Have NPHET lost the attention of people?

Nobotty

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

According to a poll on Newstalk, 67% of people think Leo was bang out of order for his public attack on the CMO and NHETP

A lot of activists and nonchalants reply to those
They're a snapshot of something but I'm not sure what

meeeeh

meeeeh wrote: »

It's accurate in it's fundamentals that Covid affected people very differently. I bet attitude to level 5 would be a lot different if for example the salaries and pensions of people whose income is not affected would be taxed extra to finance supports for people whose jobs would be gone or severely affected.

I'm not suggesting that solution but a publican who has to pay rent or mortgage for their pub will feel a lot differently than a public servant who has to work from home on full pay.

They will be taxed extra. If you think otherwise, your dreaming.

Civil servants despite job security, pay more into the social system than the publican you speak of. They generally make a lot less.

I do agree with the opinions that level 5 shouldn't be brought back and yes, the pubs have been very badly played in an of this but you cannot seriously suggest that the comment was not soaked in bitterness and inaccurate portraying of a large group of people that are simple getting up, going to work and paying bills.

I'm unsure also why working from home had become a stuck to beat with, when it's just private sector that have taken this option.

Kylta

I wonder if the covid doesn't go through the roof in a months time will Holohan resign.
If it does then hopefully varadkar will commit hari kari outside the dail, while the rest of the government resigns their positions. I personally don't think many people are heeding what the government are saying, so for some the parties will still continue.

suicide_circus

Do we think that if there were a different government, SF lead for example, compliance to guidelines would be higher?

McHardcore

IAmTheReign wrote: »

We don't know that for sure though, and we won't until the end of the year. Figures from August by the CSO showed that excess deaths YTD are only about half the number of deaths attributed to COVID

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0828/1161895-excess-mortality-figures/

Sorry, I should have said "excess deaths this year to date". I agree, the actual number of excess deaths this year will be lower than the number of Covid reported deaths. This is due to covid being listed on their death cert even though the person might have succumbed from something else.
However, this does not mean that there has not been a excess number of deaths due to covid. The Health Information and Quality Authority have reported an excess number of over 1k deaths already and the CSO have reported 850 - 900 (from your own link) and we are only after the first peak. We could get a smaller number of people of dying from other diseses later on in the year because they would have already have died from the virus. However, this does this mean that there will not be an excess number of deaths.

Logically, you cannot introduce an additional deadly disease into a society and expect that the excess deaths to reduce, or even stay the same from previous. That doesn't make sense.

karlitob

agoodpunt wrote: »

We have had many scandals in our HSE over the years cover ups people on trollies we have thrown the kitchen sink at it it needs reform and now might be a chance they can hardly strike and no public backing.
There are some good hard working people there for sure but the unions are so intrenched the have the power to bring down a govt.
I am glad these egoistical clown have been found and out i hope the govt got it right

RTE are staging a show most evening now sick of there bleedin faces especially "Lee" now I have stopped looking
We all need to where masks especially going into winter and need signs of hope not constant doom.
I am sorry for those effected

What are you on about / scandals and the hse. This is a forum on nphet and their decision making.

karlitob

karlitob wrote: »

This argument is an old one.

- they’ve a much bigger population and have greater economies of scale

Can only explain so much.

- they introduced free health and social from cradle to grave. We don’t have that policy in ireland.

Tautology.

- they pay for it in taxes. We don’t.

Where is Government spending funded from then?

- they’ve invested in infrastructure over decades. We didn’t.

How does that affect medicine cost or dispensing costs?

- that per capita spend includes private healthcare at about 25% I think which means that although we spend that money is not equally distributed.

I'm only talking about government spending.

- because of the absence in investment for decades we now have a higher annual spend.

Doesn't explain it all

- nhs is not all it’s cracked up to be. Pockets of brilliance and pockets of ****e. Just like here.

#
Not being out 120 quid with a chest infection, knowing exactly what's wrong with me and what I need would be great.

The comparable service is nhs Scotland - twice the number of beds for the same population - but they don’t have twice the patient outcomes. We do very well.

OK, let's look at NHS Scotland.
Budget: £15.3billion. ~£2,800 per capita.
All medications paid for. All GP visits covered. Dentist covered. 0 out of pocket expenses day-to-day.
Irish State:
Budget: €18.3billion ~€3,700 per capita.
No medication paid for. No GP visits covered. Full out of pocket expenses.

crossman47

suicide_circus wrote: »

Ah come on now, the leaked letter on something so important was shambolic - totally unprofessional - and undermined their position. It's not NPHET's role to circumvent the government's decision making process.

If it was leaked by NPHET

karlitob

meeeeh wrote: »

It's accurate in it's fundamentals that Covid affected people very differently. I bet attitude to level 5 would be a lot different if for example the salaries and pensions of people whose income is not affected would be taxed extra to finance supports for people whose jobs would be gone or severely affected.

I'm not suggesting that solution but a publican who has to pay rent or mortgage for their pub will feel a lot differently than a public servant who has to work from home on full pay.

Well that’s obvious.

And clearly someone who’s motivation is profit will make decisions based on profit - their own profit. That’s not a slight against business people - but clearly everyone has biases in how they make decisions.

No one has yet put forward any suggestions on how the process of advice-giving (rather than decision making) could be done.

meeeeh

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

They will be taxed extra. If you think otherwise, your dreaming.

Civil servants despite job security, pay more into the social system than the publican you speak of. They generally make a lot less.

I do agree with the opinions that level 5 shouldn't be brought back and yes, the pubs have been very badly played in an of this but you cannot seriously suggest that the comment was not soaked in bitterness and inaccurate portraying of a large group of people that are simple getting up, going to work and paying bills.

I'm unsure also why working from home had become a stuck to beat with, when it's just private sector that have taken this option.

It's not a stick to beat people with. Those who had to work with couple of young kids often didn't have it easy. It's a comparison how different people were affected. Some of us would have to work from home some will not have work.

I'm not going into how much people pay into the social system. We run our business (not hospitality) we know how much we have to pay in taxes income or other. If you think publicans have it easy try to run a pub or some other business. You'd be surprised how much tax you pay.

meeeeh

karlitob wrote: »

Well that’s obvious.

And clearly someone who’s motivation is profit will make decisions based on profit - their own profit. That’s not a slight against business people - but clearly everyone has biases in how they make decisions.

No one has yet put forward any suggestions on how the process of advice-giving (rather than decision making) could be done.

You never see advisors in finance for example leaking what advice they gave to minister before budget. So clearly some parts of public service manage it and I really don't know why Nphet should be different.

bucketybuck

Vieira82 wrote: »

Already did multiple times in this post. Feel free to go back and read. If you're so clever to figure out political plots I am sure you are an avid researcher and will find it no hassle at all to go look for those posts.

I'll wait for your point by point rebuke of it. Of course though it's easy to just brand someone something instead of actually have arguments of it. Remember though... when you point a finger at someone, there's three fingers pointing at you.

In other words, you have nothing.

"Go back and find it yourself", those are the words of somebody without the courage of their convictions. In this post you said these words:

Vieira82 wrote: »

It was them for sure despite them leaking the letter being completely illogical

That is hopelessly naive but when I give you the chance to explain why it would have been illogical you don't want to do it, you'd rather trot out some inane digs.

Fair enough, I started by thinking you naive and I'm happy to continue doing so. Its no skin off my nose.

Topgear on Dave

Nobotty wrote: »

A lot of activists and nonchalants reply to those
They're a snapshot of something but I'm not sure what

It sure wasn't the hotel manager who was just on rte radio 1. He has 167 staff to let go (yet again) when the hotel closes.

givyjoe

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Your hate comes across. Or if hate isn't the right word, jealousy, bitterness, resentment. Take your pick.

Because they have better jobs, or bigger houses or a pension, something the entire population gets.

So you were a temporary civil servant, did you get a temporary large house and a temporary lie on every morning? That is afterall, the comment you made.

Job security? 350 a week cash in hand and an actual lie on in the morning. Many a civil servant working 40 hours to take that home after going to work bright and early.

Oh give over. It's a perfectly reasonable point to make. Very easy to agree with lockdown measures, if they do not significantly impact upon your life bar minor inconveniences. The same people would quite obviously not be so agreeable if they were losing their job, unable to pay their mortgage etc.

mohawk

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

It sure wasn't the hotel manager who was just on rte radio 1. He has 167 staff to let go (yet again) when the hotel closes.

At this stage it’s very likely that many of these business will never reopen. I really feel for all the staff that are being let go yet again today. Couple of local pubs do great food near us and they did take away service last time they were closed. I will make it my business to support them if they do the same again.

TBH this is controversial but I would prefer to see pubs and restaurants left open and closing off licenses. It would curb the house parties big time.

Loafing Oaf

mohawk wrote: »

and closing off licenses. It would curb the house parties big time.

Presumably you would be stopping the sale of alcohol from supermarkets etc. too? Very big move, would hit a lot of businesses hard...

Jizique

Andrewf20 wrote: »

It's a known flaw in human psychology whereby group meetings result in a group think mentality. I.e. The group go along with orders or the opinion of the leader. It doesn't always happen but it can happen. It has been well studied. They even did experiments which showed that people can frequently sit back in meetings even though they know the wrong decisions are getting made.

Uno Duce etc

Jizique

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Presumably you would be stopping the sale of alcohol from supermarkets etc. too? Very big move, would hit a lot of businesses hard...

Multinationals like Carlsberg, Diageo, Heineken; my heart bleeds

mohawk

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Presumably you would be stopping the sale of alcohol from supermarkets etc. too? Very big move, would hit a lot of businesses hard...

Right now we are hitting pubs, restaurants and hotels again and putting thousands of employees back into unemployment. Supermarkets and shops would surely manage without sales of wine and beer given they haven’t felt the same hit that other sectors have had. It’s never going to happen though.

Bass Reeves

Yyhhuuu wrote: »

I presume nephet calculated based on their mathematical formulae that unless level 5 was adopted the hospitals would be overrun. I hope this doesnt transpire as the Virus appears to cause less hospitalisation and deaths than occurred in 1st wave.

The main difference between this and last time is we have more testing not enough but definitely more. What this means we are testing earlier and faster so we are coming across a much higher number of confirmed cases.

There is a time lag between deaths and cases. In March as we have limited testing we probably only came access a fraction of the cases. In general people who were healthy and did not require hospitalisation were not tested.

Another big factor is we have locked down nursing homes earlier. As well hopefully older people have started to cocoon again.

It a matter now of personal responsibility, reducing your contacts and getting the numbers back down

crossman47

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Another big factor is we have locked down nursing homes earlier. As well hopefully older people have started to cocoon again.

Locking down nursing homes won't do any good unless the staff have been trained, wear PPE properly and don't go to work if they have symptoms or have been in contact with a suspected case. Staff going to a number of different homes were the main factor last time.

mean gene

suicide_circus wrote: »

Do we think that if there were a different government, SF lead for example, compliance to guidelines would be higher?

no because SF are sh1t

irishblessing

mean gene wrote: »

no because SF are sh1t

Why do you say that? When have they had a fair chance to prove themselves? Mary Lou seems fairly with it. Reminds me of an Irish version of Bernie Sanders, lol.

mean gene

irishblessing wrote: »

Why do you say that? When have they had a fair chance to prove themselves? Mary Lou seems fairly with it. Reminds me of an Irish version of Bernie Sanders, lol.

why do i say that -because they sit on the fence the whole time that sf guy that was on with claire byrne last night was appalling -they attack nphet fg ff without having an alternative view

irishblessing

mean gene wrote: »

why do i say that -because they sit on the fence the whole time that sf guy that was on with claire byrne last night was appalling -they attack nphet fg ff without having an alternative view

I didn't see that "SF guy" so can't speak to that. They all 'attack' each other though. And one's view is their view so why would you have an alternative one? They'd only be accused of being wishy-washy then.

meeeeh

mean gene wrote: »

why do i say that -because they sit on the fence the whole time that sf guy that was on with claire byrne last night was appalling -they attack nphet fg ff without having an alternative view

Yes that was pure opportunism. Don't commit to nphet suggestion because it was clearly unpopular but don't give your own suggestion because that would be risky if it doesn't go your way. Not to mention they are not even close to implementing level 5 restrictions in Northern Ireland where infection rate is a lot higher. I wonder if they claim they have no data there too.

I prefer politicians who are prepared risk stating their opinion than just looking how to win votes. (not that I'd want them in power anyway).

Bass Reeves

crossman47 wrote: »

Locking down nursing homes won't do any good unless the staff have been trained, wear PPE properly and don't go to work if they have symptoms or have been in contact with a suspected case. Staff going to a number of different homes were the main factor last time.

You have to expect that lessons are learned from last time. You have to expect that NH managers have sorted all this with the help of the HSE.

It back to responsibility and management. It's not the government's job to micro manage the who country from NH's to colleges to pubs. It up to every business to protect itself

Patrick2010

Total fence sitting from Sinn Fein last night. Wouldn't say if he wanted level 3 or 5, didn't have all the data. Kept going on about a plan. At least Boyd Barrett and Jim O Callaghan expressed an opinion.

meeeeh

Bass Reeves wrote: »

You have to expect that lessons are learned from last time. You have to expect that NH managers have sorted all this with the help of the HSE.

It back to responsibility and management. It's not the government's job to micro manage the who country from NH's to colleges to pubs. It up to every business to protect itself

It's up to government to supervise. It's not comparable to pubs. NH are caring for vulnerable people who often can't voice their worries and complaints. They might be private but they are part of public health and state has to have tight oversight.

Patrick2010

mohawk wrote: »

At this stage it’s very likely that many of these business will never reopen. I really feel for all the staff that are being let go yet again today. Couple of local pubs do great food near us and they did take away service last time they were closed. I will make it my business to support them if they do the same again.

TBH this is controversial but I would prefer to see pubs and restaurants left open and closing off licenses. It would curb the house parties big time.

I'm fed up with all the blame on house parties for the recent rise in cases, you'd swear Ireland was party central.
Cases went down after April when the schools were closed . Cases are up a few weeks after they re-opened, whats the common connection here?