Have NPHET lost the attention of people?

Andrewf20

Vieira82 wrote: »

Genuinely thanks for your comment and for keeping it civil. I tried to explain in my previous comment above this one why in mathematical terms it's important to curb the virus.

Also and according to WHO lockdowns should always be the last case scenario and countries like South Korea, Japan and New Zealand have been able to have minimal lockdowns through efficient contact tracing.

If you got time have a look at the comments from Dr. Mike Ryan from the WHO on this press conference from last week. Specifically what he says at the 1 hour mark. I fully agree with his words:

https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?extid=PPlCBraUANDJTJPr&v=613855985950549&ref=watch_permalink

No problem at all.

Unfortunately I don't have the time now to listen to the full video but I had a listen to Michael Ryan at the 1hr mark and a few minutes before hand too. He mentioned a small uptick in deaths as we enter into the autumn but I get the impression that this is expected for this time of year anyway? Is the level of death increasing at a rate higher than what's considered normal in previous years? From what I have seen, it doesnt appear so far to be the case.

He mentions about protecting the old and vulnerable which I understand. However in previous years, in Europe up to 140,000 people died of respiratory illnesses with no lockdowns (140K in 2017/18 for example vs approx 190K for covid). Should we have had lock downs in those years or in years in the future also? Where do we draw the line?

Id need to dig out the link - but Sweden pulled 100 years of data for seasonal deaths for each year. What was interesting was that there were numerous years with similar or more excess deaths in winter compared to the covid spike. From a subjective look at the graph, this could have been every 8 - 10 years. The year 2000, for example, apparently saw more deaths in Europe compared to Covid but it was over a longer time frame.

I think what's getting lost in the noise of covid is the impact of the lockdown which seems to be getting less air play generally. It seems some experts are on board with this also:

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-54442386

And of course we have Sweden where deaths have been pretty much in single figures from around mid July with almost no lockdown. Apparently Japan is similar to Sweden in their approach and their death rates have been very low since the start of June.

kippy

Andrewf20 wrote: »

No problem at all.

Unfortunately I don't have the time now to listen to the full video but I had a listen to Michael Ryan at the 1hr mark and a few minutes before hand too. He mentioned a small uptick in deaths as we enter into the autumn but I get the impression that this is expected for this time of year anyway? Is the level of death increasing at a rate higher than what's considered normal in previous years? From what I have seen, it doesnt appear so far to be the case.

He mentions about protecting the old and vulnerable which I understand. However in previous years, in Europe up to 140,000 people died of respiratory illnesses with no lockdowns (140K in 2017/18 for example vs approx 190K for covid). Should we have had lock downs in those years or in years in the future also? Where do we draw the line?

Id need to dig out the link - but Sweden pulled 100 years of data for seasonal deaths for each year. What was interesting was that there were numerous years with similar or more excess deaths in winter compared to the covid spike. From a subjective look at the graph, this could have been every 8 - 10 years. The year 2000, for example, apparently saw more deaths in Europe compared to Covid but it was over a longer time frame.

I think what's getting lost in the noise of covid is the impact of the lockdown which seems to be getting less air play generally. It seems some experts are on board with this also:

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-54442386

And of course we have Sweden where deaths have been pretty much in single figures from around mid July with almost no lockdown. Apparently Japan is similar to Sweden in their approach and their death rates have been very low since the start of June.

I don't think it's getting lost at all. It's been brought up in every thread I have read and in a lot of commentary in the papers and indeed by experts.

FintanMcluskey

Andrewf20 wrote: »

No problem at all.

Unfortunately I don't have the time now to listen to the full video but I had a listen to Michael Ryan at the 1hr mark and a few minutes before hand too. He mentioned a small uptick in deaths as we enter into the autumn but I get the impression that this is expected for this time of year anyway? Is the level of death increasing at a rate higher than what's considered normal in previous years? From what I have seen, it doesnt appear so far to be the case.

He mentions about protecting the old and vulnerable which I understand. However in previous years, in Europe up to 140,000 people died of respiratory illnesses with no lockdowns (140K in 2017/18 for example vs approx 190K for covid). Should we have had lock downs in those years or in years in the future also? Where do we draw the line?

Id need to dig out the link - but Sweden pulled 100 years of data for seasonal deaths for each year. What was interesting was that there were numerous years with similar or more excess deaths in winter compared to the covid spike. From a subjective look at the graph, this could have been every 8 - 10 years. The year 2000, for example, apparently saw more deaths in Europe compared to Covid but it was over a longer time frame.

I think what's getting lost in the noise of covid is the impact of the lockdown which seems to be getting less air play generally. It seems some experts are on board with this also:

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-54442386

And of course we have Sweden where deaths have been pretty much in single figures from around mid July with almost no lockdown. Apparently Japan is similar to Sweden in their approach and their death rates have been very low since the start of June.

I have been repeating this point for months.

2020 is a normal year on the death count.

We implemented and formulated this whole Covid response on the basis of seeing 100k plus excess deaths in Ireland.

But for some reason, knowing the initial projects were totally inaccurate, we have not ammended our approach in anyway whatsoever

McHardcore

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

I have been repeating this point for months.
2020 is a normal year on the death count.

Can you share with us the figures from where you are drawing this conclusion?

FintanMcluskey

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

I have been repeating this point for months.

2020 is a normal year on the death count.

We implemented and formulated this whole Covid response on the basis of seeing 100k plus excess deaths in Ireland.

But for some reason, knowing the initial projects were totally inaccurate, we have not ammended our approach in anyway whatsoever

Finty lad! The excess deaths were prevented by the lockdown. Do you not understand cause and effect? Also, evidence that there was excess deaths in Ireland over the last six months? Only if you have time, I know you travel the length and the breadth of of Ireland gauging opinions

Rrrrrr2

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Finty lad! The excess deaths were prevented by the lockdown. Do you not understand cause and effect? Also, evidence that there was no excess deaths I. Ireland over the last six months? Only if you have time, I know you travel the length and the breadth of of Ireland gauging opinions

They were in their hole. Absolutely no evidence for that crazy assertion. As we can see from other countries- nations that had very strict lockdowns are tracking deaths almost same as those without.
I know lockdown is like a religion or santy Claus still to some. It hurts to hear what a wasted sacrifice it all was and isn’t a real thing. Let’s repeat it again- maybe 3rd time lucky?

karlitob

Rubberchikken wrote: »

The Hose has less money to spend on critical beds because it's wasted on the obscene amount if useless managers the Hose has deemed necessary to employ and now can't be gotten rid of.

Which managers?

Andrewf20

Deleted User wrote: »

Finty lad! The excess deaths were prevented by the lockdown. Do you not understand cause and effect? Also, evidence that there was no excess deaths I. Ireland over the last six months? Only if you have time, I know you travel the length and the breadth of of Ireland gauging opinions

But that doesnt explain why Sweden & Japan are doing so well? Also, if you look at the graph of UK deaths - they continued to decline from the end of June onwards despite over 47000 pubs opening back up with social distancing recommendations but with no mandatory mask rules.

Apparently the Cornwall region was swamped with tourists in the summer after lockdown eased in June which fuelled fears there would be a spike in deaths. Apparently there was no ICU spikes for 3 months since and zero deaths. And thats with a 25% over 65 population.

Captain_Crash

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Finty lad! The excess deaths were prevented by the lockdown. Do you not understand cause and effect? Also, evidence that there was no excess deaths I. Ireland over the last six months? Only if you have time, I know you travel the length and the breadth of of Ireland gauging opinions

In the one post you’ve managed to agree that excess deaths are down and cite a reason for it.... then ask for evidence showing excess deaths are down? Which is it?

karlitob

Dempo1 wrote: »

Why would I exactly? There the folks who are actually dealing with this crisis, not the clowns who spend their time spouting out nonsensical stats and portraying how wonderful they really are.

Out of a total workforce of 125,000, around 20,000 are in management And administrative grades. Of which 1900 in senior manager. 1.5% of the total workforce.

So what you’re saying is - NONE of the 105,000 patient facing (and not all of them are) clinical or support grades never do anything wrong during in their professional practice - but ALL the 1900 senior managers are clowns. I omitted the administrative and clerical staff cos I presumed that you think they all do a brilliant job also.

Tell me then - who built brand new ict systems from the ground up in a few weeks at the beginning of the pandemic, who procured sufficient PPE and other equipment required, who ensured that new financial control systems were instigated overnight to ensure that money flowed quickly to where it was needed, who coordinated the training of staff on a national basis At the beginning of the pandemic.

This banal - staff good managers bad - is BS. To think that there is no criticism for 84%, if not 98.5% of all HSE staff and only criticism for 1.5% of the staff. Cop onto yourself. Like all workplaces - there’s great people, mediocre people and poor people working in their jobs - no matter the job. And no one, absolutely no one, is above reproach especially those paid by the tax payer.

karlitob

Dempo1 wrote: »

I do agree but who exactly drcoded to close down hospitals in march? I got the need for dedicated wards but I saw first hand the damage done by effectively closing major hospitals down, indeed when I had an op, I was brought initially to a Midlands hospital, patched up sent home and had to make my way to a private hospital for the op two days later, indeed the consultant is actually based at the Midlands hospital. I was one of 3 patients in the A&E ward at the general hospital, it was like tge set of an eery horror movie, lights dimed, not a sound, not a person in sight.

As an aside I have a separate long term Thyroid issue and all clinics stopped, some tele appointments which are beyond farcical and re the op, I requires Physio, and of course that two over the phone, seriously its like doing yoga via email, just absurd. But more concerning, 7 months later people wity far more serious issues, cancer, screening etc have been abandoned and waiting lists now beyond comprehension.

I will never get the decision to close down hospitals and certainly not get permitting seriously ill patients be essentially abandoned, these are unforgivable decisions and Typically HSE management have no answers or it seems solutions.

Typical ‘typical HSE management’ drivel.

You seem to be forgetting that the context at the time. A major global pandemic where no one - absolutely no one - knew anything about Covid. As Simon Coveney said - there are no experts in Covid. All we saw was bodies piling up in bergamo and New York. Scenes from China and Italy never witnessed by anyone before.

If you think clinical decisions are made by non-clinical management then you have another thing coming. DoH made a policy decision ‘Lockdown’ - HSE implemented it. Clinicians made decision on how best to provide a service - HSE implemented it.
If the management of hospitals in an unprecedented global Pandemic was not up to your usual standards as a healthcare manager then I’m sure the HSE ceo and all those other ‘HSE managers’ will provide you with an apology. And I’m sorry your experience as a patient throughout the unprecedented global pandemic was unsatisfactory but - to be fair - tough. You’re not dead. Your were prioritised out for sicker patients. Deal with it.

karlitob

Dempo1 wrote: »

Hmmm mm, intriguing question, I've a sense some interesting headlines tomorrow, but its pretty evident Houlihan and certainly not senior NPHET people to blame, I actually suspect it was a HSE person, running telling tales etc etc

Ah, you’ve only got one soapbox. Typical HSE bashing.

You’re pretty certain that it wasn’t the senior nphet people - even though about 10 of those senior other people are senior HSE people.

Make up your mind who you’re giving out about.

karlitob

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The excess deaths were prevented by the lockdown. Do you not understand cause and effect?

Do you understand cause and effect. You might look up the difference between correlation and cause and effect.

Not sure how you came to the conclusion that excess deaths are prevented by a lockdown.

Deaths from road traffic accidents increased.
Deaths in nursing homes increased.
We won’t know for years on deaths from suicide.
Why wouldn’t people die from cancer, cardiac causes and respiratory causes during lockdown like they do everyday? The only logic in your statements is that when hospitals are working at normal capacity more people die than when they are at reduced capacity.

Happydays2020

karlitob wrote: »

Typical ‘typical HSE management’ drivel.

You seem to be forgetting that the context at the time. A major global pandemic where no one - absolutely no one - knew anything about Covid. As Simon Coveney said - there are no experts in Covid. All we saw was bodies piling up in bergamo and New York. Scenes from China and Italy never witnessed by anyone before.

If you think clinical decisions are made by non-clinical management then you have another thing coming. DoH made a policy decision ‘Lockdown’ - HSE implemented it. Clinicians made decision on how best to provide a service - HSE implemented it.
If the management of hospitals in an unprecedented global Pandemic was not up to your usual standards as a healthcare manager then I’m sure the HSE ceo and all those other ‘HSE managers’ will provide you with an apology. And I’m sorry your experience as a patient throughout the unprecedented global pandemic was unsatisfactory but - to be fair - tough. You’re not dead. Your were prioritised out for sicker patients. Deal with it.

To bring this back on topic. It was not NPHET who did all that.

But seriously, would be interested to hear more.

Loafing Oaf

Captain_Crash wrote: »

In the one post you’ve managed to agree that excess deaths are down and cite a reason for it.... then ask for evidence showing excess deaths are down? Which is it?

Presumably the poster is saying deaths are up but not by as much as if there hadn't been a lockdown.

NewMan1982

facehugger99 wrote: »

Because I've a degree in mathematics.

Pathetic

Goldengirl

karlitob wrote: »

And there we have it ladies and gentleman.

No criticism of nursing allowed. No acknowledgement of failures in nursing. No acknowledgment of their responsibility to the tax payer and their patients/service users.

Standard response though
- don’t acknowledge any failures
- see it as a personal attack on the profession (you’ll see from my post that I referenced clinical staff and not nursing)
- trotting out the old line of ‘doing their best’
- general attacking the person for calling out these behaviours.
- using ‘the public’ to support their position.....whoever ‘the public’ are.

Well I’m a member of ‘the public’. Maybe ‘your best’ isn’t good enough. Maybe it’s nothing got to do with the other clinical and work related issues that nurses like to conflate when they’re on the back foot.

I know and work with many many nurses - they don’t want to take the vaccine for a variety of reasons including concerns with receiving a vaccination.

Only seeing this tripe now , too busy to answer anti nurse and anti vaxx flannel .
Sure you like answering yourself it seems anyway !

Captain_Crash

Captain_Crash wrote: »

In the one post you’ve managed to agree that excess deaths are down and cite a reason for it.... then ask for evidence showing excess deaths are down? Which is it?

I stuck a no in there by mistake as I was typing on my phone. I'll correct.

Goldengirl

Goldengirl wrote: »

Only seeing this tripe now , too busy to answer anti nurse and anti vaxx flannel .
Sure you like answering yourself it seems anyway !

Think karlitob works as a HCP. Wonder if he'll take his vaccine?

patnor1011

Vieira82 wrote: »

I just knew you would come up with something like this. No. A death caused by a new virus not something caused by dietary issues, or lifestyle choices... thanks.

Lol dude you are joking right?
This "new virus" is literaly killing only the people with problems caused by dietary issues and bad lifestyle choices.
Even old people with a good diet and healthy lifestyle can beat it with ease.

karlitob

Goldengirl wrote: »

Only seeing this tripe now , too busy to answer anti nurse and anti vaxx flannel .
Sure you like answering yourself it seems anyway !

Again, usual response. Attacking the poster and not the point. ‘Busy’ - too busy with the off-duty, more like. It’s not ‘anti-nurse’ - I’m pro-vaccination. Otherwise known as pro-science and pro-evidence based healthcare.

karlitob

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Think karlitob works as a HCP. Wonder if he'll take his vaccine?

Well done Sherlock. Very clever. .

So clever I would’ve thought you’d have presumed that I get my vaccination each year - always.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

The radio this morning is all about pushing us towards level 4 now and if we all behave they’ll allow us to have a Christmas....

Jesus Christ.

Wanderer78

patnor1011 wrote:

Lol dude you are joking right? This "new virus" is literaly killing only the people with problems caused by dietary issues and bad lifestyle choices. Even old people with a good diet and healthy lifestyle can beat it with ease.

Thought virologists would be up to their tonsils at the moment, and unable to communicate their findings on the Internets, thank you again for your amazing efforts all round

suicide_circus

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

I have been repeating this point for months.

2020 is a normal year on the death count.

We implemented and formulated this whole Covid response on the basis of seeing 100k plus excess deaths in Ireland.

But for some reason, knowing the initial projects were totally inaccurate, we have not ammended our approach in anyway whatsoever

Jinglejangle69

Hunky Monster wrote: »

The radio this morning is all about pushing us towards level 4 now and if we all behave they’ll allow us to have a Christmas....

Jesus Christ.

Why do people have such a hard on for shutting down society?

I can't get my head around it.

Wanderer78

Jinglejangle69 wrote:

Why do people have such a hard on for shutting down society?

Tis mad alright, you d swear there was a deadly virus about the place

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Why do people have such a hard on for shutting down society?

I can't get my head around it.

Because it doesn’t affect the people who want to shut it down. You won’t see any member of the Dail or from NPHET down at the dole queue. It won’t affect their multiple properties they own or their six figure salaries plus “expenses”. It won’t stop them getting a pint in their Dail bar either.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Tis mad alright, you d swear there was a deadly virus about the place

Deadly to some people. Mainly old and vulnerable. Let’s not forget that.

Wanderer78

Hunky Monster wrote:

Deadly to some people. Mainly old and vulnerable. Let’s not forget that.

Indeedy, also highly contagious!