Russian opposition member poisoned with Novichok?

Dohnjoe

A member of the Russian opposition, Navalny, fell ill on a flight. There were claims he may have been poisoned. He was being treated by Russian doctors, but they weren't trusted so he was moved to a German hospital. Now the German toxicology reports apparently show that the nerve agent Novichok was used
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54002880

Don't have many details yet, but the conspiracy taking shape could be that the Russian government has poisoned one of their opposition members..

(Off the top of my head) When the ex-spy, Skripal and others were poisoned in Salisbury, it was confirmed by sources that Novichok was used. Two other people who later handled a perfume bottle were also poisoned to the same effect. The evidence was strong that Russian men, filmed in Salisbury around the time of the poisoning were involved in the poisoning. The Russian government put out a denial about the men and claimed they were just Russian nationals on holiday - it later turned out that they were GRU members, one of whom had received a commendation directly from Putin himself

Navalny has often been a target of Russian authorities, has been arrested repeatedly and put under house arrest, himself and supporters have also been attacked, plus he was attacked with chemical dye.

Is the Russian government just blatantly trying to off the guy or take him out of the picture?

Again, nothing conclusive so far, but if this is Novichok, it may confirm suspicions of possible Russian government involvement

Cheerful Spring2

Dohnjoe wrote: »

A member of the Russian opposition, Navalny, fell ill on a flight. There were claims he may have been poisoned. He was being treated by Russian doctors, but they weren't trusted so he was moved to a German hospital. Now the German toxicology reports apparently show that the nerve agent Novichok was used
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54002880

Don't have many details yet, but the conspiracy taking shape could be that the Russian government has poisoned one of their opposition members..

(Off the top of my head) When the ex-spy, Skripal and others were poisoned in Salisbury, it was confirmed by sources that Novichok was used. Two other people who later handled a perfume bottle were also poisoned to the same effect. The evidence was strong that Russian men, filmed in Salisbury around the time of the poisoning were involved in the poisoning. The Russian government put out a denial about the men and claimed they were just Russian nationals on holiday - it later turned out that they were GRU members, one of whom had received a commendation directly from Putin himself

Navalny has often been a target of Russian authorities, has been arrested repeatedly and put under house arrest, himself and supporters have also been attacked, plus he was attacked with chemical dye.

Is the Russian government just blatantly trying to off the guy or take him out of the picture?

Again, nothing conclusive so far, but if this is Novichok, it may confirm suspicions of possible Russian government involvement

Why would they use the same substance again, seems too obvious and predictable? and very sloppy.

Russia did this, do they like the attention it gets :eek:

I can understand Putin wants rid of opposition, but he makes it so obvious to the world here?

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Why would they use the same substance again, seems too obvious and predictable? and very sloppy.

Just to confirm you believe that the Russians poisoned Skripal yes?

Russia did this, do they like the attention it gets :eek:

I can understand Putin wants rid of opposition, but he makes it so obvious to the world here?

I can make a pretty good guess, but why do you think they used it on Skripal, a double-agent, for example?

Any reason you can think of why Putin would want others to know it was the Russian government?

ohnonotgmail

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Why would they use the same substance again, seems too obvious and predictable? and very sloppy.

Russia did this, do they like the attention it gets :eek:

I can understand Putin wants rid of opposition, but he makes it so obvious to the world here?

Probably they didnt expect him to survive. He was hardly going to get a proper autopsy in russia if he died was he? they delayed handing him over in the hope that all traces of the poison would have disappeared.

as for the russians being sloppy I think salisbury showed them to not be the uber-agents that people think they are. and i think you overestimate how much they care what the rest of the world thinks.

4068ac1elhodqr

Whilst it's interesting to see DJ propose a CT, this likely isn't in such a catgeory.
Instead it's a simple, plain 'news item' of a reported event.

There hasn't been any external denial that this isn't the case (laced tea), has there?
Indeed why would anyone question the German authorities on their conclusion.

If anything, Germany are great trading partners, and they often try not to annoy or rattle the cage of the great Bear.
Perhaps this is better suited to 'CA', rather than 'CT'.

Dohnjoe

Damari Obedient Cowhand wrote: »

Whilst it's interesting to see DJ propose a CT, this likely isn't in such a catgeory.
Instead it's a simple, plain 'news item' of a reported event.

There hasn't been any external denial that this isn't the case (laced tea), has there?
Indeed why would anyone question the German authorities on their conclusion.

If anything, Germany are great trading partners, and they often try not to annoy or rattle the cage of the great Bear.
Perhaps this is better suited to 'CA', rather than 'CT'.

The suspicion here is that the Russian government conspired to poison a political opponent. A conspiracy.

4068ac1elhodqr

Dohnjoe wrote: »

The suspicion here is that the Russian government conspired to poison a political opponent. A conspiracy.

Based on the German state verdict and their own official investigation that suggested this, not sure what there is to question about that. Factor in precendence also.

Do you beleive that he wasn't poisoned?

enno99

A Russian official accused of directing the foreign operations of Natalia Veselnitskaya, the lawyer who met senior Trump campaign officials in 2016, has plummeted to his death in a helicopter crash.

Russian Deputy Attorney General Saak Albertovich Karapetyan was exposed in a Swiss court this year for a plot to enlist another nation’s law-enforcement official as a double-agent for the Kremlin.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/russian-official-linked-to-natalia-veselnitskaya-the-trump-tower-lawyer-is-dead

Helicopters are expensive

Cheerful Spring2

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Just to confirm you believe that the Russians poisoned Skripal yes?



I can make a pretty good guess, but why do you think they used it on Skripal, a double-agent, for example?

Any reason you can think of why Putin would want others to know it was the Russian government?

Here, a powerful argument got provided- two men with ties to the GRU where in Salisbury, England. Did they poison Skipral and his daughter? Based on the evidence presently online, its looks highly likely it was them.

Who assigned them to the hit, is an open question. Putin or was it another character involved in the Russian intelligence/military service? Skipral had lot of enemies in Russia and the Ukraine.

This is a new event. We see how it plays out and if GRU men followed him onboard the plane. He got sick on the plane after drinking tea or those details wrong?

Cheerful Spring2

Dohnjoe wrote: »

The suspicion here is that the Russian government conspired to poison a political opponent. A conspiracy.

GRU are very sloppy, going around poisoning people with a substance they used in England.

Putin not care anymore about covering this up, is a very interesting take on things? I hate to be an opposition leader in Russia.

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Here, a powerful argument got provided- two men with ties to the GRU where in Salisbury, England. Did they poison Skipral and his daughter? Based on the evidence presently online, its looks highly likely it was them.

Who assigned them to the hit, is an open question. Putin or was it another character involved in the Russian intelligence/military service? Skipral had lot of enemies in Russia and the Ukraine.

I very much doubt anything goes ahead without Putin's approval.

It's interesting how we mentally downplay this incident, it's the equivalent of e.g. Trump having Biden poisoned, or Boris Johnson's government signing off on poisoning the Labour leader. The Russian leadership poisoning and murdering people seems almost "normalised" at this stage

chewed

Some questions...

• If the Russian state or "Putin" has poisoned Navalny why was he allowed to be flown out of the country?
• No traces of any unusual substances have been found by the two Russian laboratories which analyzed the blood of the sick Alexei Navalny. Why?
• While Navalny was allegedly exposed to such stuff why was no one else around him affected by it?
• Why was the German government so eager to get Navalny to Berlin?

ohnonotgmail

chewed wrote: »

Some questions...

• If the Russian state or "Putin" has poisoned Navalny why was he allowed to be flown out of the country?
• No traces of any unusual substances have been found by the two Russian laboratories which analyzed the blood of the sick Alexei Navalny. Why?
• While Navalny was allegedly exposed to such stuff why was no one else around him affected by it?
• Why was the German government so eager to get Navalny to Berlin?

1. Even putin is subject to some international pressure. they did wait as long as possible to hand him over in the hope that it was no longer detectable.
2. really? is that a genuine question? they are hardly going to admit that they poisoned him are they?
3. we have no way of knowing who else was affected.
4. Perhaps they feel that defending democracy by giving sanctuary to the leader of the russian opposition is important.

Dohnjoe

chewed wrote: »

Some questions...

• If the Russian state or "Putin" has poisoned Navalny why was he allowed to be flown out of the country?

I don't think they could forcibly stop him from leaving, short of handcuffing him to a bed in the hospital which would be obscene even for Russia

[*]No traces of any unusual substances have been found by the two Russian laboratories which analyzed the blood of the sick Alexei Navalny. Why?

No one trusts them. It's not like they would admit he was poisoned by a nerve agent that not many in the world have access to apart from the likes of the Russian GRU

[*]While Navalny was allegedly exposed to such stuff why was no one else around him affected by it?

Dunno. Not sure how it was administered.

[*]Why was the German government so eager to get Navalny to Berlin?

I believe it was Navalny's people who were keen to get him out of Russia

SantaClaw

I have no doubt that Putin is willing to make his enemies disappear. And chances are someone just ****ed up and the whole thing is as it appears.

But the whole thing does lend itself well to conspiracy.

The USA is not happy with Germany and Russia having a new pipeline.
Germany isn't bowing to the mounting pressure from the US.
Navalny gets poised in a way that screams Russia did it. Not a quite car accident, not a random mugging gone wrong, a nerve agent only Russia would use.
Gets flown to Germany and now everyone demands to stop the pipeline.

Your tinfoil hat doesn't have to be that thick to see how it is rather convenient for the US and not exactly impossible for a US agent to have poisoned him, or used some Russian assets to do it.

4068ac1elhodqr

Santa above, has the 1st interesting point so far, regarding Nord Stream 2 (and the US wanting to increase it's own LNG sales to Euroland).

Still saying that, the big $bn pipe project is near completion, would cost jobs and (covid ridden) economies fiscal damage to stop at this very late stage.
It's also just an upgrade to the existing one. It's also widely supported by RDShell and plenty of other Euro oil invested folks, Uniper are loaning near €1bn to get it completed, Merkel's party also want to see it finished early 2021, and will likely see it through.