What do you believe happens when we die

Mark Hamill

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

Why does anyone believe anything? Because they think there's a possibility that it may be true and I'm the same I believe it maybe true which is why I believe it.

I can't provide you any evidence to prove that it is true but, that's nothing new as no-one has been able to prove when or how our consciousness was created or when it ends.

I see it as one of the mysteries of life that won't be solved so yes you may describe it as "wishful thinking" but I think it's a more plausible explanation than we just die and that's it.

Fairly certain no-one can prove the theory that our consciousness ends when our body dies as we've no proof of that either.

So it's anyone's guess and we are all speculating as to what happens when "we" die.

All rational evidence points to out consciousness being a product of our biological brains - get damage to the brain (or take the right drugs) and you can be rendered unconscious or your personality can be permanently changed. In other words, when you are alive and these systems in your brain get altered, your consciousness and personality gets altered. Therefore when you die, these systems cease functioning, your consciousness and personality also ceases to be.

It's no more "anyone's guess" as to what happens when we die with respect to our consciousness as it is anyone's guess as to what happens when a battery dies with respect to the electricity it once held.

Even if you are right, saying we have no evidence and it is anyone's guess but then jumping to saying one claim is right and providing exactly zero evidence is wishful thinking 101.

nozzferrahhtoo

nthclare wrote: »

Id love to see Richard Dawkins or another agnostic try DMT and tell us what they think.

We have had a user or two write about just that very thing on this forum in the past. One user described many experiences using several forms of meditation and several forms of drugs.

I could track down a post, or maybe two, and link you to them if you want?

Your desire to see such people do it suggests you are expecting something in particular to happen? From their descriptions of the experience a lot of things happened, but I have a feeling none of them are what you are hoping for.

Spanish Eyes

A dear friend died recently and had a Spiritualist ceremony in the Funeral Home. Numbers limited obviously because of Covid. Was absolutely amazing. Reflected friend's values, love for others and legacy left. Great music too.

No God mentioned, no afterlife either, just who and what they were and what they contributed to life.

The celebrant was wonderful too. All in all it really made me think. What the F is all this church thing about. No one really believes there is anything more anyway, just celebrate the life that has gone and grieve like everyone else.

No one ever came back to tell me how wonderful it is in the afterlife anyway!

I wonder how many of the 80% will fill in 'Roman Catholic' in the next census.

Mark Hamill

John Hutton wrote: »

I think some people have a great misunderstanding of "faith". They just don't "get it".



Some atheists dismiss religious belief as simple fantasy, something nice to think of like Santa, tooth fairy etc. ("How could you be so stupid/naive etc")



Whereas for a lot of people with "faith" it is often based on personal religious experiences - transcendent moments of profundity, emotion, peace, security, grace etc. Much of religious belief is based on this personal "evidence", "faith" is not just "I think x".



All of which is far and away above the fuzzy feeling you have as a child regarding Santa.


It is important to note that "everlasting life" and a belief in a God, while it can (and is) be a comfort it can be scary too - while the idea of a perfect Judge dishing out perfect justice is comforting, it's worrying too, given that we are all sinners.

This is just an argument trying to say because your naivety is more complex than an a child's, your faith must be categorically different.


A child's personal "evidence" of Santa (visions of what they interpret to be the real Santa, immense positive emotional response to Christmas environments, the receiving of rewards for following his teachings etc.) are as real to them as your religious "evidence" are to you, and both as lacking in impartial, rational evidence.

volchitsa

sallyanne12 wrote: »

op here. Have to say I’m very surprised by the results. So many atheists. I guess it’s probably due to posting this in the atheist forum. Perhaps I should have posted it in after hours to get a wider view.
I used to believe in nothing for so long but then I realised it’s naive to think nothing exists after we die. There has to be more to life than just living and dying. I personally believe that life is a sort of test but I don’t believe in any religion. I believe we probably remain in a spiritual world after we die and what area of that world would depend on how good we are

Why does there have to be? Maybe it just happens?

When two people have sex and make a baby, did they do something amazing or did they just have sex?

I know you mean at a higher level than that, but I don't think you've proved why ther ehas to be a higher level, just that you want there to be one.

nthclare

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

We have had a user or two write about just that very thing on this forum in the past. One user described many experiences using several forms of meditation and several forms of drugs.

I could track down a post, or maybe two, and link you to them if you want?

Your desire to see such people do it suggests you are expecting something in particular to happen? From their descriptions of the experience a lot of things happened, but I have a feeling none of them are what you are hoping for.

We're they Atheists or Religious I wonder ?

nozzferrahhtoo

nthclare wrote: »

We're they Atheists or Religious I wonder ?

Don't think they define as either really but certainly not a believer in gods. You did specifically say Agnostic.

Here is an example: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=112220013&postcount=415

AllForIt

Bannasidhe wrote: »

That is interesting and I can see the logic - but it begs the question what state was that?
Again no one knows 'where' we were, or if we even 'were', before we were - if you see what I mean.

Actually the question I initially asked myself was - is there any difference between before birth, or conception to be precise, and after death, from an atheists point of view. I thought no. I think it's just the psychological way we look at it I was getting at rather than literally 'what state was that'.

Personally, I am not of the we die and it's like we never were school of thought - I would be closer to the Buddhists in terms of thinking of us as energy that continues in other forms than any notion of 'I' as a person continuing as a 'me' but sans 'rotting corpse'.

Well then maybe you'll be reassembled by chance if the universe lasts long enough. Or maybe a half you and a half me :eek:

It makes no sense to me that the data our brains accumulate (most of which we have no need for in purely survival terms) is a pointless exercise. Nature wasting so much energy just does not compute with me.

Nature is constantly expending energy. Look at all that heat from every star in the universe going to waste until eventually it's all used up, the universe will go cold while the galaxy's expand further and further apart until it's extinguished. That's the prognosis anyway. The thing that bothers me about that is - how could this happen just once.

I also do not believe (first time I have used that in this discussion) that humans are 'special' (I actually think we are a fairly awful species tbh) - if something happens after death it would be my belief the same something happens to all living forms. Life = energy and all that.

Speak for yourself:pac:

Well if you weren't special you wouldn't know what awful is in the first place.
Just being a bit smart there, but I have come across some academics argue for human 'special-ness' and they weren't even theists I don't think. Kinda dented my own view I once had which was we are 'just' the most intelligent animal. Not that I can recall a single argument they made for the life of me. Think my brain must be conserving energy.

John Hutton

Mark Hamill wrote: »

This is just an argument trying to say because your naivety is more complex than an a child's, your faith must be categorically different.


A child's personal "evidence" of Santa (visions of what they interpret to be the real Santa, immense positive emotional response to Christmas environments, the receiving of rewards for following his teachings etc.) are as real to them as your religious "evidence" are to you, and both as lacking in impartial, rational evidence.

As I said, some people just don't "get it". That's ok.



I have first hand lived experience of believing in Santa as a child and God (both as a child and, in a much different way, an adult) - I can remember the feelings you are talking about as a child. I can tell you that religious faith is an altogether different experience. It might look the same to you - but I can say that the reality for the believer is far different. I am saying that the lived experience of "faith" is different to other beliefs such as in Santa as a child.



[Incidentally, I have found that there are rational arguments for God, although this thread is not the place to discuss them. For example, I found Aquinas quite compelling on this, and also in particular the contingency argument.]

LessOutragePlz

Mark Hamill wrote: »

All rational evidence points to out consciousness being a product of our biological brains - get damage to the brain (or take the right drugs) and you can be rendered unconscious or your personality can be permanently changed. In other words, when you are alive and these systems in your brain get altered, your consciousness and personality gets altered. Therefore when you die, these systems cease functioning, your consciousness and personality also ceases to be.

It's no more "anyone's guess" as to what happens when we die with respect to our consciousness as it is anyone's guess as to what happens when a battery dies with respect to the electricity it once held.

Even if you are right, saying we have no evidence and it is anyone's guess but then jumping to saying one claim is right and providing exactly zero evidence is wishful thinking 101.

That's how consciousness is understood from a scientific point of view, I was talking about consciousness from a spiritual point of view as I believe that there is a difference between the two. You can of course be unconscious but, I believe that you would also still have a spiritual consciousness.

I believe our "spiritual" consciousness continues to exist after we die as it was in existent before we were born and it will continue to exist after we die.

I'm not claiming that my POV is right I was merely presenting it from my perspective and by saying that I believe to be more plausible than we just die and it's over doesn't mean that I think I'm right it just means that I'm more convinced that, that possible scenario is more likely to be true.

screamer

Our loved ones miss us, we are no more and become compost. Like all other organic organisms, that’s it. I’d love to have the comfort of believing we have spirits that fly somewhere, but I don’t believe in any of that, and if we could chose where to go, most of us would hang around our families, but I don’t believe in ghosts either, so it’s just lights out, we know no more.

John Hutton

Can it not be argued that belief that everything ends when we die can be for many a far more comforting belief than that there is an afterlife, judgement, heaven, hell etc?

Kylta

screamer wrote: »

Our loved ones miss us, we are no more and become compost. Like all other organic organisms, that’s it. I’d love to have the comfort of believing we have spirits that fly somewhere, but I don’t believe in any of that, and if we could chose where to go, most of us would hang around our families, but I don’t believe in ghosts either, so it’s just lights out, we know no more.

So were not going to meet Gandalf the white and journey through time. What a total bummer that. I finished growing my hair and this long beard, does anybody want to by a staff and hat and clear blue eyes. I'm off to have a shave

LessOutragePlz

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You're making a mystery out of somethings that really aren't hard questions.
What colour is a mirror? Silver (normal bathroom mirrors made with a sil ery substance. A perfect mirror would only reflect whatever light is projected onto it)
Why can't you taste your own tongue? A psychological process called Habitation
why can't you see your own eyes? The angle of the eye lens.
How can we know if we're both seeing the same information in the universe? We verify it by comparing evidence and seeing if the evidence is reliable and accurate.

What's the difference between faith and wishful thinking?

The time to believe something is possible is after its been proven to be possible. It's really not the same as saying something is possible because it hasn't been proven Impossible. The latter is just fantasy or imagination. Fantasy and imagination are fine but it is not the same as something being possible, let alone likely.

But I suppose I just can't get how you could believe something without evidence. If you believe this idea because it hasn't been proved impossible, but you don't believe in other things like the Loch Ness monster, how do you decide which things to believe and which things not to believe?

There are fundamental differences in how we perceive the world.

As I've said there are somethings that science can't explain and there isn't an answer for everything or evidence for everything and I'm fine with having faith in something I believe without evidence to verify it.

Obviously that's impossible for you to comprehend because you are clearly a rational thinker with a scientific mind. While I'm a more spiritual believer and probably an irrational thinker from your POV.

As for deciding what things to believe and not believe in it's more to do with having faith in things rather than believing and I probably should have clarified that earlier. As you have rightly pointed out to be able to believe in something you need to think that there might be evidence to prove your assumptions to be correct.

LessOutragePlz

John Hutton wrote: »

Can it not be argued that belief that everything ends when we die can be for many a far more comforting belief than that there is an afterlife, judgement, heaven, hell etc?

Absolutely whatever brings comfort to the person, as you can see from the poll 80% of people believe that this is the most likely scenario. So that argument is what the overwhelming majority of people that voted in the poll believe.

Spanish Eyes

The brave and true to themselves people are those who acknowledge that there is no existence after death.

I've been to a few non religious funerals in Newlands Cross. Very moving and quite reflective of that person's life. No worries about music or speeches or whatever either.

firemansam4

John Hutton wrote:

Can it not be argued that belief that everything ends when we die can be for many a far more comforting belief than that there is an afterlife, judgement, heaven, hell etc?

Well if you believe in some religions and imagine you could end up in something like hell with eternal torment and agony for our sins, then the idea of just nothingness for eternity would be very appealing I guess...

nthclare

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

There are fundamental differences in how we perceive the world.

As I've said there are somethings that science can't explain and there isn't an answer for everything or evidence for everything and I'm fine with having faith in something I believe without evidence to verify it.

Obviously that's impossible for you to comprehend because you are clearly a rational thinker with a scientific mind. While I'm a more spiritual believer and probably an irrational thinker from your POV.

As for deciding what things to believe and not believe in it's more to do with having faith in things rather than believing and I probably should have clarified that earlier. As you have rightly pointed out to be able to believe in something you need to think that there might be evidence to prove your assumptions to be correct.

There's one thing science won't explain but why it's destroying the earth as we all look on, and supposedly it's all for the benifet for humankind.

Which is more dangerous science or organized religion ?

Combine them both and you've carnage,greed and hardship...

Science is at it's infancy at the moment, just scratching the surface.

Was it you or someone else who said our brain's can run on a cheese sandwich, that's a good way to look at the difference between a huge computer and the human brain.

John Hutton

firemansam4 wrote: »

Well if you believe in some religions and imagine you could end up in something like hell with eternal torment and agony for our sins, then the idea of just nothingness for eternity would be very appealing I guess...

I think many draw, unconsciously or otherwise, what they feel is "comfort" from their belief that they answer to no higher moral, or ultimate, authority than that of their own conscience.



Many would be more than a little discombobulated if they were confronted with irrefutable proof that God and an afterlife exists... they would certainly suffer some... discomfort.



As well as being a great source of centering and grounding, "faith" is also a great challenge.


I think "faith" can be better regarded as a great, unshakable source of hope, rather than earthly comfort. And hope, for me anyway, is far better.

nthclare

John Hutton wrote: »

I think many draw, unconsciously or otherwise, what they feel is "comfort" from their belief that they answer to no higher moral, or ultimate, authority than that of their own conscience.



Many would be more than a little discombobulated if they were confronted with irrefutable proof that God and an afterlife exists... they would certainly suffer some... discomfort.



As well as being a great source of centering and grounding, "faith" is also a great challenge.


I think "faith" can be better regarded as a great, unshakable source of hope, rather than earthly comfort. And hope, for me anyway, is far better.

Hope is good, I think that's a good way to live.

I find living a life of hope and comfort more appealing than being obsessed with living a life of no hope or faith rather disturbing to be honest.

I don't believe in the Abrahamic God myself being a pagan.
But I have other hopes and a faith not so different from yourself.

You'll have to remember that regular posters here will dispute with that suggestion until the cow's come home

Bannasidhe

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

The brave and true to themselves people are those who acknowledge that there is no existence after death.

.

I'm afraid this kind of absolutest statement is one I have to disagree with as the fact is no-one knows what happens after death so claiming there is no existence is as much conjecture as claiming there is an afterlife.

I also find it interesting the need to claim that those who believe as you do are "brave and true" - how is that different from claiming that those who disagree are cowardly and dishonest?

Unless you can prove there is nothing then isn't it the case that your 'brave and true' belief is based not on evidence but on what you wish it to be - the thing that brings you comfort and no more or less valid than any other belief?

robindch

nthclare wrote: »

I've experienced atheists say this to thiests and they seem to think we're basically an organic computer that shuts down and rots. And they play on it for a reaction.

You should be aware that, sometimes, a person says something - not because some religious person is listening and might, yet again, get all hot and bothered and brexity, but - because they think it's true.

nthclare

robindch wrote: »

You should be aware that, sometimes, a person says something - not because some religious person is listening and might, yet again, get all hot and bothered and brexity, but - because they think it's true.

Sometimes is a powerful word, so is maybe.

But I know what you mean, we all have our off day's and thankfully we're not programmed the same.
What light's up your neurons might not necessarily fire up mine or visa versa, but at least we have the ability to accept that we're not all the same.

It would be quite boring if we were all the same.

one world order

There's one of 2 places people's souls go to when they finish this world, either heaven or hell. Most people end up in hell for eternity. This world is controlled by the Devil and his finger print is all around us. We have a choice to make, as God has given us free will to choose. Do we put our trust in this world and be deceived by the devil or do we put our trust in the bible and follow God. It's the biggest decision one will make in this world, which those controlling it at the top are fully aware of. Those who control the global financial system wouldn't be worshipping Lucifer in satanic rituals if he and his demons were not real. They also wouldn't be working behind the scenes to influence the media, film, music industries and education system to implement their agenda if God and the Devil were not real.

muddled1

I'm Agnostic (theist) - hoping for eternal life, dreading that we cease to exist, but really have no way of having a solid "belief" of what happens,

begbysback

John Hutton wrote: »

Many would be more than a little discombobulated if they were confronted with irrefutable proof that God and an afterlife exists... they would certainly suffer some... discomfort.

?? If god and an afterlife of heaven exists, the why hang around on earth and suffer? Any rational person would be on the next bus.

Excluding any nonsense of this place called heaven, we are left with 2 options, one is that Kansas are indeed correct and we are dust in the wind, the other is that consciousness doesn’t rely on the physical body to continue existing, and that memory does rely on the physical, therefore consciousness can continue to exist without us knowing.

begbysback

one world order wrote: »

There's one of 2 places people's souls go to when they finish this world, either heaven or hell. Most people end up in hell for eternity. This world is controlled by the Devil and his finger print is all around us. We have a choice to make, as God has given us free will to choose. Do we put our trust in this world and be deceived by the devil or do we put our trust in the bible and follow God. It's the biggest decision one will make in this world, which those controlling it at the top are fully aware of. Those who control the global financial system wouldn't be worshipping Lucifer in satanic rituals if he and his demons were not real. They also wouldn't be working behind the scenes to influence the media, film, music industries and education system to implement their agenda if God and the Devil were not real.

Let me see if I have this right chief, god created the world for the devil to control, then gave people free will to choose one of two options, either the devil or god, neither of which has a grain of actual proof, and if they choose the wrong one then they will live eternally in this place called hell?

one world order

one world order wrote: »

There's one of 2 places people's souls go to when they finish this world, either heaven or hell. Most people end up in hell for eternity. This world is controlled by the Devil and his finger print is all around us. We have a choice to make, as God has given us free will to choose. Do we put our trust in this world and be deceived by the devil or do we put our trust in the bible and follow God. It's the biggest decision one will make in this world, which those controlling it at the top are fully aware of. Those who control the global financial system wouldn't be worshipping Lucifer in satanic rituals if he and his demons were not real. They also wouldn't be working behind the scenes to influence the media, film, music industries and education system to implement their agenda if God and the Devil were not real.

There used to be purgatory until it was decided that it wasn't useful any more.

You have proof I assume all these financial wheelers and dealers, including people like trump, who you have supported numerous times on here, are satanic believers that your willing to share?

I do believe people can be bad bastards, not arguing this, but they tend to get the unlimited support of religious people when it suits there agenda. Some of them are even religious preachers like ian paisley, and that's even before looking at the send money now, we can cure homosexuals religious folks in the u.s., and a few other religions nutters of all denominations.

I sort of feel sorry for people who can't take any joy out of the world and have to try and make everyone else as miserable.
Looking at it critically you would have to say that those who claim to be religious seem to be doing and condoning a lot evil acts with their followers saying that every else is the work of the devil.

one world order

begbysback wrote: »

Let me see if I have this right chief, god created the world for the devil to control, then gave people free will to choose one of two options, either the devil or god, neither of which has a grain of actual proof, and if they choose the wrong one then they will live eternally in this place called hell?

When a soul is created, it cannot be destroyed. You are either with God or with the Devil. When Lucifer was a high ranking angel in heaven he wanted to be God and have everyone worship him. There was a war where one third of the angels following Lucifer were defeated and casted down to earth. You now have a similar choice, do you follow the world and thereby the devil or do you reject the world and put your trust in Jesus Christ as your saviour from this sinful and corrupt world.

looksee

one world order wrote: »

When a soul is created, it cannot be destroyed. You are either with God or with the Devil. When Lucifer was a high ranking angel in heaven he wanted to be God and have everyone worship him. There was a war where one third of the angels following Lucifer were defeated and casted down to earth. You now have a similar choice, do you follow the world and thereby the devil or do you reject the world and put your trust in Jesus Christ as your saviour from this sinful and corrupt world.

And all this is your opinion. It is not mine. There is absolutely no way you can show me you are 'right' because opinion is not fact.

begbysback

one world order wrote: »

When a soul is created, it cannot be destroyed. You are either with God or with the Devil. When Lucifer was a high ranking angel in heaven he wanted to be God and have everyone worship him. There was a war where one third of the angels following Lucifer were defeated and casted down to earth. You now have a similar choice, do you follow the world and thereby the devil or do you reject the world and put your trust in Jesus Christ as your saviour from this sinful and corrupt world.

So god has a troublemaker in the ranks, an apparently very powerful troublemaker too, so why did god decide to send lucifer to earth, what did we do to deserve that? Why not send him to mars or Pluto, solitary confinement like? Maybe god did send him to here and then realized he fcuked up, in an attempt to make amends he then sent his son who got crucified.

You gotta admit, god ain’t the best pilot here now is he?

magicbastarder

it's a deathly boring story if there's no devil, no-one would have paid heed to it.
for example, 'se7en' would have been a much more low key movie without the serial killer in it. it'd just have been a movie about a young detective's wife dealing with a pregnancy she wasn't sure she was going to tell her partner about.

one world order

begbysback wrote: »

So god has a troublemaker in the ranks, an apparently very powerful troublemaker too, so why did god decide to send lucifer to earth, what did we do to deserve that? Why not send him to mars or Pluto, solitary confinement like? Maybe god did send him to here and then realized he fcuked up, in an attempt to make amends he then sent his son who got crucified.

You gotta admit, god ain’t the best pilot here now is he?

We are made in God's image, but some of us are rebellious and reject God no matter what. If the Devil wasn't here we would not need to seek God out for spiritual protection. It's like sorting the good grain from the weeds. God sent many messengers throughout history, they were rejected by many and accepted by few. Those who reject the gospel are with the Devil and as God is the judge, there must be a judgement based on the decision we make while here in this world.

one world order

looksee wrote: »

And all this is your opinion. It is not mine. There is absolutely no way you can show me you are 'right' because opinion is not fact.

If you read the bible you would know it is from God. It predicted a falling away from the church and people being proud of their sin before the tribulation and return of Jesus. Look at how people are behaving today, following the media, being outraged and under the control of those working in the background.

begbysback

one world order wrote: »

If the Devil wasn't here we would not need to seek God out for spiritual protection.

So god sent the devil to here so we would then need to seek god for protection from the devil, whom god sent here in the first place?

I’m getting less and less convinced that god is the best man for this almighty job, in fact if I applied his standard in my job then my manager would have fired my ass a long time ago.

o1s1n

one world order wrote: »

If you read the bible you would know it is from God. It predicted a falling away from the church and people being proud of their sin before the tribulation and return of Jesus. Look at how people are behaving today, following the media, being outraged and under the control of those working in the background.

A stopped clock is still right twice a day.

Bannasidhe

o1s1n wrote: »

A stopped clock is still right twice a day.

Not if it's a digital 24 hour clock.
:pac:

nozzferrahhtoo

one world order wrote: »

There's one of 2 places people's souls go to when they finish this world, either heaven or hell.

Going on previous encounters with you I am going to assume that if I ask you to substantiate these claims you will either run away and not reply, or reply with posts that absolutely contain no substantiation but deflections?

Or have you FINALLY come up with some evidence for the things you soap box periodically?

Because generally it seems you have one thing you want people to believe, and your SOLE approach for trying to make them believe it is to make other stuff up to sound scary. It's basically "Believe me, or bad bad things will happen to you".

Threatening people is poor form. Are vicarious threats any better? By your fruits you shall know them indeed!!!

one world order wrote: »

We are made in God's image, but some of us are rebellious and reject God no matter what.

I can not reject peas at dinner if you offer me an empty bowl. I can not reject what is not there. What I DO reject, openly and honestly, is your unsubstantiated assertions that there is a god in the first place.

one world order wrote: »

If you read the bible you would know it is from God.

No cigar there kid. I have read it. Multiple times. Multiple versions.

The funny thing is the number of people who claim to be Christian who have not bothered to read it. Hell many of them have not even SEEN one, let alone READ one in my experience.

Makes you wonder if people really believe, or do they just like to signal to others that they do.

firemansam4

one world order wrote:

We are made in God's image, but some of us are rebellious and reject God no matter what. If the Devil wasn't here we would not need to seek God out for spiritual protection. It's like sorting the good grain from the weeds. God sent many messengers throughout history, they were rejected by many and accepted by few. Those who reject the gospel are with the Devil and as God is the judge, there must be a judgement based on the decision we make while here in this world.

So if people who are decent in life but just don't believe things written in some book and don't believe what the church tries to teech, a church in itself who covered up heinous crimes to preserve itself.
They are then classed as the weeds by God because in his eyes they have rejected him.

This does not sound like a god of love and understanding, more like a very cruel god of vengeance.

one world order wrote:

If you read the bible you would know it is from God. It predicted a falling away from the church and people being proud of their sin before the tribulation and return of Jesus. Look at how people are behaving today, following the media, being outraged and under the control of those working in the background.

The Bible is full of many contradictions and inconsistencies. I'm sure it wouldn't have required much foresight to figure out that one day people would start to question this stuff written down in this book so they predicted people would stop believing in it.

one world order

firemansam4 wrote: »

So if people who are decent in life but just don't believe things written in some book and don't believe what the church tries to teech, a church in itself who covered up heinous crimes to preserve itself.
They are then classed as the weeds by God because in his eyes they have rejected him.

This does not sound like a god of love and understanding, more like a very cruel god of vengeance.




The Bible is full of many contradictions and inconsistencies. I'm sure it wouldn't have required much foresight to figure out that one day people would start to question this stuff written down in this book so they predicted people would stop believing in it.

If people are decent in life and reject the gospel then yes, their soul goes down to hell. We are all sinful and fall short of God's standard. To say otherwise you are calling God a liar. That is why we needed a saviour. You see so many wicked people accepting Christ as their saviour and the holy spirit giving them a new heart with new intentions. They become a new creation with the holy spirit working inside them. This is why the devil is working so hard to trick people and make it a joke, you see it in cartoons, sitcoms, films, etc. By thinking it is not all true, these people while decent are doomed to hell when their time is up here.

where were you before you were born?

that's where you are heading back to.

if it's something, it's not something that was ever 'you' as you currently exist, so talk of souls or a link between this life and any other mode of existence seems like a reach to me.

talk of 'souls' just strikes me as fairytale stuff, if im honest.

personally, i dont believe in anything more than the organic. life is complex. consciousness is so complex it may never be mapped in a way that makes it comprehensible to science or theory. that's fine by me, the gap is where the wonder and beauty is.

just dont feel the need to fill it with religion nor the trappings thereof.

o1s1n

one world order wrote: »

If people are decent in life and reject the gospel then yes, their soul goes down to hell.

Why would you want anything to do with such an asshole of a god?

Eternal sleep. The body decays but the sentient life form does not. Soul, conscience or whatever you wish to call it remains.

No heaven with others, just dreams with your memory of others

corks finest

I believe that we go to a nicer place providing we were ok ppl on earth and we team up with all those who affected us positively on earth and as a Christian I believe in heaven and this place I now live as at times hell, maybe that sounds simplistic but that’s me, I hope to meet my dead sons,parents, brothers and sister and friends again

one world order

o1s1n wrote: »

Why would you want anything to do with such an asshole of a god?

God is loving, he doesn't want anyone to go to hell. Anyone who accepts Jesus Christ and has the holy spirit in them will be saved. It is our own choosing to reject that gift and instead follow the world.

LessOutragePlz

one world order wrote: »

God is loving, he doesn't want anyone to go to hell. Anyone who accepts Jesus Christ and has the holy spirit in them will be saved. It is our own choosing to reject that gift and instead follow the world.

We'll I'd rather go to hell than be forced to believe in Jesus Christ and some God. God is within us all not above us controlling everyone and everything. So you don't need God or to believe in Jesus Christ when God is within each and everyone one of us.

one world order

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

We'll I'd rather go to hell than be forced to believe in Jesus Christ and some God. God is within us all not above us controlling everyone and everything. So you don't need God or to believe in Jesus Christ when God is within each and everyone one of us.

No you don't. Hell is where demons reside, tormenting you for your foolishness. You need Jesus. There is a spiritual realm that we can't see or physically touch, but it is there. What happens in the spiritual realm manifests in the physical realm. Jesus has the power to expel demons. Over the last 2,000 years right up today, people have been forcing out demons from people in the name of Jesus Christ. When God judges you and you have accepted Christ as your saviour, your sins are forgiven as Jesus already paid for your punishment on the cross. When you reject Jesus you will be cast down to hell.

looksee

one world order wrote: »

If you read the bible you would know it is from God. It predicted a falling away from the church and people being proud of their sin before the tribulation and return of Jesus. Look at how people are behaving today, following the media, being outraged and under the control of those working in the background.

I spent most of my teens reading the bible, teaching sunday school and attending services. My opinions come from an informed viewpoint. I enjoyed my teens, and at the time went along with the church stuff because I enjoyed the social aspect. Even then I was not convinced, which was why I gave up sunday school teaching.

What you are talking about is more myth and dogma. I don't recall Jesus teaching any of the extreme stuff, the hate and disgust and despair you want us to take on board.

I have no problem accepting that a carpenter's son was a charismatic teacher some 2000 years ago, and he had followers who spread his word. You really don't have to look beyond the influencers, celebrities, presidents and tv evangelists to know that some people can do this, and others are more than willing to follow - it saves them from thinking for themselves.

All the convoluted horror stories that have been added in 2000 years are so much nonsense though, added solely for the purpose of garnering power and followers by the devious, for the ignorant.

LessOutragePlz

one world order wrote: »

No you don't. Hell is where demons reside, tormenting you for your foolishness. You need Jesus. There is a spiritual realm that we can't see or physically touch, but it is there. What happens in the spiritual realm manifests in the physical realm. Jesus has the power to expel demons. Over the last 2,000 years right up today, people have been forcing out demons from people in the name of Jesus Christ. When God judges you and you have accepted Christ as your saviour, your sins are forgiven as Jesus already paid for your punishment on the cross. When you reject Jesus you will be cast down to hell.

You're speaking like this is truth and the only possible option when it is all based on your opinion or your view of Christianity and God.

You say there is a spiritual realm but there is no proof of that, just as there is no proof that heaven or hell exists and you trying to demonise everyone that doesn't believe in God or Jesus Christ is one of the reasons I and many others have turned their back on God and Christianity. This high and mighty nonsense is painful to listen to and observe which is why people are sick to death of hearing it. So we'll just have to agree to disagree as no one knows what happens when we die and none of us can prove that any of the claims that you or I or anyone else in this thread have made are true.