Have NPHET lost the attention of people?

karlitob

SchrodingersCat wrote: »

I think you mean "analytical" and not "logical". My logical argument still stands. I agree, the CSO death figures for Q2 will tell us alot about the death rate of the virus.
"Yer man using RIP.ie as a data source" is the CSO department that you are referring to. You asked if you "should accept a source of truth of deaths in ireland - particular Covid - can be found in whether Mary paid to put up a funeral notice on website"? My answer is yes. See what the CSO themselves had to say about it:

"Eight weeks ago the CSO published an analysis of the accuracy of the RIP.ie data and found a correlation of more than 99% between RIP.ie death notices and the official death registry data which is published much later. It concluded that RIP.ie can be used to accurately measure trends in mortality."

https://amp.rte.ie/amp/1161895/

You said " the eumom says we don’t have excess deaths". This is wrong: It is saying we don't have excess deaths *right now*. We did during the first wave of the pandemic. Right now we are between the first wave and the second so the number of deaths is lower.

This note represents an initial experimental analysis designed to indicate trends in mortality. When published, official statistics on mortality will allow for more thorough and definitive analysis and it is only in the context of full year statistics for 2020 that the full impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on mortality might be understood.

- as per cso
- as per me

karlitob

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The Irish state spends as much per capita as the UK spends on their NHS. With the NHS you get all your medication covered, free GP visits and to complain about waiting more than 6 months for an elective procedure. What do we get here for the same amount of money? Yet everyone involved in healthcare here reckons they could make way more money elsewhere. Funny that.

This argument is an old one.

- they’ve a much bigger population and have greater economies of scale
- they introduced free health and social from cradle to grave. We don’t have that policy in ireland.
- they pay for it in taxes. We don’t.
- they’ve invested in infrastructure over decades. We didn’t.
- that per capita spend includes private healthcare at about 25% I think which means that although we spend that money is not equally distributed.
- because of the absence in investment for decades we now have a higher annual spend.

- nhs is not all it’s cracked up to be. Pockets of brilliance and pockets of ****e. Just like here.


The comparable service is nhs Scotland - twice the number of beds for the same population - but they don’t have twice the patient outcomes. We do very well.

patnor1011

NPHET's advice of level 5 lockdown should be immediately implemented by everyone who thinks it is necessary. Lead by example, if you think it is needed then by all means go for it.

Nobody is stopping anyone from self-quarantine or cocooning.

stoneill

Hellrazer wrote: »

But you see this is the problem - theres not "thousands dying"
Weve had 1800 deaths in 7 months and even that figure is debatable and is probably only about 1000 at most.

Back in February we were told we`d have 100k deaths. The lockdown didn't save 98,000 and its not going to save 98,000 this time.

Its this scare mongering crap that has us the way we are.

Isolate the medically vulnerable and let the rest of the country get on with things.
That is the only solution.

What we were told in February is that if we did not lock down we would have 100K deaths, so yes it did save 98,000

suicide_circus

stoneill wrote: »

What we were told in February is that if we did not lock down we would have 100K deaths, so yes it did save 98,000

that was a projection, a rough estimate, we don't know and will never know how many would have died without lockdown.

zerosugarbuzz

stoneill wrote: »

What we were told in February is that if we did not lock down we would have 100K deaths, so yes it did save 98,000

Just because we were told we would have a hundred thousand deaths does not mean that would have EVER HAPPENED.

SEPT 23 1989

Feeling very uneasy about the whole thing this morning

agoodpunt

We have had many scandals in our HSE over the years cover ups people on trollies we have thrown the kitchen sink at it it needs reform and now might be a chance they can hardly strike and no public backing.
There are some good hard working people there for sure but the unions are so intrenched the have the power to bring down a govt.
I am glad these egoistical clown have been found and out i hope the govt got it right

RTE are staging a show most evening now sick of there bleedin faces especially "Lee" now I have stopped looking
We all need to where masks especially going into winter and need signs of hope not constant doom.
I am sorry for those effected

patnor1011

stoneill wrote: »

What we were told in February is that if we did not lock down we would have 100K deaths, so yes it did save 98,000

No, we did not.
There are countries with virtually zero healthcare who did not implement any lockdowns and where people cant even afford to buy a mask and guess what?
Pretty much nothing happened over there. No bodies on the street, no armageddon, no second coming of Jesus Holohan Christ happened...

DeanAustin

Gael23 wrote: »

Holohans position as CMO must now be questioned

NPHET as an entity should be questioned. How they can go from a position on Thursday where Level 3 is not needed to Level 5 being needed on Sunday is incomprehensible. To then leak that on a Sunday night is outrageous.

What is clear from the above is that NPHET’s position is driven by one man. That is not healthy in any organisation and cannot continue. What is also clear is that either he is overreacting or the rest of NPHET were asleep at the wheel up to Thursday night. Either way, there are massive problems with NPHET.

The government can’t work with a body whose professional opinion swings that wildly in the space of a few days, who are at the mercy of the opinion of one man and who are so unprofessional that they leak something so serious and blindside the government.

kippy

zerosugarbuzz wrote: »

Just because we were told we would have a hundred thousand deaths does not mean that would have EVER HAPPENED.

This came up before but if everyone in the country got this there would have been roughly 80k deaths based on mortality rates and age profile alone.
That doesn't take into account any issues caused by an overwhelmed health service.

kippy

patnor1011 wrote: »

No, we did not.
There are countries with virtually zero healthcare who did not implement any lockdowns and where people cant even afford to buy a mask and guess what?
Pretty much nothing happened over there. No bodies on the street, no armageddon, no second coming of Jesus Holohan Christ happened...

Where?
If it's a country where the average life expectancy is a lot lower than ours the rationale should be fairly obvious.

suicide_circus

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Feeling very uneasy about the whole thing this morning

That'll be the kebab you had for dinner

zerosugarbuzz

DeanAustin wrote: »

NPHET as an entity should be questioned. How they can go from a position on Thursday where Level 3 is not needed to Level 5 being needed on Sunday is incomprehensible. To then leak that on a Sunday night is outrageous.

What is clear from the above is that NPHET’s position is driven by one man. That is not healthy in any organisation and cannot continue. What is also clear is that either he is overreacting or the rest of NPHET were asleep at the wheel up to Thursday night. Either way, there are massive problems with NPHET.

The government can’t work with a body whose professional opinion swings that wildly in the space of a few days, who are at the mercy of the opinion of one man and who are so unprofessional that they leak something so serious and blindside the government.

Have to agree unfortunately. Tony’s ego seems to have ballooned, maybe the whole media profile has gone to his head. His actions on Sunday night we’re reckless, disrespectful and downright dangerous. Vulnerable older people must have been devastated watching the news only for it to be dismissed (rightly) 24 hours later.

IAmTheReign

McHardcore wrote: »

As in the death rate is low between the two pandemic waves? Well yes. No one is arguing that. The point is that coronavirus has significantly increased the number of people that have died this year that would have not died otherwise.

We don't know that for sure though, and we won't until the end of the year. Figures from August by the CSO showed that excess deaths YTD are only about half the number of deaths attributed to COVID

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0828/1161895-excess-mortality-figures/

Topgear on Dave

Steven Donnelly on morning Ireland now.

Presenter says "we asked for a rep from NPHET but none was available".

The media love this stuff and all the drama.

Thierry12

patnor1011 wrote: »

NPHET's advice of level 5 lockdown should be immediately implemented by everyone who thinks it is necessary. Lead by example, if you think it is needed then by all means go for it.

Nobody is stopping anyone from self-quarantine or cocooning.

If over 60s did that we would be on level 1, too many out and about, we are in lockdown for them

Leo/MM should have made that clear last night

If your over 60 your old, sorry.

Keep restaurants etc open for kids and 20s-40s

ID at that door

is_that_so

Thierry12 wrote: »

If over 60s did that we would be on level 1, too many out and about, we are in lockdown for them

Leo/MM should have made that clear last night

If your over 60 your old, sorry.

Keep restaurants etc open for kids and 20s-40s

ID at that door

That's an extremely ill-informed and callous post. At least you didn't suggest shooting them on sight.

Vieira82

I will ask again, since multiple people comment this. What proof is there the leak of the letter came from the NPHET side? When this gov. has had leaks and scandals in just a few months in power...

As a National Public Health Emergency Team the role they have is to inform the government, that's what they did with the letter. Sent on a Sunday after a long meeting which does seem concerning if you go around having meetings on Sundays and sending letters to the government...

This when they had a press conference on covid19 that same Sunday and they could simply had mentioned "we are recommending the government to go to level 5"

Instead what we have was a "normal" press conference and it's recommendation being sent by letter precisely to not cause disruption amongst the public...

It makes zero sense in this case that then they would leak the letter to the public.

However if someone in gov. some of the many aides, ministers and junior ministers panicked by reading the letter and having no faith in this executive (in fighting has been very staple in the last few months) then it would make sense for one of them to leak it to the press even if it was for purely causing this whole dumpster fire of the last two days...

suicide_circus

Has NPHET denied they leaked it?

patnor1011

kippy wrote: »

Where?
If it's a country where the average life expectancy is a lot lower than ours the rationale should be fairly obvious.

Nope. You fail to realize that age has not much to do with possible death from this virus. You somehow lump all older people into some bunch of possible casualties while disregarding simple fact that some of them may be even healthier than you are.

Covid is dangerous to sick people not necessarilly all old people fall into this cathegory therefore your "average life expectancy" argument is moot. It looks even worse when we take into account quality of life in these impoverished areas as wellbeing or healthwise most of them are the very definition of vulnerable. Age plays no role in this.

Chivito550

stoneill wrote: »

What we were told in February is that if we did not lock down we would have 100K deaths, so yes it did save 98,000

Bullsh1t. Sweden with twice our population has 6,000 deaths.

Why do people continue to spout this BS!

Thierry12

is_that_so wrote: »

That's an extremely ill-informed and callous post. At least you didn't suggest shooting them on sight.

Sorry

I know it comes across bad, my writing style is like that for some reason

Just think leaders politely need to tell the old that they must get off the street right now and it should be incentivised

kippy

patnor1011 wrote: »

Nope. You fail to realize that age has not much to do with possible death from this virus. You somehow lump all older people into some bunch of possible casualties while disregarding simple fact that some of them may be even healthier than you are.

Covid is dangerous to sick people not necessarilly all old people fall into this cathegory therefore your "average life expectancy" argument is moot. It looks even worse when we take into account quality of life in these impoverished areas as wellbeing or healthwise most of them are the very definition of vulnerable. Age plays no role in this.

What country are you talking about then?

And unfortunately, you don't seem to understand percentages and statistics.
The reality is there is a higher death rate (much higher) in older age groups. The reason the death rate has been lower the past few months here is that this age group are not getting it as much as earlier in the year (surely you can see this?)

In countries where the age profile of the country is lower and younger people get the disease, there won't be as many deaths - more to do with the population profile than health systems.
I realise lots of older people recover from this but that doesn't mean that a larger percentage of older people die.

Saying "age plays no role in this" is unfortunately not true.

kippy

Chivito550 wrote: »

Bullsh1t. Sweden with twice our population has 6,000 deaths.

Why do people continue to spout this BS!

Why are you using Sweden as an example?
Sweden have many restrictions still in place and in place through out this.
There are no countries in the world that haven't put in place restrictions.

Speakerboxx

Thierry12 wrote: »

If over 60s did that we would be on level 1, too many out and about, we are in lockdown for them

Leo/MM should have made that clear last night

If your over 60 your old, sorry.

Keep restaurants etc open for kids and 20s-40s

ID at that door

This statement reminds me of a certain dictatorship during WW2

patnor1011

Thierry12 wrote: »

If over 60s did that we would be on level 1, too many out and about, we are in lockdown for them

Leo/MM should have made that clear last night

If your over 60 your old, sorry.

Keep restaurants etc open for kids and 20s-40s

ID at that door

Watch out for being attacked by woke brigade.
How dare you to suggest locking up elderly. (As if it is not what they propose for everyone to be locked up for the same reason elderly included)

You will also be accused of being gran and pop killer and nazi for wanting to strip them of their enjoyment of life. (As if there would be any with rolling out lockdowns)

Don't forget we are all in this and we have to do it to protect the vulnerable. (Woke nice-sounding argument employed mostly by people who are scared shizless from this virus and need to hide their fear behind some nice-sounding nonsense)

Chivito550

kippy wrote: »

Why are you using Sweden as an example?
Sweden have many restrictions still in place and in place through out this.
There are no countries in the world that haven't put in place restrictions.

Restrictions and lockdown are two very different things. People seem to think lockdown saved 100k lives. Laughable.

bucketybuck

If I was getting advice from a friend about a serious problem, damn sure I would be extremely pissed to find out they were telling the whole pub what they were going to say to me later. NPHET most certainly needed to be put back in their box, a classic example of a group who got caught up in their self importance and forgot their actual place in things.

And anybody who thinks they didn't leak that letter is being ridiculously naive.

Vieira82

suicide_circus wrote: »

Has NPHET denied they leaked it?

Anyone at all admitted to any leaks over the last few months? Even more the last few years?