How come we never developed the same problems with class as they do in the UK?

JasonStatham

Del.Monte wrote: »

Ah, but GAA isn't played by everybody is it?

And GAA is really classist, I find.

limnam

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

We have the exact same obnoxious ill behaving "chavs" here in Ireland that they have in the UK. The only 2 countries in Europe who seem to produce these types of people. The only 2 countries where you'll see women go to the supermarket in pajamas at 2pm.

Your trips to Paris were limited to seeing the tower then.

For the most part we've no idea what real scum is like.

Naples would also be a real eye opener for you

riclad

I think theres chavs in every country, its just most media we watch here
are uk are american based .
Not many people here watch french or german or italian drama,s .
most people here watch more programs on itv or bbc than rte .
theres russian mafia and italian mafia .
Are you saying theres no crime in france or germany or other european countrys ?

Seamai

limnam wrote: »

Your trips to Paris were limited to seeing the tower then.

For the most part we've no idea what real scum is like.

Naples would also be a real eye opener for you

I was in Naples last year, plenty of chavs there, they might dress a bit better than the ones here but you can still tell they're chavs.

Mad_maxx

JasonStatham wrote: »

And GAA is really classist, I find.

first i heard of it , its parochial certainly but not classist

IAMAMORON

Oh the GAA certainly is. It is obsessed with rules and telling everyone else who can or can't play it.

Very stuck up all things considered, all that winking, smiling and nodding make me wretch.

Never mind the cabals around the civil service and the banks.

beggars_bush

To be honest, our continued subsidising of fee paying schools here in the ROI is baffling

If parents want a private education let them stump up the full cost for it

beggars_bush

JasonStatham wrote: »

And GAA is really classist, I find.

Tell that to the lads in Ballymun GAA.
Or Rahoon in Galway City.

How could the gaa be classist when every area of the country has clubs - rural, urban, commuter belt

limnam

beggars_bush wrote: »

To be honest, our continued subsidising of fee paying schools here in the ROI is baffling

If parents want a private education let them stump up the full cost for it

Is the funding not the same funding a non fee paying school would get and the parents pay the rest?

Why would parents of fee paying schools not be awarded the same level as anyone else?

IAMAMORON

beggars_bush wrote: »

To be honest, our continued subsidising of fee paying schools here in the ROI is baffling

If parents want a private education let them stump up the full cost for it

They all get the same funding.

Get it right please, especially if you are pointing fingers.

IAMAMORON

beggars_bush wrote: »

Tell that to the lads in Ballymun GAA.
Or Rahoon in Galway City.

How could the gaa be classist when every area of the country has clubs - rural, urban, commuter belt

It just looks like that on paper.

Does not mean they are any less stuck up though. Very holier than thou. Ballymun is a poor example also. There are GAA clubs in council estates countrywide. But as an association it only looks after its' own and actively disassociates with other pastimes. Very classist when you think about it.

Shight like signing books going into clubhouses and exclusive parochialism. Deep down it stinks of us and them.

Ironically the GAA is so far up its' own hole with conceitedness , it never really considered that every other non member was scoffing at it. That in itself is a middle class trait. The irony. I blame the constant smiling and winking, it got annoying after awhile, especially when you never made "county".

In saying all that , I love the sport, it is the behemoth that the GAA has evolved into that I don't like.

Stovepipe

partyguinness wrote: »

They tend to be asset rich but cash poor.

True dat. But a lot of them were quietly wealthy; they don't show off but they farm yet have a lot of acres in parkland, their kids go to good schools in the UK, join British firms or the Army or start work in the City. I've met one or two in my time and you'd swear they were stone broke and went around in rags but if you knew what to look out for, they were well got.

partyguinness

IAMAMORON wrote: »

They all get the same funding.

Get it right please, especially if you are pointing fingers.

But access is not equal. That is the point.

Graces7

bobbyy gee wrote: »

Us dubs think we are better than the poor country folk
Even the poor dubs think they are better than the rich farmer who got EU subsidies all their lives

And try being English in Ireland. Unless you can dredge up some Irish ancestry..

Yurt2

Mad_maxx wrote: »

becoming a barrister is no more difficult, rewarding or prestigous

most barristers arent michael mcdowell level of skill or status , many barristers earn less than your average guard

Completely untrue. For the vast majority without connections, the first 3-5 or so years (and often longer) of being a barrister, you'd earn more money in Tesco. It's a highly attritional occupation and young barristers from wealthy backgrounds are more likely to stay the course. As for prestige, The Law Library looks down their noses at solicitors. They regarded Alan Shatter as a jumped-up solicitor and were openly hostile to him.

mariaalice

If we had retained our Gaelic aristocracy we would be exactly like the UK, our society developed differently.

AllForIt

Here is my theory. I've actually been thinking about this for a while not just conceived for this thread.

Think of Class not as a 'system' but rather a condition of the mind and like a virus that spreads. Nothing per se to do with varying degrees of wealth or social status.

So this class virus develops for whatever reason but it has to spread significantly if it is to stay alive otherwise it will die off. To survive it needs a critical mass of victims to be fully established but could still die out over time due to some seismic societal event like a war or something. Multiple class virus's can co-exist in the same region as another as long as there are enough hosts to sustain them.

So what are the effects of a Class virus once it takes hold? Well it affects (or infects) your sub-conscience which directly effects your behaviour in many different ways including: the way you speak, the social activities you choose to engage in, your dreams aspirations and expectations, your partner preferential 'type' including personality type, and critically the general type of ppl you are drawn to, which all adds up to one crucial thing - which is to be drawn to and mix with people who have exactly the same variant of the virus as you yourself have, aiding the virus to sustain itself through critical mass of numbers to survive via spreading.

One will instinctively know when one is in a gathering of one's own class virus grouping. You must abide by every little unspoken 'rule' in such situations of which there may be hundreds. Things you never consciously thought of like referring to Prince Andrew exactly as Prince Andrew. So silly but If you break the rules you'll know it. I recall once pronouncing a surname with not as thick an Irish slant on it as was expected and I shall never forget the reaction I got. Jeeze.

Now, to get to the OP's question my answer is NO, or at least not for a very very long time. Why? Because the Class virus that has established itself here has taken hold for generations and it's going to be very hard for other Class virus's to push in and reach a critical mass of infected people to sustain itself, whatever that actual number is. The fact that over the last couple of decades many have elevated themselves to more stereotypical upper class jobs is not what makes the difference - it's the class virus that pervades that does. Plus there simply aren't enough people in Ireland to allow multiple class virus's to take hold and survive particularly to get going in the first place. So, to have more obvious ' social classes' you need a much bigger population, like the UK, like the US.

A little more on the nature of CV's. There could be any number of them, some similar to others in the same way some nationalities visually are hard to tell apart but they are different and then some wildly different. The caste system and the black vs white class system in the US are 2 more controversial ones. CV's can overlap in the sense that you could have 2 of them at the same time but not much more than that. So a middle class white person in the UK could have one that is typical of a middle class person but also have a White vs Black one but the former is NOT the exact same virus as the US B v W one. They're actually completely different because they are in physically completely different locations, which is why I make this virus analogy.

Additionally and crucially they are completely natural. Claims that they are artificially created by say a capitalist system is false. Usually it's socialists that make this claim because they think they can get rid of the 'social class system' by transferring wealth from the rich to the poor. Nonsense. If a working class person with a typical WC class virus won the lottery they will not shed the virus they have for another one. It doesn't work like that. There is no way to completely shed the virus you have. You're stuck with it I'm afraid.
Note, this is not an actual virus, it's physiological conditioning that becomes ingrained in your psyche once etched there never goes away. Whether you think this is a good or bad thing is entirely up to you to decide but to think one can 'get rid of it' is naive.

Now let me speak personally. I don't like Irish Television and never have. I have always felt some aversion to it I could never explain to myself. In respect of the way presenters especially behave I mean, like the way a newsreader or weather girl looks into the camera, grimaces, says goodbye, intonation, etc etc. Mannerism's of a kind I suppose. Not just that, also it's the way they talk as if they know exactly who they are talking to. The way they assume you're going to be watching the 'big match' at the weekend (like who wouldn't be sorta thing). It's as if they know exactly who you are and they are behaving in a way they think will appeal to you.

I figure this is all unconscious 'class virus signalling' and the problem for me is - I don't have the same class virus prolly because I moved abroad fairly young, thus I am not drawn to it, rather the opposite because I see the same class virus across virtually all of Irish television, which gets a bit tired. And whatever class virus I have, and thus drawn to, I don't see that either.
As you might expect I don't experience this aversion when watching British TV. Whether that's because I'm drawn to their class virus or because there is much more variety of class virus present I don't know, but I'd be inclined to think it's much more likely the latter. No pervading class virus that feels suffocating to me.

One other example, I can't bear it when people assume everyone in the country is doing exactly same thing, however it is I sense that. I usually fell it most on bank holidays, big sporting occasions, xmas and any other stereotypical Irish occasion, not only. "Have you done all your xmas shopping" type of questions are triggers for me, as if we are all clones of one another. Not physical clones but in fact 'class virus clones' would be more like it.
Maybe we are virtually clones of each other which is an unsettling thought.

So now the question you have to ask yourself is, am I a sociopath, an F grand sociology student, or completely barking mad. Or is there something in that that resonates with you.

trixi001

There is a definite class system in Ireland - it just depends on where you are in the hierarchy if you notice it or not.

https://www.irishpost.com/news/its-time-to-face-the-facts-about-irelands-classless-society-9990

I notice it in everyday life - most of my friends and family come from a typical working class or farming background, many of us now have degrees and professional jobs, but there is a very definite ceiling, those from a working class background only progress so far through the ranks - the ones rising to the top on partner, director, consultant or CEO track etc, all come from a different, higher class of background - How many generations does this take to change, who knows - will our children be able to progress further?

Del.Monte

trixi001 wrote: »

There is a definite class system in Ireland - it just depends on where you are in the hierarchy if you notice it or not.

https://www.irishpost.com/news/its-time-to-face-the-facts-about-irelands-classless-society-9990

I notice it in everyday life - most of my friends and family come from a typical working class or farming background, many of us now have degrees and professional jobs, but there is a very definite ceiling, those from a working class background only progress so far through the ranks - the ones rising to the top on partner, director, consultant or CEO track etc, all come from a different, higher class of background - How many generations does this take to change, who knows - will our children be able to progress further?

Seven year old article from a rag. How do you equate your theory with the likes of the late Tony Ryan GPA billionaire and founder of Ryanair whose was father was a humble train driver? There are numerous examples of others who have succeeded to climb the ladder without being born with a silver sppon - Google is your friend.

Connacht15

Del.Monte wrote: »

Seven year old article from a rag. How do you equate your theory with the likes of the late Tony Ryan GPA billionaire and founder of Ryanair whose was father was a humble train driver? There are numerous examples of others who have succeeded to climb the ladder without being born with a silver sppon - Google is your friend.

In the context of The Taig Republic then or now, a so called public service job at the level of a train driver, given the wages and the perks and having to know the secret handshake as the primary precondition to become one, means it's a middle class job!