special here in Ireland when it comes to underclass.

As for Cordoba, can't comment on the particulars as never been but would you care to point out these 'shanty towns near the city centre' on Google maps?

partyguinness

One thing I have noticed living in England for the past 10 years is that the "lower middle classes" love nothing more than being told what to do and follow orders.

Put any old gob****e in a double-breasted suit and a plummy accent and the masses will swallow any old rubbish coming out of their mouths.

I have found the English surprisingly subservient and they love “knowing their place.”

steddyeddy

topper75 wrote: »

The rubbish wasn't collected in Naples? Some women on the game? Dear oh dear I was risking life and limb walking around those neighbourhoods so wasn't I?

This pic is of an Irish estate not far from where I live. No it wasn't bombed from the air. It was destroyed by vandalism from its own residents. Because that's the why.



Whether other posters don't want to accept it or not, we are a bit special here in Ireland when it comes to underclass.

As for Cordoba, can't comment on the particulars as never been but would you care to point out these 'shanty towns near the city centre' on Google maps?

The only thing that's exceptional in Ireland is the tendency for some people like yourself to assume we're the worst at everything. A constant national inferiority complex.

And to respond to your question the answer is yes, there is much much worse areas in places like Naples. It would be newsworthy if Ireland had the roughest estates in Europe.

ELM327

ELM327 wrote: »

As someone who attended fee paying school for secondary, not all of the children were of wealthy parents. The majority were from professional backgrounds of parents who were willing to scrimp and save to pay for a better education for their offspring.

I feel like the last time I looked at this, the UK fees were easily double the irish ones, so ours are more within reach for people

murpho999

20silkcut wrote: »

It was to a certain extent. Most of those estates were only allowed to remain if they planted the vast majority of their land in forestry and were just allowed to keep a farm according to their needs.
Which often ended up impoverishing them. Which is why Henry Mount Charles had to invite 80,000 screaming drunk people onto his front lawn every year.
The business model for those estates was collecting rent on thousands of acres. That was removed for the most part by the various land acts etc.
That system is basically unchanged in England.

OK, thanks but why do these peerages and nobility titles in Ireland still exist?

HalloweenJack

topper75 wrote: »

As for Cordoba, can't comment on the particulars as never been but would you care to point out these 'shanty towns near the city centre' on Google maps?

https://sevilla.abc.es/andalucia/cordoba/sevi-asentamiento-chavolas-camino-carbonel-301179691300-20180725100630_galeria.html#imagen1
There's a few pics for you. 15 shantytowns in Cordoba alone according to that article.

The ones I've seen with my own eyes are down are between Puente San Rafael and Puente de Andalucia on the south bank of the river if you want an idea of where some of them are.

topper75

HalloweenJack wrote: »

https://sevilla.abc.es/andalucia/cordoba/sevi-asentamiento-chavolas-camino-carbonel-301179691300-20180725100630_galeria.html#imagen1
There's a few pics for you. 15 shantytowns in Cordoba alone according to that article.

The ones I've seen with my own eyes are down are between Puente San Rafael and Puente de Andalucia on the south bank of the river if you want an idea of where some of them are.

Thanks for response. Off to Google Maps with me. Local or third world migrants? I wouldn't consider the latter to be part of Spain's lower classes myself, not in the short term anyway.

The Irish ones are sadly all too Irish. The photo I posted was O'Malley Park in Limerick. Of course I have seen similar on the continent if I am honest. But it was yet to be rebuilt districts in Serbia about 3 years after the war ended.

steddyeddy

bluewolf wrote: »

I feel like the last time I looked at this, the UK fees were easily double the irish ones, so ours are more within reach for people

Indeed they are B and there's a lot more restrictions on entering Eton or Harrow than how much money you can pay.

20silkcut

murpho999 wrote: »

OK, thanks but why do these peerages and nobility titles in Ireland still exist?

The peerage is nothing to do with the Irish government. All those titles are granted by the crown in England.

Can’t stop them using them.
It’s like part of their name.

partyguinness

We have something much worse than a class system.

We have "notions".

joe40

steddyeddy wrote: »

Listen I don't mean to dismiss your point. We don't want a situation like the UK where entry to the top schools effectively purchases your way into university. It creates a situation where the richer less able children get into university at higher rates than those brighter, but poorer. Cambridge came out with a study that suggested that the grade of someone from a private school is in reality worth less than the equivalent grade from a state school. In other words state school students do better at university.

At UCD I didn't see much difference between private and state but in the UK I was subjected to hooray henrys that were thick as pig sh1t but were effectively bought into university.

As the saying goes "The cream of the country - rich and thick"

s1ippy

You wouldn't know it on here.

"I hate travellers"
"I hate social housing"
"I hate youths on mopeds"
"Everyone in that house is on the dole"

If you ignore all those types of instance of class prejudice then I suppose no, there's no issue around social classes in Ireland.

Stovepipe

With regard to class in the UK,you must look at the Regimental system in the British Army. Entry into the Guards was dependent on who you were, what school you went to, what bit of England you owned and so on. Entry was strictly by invitation and Officers were expected to have independent means (come from money), their own house/car/land,etc and it has only been democratised relatively recently. Gentlemen were expected to serve for a few years and then move to a job in the City, all through contacts and being in the "right" Regiment. The aforementioned Rees-Mogg wouldn't have got a look in,in some quarters,for being a Catholic and not having served in the Army. You're dealing with an ancient mentality that, to some minds, would regard the current Queen of England's family as being low rent.

20silkcut

Stovepipe wrote: »

With regard to class in the UK,you must look at the Regimental system in the British Army. Entry into the Guards was dependent on who you were, what school you went to, what bit of England you owned and so on. Entry was strictly by invitation and Officers were expected to have independent means (come from money), their own house/car/land,etc and it has only been democratised relatively recently. Gentlemen were expected to serve for a few years and then move to a job in the City, all through contacts and being in the "right" Regiment. The aforementioned Rees-Mogg wouldn't have got a look in,in some quarters,for being a Catholic and not having served in the Army. You're dealing with an ancient mentality that, to some minds, would regard the current Queen of England's family as being low rent.

Yes it’s reckoned that’s one of the reasons that the English monarchy has survived. They are distant from the English aristocracy.
At one time they were German speaking and strong German heritage.
Then you had the abdication crisis of 1936 with the king marrying an American divorcee.
Princess Diana was upper class but not from the top echelons of the aristocracy.

Kate Middleton is a commoner.
And Meghan Markle a Mixed race divorced commoner .

In other countries that have lost their monarchy there was much closer ties between the monarchy and the aristocracy so much so that inbreeding became an issue.

StackSteevens

bluewolf wrote: »

I feel like the last time I looked at this, the UK fees were easily double the irish ones, so ours are more within reach for people

I don't know the situation in the UK, but in Ireland the taxpayer funds teachers' salaries in fee paying schools, so the private school fees are really for extra-curricular "extras" - things like professional rugby coaches - rather than for meeting the full cost of the education.

StackSteevens

steddyeddy wrote: »

Indeed they are B and there's a lot more restrictions on entering Eton or Harrow than how much money you can pay.

For the record, over 20% of pupils in both Eton and Harrow are on scholarships (or bursaries as they call them). These pupils - all coming from poorer family backgrounds - are selected on merit following tests and interview.

Achebe

topper75 wrote: »

The rubbish wasn't collected in Naples? Some women on the game? Dear oh dear I was risking life and limb walking around those neighbourhoods so wasn't I?

Everyone I know that has spent time in Naples has commented on the level of crime there. It's a known stronghold of organized crime and has been for centuries.

steddyeddy

StackSteevens wrote: »

For the record, over 20% of pupils in both Eton and Harrow are on scholarships (or bursaries as they call them). These pupils - all coming from poorer family backgrounds - are selected on merit following tests and interview.

They are indeed S. However, the number of scholarships aren't necessarily reflective of the percentage of poor students in attendance. For example, Boris Johnson comes from a very well off family yet he was on an academic scholarship to Eton which enabled reduced fees. Prior to this he was sent to an expensive prep school called Ashdown house. So he's a scholarship recipient but not a poor student.

When Mogg was in attendance there was no entrance exam. Some of these boy's parents just bought their children's way into university.

jippo nolan

Achebe wrote: »

Everyone I know that has spent time in Naples has commented on the level of crime there. It's a known stronghold of organized crime and has been for centuries.

As a police man advised me in Naples, wear a plastic watch!

daithi1970

the Education system is by and large egalitarian, much more so than the Old School Tie network that pervades the British Education System

the GAA is a great leveler, which has added a social cohesion which is absent from the uk.

Del.Monte

daithi1970 wrote: »

the Education system is by and large egalitarian, much more so than the Old School Tie network that pervades the British Education System

the GAA is a great leveler, which has added a social cohesion which is absent from the uk.

Ah, but GAA isn't played by everybody is it?

Airyfairy12

FTA69 wrote: »

Also the class system here is much more permeable once you have money. You can come from a humble background in Ireland and become a wealthy barrister or property developer and immediately access private schools, the gaff in D4, exclusive golf clubs etc once you have the money.

The likes of Jonny Ronan or someone in the UK wouldn’t be able to fit that easily into the social networks that spawned the likes of Boris Johnson for instance.

Thats not true, if you dont have connections it's unlikely you will work your way up the career ladder so easily, also its very expensive to become a barrister and considering the only course to train is in Kings in, in an affluent part of Dublin where most working class people cant afford to live not study full time or engage with unpaid internships. The same goes for most upper class jobs. Its easy to get an undergraduate degree but beyond that, it's costly beyond what most working class or lower middle class people can afford, unless they have family support + a job on the side and no responsibilities. Its not impossible, im sure theres exceptions but theres a reason why so many Barristers, Solicitors, Doctors, property developers, psychiatrists etc are generally from upper class families and often have been privately educated.

Irelands a smaller country that has been generally quite poor up until we joined the EU. Its only since the Celtic Tiger we've really started to see a divide in wealth and it's getting worse.
College fees are going up, the minimum wage is not a living wage, homelessness is on the rise, insurance, house prices and rent are barely affordable for allot of people with full time jobs - mainly people working what would be considered lower class jobs despite most of them requiring an education level beyond the leaving cert.

Someone mentioned a millionaire farmer drinking in a local pub, the same happens in other countries, millionaire farmers are rare and the job itself isnt considered upper class.

Rarely will you see a wealthy politician or Barrister drinking in a small pub with less well off locals.

Ireland is filled with nepotism to the point of corruption, the divide here isnt the same as other countries but it is still here. Youd need to be very priviliged yourself to deny that it exists.

partyguinness

You can't compare Ireland and UK on any level.

The UK is a large multi cultural and multi layered society at the centre of world commerce and trade with nearly 70m people. Ireland is a small indigenous island of 4m people. That is not a criticism but a statement of fact.

In fact being such a small country is a blessing in some respects and why we do not have a 'class system'.

Judging by this thread some posters have a rather narrow vision of the UK. Let's put it this way- I have been living here 10 years. Probably 90% of the people I deal with on a day to day basis are non white. I have sat in meetings with say 5-6 people and there is no British person present. Quite normal.

A work colleague has her daughter in a local school. She is the only 'white' kid in a class of 30.

partyguinness

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Thats not true, if you dont have connections it's unlikely you will work your way up the career ladder so easily, also its very expensive to become a barrister and considering the only course to train is in Kings in, in an affluent part of Dublin where most working class people cant afford to live not study full time or engage with unpaid internships. The same goes for most upper class jobs. Its easy to get an undergraduate degree but beyond that, it's costly beyond what most working class or lower middle class people can afford, unless they have family support + a job on the side and no responsibilities. Its not impossible, im sure theres exceptions but theres a reason why so many Barristers, Solicitors, Doctors, property developers, psychiatrists etc are generally from upper class families and often have been privately educated.

I would agree with the original point. It is nowhere near like the ceiling in the UK.


I am personally friends with many solictors and barristers and only a very small minority come from 'upper middle class' backgrounds. Some do of course but no where near the majoirty.


A few years ago in the pub a buddy (a teacher) was making the same point: "Oh you have to be loaded and going to fee paying scholl to be a lawyer." Which is a rather lazy stereotype.

I gently pointed out that our leaving cert year alone spawned 2 barristers and 1 solicitor- all now very successul and high flying.

I pointed out their backgrounds: rural west of Ireland, both barristers come from small farming backgrounds (bad land) with zero 'pull' in the legal profession and the solicitor's father is a plumber all with stay at home mothers. Completely shot down his argument. They were bright and worked their asses off- got there on merit and ability. They are certainly not from well heeled connected backgrounds.

Now I live in the UK and I can tell you that you would have to search high and low to find similar stories.

Airyfairy12

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Thats not true, if you dont have connections it's unlikely you will work your way up the career ladder so easily, also its very expensive to become a barrister and considering the only course to train is in Kings in, in an affluent part of Dublin where most working class people cant afford to live not study full time or engage with unpaid internships. The same goes for most upper class jobs. Its easy to get an undergraduate degree but beyond that, it's costly beyond what most working class or lower middle class people can afford, unless they have family support + a job on the side and no responsibilities. Its not impossible, im sure theres exceptions but theres a reason why so many Barristers, Solicitors, Doctors, property developers, psychiatrists etc are generally from upper class families and often have been privately educated.

Irelands a smaller country that has been generally quite poor up until we joined the EU. Its only since the Celtic Tiger we've really started to see a divide in wealth and it's getting worse.
College fees are going up, the minimum wage is not a living wage, homelessness is on the rise, insurance, house prices and rent are barely affordable for allot of people with full time jobs - mainly people working what would be considered lower class jobs despite most of them requiring an education level beyond the leaving cert.

Someone mentioned a millionaire farmer drinking in a local pub, the same happens in other countries, millionaire farmers are rare and the job itself isnt considered upper class.

Rarely will you see a wealthy politician or Barrister drinking in a small pub with less well off locals.

Ireland is filled with nepotism to the point of corruption, the divide here isnt the same as other countries but it is still here. Youd need to be very priviliged yourself to deny that it exists.

On the millionaire farmers - there is a definite difference between Ireland and the UK (excluding NI) there.
We have benefited from various nationalist land reforms transferring land ownership from absentee landlords to farmers creating an asset owning class who gain or lose from their own decisions.
In the UK the land is still owned by various lords or City bankers or whatever and the farmers are tenants.
The farm might be ten times bigger than here but they still have to pay the rent or they are out on their ear.
Its also why we build so many one off houses here relative to the UK.

Airyfairy12

partyguinness wrote: »

I would agree with the original point. It is nowhere near like the ceiling in the UK.


I am personally friends with many solictors and barristers and only a very small minority come from 'upper middle class' backgrounds. Some do of course but no where near the majoirty.


A few years ago in the pub a buddy (a teacher) was making the same point: "Oh you have to be loaded and going to fee paying scholl to be a lawyer." Which is a rather lazy stereotype.

I gently pointed out that our leaving cert year alone spawned 2 barristers and 1 solicitor- all now very successul and high flying.

I pointed out their backgrounds: rural west of Ireland, both barristers come from small farming backgrounds (bad land) with zero 'pull' in the legal profession and the solicitor's father is a plumber all with stay at home mothers. Completely shot down his argument. They were bright and worked their asses off- got there on merit and ability. They are certainly not from well heeled connected backgrounds.

Now I live in the UK and I can tell you that you would have to search high and low to find similar stories.

Becoming a lawyer isnt the same as becoming a Barrister, as I said in my post, almost anyone can do a 4 year degree regardless of income. Also, as mentioned, its not impossible and there are exceptions. Id also wonder when these friends of yours qualified?
Regardless, there are lots of intelligent, bright, hard working people that dont progress to high status jobs because roads blocks put in place, namely money and this has increased massively in the last 10 - 15 years.
For example if your teacher friend qualified 10 years ago, assuming he got a grant to cover his undergrad fees but not his teaching qualification fees, in total he would have had a cost of 2 -5 thousand to pay in fees. He also would have graduated into a high paying profession.

If he were to qualify now under the same circumstances with undergrad fees covered by the grant and his postgrad paid for by himself, he would have to pay between 12 - 18 thousand euro depending on the University. Some teaching subjects can only be thought at certain Universities. He would then be graduating into a profession with much lower pay than previous graduates from 10 years ago.

Not impossible to do alone but hugely difficult for people from very low income backgrounds and almost impossible for low income people with responsibilities, ie children, mortgage or high rent payments.

It is the exact same for all other professions that require a higher level of education beyond an undergraduate.

Denying a class system is Ireland is like sticking your head in the sand! Tell that to the homeless working families in Dublin and all over Ireland whove been illegally kicked out of their homes because they cant afford their rising rents.

partyguinness

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Becoming a lawyer isnt the same as becoming a Barrister, as I said in my post, almost anyone can do a 4 year degree regardless of income. Also, as mentioned, its not impossible and there are exceptions. Id also wonder when these friends of yours qualified?
Regardless, there are lots of intelligent, bright, hard working people that dont progress to high status jobs because roads blocks put in place, namely money and this has increased massively in the last 10 - 15 years.
For example if your teacher friend qualified 10 years ago, assuming he got a grant to cover his undergrad fees but not his teaching qualification fees, in total he would have had a cost of 2 -5 thousand to pay in fees.
If he were to qualify now under the same circumstances with undergrad fees covered by the grant and his postgrad paid for by himself, he would have to pay between 12 - 18 thousand euro depending on the University. Some teaching subjects can only be thought at certain Universities.
Not impossible to do alone but hugely difficult for people from very low income backgrounds and almost impossible for low income people with responsibilities, ie children, mortgage or high rent payments.

It is the exact same for all other professions that require a higher level of education beyond an undergraduate.

Denying a class system is Ireland is like sticking your head in the sand! Tell that to the homeless working families in Dublin and all over Ireland whove been illegally kicked out of their homes because they cant afford their rising rents.

But you see there are plenty of exceptions. Now I get take your point that you have to able to afford to live and support yourself in Dublin and my barrister friends did supplement their income by tutoring to get through but that has always been the case. In the old days- you actually paid your training firm to take on.

I distinctly recall our Career Guidance teacher standing in front of our leaving cert class in 1995 and telling us all straight out to forget about a career in law unless you have some massive connections/family background. Full stop. Do not even think about it. It was all about science- there was clearly a massive drive in the mid-90s to push school leavers into science/bio medicine.

That proved to be the biggest load of bull**** ever and all it did was perpetuate a lazy stereotype. Yes of course it would be extremely useful if you need a training contract that Daddy is also a solicitor and yes it would be an advantage but it ain't crucial. In fact, the lawyers and barristers I know did not come from legal well-heeled backgrounds and coming from these backgrounds would actually be the exception. Banks were quite happy to lend the fees and you didn’t start paying back for 6-12 months.

They would all have qualified between 2000-2005.

I went to school in a typical small rural GAA village- farming back grounds mostly and trades. There was absolutely no ‘professional class’ in my year. A few parents were teachers- that was as educated as it got in my village. From that same LC there are doctors, vets, accountants, solicitors, barristers, (now) bank managers, engineers and a guy who got actuary. Ok so in hindsight it was a very good LC year.

Yes of course like every country in the world you will have different levels of poverty/affluence/rich areas/poor areas...Ireland is no different and nobody is denying that. We all see it.

But there is nowhere near the same 'class system' in Ireland as there is in the UK.

Achebe

Del.Monte wrote: »

Ah, but GAA isn't played by everybody is it?

It might as well be in a lot of rural areas.

lertsnim

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

We have the exact same obnoxious ill behaving "chavs" here in Ireland that they have in the UK. The only 2 countries in Europe who seem to produce these types of people.

You must have your eyes closed when you travel.

OldRio

steddyeddy wrote: »

Yes indeed. I remember being corrected by some Etonian guy that Mogg was middle class with money, not upper class. I laughed thinking he was joking. He was insulted and said I didn't understand the British class system.

Absolutely. Old money in Britain doesn't have to try too hard. That would be vulgar. The upper classes over yonder can't stand the upper middle. Uppity types talking about money and showing their new found wealth. 'Absolutely frightful.'

Old money drives around in beat up Land Rovers. He wears checked shirts with the collars and cuffs thread bare. Patches on the 25 year old tweed jacket. She has a head scarf and tartan skirt.

I know these are generalisations but you get the drift. Whether these exist here I know not. Certainly not where I live.

partyguinness

OldRio wrote: »

Absolutely. Old money in Britain doesn't have to try too hard. That would be vulgar. The upper classes over yonder can't stand the upper middle. Uppity types talking about money and showing their new found wealth. 'Absolutely frightful.'

Old money drives around in beat up Land Rovers. He wears checked shirts with the collars and cuffs thread bare. Patches on the 25 year old tweed jacket. She has a head scarf and tartan skirt.

I know these are generalisations but you get the drift. Whether these exist here I know not. Certainly not where I live.

They tend to be asset rich but cash poor.

Connacht15

Any regular Taig who believes that he/she is the class equal of the likes of Lord Hogan is a right eejit!

bobbyy gee

Us dubs think we are better than the poor country folk
Even the poor dubs think they are better than the rich farmer who got EU subsidies all their lives

FTA69

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Thats not true, if you dont have connections it's unlikely you will work your way up the career ladder so easily, also its very expensive to become a barrister and considering the only course to train is in Kings in, in an affluent part of Dublin where most working class people cant afford to live not study full time or engage with unpaid internships. The same goes for most upper class jobs. Its easy to get an undergraduate degree but beyond that, it's costly beyond what most working class or lower middle class people can afford, unless they have family support + a job on the side and no responsibilities. Its not impossible, im sure theres exceptions but theres a reason why so many Barristers, Solicitors, Doctors, property developers, psychiatrists etc are generally from upper class families and often have been privately educated.

Irelands a smaller country that has been generally quite poor up until we joined the EU. Its only since the Celtic Tiger we've really started to see a divide in wealth and it's getting worse.
College fees are going up, the minimum wage is not a living wage, homelessness is on the rise, insurance, house prices and rent are barely affordable for allot of people with full time jobs - mainly people working what would be considered lower class jobs despite most of them requiring an education level beyond the leaving cert.

Someone mentioned a millionaire farmer drinking in a local pub, the same happens in other countries, millionaire farmers are rare and the job itself isnt considered upper class.

Rarely will you see a wealthy politician or Barrister drinking in a small pub with less well off locals.

Ireland is filled with nepotism to the point of corruption, the divide here isnt the same as other countries but it is still here. Youd need to be very priviliged yourself to deny that it exists.

Like you’re not wrong in what you say but I think you’re getting my original point a bit mixed up. I’ve no problem acknowledging the fact Ireland has a class system, as I said on another post any country with a capitalist system will have that economic stratification and we do have a ruling establishment that’s rooted in the media, finance, business and politics.

My original point however is that there are substantial amounts of people in well paid or ‘respected‘ jobs who come from very ordinary backgrounds and that that background won’t be held against them in the same way it would be in Britain. I also said that the Irish upper class is general predicated on money as opposed to archaic social signifiers. Which is also true.

Kaybaykwah

topper75 wrote: »

Did that.

It's no Darndale is it? A bit grotty perhaps - some graffitti - some unemployed youths - they might stare at you. You don't see whole blocks boarded up or ponies grazing in rubbish. You don't see women wearing the clothes they sleep in whilst shopping. You don't have 4 generations of successive unemployment. No kicking off wing mirrors for fun. No shouting and screaming at night.

We are in a different class (no pun).

Yes, the kicking of sideview mirrors is left to you guys, in French suburbs, they usually favor burning police cars and stoning Firefighters.

Mongfinder General

partyguinness wrote: »

They tend to be asset rich but cash poor.

Horse Racing. Full of these people. And absolute arseholes to match,

Wanderer78

steddyeddy wrote:

Do you think Ireland will ever develop a class problem like the UK?

Hopefully not, but class division does exist here, I'd imagine the fact we didn't go full retard with all this so called free market crap, has helped us a lot, but we have gone semi retard, hence many of our problems

Munstergirl854

Interesting discussion.I would have thought it to be the other way round;Britain being a much more forgiving country to climb the ladder in and better ones self.

There is so much nepotism and "pull" in Ireland ..it is suffocating.

On the class issue;we are definitely the poor relation.
Up until the 80's Ireland was essentially classed as a third world country,poverty was rife and then a once in a generation booster shot up the arse known as the Cletic Tiger made certain people think they were lords and ladies.
Make no mistake,the Brits would wipe the floor with class.
As mentioned about the millionaire in the pub,Sean Quinn in his day was a billionaire and seemed liked the guy who would floor pints and not pronounce his th's.

Take a British billionaire and you have a whole other ball game.

Wanderer78

Munstergirl854 wrote: »

Interesting discussion.I would have thought it to be the other way round;Britain being a much more forgiving country to climb the ladder in and better ones self.

There is so much nepotism and "pull" in Ireland ..it is suffocating.

On the class issue;we are definitely the poor relation.
Up until the 80's Ireland was essentially classed as a third world country,poverty was rife and then a once in a generation booster shot up the arse known as the Cletic Tiger made certain people think they were lords and ladies.
Make no mistake,the Brits would wipe the floor with class.
As mentioned about the millionaire in the pub,Sean Quinn in his day was a billionaire and seemed liked the guy who would floor pints and not pronounce his th's.

dont be fooled by our new found wealth, even though our country has experienced astonishing changes over the last few decades, many for the better, this has come at a price, we havent all won from this
Take a British billionaire and you have a whole other ball game

Hamsterchops

daithi1970 wrote: »

...the GAA is a great leveler, which has added a social cohesion which is absent from the uk.

All this talk about the UK as a single entity is bit misleading, the GAA is very popular in the UK, specially in Northern Ireland, the education system is also different in different regions & countries of the UK, the class system is also not as apparent in Scotland or Northern Ireland as it would be in parts of England. Ones class is mostly an English thing, I think.

Wanderer78

Hamsterchops wrote: »

All this talk about the UK as a single entity is by misleading, the GAA is very popular in the UK, specially in Northern Ireland, the education system is also different in different regions & countries of the UK, the class system is also not as apparent in Scotland or Northern Ireland as it would be in parts of England.

society is also moving on from the gaa, people have so many more choices now, for such things, which is positive

Seamai

landofthetree wrote: »

Down the country a secondary school is just a school. It tends to have people of all social class.

Unless you decide to send them away to boarding school, I have an in law who comes from a big farming family, all were sent to boarding schools even though there were perfectly good schools less than 8km away.
I've never come across such a bunch of snobs who think they are better than everyone else.
My Mum's says big farmers are often like that,
No offence to any farmers here but they shovel sh*t for a living, hardly anything to get uppity over.

Mad_maxx

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Thats not true, if you dont have connections it's unlikely you will work your way up the career ladder so easily, also its very expensive to become a barrister and considering the only course to train is in Kings in, in an affluent part of Dublin where most working class people cant afford to live not study full time or engage with unpaid internships. The same goes for most upper class jobs. Its easy to get an undergraduate degree but beyond that, it's costly beyond what most working class or lower middle class people can afford, unless they have family support + a job on the side and no responsibilities. Its not impossible, im sure theres exceptions but theres a reason why so many Barristers, Solicitors, Doctors, property developers, psychiatrists etc are generally from upper class families and often have been privately educated.

Irelands a smaller country that has been generally quite poor up until we joined the EU. Its only since the Celtic Tiger we've really started to see a divide in wealth and it's getting worse.
College fees are going up, the minimum wage is not a living wage, homelessness is on the rise, insurance, house prices and rent are barely affordable for allot of people with full time jobs - mainly people working what would be considered lower class jobs despite most of them requiring an education level beyond the leaving cert.

Someone mentioned a millionaire farmer drinking in a local pub, the same happens in other countries, millionaire farmers are rare and the job itself isnt considered upper class.

Rarely will you see a wealthy politician or Barrister drinking in a small pub with less well off locals.

Ireland is filled with nepotism to the point of corruption, the divide here isnt the same as other countries but it is still here. Youd need to be very priviliged yourself to deny that it exists.

one of my sisters is a solicitor with an elite legal firm , neither of our parents did the leaving cert and grew up in homes with no toilet or running water ( one in the west - one in the north east )

her and i lived in a house with no central heating until i was fourteen and she was ten

she worked from she was seventeen all through school and college and didnt spend every cent partying

shes on over 100k per annum now

Wanderer78

Mad_maxx wrote: »

one of my sisters is a solicitor with an elite legal firm , neither of our parents did the leaving cert and grew up in homes with no toilet or running water

her and i lived in a house with no central heating until i was fourteen and she was ten

she worked from she was seventeen all through school and college and didnt spend every cent partying

shes on over 100k per annum now

the game has changed significantly for many younger folks now, making these outcomes even more difficult, but best of luck to her

Mad_maxx

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Becoming a lawyer isnt the same as becoming a Barrister, as I said in my post, almost anyone can do a 4 year degree regardless of income. Also, as mentioned, its not impossible and there are exceptions. Id also wonder when these friends of yours qualified?
Regardless, there are lots of intelligent, bright, hard working people that dont progress to high status jobs because roads blocks put in place, namely money and this has increased massively in the last 10 - 15 years.
For example if your teacher friend qualified 10 years ago, assuming he got a grant to cover his undergrad fees but not his teaching qualification fees, in total he would have had a cost of 2 -5 thousand to pay in fees. He also would have graduated into a high paying profession.

If he were to qualify now under the same circumstances with undergrad fees covered by the grant and his postgrad paid for by himself, he would have to pay between 12 - 18 thousand euro depending on the University. Some teaching subjects can only be thought at certain Universities. He would then be graduating into a profession with much lower pay than previous graduates from 10 years ago.

Not impossible to do alone but hugely difficult for people from very low income backgrounds and almost impossible for low income people with responsibilities, ie children, mortgage or high rent payments.

It is the exact same for all other professions that require a higher level of education beyond an undergraduate.

Denying a class system is Ireland is like sticking your head in the sand! Tell that to the homeless working families in Dublin and all over Ireland whove been illegally kicked out of their homes because they cant afford their rising rents.

becoming a barrister is no more difficult, rewarding or prestigous

most barristers arent michael mcdowell level of skill or status , many barristers earn less than your average guard

Wanderer78

Mad_maxx wrote: »

becoming a barrister is no more difficult, rewarding or prestigous

most barristers arent michael mcdowell level of skill or status , many barristers earn less than your average guard

disagree there, i know a barrister, very intelligent guy, no heirs and graces either

Mad_maxx

Wanderer78 wrote: »

the game has changed significantly for many younger folks now, making these outcomes even more difficult, but best of luck to her

well she has yet to buy a home but i was replying to the post who claimed you need to come from wealth to make it in law

it did take her a year extra to get an apprenticeship with a firm as no solicitors in the family but she got one eventually

Mad_maxx

Wanderer78 wrote: »

disagree there, i know a barrister, very intelligent guy, no heirs and graces either

dont know what we are disagreeing on ?

Wanderer78

Mad_maxx wrote: »

dont know what we are disagreeing on ?

sorry im half asleep here, just reread your post now