Have NPHET lost the attention of people?

DeanAustin

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

According to a poll on Newstalk, 67% of people think Leo was bang out of order for his public attack on the CMO and NHETP

Proves to me he was brave because he did something most people disagree with. But, personally, I think he was absolutely correct. If what he said is accurate then NPHET came with a half-baked plan and no thought as to what to do if it didn't work.

If my team came to me with a plan like that, I'd give them a kick in the hole. That the CMO and the rest of NPHET think it was okay to propose Level 5 without much thought beyond the next 4 weeks is beyond belief. That they think it's okay to come proposing Level 5 a few days after saying Level 3 wasn't necessary seriously calls into question their competence.

People criticise politicians for not talking straight. Leo did it last night. Hats off to him.

Jizique

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

According to a poll on Newstalk, 67% of people think Leo was bang out of order for his public attack on the CMO and NHETP

Very surprised at that, esp on Newstalk- wonder how many replies.
I didn’t think PBP and SF supporters would be up this early and definitely not listening to PK.

Xtrail14

Tony will have to spank Leo’s bottom for last night.

paw patrol

DeanAustin wrote: »

Fair enough. I disagree with you on Leo just being a PR man but I doubt either of us will change the other's opinion on it.

I think they were brave because if Level 3 restrictions go wrong and cases surge and deaths increase, Leo and Martin could have their careers ruined. They'll be slaughtered in the media and by the public.

I think he was also brave to criticise NPHET last night because politicians rarely do that. But the way he explained it, regardless of what happens from here on out, I think they made the right decision with the information they had to hand and he was right to explain that to the public even if it meant that NPHET's nose is put out of joint.

in case it got lost in my blurb. Although I'm against any lockdowns or levels


I should clarify - last night was a great decision by the government.

Topgear on Dave

Deleted User wrote: »

My sister and a lot of friends are big fans of lockdown as they are all retired, married to wealthy men, on pensions, own property and are very very comfortable. They are also not alone. They love lockdown! They would be appalled by Leo last night as they hang on every word of Tony Holohan, call him "Tony" at their coffee mornings, cried when they heard about his wife (which is very sad), but they are not Tony's friend so why cry?

A Newstalk survey is not an accurate assessment of anything.

+1 Lockdown is different for everybody.

I work in a multinational now and we have worked all the way through this but I was in pubs and hotels for years and Id be rightly f*cked if I was still at it.

DeanAustin

DeanAustin wrote: »

Fair enough. I disagree with you on Leo just being a PR man but I doubt either of us will change the other's opinion on it.

I think they were brave because if Level 3 restrictions go wrong and cases surge and deaths increase, Leo and Martin could have their careers ruined. They'll be slaughtered in the media and by the public.

I think he was also brave to criticise NPHET last night because politicians rarely do that. But the way he explained it, regardless of what happens from here on out, I think they made the right decision with the information they had to hand and he was right to explain that to the public even if it meant that NPHET's nose is put out of joint.

I agree. It was a brave decision. I think the public needed to see who was in charge, the Government or Tony Holohan, because believe me the die was cast the minute Holohan returned to work! He wanted to stamp his authority over everything but he is not running this country. He does NOT have his finger on the pulse of how this is effecting the public, his perception could well be skewed with a terminally ill wife.

Leo showed last night that he 100% has his finger on the pulse of public opinion and for that I salute him! I think that gave many of us a huge boost last night.
Most of us have felt over the last few months that we have completely lost our autonomy, our freedom, our ability to even see the people we love. We may still have those choices compromised but at least we feel Leo and the Government understand the effects this is having!

(I have lost my job due to Covid, my mother is in a nursing home, I've seen her once since March, my kids live abroad, I don't know what Christmas will be like for a lot of us this year)

Donald Trump

Xtrail14 wrote: »

Tony will have to spank Leo’s bottom for last night.

You have an interesting imagination......do you have a clear mental picture of it happening? :pac:

Dempo1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

None of them are the people who get up early to go to work. They are people on big salaries, own property , have big pensions or else get paid regardless of lockdowns, i.e. civil servants! Alternatively those who don't work anyway i.e. are on the dole, it makes no difference to many of them.

My sister and a lot of friends are big fans of lockdown as they are all retired, married to wealthy men, on pensions, own property and are very very comfortable. They are also not alone. They love lockdown! They would be appalled by Leo last night as they hang on every word of Tony Holohan, call him "Tony" at their coffee mornings, cried when they heard about his wife (which is very sad), but they are not Tony's friend so why cry?

A Newstalk survey is not an accurate assessment of anything.

I have to disagree, those listening are actually more likely to be on their way to work and most likely not on the big bucks and pensions described. Leo was completely out of line and not for the first time albeit this time, not hiding behind an anonymous tweet or quote. He's being leading the discredit NPHET charge for months, all the more galling is the fact he's a qualified Doctor (not at all sure I'd like his manner if I were a patient of his).

I recall it was he who had the initial easy lockdown decision to make and of course that's often forgotten. I supported him at the start, even emailed him to congratulate his management but my o my, how foolish I was and his behaviour since entering into this shambolic government has and continues to be disgraceful.

DeanAustin

Dempo1 wrote: »

I have to disagree, those listening are actually more likely to be on their way to work and most likely not on the big bucks and pensions described. Leo was completely out of line and not for the first time albeit this time, not hiding behind an anonymous tweet or quote. He's being leading the discredit NPHET charge for months, all the more galling is the fact he's a qualified Doctor (not at all sure I'd like his manner if I were a patient of his).

I recall it was he who had the initial easy lockdown decision to make and of course that's often forgotten. I supported him at the start, even emailed him to congratulate his management but my o my, how foolish I was and his behaviour since entering into this shambolic government has and continues to be disgraceful.

If NPHET were recommending no Level 3 on Thursday and Level 5 on Sunday, they discredited themselves.

If NPHET's decision making is so influenced by one man that their recommendation could swing so wildly in three days, they discredited themselves.

If NPHET leaked their intention to recommend Level 5 without consulting the government, they discredited themselves.

If NPHET didn't have a contingency plan on what to do if their recommendation didn't work after 4 weeks, they discredited themselves.

Dempo1

DeanAustin wrote: »

Proves to me he was brave because he did something most people disagree with. But, personally, I think he was absolutely correct. If what he said is accurate then NPHET came with a half-baked plan and no thought as to what to do if it didn't work.

If my team came to me with a plan like that, I'd give them a kick in the hole. That the CMO and the rest of NPHET think it was okay to propose Level 5 without much thought beyond the next 4 weeks is beyond belief. That they think it's okay to come proposing Level 5 a few days after saying Level 3 wasn't necessary seriously calls into question their competence.

People criticise politicians for not talking straight. Leo did it last night. Hats off to him.

Your assuming Leo actually confirming what was said is correct, I find it hard to believe the CMO and colleagues, particularly Professor Nolan had few answers, this guy is is well prepared. NPHET are are not tasked with dealing with political questions, that what we pay politicians to deal with, just because Leo has no answers doesn't mean NPHET are not doing their Job. Let's see in a few weeks when it goes pear shaped and Leo suddenly loses his tongue, a great man to pass the buck, his attempt at seeking hero status won't wash with me. Gosh it seems so long ago when the CMO was awarded the freedom of Dublin, how time and loyalties fly.....

DeanAustin

Dempo1 wrote: »

Your assuming Leo actually confirming what was said is correct, I find it hard to believe the CMO and colleagues, particularly Professor Nolan had few answers, this guy is is well prepared. NPHET are are not tasked with dealing with political questions, that what we pay politicians to deal with, just because Leo has no answers doesn't mean NPHET are not doing their Job. Let's see in a few weeks when it goes pear shaped and Leo suddenly loses his tongue, a great man to pass the buck, his attempt at seeking hero status won't wash with me. Gosh it seems so long ago when the CMO was awarded the freedom of Dublin, how time and loyalties fly.....

Let NPHET refute Leo's claims then.

That they went from a position that no Level 3 was required on Thursday to Level 5 being needed on Sunday seriously calls into question their competence. No government can base their decisions on advice that is that erratic.

Vieira82

bucketybuck wrote: »

Yes, you are. Very obviously so.

But go on, explain what was illogical about leaking the letter? Bearing in mind that doing such a thing would be pretty much page one of a political manipulation playbook.

Already did multiple times in this post. Feel free to go back and read. If you're so clever to figure out political plots I am sure you are an avid researcher and will find it no hassle at all to go look for those posts.

I'll wait for your point by point rebuke of it. Of course though it's easy to just brand someone something instead of actually have arguments of it. Remember though... when you point a finger at someone, there's three fingers pointing at you.

Andrewf20

McHardcore wrote: »

Why do you reason that the number of deaths will not follow the number of cases for the second wave like it did with the first wave?

On your Sweden point, I would imagine that they did have years that they had more excess deaths than they have now. Take the Spanish Flu or WWII. I'm not sure what point you are making here.

Because cases have been rising since July in alot of places but deaths haven't followed at a similar rate. I'd need to find the link but there was talk of up to 6 weeks of a lag between cases and deaths, I.e deaths would rise steeply up to 6 weeks after cases rose steeply but it doesn't appear to be playing out.

On the 100 years of data point, we had no lockdowns in previous bad years with high or higher death rates which calls into question if we are over reacting this time around, especially with the huge impact it is having on society which we haven't fully quantified yet. I had a look at the graph and found that years with death rates similar or higher than corona were actually quite frequent, perhaps one in every eight to ten years.

Dempo1

DeanAustin wrote: »

If NPHET were recommending no Level 3 on Thursday and Level 5 on Sunday, they discredited themselves.

If NPHET's decision making is so influenced by one man that their recommendation could swing so wildly in three days, they discredited themselves.

If NPHET leaked their intention to recommend Level 5 without consulting the government, they discredited themselves.

If NPHET didn't have a contingency plan on what to do if their recommendation didn't work after 4 weeks, they discredited themselves.

With all due respect there's a number of issues here.

Houlihan Arrived back Sunday, clearly saw a foreboding road ahead and asked questions.

Secondly this crisis is an evolving one and no one can deny the fugues over the weekend we're alarming. Indeed I would suggest NPHET and government were actually very subdued for over a week and with equally shocking numbers.

NPHET make public health decisions, not political and clearly government caught of gard, realising they've clearly failed.

Finally, I believe this all came to ahead re the shambolic HSE who've been desperately spinning a narrative at their bizzare press conferences over the past few weeks (I invite anyone to stomach looking at one and not feel nauseatised), Paul Reid claiming he wasn't consulted or advised on the level 5 is incomprehensible, there are a number of highly paid HSE staff on NPHET, simply say he or HSE were not aware is absolute B@LLOK.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

None of them are the people who get up early to go to work. They are people on big salaries, own property , have big pensions or else get paid regardless of lockdowns, i.e. civil servants! Alternatively those who don't work anyway i.e. are on the dole, it makes no difference to many of them.

My sister and a lot of friends are big fans of lockdown as they are all retired, married to wealthy men, on pensions, own property and are very very comfortable. They are also not living alone. They love lockdown! They would be appalled by Leo last night as they hang on every word of Tony Holohan, call him "Tony" at their coffee mornings, cried when they heard about his wife (which is very sad), but they are not Tony's friend so why cry?

A Newstalk survey is not an accurate assessment of anything.

Wow, it's impressive to be able to throw so much hatred at so many people.

We have an issue with people with good jobs, their own homes and pensions. Not a remarkably hard to obtain list really.

Civil servants don't get up in the morning and are rich in big houses. Interesting take. Not remotely accurate but do continue.

Valhallapt

Vieira82 wrote: »

Look at other countries daily updates, look at outher countries information. I wish you'd speak Portuguese and see the government updates over there.

Daily briefings explaining in detail how many outbreaks, where they are located, how many people recovered daily and the usual number of infected and number of hospitalizations...

Now on that note, Leo lied last night saying Portugal had a higher incidence of the virus, it is lower than Ireland as we are having around 700 cases daily now but our population is more than 10 million. This means if you have 500 cases in Ireland, a country with half that population it is way higher.

eu falo um pouco ;-) I used to live there, it’s just a more relaxed country in general, in Ireland we are hysterically addicted to daily case numbers.

Also I heard Leo say the opposite, that Portugal was one of the few countries with a lower insistence rate than Ireland

DeanAustin

Dempo1 wrote: »

With all due respect there's a number of issues here.

Houlihan Arrived back Sunday, clearly saw a foreboding road ahead and asked questions.

Secondly this crisis is an evolving one and no one can deny the fugues over the weekend we're alarming. Indeed I would suggest NPHET and government were actually very subdued for over a week and with equally shocking numbers.

NPHET make public health decisions, not political and clearly government caught of gard, realising they've clearly failed.

Finally, I believe this all came to ahead re the shambolic HSE who've been desperately spinning a narrative at their bizzare press conferences over the past few weeks (I invite anyone to stomach looking at one and not feel nauseatised), Paul Reid claiming he wasn't consulted or advised on the level 5 is incomprehensible, there are a number of highly paid HSE staff on NPHET, simply say he or HSE were not aware is absolute B@LLOK.

The situation did not deteriorate to such a degree between Thursday and Sunday that a movement of three levels was justified. Yet that's what was recommended. That means NPHET were either wrong on Thursday or wrong on Sunday. That's a problem.

NPHET's drastic change of recommendation coincided with Holohan's return to work. The only reasonable conclusion is that he drove the level 5 recommendation and holds such sway in NPHET that the rest of the group were behind it. It's unhealthy for one man to have such influence in an organisation.

NPHET has serious questions to answer.

Niner leprauchan

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Wow, it's impressive to be able to throw so much hatred at so many people.

We have an issue with people with good jobs, their own homes and pensions. Not a remarkably hard to obtain list really.

Civil servants don't get up in the morning and are rich in big houses. Interesting take. Not remotely accurate but do continue.

I don't hate them, they are my friends and my sister! Show me one place in my post there was "hatred"? Yes they might be retired and wealthy and most things we laugh about and agree on , but Covid has been divisive in surprising ways, especially when it comes to the comforts of money and a partner which insulates some of the hardships of doing this alone.
I was a civil servant too, temporary, but I lost my job recently, directly related to Covid. But permanent Civil servants remain paid regardless of whether there is work or not, which is great for them. That security of full pay also insulates you against the hardship of lockdown and job loss, makes it easier to sit back and applaud NPHET regardless.

No hate.......... just a difference of opinion, especially when it comes to being a member of the Tony Holohan fan club. People will always have different opinions.

Dempo1

DeanAustin wrote: »

Let NPHET refute Leo's claims then.

That they went from a position that no Level 3 was required on Thursday to Level 5 being needed on Sunday seriously calls into question their competence. No government can base their decisions on advice that is that erratic.

I will and the next press conference (if the CMO hasn't resigned) will be interesting. As I've explained, the CMO came back Sunday, is anyone Aware how shocking the numbers were from Thursday to Sunday? This crisis has been an evolving one since day one, I'm not at all surprised of a reaction on Sunday, OK, I accept level 5 a serious move but there's little or no difference between 4&5 and actually, it's becoming clear this level system is a farce. Tomorrow level 3 will see potentially 180k people going back on PUP.

Andrewf20

Noam chomsky talks a bit about how the media can be used to influence the masses. Adam Curtis did a BBC documentary in 2004 which touches on this also called the power of nightmares. They showed how the media completely fabricated ideas like terrrorists making a 'dirty bomb' (a chemical bomb) even though they can't be actually made. Milgrams experiments showed how we can be heavily influenced by authority as well.

I just get this feeling that a combination of these elements (and group think perhaps) have formed a way of thinking in the public that has gotten us to this state of overreaction compared to previous years. I think the response in march this year was appropriate but not so much now.

carq

Dempo1 wrote: »

I will and the next press conference (if the CMO hasn't resigned) will be interesting. As I've explained, the CMO came back Sunday, is anyone Aware how shocking the numbers were from Thursday to Sunday? This crisis has been an evolving one since day one, I'm not at all surprised of a reaction on Sunday, OK, I accept level 5 a serious move but there's little or no difference between 4&5 and actually, it's becoming clear this level system is a farce. Tomorrow level 3 will see potentially 180k people going back on PUP.

True- the jump from level 2->3 is massive and has the biggest impact .
From 3-5 the differences are minimal.

Effectively every pub and restaurant are shut again.
Hotels may as well shut.

I had a 3 day break planned 1 county over in 2 weeks time - availing of the Govts own scheme.
Now i either have to cancel or break county lockdown rules.

gary550

Dempo1 wrote: »

I will and the next press conference (if the CMO hasn't resigned) will be interesting. As I've explained, the CMO came back Sunday, is anyone Aware how shocking the numbers were from Thursday to Sunday? This crisis has been an evolving one since day one, I'm not at all surprised of a reaction on Sunday, OK, I accept level 5 a serious move but there's little or no difference between 4&5 and actually, it's becoming clear this level system is a farce. Tomorrow level 3 will see potentially 180k people going back on PUP.

Reporting the number of cases without reporting the number of tests carried out is absolutely baseless and serves to do nothing other than scare people.

Andrewf20

DeanAustin wrote: »

The situation did not deteriorate to such a degree between Thursday and Sunday that a movement of three levels was justified. Yet that's what was recommended. That means NPHET were either wrong on Thursday or wrong on Sunday. That's a problem.

NPHET's drastic change of recommendation coincided with Holohan's return to work. The only reasonable conclusion is that he drove the level 5 recommendation and holds such sway in NPHET that the rest of the group were behind it. It's unhealthy for one man to have such influence in an organisation.

NPHET has serious questions to answer.

It's a known flaw in human psychology whereby group meetings result in a group think mentality. I.e. The group go along with orders or the opinion of the leader. It doesn't always happen but it can happen. It has been well studied. They even did experiments which showed that people can frequently sit back in meetings even though they know the wrong decisions are getting made.

ThunbergsAreGo

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

According to a poll on Newstalk, 67% of people think Leo was bang out of order for his public attack on the CMO and NHETP

Sometimes it feels like me and the vast majority of people I know and talk to are very very very different from the general population

meeeeh

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Wow, it's impressive to be able to throw so much hatred at so many people.

We have an issue with people with good jobs, their own homes and pensions. Not a remarkably hard to obtain list really.

Civil servants don't get up in the morning and are rich in big houses. Interesting take. Not remotely accurate but do continue.

It's accurate in it's fundamentals that Covid affected people very differently. I bet attitude to level 5 would be a lot different if for example the salaries and pensions of people whose income is not affected would be taxed extra to finance supports for people whose jobs would be gone or severely affected.

I'm not suggesting that solution but a publican who has to pay rent or mortgage for their pub will feel a lot differently than a public servant who has to work from home on full pay.

Captain_Crash

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Sometimes it feels like me and the vast majority of people I know and talk to are very very very different from the general population

All these polls only capture the demographic of people listening/reading/watching. Kenny's show is listened to mostly by homeowners above mid40's into the 60 or 70 age range. So naturally it will be skewered to favour NPHET and restrictions etc.

Teen Weekly could do the same poll and have the opposite result. I don't know if that's a real publication but I'm afraid to google it..... on the work laptop anyway :P

DeanAustin

Andrewf20 wrote: »

It's a known flaw in human psychology whereby group meetings result in a group think mentality. I.e. The group go along with orders or the opinion of the leader. It doesn't always happen but it can happen. It has been well studied. They even did experiments which showed that people can frequently sit back in meetings even though they know the wrong decisions are getting made.

I agree with you (oh the irony) but this group are making decisions that are massively impacting the people of this country and our management of a once in a century pandemic. There should be mechanisms in place to ensure the groupthink effect is minimised. That clearly isn’t happening.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't hate them, they are my friends and my sister! Show me one place in my post there was "hatred"? Yes they might be retired and wealthy and most things we laugh about and agree on , but Covid has been divisive in surprising ways, especially when it comes to the comforts of money and a partner which insulates some of the hardships of doing this alone.
I was a civil servant too, temporary, but I lost my job recently, directly related to Covid. But permanent Civil servants remain paid regardless of whether there is work or not, which is great for them. That security of full pay also insulates you against the hardship of lockdown and job loss, makes it easier to sit back and applaud NPHET regardless.

No hate.......... just a difference of opinion, especially when it comes to being a member of the Tony Holohan fan club. People will always have different opinions.

Your hate comes across. Or if hate isn't the right word, jealousy, bitterness, resentment. Take your pick.

Because they have better jobs, or bigger houses or a pension, something the entire population gets.

So you were a temporary civil servant, did you get a temporary large house and a temporary lie on every morning? That is afterall, the comment you made.

Job security? 350 a week cash in hand and an actual lie on in the morning. Many a civil servant working 40 hours to take that home after going to work bright and early.

suicide_circus

carq wrote: »

True- the jump from level 2->3 is massive and has the biggest impact .
From 3-5 the differences are minimal.

Well at level 3 all retailers can open, at level 4 only essential retailers can open - all clothes, electronics, homewares, DIY, bookshops etc have to close - that's a f*ck lot of people on the dole.

Elmer Blooker

Andrewf20 wrote: »

Approx 140,000 excess deaths were recorded in Europe in the 2017/18 winter season from respiratory illness for example. The reality is that elderly loved ones have an increased risk of death in every winter they pass through.

That was the dreadful 'Aussie flu'. I got it bad, my daughter got it even worse, friends, family all got it. When you got it you knew you had it!
I can't remember hearing the words 'cases' and 'asymptomatic' then.