Have NPHET lost the attention of people?

karlitob

Happydays2020 wrote: »

I don’t believe their executive roles can be fully differentiated from their NPHET role.

That’s what I just said. And it’s not supposed to be. They’re are on Nphet because of their executive roles. They are their to represent the HSE and advise the minister - like they do every other day on a million different things - on what the service can deliver and what affect Covid will have on the service. They are not there to say that there should be no supporters at a GaA match.
The clinical members from the HSE who are on Nphet will give their expert evidence based advice - which is requested by the minister. Nphet is a ministerial function. Not a HSE one.

- Obsession with travel while not keeping on top of the the known domestic risks with Travellers, Roma, Direct Provision, meat plants.
- you need to a better understanding of infection control. How do you know that they were ‘not keeping on top of it’. The HSE didn’t devise direct provision, the didn’t put travellers into caravans. Viruses spread in close conditions with poor hygiene and amongst those in specific groups with poorer socioeconomics and education. Covid is no different to suicide, heart disease and cancer amongst these groups - which is higher than the average population. You can’t blame Nphet for that - or can you.

- the obsession with travel was a closed borders approach which was very clear was a utopian solution given our circumstances. Testing at the airport was dismissed as a recommendation. We are now three months behind other jurisdictions on this.
- again, who’s to say it’s wrong. There is no such thing as a negative test, only a non detected. If hogans resignation shower anything is that the advice is to self isolate Coming from certain countries as you can’t be negative when tested.
- testing is incredibly expensive and time consuming. Blanket testing cannot do what you think it does.
- we clearly didn’t have a closed order approach

- mask wearing - confusing and inconsistent advice.
- I would say that the advice evolves Rather than be inconsistent. I would agree that mask wearing is ineffective and shouldn’t be used. However, that is a logical reasoned evidence based response. The national melodrama and usual faux outrage around this forced the hand of government as - I keep saying - this is all about behavioural change rather than logic. The focus was coming off other precautions and the face mask became a distraction. You have unions - bus drivers and teachers - who demanded masks. Clearly masks needed to come in to ensure the wheels keep turning.


- testing capacity being visibly stood down which led to complacency.[/quote]
- it wasn’t visible stepped down, there was no requirement for all 28 testing centres all around the country To open and be staffed during June July and August. The whole thing was ramped up within 36 hours. That is a HSE Issue and not a Nphet one. And the ceo has answered that.

kippy

ElektroToad wrote: »

The NPHET are losing credibility imho.

At the start the message was clear and easy to understand: tight restrictions were imposed on society to "flatten the curve" and buy our health sector valuable time to face the unknown challenges ahead.

Now 6 months on, the message is confusing and contradictory. They say we must learn to "live with the virus" but that doesn't make sense when you consider the huge sectors of the economy are closed / operating as a shadow of their normal selves. That doesn't sound like "living with the virus" to me. It sounds more like "lets all hunker down and hope for the best"... There's no clear goal to work toward and so people are quite rightly a bit fed up with them now.

The message is not as straightforward now because we are not in a "tight restrictions" on everyone scenario. Certains areas/sectors/groups have different sets of restrictions/guidance applied for numerous reasons. Things are not as binary in order to try return to some level of "normal" while ensuring the virus is suppressed.
There's a set numbe of goals to work towards - pity people chose not to see them:
1. Keep the schools open.
2. Keep the virus suppressed.
3. Reduce the pressure on the health system.
To achieve these goals a large number of restrictions are in place, and more available to apply regionally if needed.


Some people are losing patience as their income/mental health/lifestyle has been negatively impactated but this is not the fault of NPHET or indeed the people - this is all understandable and it is something that NPHET and those making these decisions are well aware of.

karlitob

road_high wrote: »

Wow, saying so articulately exactly what so many of us are thinking. You can almost see Miriam and the shock on her face at a real opinion backed up by real evidence
https://twitter.com/rte_primetime/status/1301643430385385473?s=21

He’s fairly brilliant!

road_high

karlitob wrote: »

He’s fairly brilliant!

He knows what he’s talking about. He’s dealing with and seeing the fallout daily. It’s rather disturbing the consequences

robbiezero

road_high wrote: »

Wow, saying so articulately exactly what so many of us are thinking. You can almost see Miriam and the shock on her face at a real opinion backed up by real evidence
https://twitter.com/rte_primetime/status/1301643430385385473?s=21

A very good piece. You can see the shock in Miriams face after he says his piece. They will need to have Gerry Killeen on the next 5 episodes to compensate.

is_that_so

kippy wrote: »

The message is not as straightforward now because we are not in a "tight restrictions" on everyone scenario. Certains areas/sectors/groups have different sets of restrictions/guidance applied for numerous reasons. Things are not as binary in order to try return to some level of "normal" while ensuring the virus is suppressed.
There's a set numbe of goals to work towards - pity people chose not to see them:
1. Keep the schools open.
2. Keep the virus suppressed.
3. Reduce the pressure on the health system.
To achieve these goals a large number of restrictions are in place, and more available to apply regionally if needed.


Some people are losing patience as their income/mental health/lifestyle has been negatively impactated but this is not the fault of NPHET or indeed the people - this is all understandable and it is something that NPHET and those making these decisions are well aware of.

Of course it's always people who are not to blame for not being able to see things properly. Great to have smarter people to put us straight. As been said elsewhere it's a communications failure. NPHET go from concerned to worried and alarmed to the half-baked government measures we've seen recently.

I like Glynn but he doesn't have that public feel that Holohan had. We don't ever hear these so-called "important things" coherently expressed and we are still in a two week rolling cycle. That is where the real problem lies and it's now both a NPHET and a government problem.

FintanMcluskey

road_high wrote: »

He knows what he’s talking about. He’s dealing with and seeing the fallout daily. It’s rather disturbing the consequences

He's very articulate.

Arent the vulnerable very brave? They lived through so much, even they want to open up, worse things than death I suppose.

Few cowards online and in the media who have been an echo chamber of zero Covid look pathectic in comparison.
Really shameful

kippy

is_that_so wrote: »

Of course it's always people who are not to blame for not being able to see things properly. Great to have smarter people to put us straight. As been said elsewhere it's a communications failure. NPHET go from concerned to worried and alarmed to the half-baked government measures we've seen recently.

I like Glynn but he doesn't have that public feel that Holohan had. We don't ever hear these so-called "important things" coherently expressed and we are still in a two week rolling cycle. That is where the real problem lies and it's now both a NPHET and a government problem.

Some people are just idiots - not everyone - but some. Some chose not to engage even. No level of communications mastery will change that.
You don't need to look too far to see idiots at all levels of Irish society.

Holohan and Glynn are not responsible for "public feel" - it should be fairly obvious to you and more than as the timeline has moved on, people patience has withered - not due to the people or the comms, but due to their own personal circumstances and/or the perception around the virus changing for one reason or another.
As I said, all of the above it totally understandable. People finances, health and lifestyle have been severly impacted and in their own bubble that is the worst thing ever.

road_high

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

He's very articulate.

Arent the vulnerable very brave? They lived through so much, even they want to open up, worse things than death I suppose.

Few cowards online and in the media who have been an echo chamber of zero Covid look pathectic in comparison.
Really shameful

There was a deep sadness in what he was saying, I was obviously onboard with what he is saying anyway but you’d have to be a stone not to be moved by it

Happydays2020

karlitob wrote: »

That’s what I just said. And it’s not supposed to be. They’re are on Nphet because of their executive roles. They are their to represent the HSE and advise the minister - like they do every other day on a million different things - on what the service can deliver and what affect Covid will have on the service. They are not there to say that there should be no supporters at a GaA match.
The clinical members from the HSE who are on Nphet will give their expert evidence based advice - which is requested by the minister. Nphet is a ministerial function. Not a HSE one.

- Obsession with travel while not keeping on top of the the known domestic risks with Travellers, Roma, Direct Provision, meat plants.
- you need to a better understanding of infection control. How do you know that they were ‘not keeping on top of it’. The HSE didn’t devise direct provision, the didn’t put travellers into caravans. Viruses spread in close conditions with poor hygiene and amongst those in specific groups with poorer socioeconomics and education. Covid is no different to suicide, heart disease and cancer amongst these groups - which is higher than the average population. You can’t blame Nphet for that - or can you.

- the obsession with travel was a closed borders approach which was very clear was a utopian solution given our circumstances. Testing at the airport was dismissed as a recommendation. We are now three months behind other jurisdictions on this.
- again, who’s to say it’s wrong. There is no such thing as a negative test, only a non detected. If hogans resignation shower anything is that the advice is to self isolate Coming from certain countries as you can’t be negative when tested.
- testing is incredibly expensive and time consuming. Blanket testing cannot do what you think it does.
- we clearly didn’t have a closed order approach

- mask wearing - confusing and inconsistent advice.
- I would say that the advice evolves Rather than be inconsistent. I would agree that mask wearing is ineffective and shouldn’t be used. However, that is a logical reasoned evidence based response. The national melodrama and usual faux outrage around this forced the hand of government as - I keep saying - this is all about behavioural change rather than logic. The focus was coming off other precautions and the face mask became a distraction. You have unions - bus drivers and teachers - who demanded masks. Clearly masks needed to come in to ensure the wheels keep turning.


- testing capacity being visibly stood down which led to complacency.

- it wasn’t visible stepped down, there was no requirement for all 28 testing centres all around the country To open and be staffed during June July and August. The whole thing was ramped up within 36 hours. That is a HSE Issue and not a Nphet one. And the ceo has answered that.[/quote]

You think they are doing a great job. I don’t. In some areas they have done a very good job and in other areas it has been mixed to say the least.

On this point:

“testing is incredibly expensive and time consuming. Blanket testing cannot do what you think it does.”

Indeed it is expensive and time consuming but the signal that the “country is closed” is going to cost a lot more. We have american nationality executives from MNEs who cannot fully participate in the country including staycations because of their accents. Do you think those people will be encouraging further investment here?

Advisors need to look around corners and see the different nuances to their recommendations (even if they may not be the perfect public health solution). They need to understand the broader environment including the political economy in considering recommendations and back in their Other day jobs they need to be walking the walk.

By the way - I am far more critical of the Minister and the current Government. What happened two weeks with the rushed Cabinet meeting was ridiculous and we have seen the broader fall out from that which will have lasting damage to our reputation.

Plumbthedepths

road_high wrote: »

Wow, saying so articulately exactly what so many of us are thinking. You can almost see Miriam and the shock on her face at a real opinion backed up by real evidence
https://twitter.com/rte_primetime/status/1301643430385385473?s=21

It's nice to see someone with intellect and experience to highlight with what people are dealing with and suggesting a more holistic approach needs to be taken.
Hopefully more and more experienced people will put their heads above the parapet and challenge the group think.

Plumbthedepths

Hard to disagree with what he says.
The present governments behaviour is what's going to lose the buy in of people.

https://www.facebook.com/1578426990/posts/10220808550235091/?sfnsn=mo&extid=6N9DYw1LUoRgYhw7

is_that_so

kippy wrote: »

Some people are just idiots - not everyone - but some. Some chose not to engage even. No level of communications mastery will change that.
You don't need to look too far to see idiots at all levels of Irish society.

Holohan and Glynn are not responsible for "public feel" - it should be fairly obvious to you and more than as the timeline has moved on, people patience has withered - not due to the people or the comms, but due to their own personal circumstances and/or the perception around the virus changing for one reason or another.
As I said, all of the above it totally understandable. People finances, health and lifestyle have been severly impacted and in their own bubble that is the worst thing ever.

And your smug condescension is really not going to persuade them to do it either!

kippy

is_that_so wrote: »

And your smug condescension is really not going to persuade them to do it either!

So you disagree?

karlitob

Happydays2020 wrote: »

- it wasn’t visible stepped down, there was no requirement for all 28 testing centres all around the country To open and be staffed during June July and August. The whole thing was ramped up within 36 hours. That is a HSE Issue and not a Nphet one. And the ceo has answered that.

You think they are doing a great job. I don’t. In some areas they have done a very good job and in other areas it has been mixed to say the least.

On this point:

“testing is incredibly expensive and time consuming. Blanket testing cannot do what you think it does.”

Indeed it is expensive and time consuming but the signal that the “country is closed” is going to cost a lot more. We have american nationality executives from MNEs who cannot fully participate in the country including staycations because of their accents. Do you think those people will be encouraging further investment here?

Advisors need to look around corners and see the different nuances to their recommendations (even if they may not be the perfect public health solution). They need to understand the broader environment including the political economy in considering recommendations and back in their Other day jobs they need to be walking the walk.

By the way - I am far more critical of the Minister and the current Government. What happened two weeks with the rushed Cabinet meeting was ridiculous and we have seen the broader fall out from that which will have lasting damage to our reputation.[/quote]

As I say, blanket testing doesn’t do what you think it does. Those issues you identify will remain, or otherwise, whether or not their is blanket testing.
So yes, throwing good money after bad, is not a good use of resources.
No matter how many tests you do, there will still only be a positive rate of about 1-2%, notwithstanding the sensitivity and specificity issues it has. The detected or not detected depends on viral. It is a problem is people think a negative test is negative for Covid 19. The consequence is that we will end up in the same boat as the masks - a false sense of security not grounded in evidence, and importantly - to the detriment of The effective measures of distance, hand hygiene and cough etiquette.

And I disagree - it is not Nphet role to understand all political consequences of all recommendations that they make. That’s for government, all governments departments and ultimately cabinet.

They are a function of the DoH, not government. It’s all in their terms of reference. Just go look.

Oranage2

People are fed up with their and the government's contradictions.

Thousands of businesses in Kildare, Laois and Offaly followed the guidelines to the letter but were forced to close when the real culprits the food processing plants could remain open even though they were responsible for 100s of cases.

Next they said we can't watch live sports or have house gatherings more than 6 people. But politicians broke all their restrictions by having an 81 person golf dinner.

Finally people don't think the virus is as serious anymore, unless you're in that vulnerable category people aren't scared.

karlitob

Oranage2 wrote: »

Finally people don't think the virus is as serious anymore, unless you're in that vulnerable category people aren't scared.

And this is the point. Behavioural health psychology 101. How do you get people to care about their health and that of others when there is no immediate (or at least perceived) immediate risk?
Sure people die of cardiac issues, respiratory issues and cancers daily due, in varying degrees, to drinking, smoking, lack of exercise, poor diet etx.

The question for government then is how do you Support people to make the right choice and to ‘force’ (and I say that not with its true meaning) To do what’s good for them, if they don’t.

Sugar tax, seat belts, cycle lanes, speed limits, etc

suicide_circus

road_high wrote: »

Wow, saying so articulately exactly what so many of us are thinking. You can almost see Miriam and the shock on her face at a real opinion backed up by real evidence
https://twitter.com/rte_primetime/status/1301643430385385473?s=21

We've reduced life to staying alive. I know that sounds ridiculous at first but there is a difference between a life that is worth living and one thats not.

kippy

suicide_circus wrote: »

We've reduced life to staying alive. I know that sounds ridiculous at first but there is a difference between a life that is worth living and one thats not.

We have far from reduced "life" to staying alive.

Gael23

kippy wrote: »

We have far from reduced "life" to staying alive.

What is there to do outside work and your. home?

Plumbthedepths

kippy wrote: »

We have far from reduced "life" to staying alive.

I think the Geriatrician on PT might disagree with you.

kippy

Gael23 wrote: »

What is there to do outside work and your. home?

Lots. The problem here appears to be your viewpoint and not reality

kippy

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

I think the Geriatrician on PT might disagree with you.

I don't think he would unless he specifically stated to stop living and stay alive

hayoc

kippy wrote: »

Lots. The problem here appears to be your viewpoint and not reality

There are plenty of daytime activities alright. Limited by social distancing and numbers of course.

Evenings, not so much. No musicals, no plays, no comedy shows, no pubs, no concerts, no festivals, no house parties (if you are being a responsible adult), no nightclubs, restaurants are functioning under strict rules so the old style of going to a restaurant and then sitting over coffee or a drink for a couple of hours after the meal isnt happening, what CAN you do after 10pm now that involves socialising with other people?

Ridgerun

Ridgerun wrote: »

My grandfather was diagnosed with lung cancer 7 years ago. He's still living a normal and happy life now as luckily it hasn't progressed much. If he caught covid 7 years ago when diagnosed and receiving chemo, he'd be down as a statistic and people would have had the viewpoint of "sure he was going to die soon anyway".

He'd also have died of MRSA, C Diff (my best friend's dad died from this in similar circumstances to your grandad), the flu or a common cold, as many people on chemo have. If anything with everyone taking precautions, he'd be LESS likely to die now than 7 years ago. However he'd be far more likely to be diagnosed too late to be treated.

Sorry for your loss, but if you are immunocompromised in any way you need to be extremely vigilant.

Zebra3

hayoc wrote: »

There are plenty of daytime activities alright. Limited by social distancing and numbers of course.

Evenings, not so much. No musicals, no plays, no comedy shows, no pubs, no concerts, no festivals, no house parties (if you are being a responsible adult), no nightclubs, restaurants are functioning under strict rules so the old style of going to a restaurant and then sitting over coffee or a drink for a couple of hours after the meal isnt happening, what CAN you do after 10pm now that involves socialising with other people?

No attending sports events.

They should've advised a stricter lockdown for a few more weeks in June when numbers were on the floor and consolidate the first lockdown. Now we're left with a government which nobody prefers over the last caretaker government, giving mixed messages and no strong sense of leadership or an end goal for us all to aim towards. We can't keep having lockdowns because it's depressing the hell out of people and destroying the economy, and yet a severe prolonged lockdown coupled with very strict controls over who comes into and out of the country are the only way to get rid of the virus from this island. People only had one severe lockdown "in them", and it is pointless castigating people for giving out about not wanting to have another one. This winter is going to be so sh'it.

hayoc

Zebra3 wrote: »

No attending sports events.

Yes - of course - apologies for omitting that, I never attended them pre lockdown.

Is there ANYTHING that can be done in terms of socialising in the evenings now bar a socially distanced restaurant visit for a short period of time?

My gym is open in the evenings but its hardly relaxing, or socialising!

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

He'd also have died of MRSA, C Diff (my best friend's dad died from this in similar circumstances to your grandad), the flu or a common cold, as many people on chemo have. If anything with everyone taking precautions, he'd be LESS likely to die now than 7 years ago. However he'd be far more likely to be diagnosed too late to be treated.

Sorry for your loss, but if you are immunocompromised in any way you need to be extremely vigilant.

I don't get the point you're trying to make here.

My initial point was saying that people who were vulnerable that passed from covid were "going to die soon anyway" is an inaccurate statement with no real factual basis that's being used by people trying to shirk responsibility from themselves. I never said vulnerable people don't also need to be vigilant.

My grandad has lived 7 years - had he died from covid when he got his initial diagnosis, people would be saying "he was gonna die soon anyway" to suit their argument.

Also the majority of those illnesses you listed aren't being passed on in the community by healthy people to vulnerable people - which is the key issue as to why everyone needs to be responsible here.

Covid is much more contagious and has a much higher mortality rate than the common cold and flu.

karlitob

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

I think the Geriatrician on PT might disagree with you.

Only about 10% of older people ever engage with health services. The vast majority are fit and healthy. While geriatricians are experience physicians who are expert in older persons - they do only treat sick older people, not all older people. So while articulate and insightful - it doesn’t represent the viewpoint of all older people.