Have NPHET lost the attention of people?

NIMAN

It's only a recommendation.

The government have to make the big decision.

Dr Tony can recommend level 5 for the rest of the year if he thinks it would be right thing to do. They don't have to listen to him.

He'll get his full wages, as will all the politicians. See what the voters do when they don't.

GarIT

A potential idea is to link amounts of cases per 100k to the lockdown levels.


Maybe 20 for each level e.g. level 5, if the 3 day average is over 100, per 100k people. Could give breaks in easier periods.

Valhallapt

Lockdown is a blunt tool, perhaps it does more damage than good.

Asian countries track phones and operate hyper local lockdowns. We have the technology here to do that today day, but the government feel locking down the country, suspending medical care and making a third of the population unemployed Proctects our civil liberties better.

I for one am happy to cede a little data privacy in return for keeping the country open.

We have an app that can be expanded, make it mandatory to use it to check into all indoor activities, shops, restaurants etc. If you come in close contact issue an alert to isolate to the phone, if the phone is found to be outside it’s geo fence the use gets fined.

faceman

It’s very clear Tony Holohan isn’t fit for the job. Even if we ignore him being at the centre of the cervical smear scandal and still being allowed in his role, credibility has been eroded

Due to family reasons he stepped back for a period of months
On Thursday acting CMO recommended no changes to existing levels
Tony returns to his first meeting yesterday and pushes for full lockdown
Info is leaked to pretty much every media source

Clearly there is huge disconnect between NPHET and Tony

I can only imagine the toll his personal life has been in past months, maybe that’s clouding his judgement. Either way, he’s not suitable for the position.

Public support for another lockdown isn’t there and won’t be. People have realised that “we’re in this together” has never been the case. The decision makers and NPHET will retain their 6 figure salaries no matter the extent of the lockdown. Meanwhile people face an extended lockdown with reduced PUP, inability to connect socially, removal of the mortgage moratorium, removal of eviction ban, an annihilated economy with no job prospects and fallout that will last at least 10 years

There doesn’t seem to be a strategy to any of this and without a solid plan, and I don’t mean that 5 level pile of nonsense that hasn’t even been adhered to by the government (level 3.5 Dublin? That’s not even on the plan)

The winter hse plan was published in September. We’ve seen no increase to icu capacity and scaryingly minimal hiring of additional healthcare staff. Remember that hse recruitment campaign from April? It failed.

The toil on Ireland will exist long after covid has been eradicated

B.A._Baracus

So many experts in the thread :pac:
Been spending the last twenty minutes reading posts and the sheer "matter of fact!!" mentality is quite funny.

Whatever side you may be on you all can't be right. At least half is going to be wrong. But from the wording used quite a lot of posters cannot phantom the idea of being wrong.

NIMAN

Valhallapt wrote: »

We have an app that can be expanded, make it mandatory to use it to check into all indoor activities, shops, restaurants etc. If you come in close contact issue an alert to isolate to the phone, if the phone is found to be outside it’s geo fence the use gets fined.

I think the civil liberties crowd might have something to say about that.

A bit '1984', no?

Pretzill

Pretzill wrote: »

I never bought into this level system - I think it was something the government imagined would ease public nervousness but I do believe if NPHET is seeking a lockdown they have a very good reason.

I just keep thinking of Italy in the early days and the horror of a very good health system imploding -

Shhhh you're not allowed to mention reality to some people on this thread. According to them this is all a hoax and complete scare mongering. Noticeably none of these people are doctors or medical experts. But will tell people that those 1,000 deaths a day in Italy in March either won't happen here because it isn't as bad as everyone thinks it is or should happen because "the economy".

SusanC10

Newstalk Breakfast are running a Poll on Twitter. (Tried to link it here but can't seem to do it)

So far 57% of respondents have voted that the Government should follow NPHETs advice to move to Level 5.

Longing

Wow they comments here blaming NPHET because we had no summer and that the Irish people had no break. Its absolutely laughable if it was not so serious. Why do you think you are privileged in some way Covid does not no borders or race or nationally. But we Irish have to blame someone who are making hard decisions to save our life's our family and friends also. Whats wrong is we don't like change no one does, But that's they way it will be for a while.

Look if we don't make mistakes we will never learn. Mistakes have been made we have learned. So instead of always looking for a escape goat lets pull together has one nation to overcome. Peace.

Dempo1

NIMAN wrote: »

It's only a recommendation.

The government have to make the big decision.

Dr Tony can recommend level 5 for the rest of the year if he thinks it would be right thing to do. They don't have to listen to him.

He'll get his full wages, as will all the politicians. See what the voters do when they don't.

Agreed but I suspect a brave politician to go against public Health advice. George Lee brought up an interesting point this morning, last Thursday NPHET issued a letter stating country didn't need to go beyond level 3, I'm curious to know what changed in three days, I get enormous numbers over the past week but Professor Nolan had already flagged potentially 1,000 cases a day.

My gut feeling is this is completely down to the HSE mess and its utterly inability to deal with a surge in hospitalisations.

I would also say, little is mentioned about other pote causes of the surge and I believe large retail settings is a factor, I saw first hand the chaos of shopping centres over the weekend, Zero adherence from what I coukd see.

Hector Savage

BringBackMick wrote: »

And to add- if we go into level 5 now, what is the route out?? Will we delay and delay like in the first wave? this is the issue.

People might survive with 3 or 4 weeks of level 5 but they will not survive with the though this is pushed out for 12 weeks.

No way out, just an endless cycle of lockdown -> ease -> cases rise - > lockdown .....

breezy1985

Billy Ocean wrote: »

Can't see public buy in reaching previous levels if measures are introduced.

People are drained from the situation as this stage weather we like it or not.

I'll accept it if lockdown levels increase. I'll be disappointed but if it's the expert recommendation it's probably for the best

faceman

faceman wrote: »

It’s very clear Tony Holohan isn’t fit for the job. Even if we ignore him being at the centre of the cervical smear scandal and still being allowed in his role, credibility has been eroded

Due to family reasons he stepped back for a period of months
On Thursday acting CMO recommended no changes to existing levels
Tony returns to his first meeting yesterday and pushes for full lockdown
Info is leaked to pretty much every media source

Clearly there is huge disconnect between NPHET and Tony

I can only imagine the toll his personal life has been in past months, maybe that’s clouding his judgement. Either way, he’s not suitable for the position.

Public support for another lockdown isn’t there and won’t be. People have realised that “we’re in this together” has never been the case. The decision makers and NPHET will retain their 6 figure salaries no matter the extent of the lockdown. Meanwhile people face an extended lockdown with reduced PUP, inability to connect socially, removal of the mortgage moratorium, removal of eviction ban, an annihilated economy with no job prospects and fallout that will last at least 10 years

There doesn’t seem to be a strategy to any of this and without a solid plan, and I don’t mean that 5 level pile of nonsense that hasn’t even been adhered to by the government (level 3.5 Dublin? That’s not even on the plan)

The winter hse plan was published in September. We’ve seen no increase to icu capacity and scaryingly minimal hiring of additional healthcare staff. Remember that hse recruitment campaign from April? It failed.

The toil on Ireland will exist long after covid has been eradicated

Dr Tony Holohan has returned. His wife is still terminally ill. He has been at home for months chomping at the bit listening to all the media reports and NPHET dialogue. He was impotent to do anything except perhaps offer advice, but he was effectively out of the picture. I think his perception is skewed because his wife is so ill. This is understandable but it is NOT being objective. I am not trying to be offensive or insensitive here but there is so much at stake for all of us right now!

I knew the MINUTE I heard Tony Holohan was returning that this would happen. He is back one day and WHAM! There is something very wrong here. He should not be running NPHET and the country while his personal situation is so critical. How can he be objective and balanced at a time like this? WHy do we suddenly have the strictest restrictions in the world bar Israel about to be introduced?

Downlinz

I think the public is certainly divided at the moment but they'll only regain the "dressing room" when ICU's are overcrowded, bodies are piling up and health staff begin having breakdowns due to the triage conditions and decisions which will be required.

At which point they'll probably be blamed again anyway for not doing X or Y, can already see it in this thread with someone blaming them for not easing restrictions enough over the summer so now the public is too fatigued for another lockdown. A mindset which acknowledges the value of NPHET's recommendation but blames them instead of the public for the public not buying in because of previous actions.

Seemingly no mental gymnastics are too far if the desire is to frame the medical experts as the villains of this pandemic.

meeeeh

I have no doubt they suggested what they think is best for the health service and to limit the spread of Covid. However their recommendations are only recommendations and it's up the government to make a decision. What really annoys me in this is that their recommendation was reported before it could be debated by government. In any normal company it would be considered insane if advice is first communicated to media and then to the management. Someone should tell them that they are not the 4th branch of government. They are advisers on one aspect of governing the country.

Valhallapt

NIMAN wrote: »

I think the civil liberties crowd might have something to say about that.

A bit '1984', no?

Yea, but It’s a Hobsons choice. Check in going to the pub or they close the pub...

If your on Facebook it’ll only be a fraction of the data your already given them.

meeeeh

Downlinz wrote: »

Seemingly no mental gymnastics are too far if the desire is to frame the medical experts as the villains of this pandemic.

They are not the villains but they are not the only stakeholders in the country either. Their advice should be given in private and not in public to bounce the government into a decision they want.

BluePlanet

People blaming NPHET is ridiculous.
It's not their remit to manage the fecking economy.

They make advice about saving lives from COVID, it's the government's job to weigh up the trade offs and implement things.

Humilde

Fiery mutant wrote: »

This is the problem In a nutshell. Do you Have any idea how many people in this country have a condition or ailment, or are in an age bracket where this virus could kill them? You think that many people should have to hide away so as they are not in harms way, just so you (just using the phrase, not necessarily meaning you) can go for a few pints, or go to the cinema.

It is the right thing to do, to try protect those who are more vulnerable in society.

With respect, the problem in a nutshell is we have too many people thinking like you. Virtually nobody is dying from this disease at the moment. All we are seeing are positive cases. You want to lock down society for no good reason. Trying to divide and conquer by portraying the healthy as some kind of evil cohort who couldn't care about those with underlying conditions is being used by many as justification for lockdowns. The reality should be that those with preexisting conditions should be locked down until herd immunity is reached through the rest of the population. It is a really simple idea to lots of us but unfortunately, the Government and their medical "advisors" either can't get it or, I suspect more likely don't want to admit that their plans to date have been a disaster both medically and economically. At the end of the day, its votes that they care about, nothing else. So as long as they feel that the "sheeple" are still following blindly, then it doesn't matter what kind of daft decisions they make, it will all be good in their eyes. What they cant countenance is the possibility of being shown to be wrong. For this reason, they will continue to double down on these insane rules. When these virus burns itself out through herd immunity, the same medics and politicians will still try to twist it as though it was these ridiculous lockdowns which defeated the "enemy". I am willing to accept that I could be wrong, but I go by what I see in front of me, not what someone else is telling me to believe.

Dempo1

Dempo1 wrote: »

Agreed but I suspect a brave politician to go against public Health advice. George Lee brought up an interesting point this morning, last Thursday NPHET issued a letter stating country didn't need to go beyond level 3, I'm curious to know what changed in three days, I get enormous numbers over the past week but Professor Nolan had already flagged potentially 1,000 cases a day.

My gut feeling is this is completely down to the HSE mess and its utterly inability to deal with a surge in hospitalisations.

I would also say, little is mentioned about other pote causes of the surge and I believe large retail settings is a factor, I saw first hand the chaos of shopping centres over the weekend, Zero adherence from what I coukd see.

That's the magic number really. When Italy had a disaster on their hands it was only 7,000 cases a day being reported. Going from 1,000 cases to 7,000 cases happens a lot quicker if there is no real restrictions on social gatherings. Once Italy hit that 7,000 a day figure their health service nearly collapsed on itself. Out of those 7,000, something like 10% had to be put in ICU care immediately and with that happening daily it was a disaster for their hospitals. Ireland is not immune from this as much as disgruntled posters on this thread want to believe and considering we have the lowest ICU bed count of most OECD nation there will need to be a level 5 lockdown once it hits the 1000-2000 cases daily number.

breezy1985

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Dr Tony Holohan has returned. His wife is still terminally ill. He has been at home for months chomping at the bit listening to all the media reports and NPHET dialogue. He was impotent to do anything except perhaps offer advice, but he was effectively out of the picture. I think his perception is skewed because his wife is so ill. This is understandable but it is NOT being objective. I am not trying to be offensive or insensitive here but there is so much at stake for all of us right now!

I knew the MINUTE I heard Tony Holohan was returning that this would happen. He is back one day and WHAM! There is something very wrong here. He should not be running NPHET and the country while his personal situation is so critical. How can he be objective and balanced at a time like this? WHy do we suddenly have the strictest restrictions in the world bar Israel about to be introduced?

It's the same team making the decision just with a different guy doing the media stuff. NPHET is never a one man team

GarIT

Longing wrote: »

Wow they comments here blaming NPHET because we had no summer and that the Irish people had no break. Its absolutely laughable if it was not so serious. Why do you think you are privileged in some way Covid does not no borders or race or nationally. But we Irish have to blame someone who are making hard decisions to save our life's our family and friends also. Whats wrong is we don't like change no one does, But that's they way it will be for a while.

Look if we don't make mistakes we will never learn. Mistakes have been made we have learned. So instead of always looking for a escape goat lets pull together has one nation to overcome. Peace.

Looking back, we could have ended most restrictions for maybe 2 months when the cases were low.

BringBackMick

BluePlanet wrote: »

People blaming NPHET is ridiculous.
It's not their remit to manage the fecking economy.

They make advice about saving lives from COVID, it's the government's job to weigh up the trade offs and implement things.

It is the easiest job in the world to say , cases are going up and hospital numbers rising steadily . Let's go level 5.

Give me a job on NPHET, i wonder how long the meeting lasted.

Lets go for level 5, cover our asses - let government make hard decisions.

nthclare

Some people can take the hit if there's another lock down, more people will be squeezed so much they'll be broken financially.

There's so many variables, taking people's personalities and metal health into this we're not all the same.

I could cope and make hay while the sun shines, I'm into craft, art and love reading have loads of things to do.
Lots of seasoned timber to cut, walks in the Burren at my doorstep, love astronomy and rural life.
But I can see how this would effect people who are stuck in a housing estate apartment block or like the city life, clubbing, coffee get togetherness, drinks, sports and leisure.

My heart goes out to people who are not adaptable to loneliness and having no contact.

It's ****.

ThunbergsAreGo

BluePlanet wrote: »

People blaming NPHET is ridiculous.
It's not their remit to manage the fecking economy.

They make advice about saving lives from COVID, it's the government's job to weigh up the trade offs and implement things.

Is it not their remit to communicate reasoning why this is happening? why they make recommendations beyond "der is more cases".

Now people will say they have access to more data than we do. If this is the case, its time to start sharing it. Any model they seem to have produced so far has been wrong (as its impossible to communicate)

Valhallapt

BluePlanet wrote: »

People blaming NPHET is ridiculous.
It's not their remit to manage the fecking economy.

They make advice about saving lives from COVID, it's the government's job to weigh up the trade offs and implement things.

NPHETs remit is too narrow. It is to stop deaths with Covid at all costs. It should be broadened to consider all health and conditions of the wider population.

A young father committing suicide, has huge long term health consequences for the children. You can’t say that one cohort of lives are more valuable than an other.

Royale with Cheese

meeeeh wrote: »

They are not the villains but they are not the only stakeholders in the country either. Their advice should be given in private and not in public to bounce the government into a decision they want.

This is EXACTLY the problem with NPHET. Can people really not see that by consistently announcing their recommendations to the media before the government has even met to discuss them that they are trying to use the public to force the government into enacting their advice? They're trying to call the shots basically. That was never their purpose and none of these recommendations should be made public.

Tenzor07

New Poll on the Journal: https://www.thejournal.ie/poll-level-5-5223725-Oct2020/

30% support a full L5 lockdown... all seems fairly even enough in the support for the various options.

NPHET need to be expanded to take in more business leaders, more medical experts, they are all locked into a "Groupthink" and Martin Mehole's Government are leaving the decisions up to the NPHET-HSE Oligarchy

BluePlanet

BringBackMick wrote: »

It is the easiest job in the world to say , cases are going up and hospital numbers rising steadily . Let's go level 5.

Give me a job on NPHET, i wonder how long the meeting lasted.

Lets go for level 5, cover our asses - let government make hard decisions.

We are now at higher infection rates than when we went into Lockdown.
Lockdown works, we opened up too early and too lax.

meeeeh

BluePlanet wrote: »

People blaming NPHET is ridiculous.
It's not their remit to manage the fecking economy.

They make advice about saving lives from COVID, it's the government's job to weigh up the trade offs and implement things.

And you don't see finance advisers announcing in advance what advice they are giving to government regarding budget.

You are right they are making advice regarding saving lives and they should behave like advisers not like politicians or lobby groups.