Have NPHET lost the attention of people?

bladespin

Patrick2010 wrote: »

I'm fed up with all the blame on house parties for the recent rise in cases, you'd swear Ireland was party central.
Cases went down after April when the schools were closed . Cases are up a few weeks after they re-opened, whats the common connection here?

Shhhh, can't say that, even though there is a direct correlation.

Bass Reeves

meeeeh wrote: »

It's up to government to supervise. It's not comparable to pubs. NH are caring for vulnerable people who often can't voice their worries and complaints. They might be private but they are part of public health and state has to have tight oversight.

They have oversight as you put it. However it not government's job to micro manage any section of society or business. I am sure they had been guidelines and advice issued. It up to NH managers to heed that advice.

Should Stephen Donnelly personally check with every NH manager to see if they are following guidelines. That would be too big an ask. Maybe Michael Martin should delegate Leo to check Dublin NH's, Simon Harris Leinster ones, Niall Collins the Munster ones and mcConnoque the Connaught /Ulster ones.

Government can be pulled up on it political decisions but expecting it to micro manage every industry is a bit daft

meeeeh

meeeeh wrote: »

It's not a stick to beat people with. Those who had to work with couple of young kids often didn't have it easy. It's a comparison how different people were affected. Some of us would have to work from home some will not have work.

I'm not going into how much people pay into the social system. We run our business (not hospitality) we know how much we have to pay in taxes income or other. If you think publicans have it easy try to run a pub or some other business. You'd be surprised how much tax you pay.

I did, I know how income tax works. You do not pay more overall tax as a percentage of income than a public sector worker. And again, I'm only commenting in reply to the off the wall ****e that was posted by the other user regarding civil servants.

As for pubs. Can you quote where I suggested they have it easy? I can quote where I said the opposite.

None of this changes the comments I was referring to being widely off the mark and reeking of bull****.

irishblessing

irishblessing wrote: »

Why do you say that? When have they had a fair chance to prove themselves? Mary Lou seems fairly with it. Reminds me of an Irish version of Bernie Sanders, lol.

Northern Ireland. They haven't solved anything up there

paw patrol

mohawk wrote: »

TBH this is controversial but I would prefer to see pubs and restaurants left open and closing off licenses. It would curb the house parties big time.

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Presumably you would be stopping the sale of alcohol from supermarkets etc. too? Very big move, would hit a lot of businesses hard...

the government arent THAT stupid - a large cohort of the population are bored and frustrated take away the booze and it would be a nightmare to manage.
Only so much a takeaway and netflix gets you...


no withstanding they have no control over newry etc...

givyjoe

givyjoe wrote: »

Oh give over. It's a perfectly reasonable point to make. Very easy to agree with lockdown measures, if they do not significantly impact upon your life bar minor inconveniences. The same people would quite obviously not be so agreeable if they were losing their job, unable to pay their mortgage etc.

Who has lost their homes? Mortgages were on hold, evictions banned.

Welfare has kicked in and only 10% of the population are on pup payments. The rest are still working, still getting paid.

You have no idea how much covid has effected my life. No idea. Probable more than most and not once have I stated if I agree or not.

Here's a crazy idea, how about you and the rest stop making presumptions, stop making up realities about a large group of workers and stick the reality and what people actually said.

mohawk

Patrick2010 wrote: »

I'm fed up with all the blame on house parties for the recent rise in cases, you'd swear Ireland was party central.
Cases went down after April when the schools were closed . Cases are up a few weeks after they re-opened, whats the common connection here?

I am not about blaming house parties, but I am thinking more about priorities.
As a society what is more important for us? What restrictions can we have that work but also least impact the economy and people’s mental health.

For me children need school. Should secondary school move to a hybrid model of online and in person or go totally online. It’s definitely a discussion worth having. Also we need to remember children with special educational needs.

mohawk

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Who has lost their homes? Mortgages were on hold, evictions banned.

Welfare has kicked in and only 10% of the population are on pup payments. The rest are still working, still getting paid.

I think the hold on mortgages is gone now. Not sure about evictions. After today the numbers on PUP will go back up again.

Vieira82

Patrick2010 wrote: »

I'm fed up with all the blame on house parties for the recent rise in cases, you'd swear Ireland was party central.
Cases went down after April when the schools were closed . Cases are up a few weeks after they re-opened, whats the common connection here?

Agree with you 500% the rise in cases is because schools are open. Look around Europe cases only started going up after schools re-open. Kids do transmit the virus but are mostly assymptomatic and the odd chance one gets symptoms then a cluster is discovered.

We've been having reports of house parties since June, true they may have lead to a few clusters, but not a systematic openning of institutions where individuals gather.

And the worse of it all, the kids are barely to blame for wanting to be kids, it's the "supposed" adults in gov. to push for re-openning with very flimsy rules...

And again it's like this all around Europe...

Ginger n Lemon

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Well M Martin made a decision today to only let 18,000 people for every 1 person increase in ICU with positive PCR test since 15 September go on PUP.

If he was following the advice, that figure couldve been 30,000, to 40,000.

Thank god we did not listen to experts advice for once.

You don't get it, ya wee goose. We are going to be in level 5 in two - four weeks. Pay attention to what they are not saying. NPHET won, you lost. Just accept i. ;););):pac::pac::pac::pac:

Yyhhuuu

patnor1011 wrote: »

That was indeed a rant. With a healthy dose of entitlement. If you feel vulnerable why on earth you insist on going out expecting everyone else will cater for you?

What entitlement are you referring to. I was simply expecting people to adhere to social distancing in the streets, its ridiculous to refer this expectation as an "entitlement". I have time and time again witnessed non compliance with social distancing in the city I live. You're nothing but a troll. I'm adhering to to the social distancing and other covid guidelines. You appear to criticize this. If everybody adheres to the guidelines the numbers would go way down. I dont consider myself vulnerable and clinically in not but remember covid can be an indiscriminate killer. Furthermore just because I express my concern about non compliance doesnt give you the right to tell me to stay at home if I feel unsafe. Surely you're not condoning non compliance.

bladespin

Vieira82 wrote: »

Agree with you 500% the rise in cases is because schools are open. Look around Europe cases only started going up after schools re-open. Kids do transmit the virus but are mostly assymptomatic and the odd chance one gets symptoms then a cluster is discovered.

We've been having reports of house parties since June, true they may have lead to a few clusters, but not a systematic openning of institutions where individuals gather.

And the worse of it all, the kids are barely to blame for wanting to be kids, it's the "supposed" adults in gov. to push for re-openning with very flimsy rules...

And again it's like this all around Europe...

The main issue isn't the numbers (they were always going to go up as we opened up), the issue is the nursing homes, that's what prompted the Level 5 decree, but again we're back to peeking from behind the curtains, blaming the kids etc.

Reality is they had one job to do - protect the elderly and vulnerable, and guess what???? They being the government and in particular the HSE, Not NPHET.

Vieira82

So just had a light bulb over my head moment about this whole NPHET "leak" or not. Why it doesn't make sense for the NPHET to leak the letter but it does makes sense someone in gov. did it.

So the NPHET sends the recommendation to gov. after the meeting on Sunday, now they wouldn't have any reason at all to leak it to the press at this stage.

On the gov. side though they have all the interest on leaking it. Let me explain why. They leak the letter, NPHET is automatically to blame for scaremongering. So the gov. then comes out as the saviors of the Irish Nation. We will not hear NPHET they are being doomsayers though we think an appropriate rise to level 3 makes sense.

Now imagine there was no leak on Sunday and you get mid afternoon yesterday the government saying that the whole country should be on level 3? Then suddenly everyone would be up in arms against the government for raising it to level 3 in counties with few cases. By leaking the letter, proverbially turning NPHET into a pariah and prophets of doom, then suddenly level 3 nationwide doesn't sound very bad.

So when would a leak from NPHET make sense?

Today after level 3 is announced. Basically after the gov ignores the NPHET recommendation then Tom and co. would come out and say "hey we warned the gov. last Sunday to go level 5 and the gov ignored us.. This would be NPHET going Pontius Pilate and washing their hands of responsibility. By inverting this, the gov essentially turned the gun on them instead of being the victim of their washing of hands.

Ginger n Lemon

Deleted User wrote: »

You don't get it, ya wee goose. We are going to be in level 5 in two - four weeks. Pay attention to what they are not saying. NPHET won, you lost. Just accept i. ;););):pac::pac::pac::pac:

Awww you must be fuming since yesterday?

Is your hospital stocked up on PPE?

You are in cuckoo land if you think we have finances to go to level 4. As evident yesterday.

PS many deaths? Dont answer. I know, on average less than 1 death a day since 1 Aug. :rolleyes:

Goose

Vieira82

bladespin wrote: »

The main issue isn't the numbers (they were always going to go up as we opened up), the issue is the nursing homes, that's what prompted the Level 5 decree, but again we're back to peeking from behind the curtains, blaming the kids etc.

Reality is they had one job to do - protect the elderly and vulnerable, and guess what???? They being the government and in particular the HSE, Not NPHET.

and again I whole heartedly agree. There should have been ways to get kids an education and protect the vulnerable at the same time.

Hoboo

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Awww you must be fuming since yesterday?

Is your hospital stocked up on PPE?

You are in cuckoo land if you think we have finances to go to level 4. As evident yesterday.

PS many deaths? Dont answer. I know, on average less than 1 death a day since 1 Aug. :rolleyes:

Goose

From what Leo said last night on Prime Time, jumping to level 5 overnight would be disasterous socially and economically......while with the same breath suggesting we try something that hasn't been tried in Europe yet..... full out stay at home, shut every thing lockdown.

We've done that I thought, so he's talking level 6,. whatever that entails.

Ginger n Lemon

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Awww you must be fuming since yesterday?

Is your hospital stocked up on PPE?

You are in cuckoo land if you think we have finances to go to level 4. As evident yesterday.

PS many deaths? Dont answer. I know, on average less than 1 death a day since 1 Aug. :rolleyes:

Goose

I was never in support of level 5 lockdown. Just stating what is going to happen. I've personal reasons for not wanting level 5 to happen PPE situation is good. Hasn't been an issue for a while.

Finances are pretty good as far as I can see. They went ahead with the 2% public sector pay rise. This wouldn't have happened if they couldn't afford to go to level 5. Hopefully we will get out of level 5 in the new year.

Also, what evidence do you have that we can't afford a level 4? What I feel that you meant to say was your opinion. You are full of opinions and misguided/ corrupted statistics.

What's good for the goose is great for the gander.

Ginger n Lemon

Deleted User wrote: »

I was never in support of level 5 lockdown. Just stating what is going to happen. I've personal reasons for not wanting level 5 to happen PPE situation is good. Hasn't been an issue for a while.

Finances are pretty good as far as I can see. They went ahead with the 2% public sector pay rise. This wouldn't have happened if they couldn't afford to go to level 5. Hopefully we will get out of level 5 in the new year.

Also, what evidence do you have that we can't afford a level 4? What I feel that you meant to say was your opinion. You are full of opinions and misguided/ corrupted statistics.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

I dont know why but something tells me that double digit unemployment doesnt allow for great public finances. Current 1 in 6 unemployed. After yesterdays announcement that may move us closer to 1 in 5.

PS why would we go to level 5 if average daily deaths with positive PCR test are less than 1 person for over 2 months?

Ginger n Lemon

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

I dont know why but something tells me that double digit unemployment doesnt allow for great public finances. Current 1 in 6 unemployed. After yesterdays announcement that may move us closer to 1 in 5.

PS why would we go to level 5 if average daily deaths with positive PCR test are less than 1 person for over 2 months?

I suppose you haven't heard of exponential growth...

What you are lacking is foresight and that may be caused by your reactionary attitude.

John O.Groats

Deleted User wrote: »

I suppose you haven't heard of exponential growth...

Well seeing as he has never heard of personal responsibility you could well be correct about that too.

IAmTheReign

McHardcore wrote: »

Sorry, I should have said "excess deaths this year to date". I agree, the actual number of excess deaths this year will be lower than the number of Covid reported deaths. This is due to covid being listed on their death cert even though the person might have succumbed from something else.
However, this does not mean that there has not been a excess number of deaths due to covid. The Health Information and Quality Authority have reported an excess number of over 1k deaths already and the CSO have reported 850 - 900 (from your own link) and we are only after the first peak. We could get a smaller number of people of dying from other diseses later on in the year because they would have already have died from the virus. However, this does this mean that there will not be an excess number of deaths.

Logically, you cannot introduce an additional deadly disease into a society and expect that the excess deaths to reduce, or even stay the same from previous. That doesn't make sense.

The reason the number of excess deaths is lower than the number of COVID related deaths isn't because they succumbed to something else, it's because the people dying from COVID were statistically likely to die sometime this year anyway. It's entirely possible that a disease that overwhelmingly targets the elderly and those with significant underlying health problems would not lead to a significant increase in excess deaths by the end of the year. Someone in their 80s with a serious heart condition is unfortunately not long for this earth. This was a fact before COVID and will continue to be a fact long after COVID.

The point is COVID is not a deadly disease for the vast majority of the population. Indeed the number of deaths in July was below what was predicted had COVID not been a factor, and due to the low number of COVID related deaths in August and September there's no reason to think this won't be repeated for these months.

CSO said the reduction has come about because less people died from all causes during July than would have been expected in the absence of the pandemic.

Ginger n Lemon

Deleted User wrote: »

I suppose you haven't heard of exponential growth...

Of cases? Absolutely.

But when most common symptom that positive PCR tested people share is that they are perfectly healthy, its difficult to imagine stay at home order with level 6 your colleague McConkey is proposing going ahead.

But listen, its a dazzling display from you today (;)) just use common sense, Level 5 recommended - didnt even go to level 4. Its quite obvious govt bases decisions now on either deaths (of which there are less than 1 on average per day for over 2 months) or public finances (10bn deficit already, coming up to busiest retail period, cant afford another stay home and clap for HSE workers exercise)

You didnt answer - does your hospital have enuff masks? You wont be giving barbers a stink eye for hoarding masks this winter will you?

Vieira82

bucketybuck wrote: »

In other words, you have nothing.

"Go back and find it yourself", those are the words of somebody without the courage of their convictions. In this post you said these words:

That is hopelessly naive but when I give you the chance to explain why it would have been illogical you don't want to do it, you'd rather trot out some inane digs.

Fair enough, I started by thinking you naive and I'm happy to continue doing so. Its no skin off my nose.

Hey mate, asking you to go back and read the previous posts is far from having nothing. Is asking you to actually do some research which you obviously do not care on doing at a basic level. But here's something easier, check my latest post on it i changed my mind and it's easier for you to stop being lazy and look for it

St.Spodo

By far the most effective political messaging to date was the call to flatten the curve. It was simple to understand, gave people a goal to aim for and therefore a will to overcome attrition in the short term. I think it's going to be hard for our leaders to engender the will among the general public to spend most of the next 6 months in level 3, but we are here because the decision was made to 'live with the virus' over the summer. My hunch is that at some point we are going to have to change course, and to try to eliminate community transmission on the island of Ireland. This is a positive, possible future that we can all commit our efforts to realising, unlike the current situation where even the best case scenario is sad and boring.

bladespin

St.Spodo wrote: »

By far the most effective political messaging to date was the call to flatten the curve. It was simple to understand, gave people a goal to aim for and therefore a will to overcome attrition in the short term. I think it's going to be hard for our leaders to engender the will among the general public to spend most of the next 6 months in level 3, but we are here because the decision was made to 'live with the virus' over the summer. My hunch is that at some point we are going to have to change course, and to try to eliminate community transmission on the island of Ireland. This is a positive, possible future that we can all commit our efforts to realising, unlike the current situation where even the best case scenario is sad and boring.

We were always going to have to live with it though, every expert agreed elimination was not possible, they only differed on what would be considered acceptable, consensus was that once hospitals and in particular ICU wards weren't under pressure then that was fine - I can't see this changing at any stage.

mohawk

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Hopefully we will get out of level 5 in the new year.

There isn’t much difference between level 4 and 5 (from what I can see). One thing that possibly has to be considered is Christmas and retail. If we go into level 5 until the new year an astronomical amount of money will leave Ireland in online shopping if non essential shops are closed. I heard a stat on radio that during last lockdown 70% on online shopping went overseas. If we go into level 5 in a couple weeks it will probably be for the whole of November. Realistically you probably can’t open shops in then in December as it would cause major queues and chaos.

We don’t have the hospital beds for a normal winter no mind a winter with an extra Virus floating around so at some point I think we will end up in level 5. Who knows how long we will end up in it for.

Ginger n Lemon

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Of cases? Absolutely.

But when most common symptom that positive PCR tested people share is that they are perfectly healthy, its difficult to imagine stay at home order with level 6 your colleague McConkey is proposing going ahead.

But listen, its a dazzling display from you today (;)) just use common sense, Level 5 recommended - didnt even go to level 4. Its quite obvious govt bases decisions now on either deaths (of which there are less than 1 on average per day for over 2 months) or public finances (10bn deficit already, coming up to busiest retail period, cant afford another stay home and clap for HSE workers exercise)

You didnt answer - does your hospital have enuff masks? You wont be giving barbers a stink eye for hoarding masks this winter will you?

You are like an old broken record. You can't see the wood for the trees. I'm talking about the future and you are still reminiscing about things that happened in the early summer. Keep your head, take your vaccine and wear your mask like a good son of "Ireland"

ThunbergsAreGo

St.Spodo wrote: »

By far the most effective political messaging to date was the call to flatten the curve. It was simple to understand, gave people a goal to aim for and therefore a will to overcome attrition in the short term. I think it's going to be hard for our leaders to engender the will among the general public to spend most of the next 6 months in level 3, but we are here because the decision was made to 'live with the virus' over the summer. My hunch is that at some point we are going to have to change course, and to try to eliminate community transmission on the island of Ireland. This is a positive, possible future that we can all commit our efforts to realising, unlike the current situation where even the best case scenario is sad and boring.

You are right, we need a focused goal to get behind.
Not this mish mash where its just going to get progressively worse

Jizique

Vieira82 wrote: »

So just had a light bulb over my head moment about this whole NPHET "leak" or not. Why it doesn't make sense for the NPHET to leak the letter but it does makes sense someone in gov. did it.

So the NPHET sends the recommendation to gov. after the meeting on Sunday, now they wouldn't have any reason at all to leak it to the press at this stage.

On the gov. side though they have all the interest on leaking it. Let me explain why. They leak the letter, NPHET is automatically to blame for scaremongering. So the gov. then comes out as the saviors of the Irish Nation. We will not hear NPHET they are being doomsayers though we think an appropriate rise to level 3 makes sense.

Now imagine there was no leak on Sunday and you get mid afternoon yesterday the government saying that the whole country should be on level 3? Then suddenly everyone would be up in arms against the government for raising it to level 3 in counties with few cases. By leaking the letter, proverbially turning NPHET into a pariah and prophets of doom, then suddenly level 3 nationwide doesn't sound very bad.

So when would a leak from NPHET make sense?

Today after level 3 is announced. Basically after the gov ignores the NPHET recommendation then Tom and co. would come out and say "hey we warned the gov. last Sunday to go level 5 and the gov ignored us.. This would be NPHET going Pontius Pilate and washing their hands of responsibility. By inverting this, the gov essentially turned the gun on them instead of being the victim of their washing of hands.

I would like to hope that at least one member of NPHET realized that going to 5 was nuts and that il Duce Tony, returning after a long sabbatical, had overridden the previous proposal from Thursday and the country needed to be warned in advance

facehugger99

Deleted User wrote: »

I suppose you haven't heard of exponential growth...

Hard not to have, given the doom-mongers have been bleating on about for months.

Here we are 7 months later with a tiny handful of deaths, the median age of whom have been way over the average life-expectancy.

This isn't the deadly virus your facebook feed wants it to be.

It's a first-world, mostly harmless disease for the snowflake generation.