Have NPHET lost the attention of people?

karlitob

faceman wrote: »

Just on the contact tracing app, the one we use in Ireland is considered one of the best globally. Some US states are now using the same technology.

As slow as it may have seemed, development went way beyond just creating an app. There are hardware needs and privacy considerations.

Spain, who had one of the most proactive approaches to the pandemic IMO, rolled out their app much later than us. I often wonder if they had it by end of June would things be different now.

I will beat the government up on lots of things, but not the app.

And again - it’s down to the public about whether that tool is useful. There’s only 1.6m people registered on it. I know there may be technical issues but if the public want a functioning test and trace system - well they have one in their pocket. Everyone has a responsibility.

karlitob

MOH wrote: »

The first time we actually did 15,000 tests in a day was last Thursday.
We were supposed to be able to manage 100K tests a week by the end of May.
We hit 80K in mid September, we seem to be close to 100K now, for the first time.

We had contract tracing centres being closed at the end of the lockdown when those resources could have been use to help determine where clusters were actually occurring. Besides which, you don't need clinical expertise for that aspect. It's a data gathering exercise, there's no medical aspect.

Blaming the general public doesn't absolve the government of their failures.

You can call it blame or you can call it responsibility - whatever way you cut it....human behaviour is the cause of transmission and human behaviour is the only way to stop it.

There is only so much behavioural science can guide us on. Bottom line is that everyone has to do their bit. But as I said in another post - that’s only if you agree that there is a problem - and even then on the nature and extent of the problem - and even then agree a solution and even then the nature and extent of the solution.


Closure of contact Tracing centres meant those employees went back to their normal jobs (abnormal of course since they were missing for a while and had so much to catch up on) and then had to be redeployed over a weekend.

Finally - you’ll accept that your opinion on how to conduct a seroprevalence study or any study at determining the source of infections is not worth a damn. I don’t care what you think the process is or what clinical staff are or aren’t needed.

Epidemiology is done by epidemiologists.


Ps. We were able to manage it - but there was no call for 10000 at the end of May. Where have you been? It only hit 80,000 because that’s the only what has required.

karlitob

faceman wrote: »

Thanks for sharing this, I hadn't seen it before. Its very much out of date now, does the gov have an updated version? Im sure you'll agree we cant use measures from April to measure today

Im surprised at the testing figures. I'm hearing too many anecdotal stories about delays in turning things around. As previously mentioned, my own friend had 6 days from GP contact to result. Anecdotal is anecdotal (although my friend's case I can vouch for. He's in Dublin FWIW) but regardless, these testing stats should be shared more openly.

There's definitely room for improvement. Taking the GP step out for example. We should be striving for a max of 24 hours for test results.



Agreed re individual responsibility.



I get what you're saying and my only experience with public work is contracts I'm brought in for and what I read in the papers. I do have a wealth of experience from the private sector though and through my lens things move much slower in the public sector. I dont think anyone is claiming its easy to do, however senior people and TDs are in those roles willingly and for a reason.

Without revealing the bodies and companies in question. A friend of mine I worked with, a senior decision maker in my company, got a job with what I'll call a state regulatory body. I remember the day he told me he was already seeking a new job elsewhere. A crisis arisen for the sector overnight on a Thursday. He tried to rally people together for a meeting first thing Monday morning. His boss told him its grand to let it wait till Monday. Given the issue it was quite serious and needed urgent attention. There was no sense of urgency given.

I realise these are just anecdotal stories and perhaps even one offs. However they sour the taste for us, particular in the midst of a crisis like this.

Anyway, good response on your part, thanks for sharing the links.

Not at all. Good to have a civilised debate and discussion for once. Though I can be truculent.

And look - I appreciate you acknowledging that the anecdotal stories are anecdotal. I have the same ones with private companies (and private hospitals).

I suppose what I’ve learned in my experience is that’s it the same people doing the same jobs - there’s good and bad and all in between. It’s only the context and culture that’s different. Good services respond well, bad services don’t. Good services look to improve, bad services don’t. You can use a stick to good effect - for a short time. And you can use a carrot to good effect - for a short time.

But it’s just people - and whether we like it or not we have to work with the bad services to make them better, because complaining never fixes anything (and I’m not saying you did)

Thanks.

PS - you should be able to find the daily update page from that url. And as for promoting the data - sure what’s the point. People don’t want to listen.

Vieira82

Gonna go on a whim and blatantly say it. There's two kinds of people in this whole situation. Those that take personal responsibility into account of all of this. Those that try to follow all the guidelines daily and that try to be informed through the regular channels to get factual information about all of this.

Then we have those that always point the finger at someone. It's always someone's fault, someone's responsibility but theirs and they are always right without any doubt. They are 100% sure the pandemic is grossly exaggerated by the medical authorities because these doctors all want is to be relevant. They don't want to save lives, they just want to be relevant.

Government is always wrong for following any medical experts, they are catering to their need to be relevant and don't care about the people at all. When the government finally stops listening to experts then it's a fantastic government. This group is deeply selfish, egocentric and does not believe in a civilized, plural society. It believes in the "me" not the "us", it believes in the "my money, my house, my car, my business" not in the "our countries economy, our society, our transport, our Irish businesses" which essentially are doomed lockdown or not.

Because of this they do not want anything of theirs to be minimally threatened. If a global pandemic hits it does not matter to them until someone in their house suddenly gets ill or dies. Climate change is not real until the Everest is covered in Sea Water (and even then it's all a plot by the radical left).

Besides this, they'll continue to argue if one penny stops coming into their bank accounts. Coincidently these people are always better off, they are not low middle class or poor, but high middle class to higher class, with at least one really good house, or maybe a holiday home in Glaway or West Cork, one or two cars not older than five years either all fully paid or on a leasing contract. And despite the fact they only got where they are because of some inheritance of family support they believe those without their same means are all poor drunkards and drug addicts living off the benefits of the meek taxes they pay.

But now here's the funny part. This group never takes responsibility for nothing. They actively where mad for months with the government for the lockdown, for closing down local pubs. To them it does not matter if it saved any lives, all it matters is they stopped enlarging their bank accounts and savings. It does not matter thousands still die daily of this in prominent economies, and they have a sense of those countries being inferior to Ireland and that the "Irish know better"

And because they are never responsible for anything it's always someone's fault. The poor people ripping off benefits from the government. The lazy not going back to work living of the PUP. The civil servants, teachers, health workers, they are all lazy people living of the taxes. Keep in mind it's always this problem. This individual does not want to part ways with any single euro of taxes at all. He demonizes any form of government as being a rip off of his hard earned cash, despite the fact they hardly ever really worked a real day in their lives given the amount of money they inherited or have it from a family member. So they live in constant jealous of government workers, because they, according to their mentality, get free money from the gov and do nothing.

And so, because all of this is hurting their savings, it's all a lie. It's all bull****. And so they are happy the government stopped listening to NPHET last week. All they want is their money to keep flowing. And if it doesn't flow in the same way, you guessed it, it's the governments fault for having followed NPHET before.

But the funny part is, when this really hits home and there's actually people dying by the dozens daily, then suddenly it's the governments fault again. It's the lazy health care workers not doing their jobs. It's the HSE fault.

They won't admit ever they where wrong or if they had any responsibility in promoting the idea that this was not serious, it's everyone else fault but theirs.

And here we come to the most mind boggling part of this... even if we had hundreds of dead a day, they'll still not believe it's a pandemic at all. They will be so deeply entrenched in their alternative reality that it's all lies to stop the money trickling into their bank accounts. Essentially loosing all sense of rational because they cannot in any single way be proven wrong, they can't be wrong about it, so it's easy to continue to make up "facts" even though people are dying. Because deep down they continue to not care if people die, 100? 1000? 100000? It does not matter, as long as they don't die at their door step...

They essentially believe deep down in the back of their minds that the money they got grants them immortality and immunity to any kind of real life situation. They honestly believe they are immune to this and dying or having a long term disease only happens to others not to them. They drive recklessly because they honestly believe they will never have a car crash. And if they do it's the road surface, it's the car failure, it's the cows next to the field at fault. But never, ever are they responsible for anything...

The money is like a bubble and if it gets thinner it's always from outside factors, never from personal behavioral issues.

mollser

Top rant Vieira but absolutely zero basis in reality unfortunately. I'm sure somebody will dissect but there's a lot there - will take a while!

bladespin

Well the finger pointing does generally seem to be coming from the pro pandemic lobby, I'd certainly qualify as one who has and will continue to follow guidelines but not without questioning, I need to see some logic and generally can. There's definately more than two types though, from those who follow blindly (both sides), the unwilling, the ignorant etc etc, we'd like it all to be simple but it's not.
Both sides do love to slam anyone that questions their viewpoint which is disappointing, especially on a discussion site.

Zebra3

karlitob wrote: »

And again - it’s down to the public about whether that tool is useful. There’s only 1.6m people registered on it. I know there may be technical issues but if the public want a functioning test and trace system - well they have one in their pocket. Everyone has a responsibility.

Doesn't work on my phone.

That my fault?

karlitob

Zebra3 wrote: »

Doesn't work on my phone.

That my fault?

Well clearly you didn’t bother reading my posts but let me dumb it down for you.

The app is a tool - there are 1.6m registrations. The aim is 2.2m or 60pc of the adult population of smartphone users who can download the app.

So that’s Only 70%. So while it’s hard to read posts while you’re up on your high horse - clearly there’s a responsibility on everyone who can download the app. And nowhere did I say it was YOUR fault that you can download the app.

Downloading the app is analogous to any other vaccine. Only a certain age group get it but it provides a herd immunity to all. Similarly, not all people need to download the app - or can download the app in your case - but 2.2m are needed to ensure it has effective coverage and can do what it needs to do.

It’s either that or continue to mouth off about the test and trace, government, HSE blah blah blah.

Zebra3

karlitob wrote: »

Well clearly you didn’t bother reading my posts but let me dumb it down for you.

The app is a tool - there are 1.6m registrations. The aim is 2.2m or 60pc of the adult population of smartphone users who can download the app.

So that’s Only 70%. So while it’s hard to read posts while you’re up on your high horse - clearly there’s a responsibility on everyone who can download the app. And nowhere did I say it was YOUR fault that you can download the app.

Downloading the app is analogous to any other vaccine. Only a certain age group get it but it provides a herd immunity to all. Similarly, not all people need to download the app - or can download the app in your case - but 2.2m are needed to ensure it has effective coverage and can do what it needs to do.

It’s either that or continue to mouth off about the test and trace, government, HSE blah blah blah.

You're the one on the high horse.

You said the public had a responsibility yet myself and no doubt a lot of others can't use it on our phones.

Who's fault is that?

karlitob

Zebra3 wrote: »

You're the one on the high horse.

You said the public had a responsibility yet myself and no doubt a lot of others can't use it on our phones.

Who's fault is that?

Yeah - the public does. The other 0.8m who haven’t downloaded the app and have the technology to do it. No one is specifically talking about you. You’re not the centre of the world.

No one is talking about ‘fault’ either. You need to understand the difference between fault, blame and responsibility.

Donald Trump

Zebra3 wrote: »

You're the one on the high horse.

You said the public had a responsibility yet myself and no doubt a lot of others can't use it on our phones.

Who's fault is that?

Do you think that the people designing and writing the app should reach out and interview every single member of the public in order to gather specs before writing it? Or just yourself? I don't think they have time for that. They just need to get it up and running for majority of people quickly. Pareto principle

Donald Trump

Donald Trump wrote: »

Do you think that the people designing and writing the app should reach out and interview every single member of the public in order to gather specs before writing it? Or just yourself? I don't think they have time for that. They just need to get it up and running for majority of people quickly. Pareto principle

I think you don't know how app development works....

Zebra3

karlitob wrote: »

Yeah - the public does. The other 0.8m who haven’t downloaded the app and have the technology to do it. No one is specifically talking about you. You’re not the centre of the world.

No one is talking about ‘fault’ either. You need to understand the difference between fault, blame and responsibility.

You're saying everybody has responsibility yet everybody can't download it. :rolleyes:

kippy

Zebra3 wrote: »

You're saying everybody has responsibility yet everybody can't download it. :rolleyes:

There are lots of people out there who can download the app but chose not to. I don't really know why, this is the issue, not the ones that cannot download the app because they don't own a smartphone capable of running it.
If you don't own a smartphone capable of running it but want to download it you can weigh up pros and cons.
The app is only one angle, there are plenty other ways people can protect themselves and others.

Everybody has responsibility to review and use/implement as many precautions and tools as possible to protect themselves and others.

uli84

Of course they should get rid of it, in majority of the countries it is the government that decides and rightly so, this is just adding to the mess and conflicts.

karlitob

uli84 wrote: »

Of course they should get rid of it, in majority of the countries it is the government that decides and rightly so, this is just adding to the mess and conflicts.

Stop being silly. The government does decide. Like all governments. Who do you think should advise government on health policy? Do you think the chief medical officer role should stop and not advise any minister on any health related issues.

faceman

The media are saying NPHET will push for more restrictions in Dublin this week. In reality if cases go back up Im sure they will. I never thought I'd be praying to the space gods for them not to close the gyms! :pac:

Doctor in Cavan in the Examiner today saying spike in referrals there and giving credit to testing turnaround. She was critical of contact tracing taking too long though.

is_that_so

faceman wrote: »

The media are saying NPHET will push for more restrictions in Dublin this week. In reality if cases go back up Im sure they will. I never thought I'd be praying to the space gods for them not to close the gyms! :pac:

Doctor in Cavan in the Examiner today saying spike in referrals there and giving credit to testing turnaround. She was critical of contact tracing taking too long though.

I concur on the gyms, an oasis of calm and effort! Dublin seems to be stabilising, but an R0 of under 1 there is what people should be praying for.

Donald Trump

Deleted User wrote: »

I think you don't know how app development works....

Yeah..........whatever dude.



You're obviously an "expert" if you think that they should go and interview every single person in the country to gather specs and requirements :pac:

McHardcore

Deleted User wrote: »

I think you don't know how app development works....

Donald Trump is right (not The Donald Trump). This is not how app development work. You target the app at a certain population, in this case, the population of Ireland. You cannot satisfy the requirement for the app to work for everyone. Its not feasible. But you attempt to make the app work for as many as possible given your resources. There will be corner cases where it doesnt work for everyone. There will also be bugs, such as the one that used too much battery on Android phones in an early release. You attempt to remove these in test as fix them when they appear, the same as every app.

McHardcore

Zebra3 wrote: »

You said the public had a responsibility yet myself and no doubt a lot of others can't use it on our phones.

Who's fault is that?

Of all the things to pull NPHET up on, the Irish Covid App has to be the most bizzare.

1. Ireland had one of the highest percentage uptakes of people using the app at 25% . Granted, 500k users have deleted the app since, but this would have to be compared against the norm of other apps.
2. Ireland was early in releasing the app compared to other countries.
3. Ireland open-sourced the app to ease privacy concerns, and to share it with the rest of the world.
4. The BBC reported that there was very little evidence that similar apps rolled out in other countries worked, but that there was for the Irish app
5. New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Gibraltar saw the success of the Irish Covid App and are now using a version of ours as their own.

6. More importantly, NPHET didnt develop the app. It was the government, HSE and a company from Wexford called NearForm. Stop complaining about NPHET in this thread because the app does not work on your phone. Christ.

Donald Trump

McHardcore wrote: »

6. More importantly, NPHET didnt develop the app. It was the government, HSE and a company from Wexford called NearForm. Stop complaining about NPHET in this thread because the app does not working on your phone. Christ.

Hold on there now a minute. Do you not think that Tony Holohan should resign because he didn't ring me personally in order to find out that I only have a Nokia 3310 and then go and subsequently port or rewrite the code so that it could run on it?


Sure a fella down the road from me bought a yoke of Aliexpress as well with some mad Chinese OS on it. Tony apparently never even thought of him! 20 years in Mountjoy sounds about right!

and then Mary up the road dropped her phone a few months ago and broke the screen so badly that she can't even read things on it properly now. She can't even see the app! Off with his head!

karlitob

Donald Trump wrote: »

Hold on there now a minute. Do you not think that Tony Holohan should resign because he didn't ring me personally in order to find out that I only have a Nokia 3310 and then go and subsequently port or rewrite the code so that it could run on it?


Sure a fella down the road from me bought a yoke of Aliexpress as well with some mad Chinese OS on it. Tony apparently never even thought of him! 20 years in Mountjoy sounds about right!

and then Mary up the road dropped her phone a few months ago and broke the screen so badly that she can't even read things on it properly now. She can't even see the app! Off with his head!

Yeah, typical HSE.

thebaz

All these leaks , and the constant threat of more severe lockdown , has me seriously wondering on the competence of NPHET - put the country to level 4 nationwide if needs be , but contantly threatening to jump up to level 5 , creates even more fear in an already over anxious Ireland.
- what is going to happen in 6 weeks ? - the virus will magically dissapear and we can all enjoy a normal Christmas ?
It is a virus that we need to live with, not live in a constant state of over-anxiety - get people / the nation to abide by the rules that are in place would help .

karlitob

thebaz wrote: »

All these leaks , and the constant threat of more severe lockdown , has me seriously wondering on the competence of NPHET - put the country to level 4 nationwide if needs be , but contantly threatening to jump up to level 5 , creates even more fear in an already over anxious Ireland.
- what is going to happen in 6 weeks ? - the virus will magically dissapear and we can all enjoy a normal Christmas ?
It is a virus that we need to live with, not live in a constant state of over-anxiety - get people / the nation to abide by the rules that are in place would help .

These are not threats or leaks.

They advise. They’ve already advised a level 5. Level 3 is not working. Numbers are more concerning. Readvise level 5.

You almost sound surprised that as to what the advice is.

Governments decide.

Nphet are a function of government and do what they have been asked to do.

Whether we should move to the emergency coordinator group as recommended by eoghan Murphy in the Irish times last week is perhaps a good idea to discuss.

bb1234567

Zebra3 wrote: »

We had a major lockdown and the virus didn't go away.

Things started to reopen and the numbers rose again. Inevitable.

Not every lives a life of happy families in a semi d.

There are house shares all over the country with people working in their jobs.

People, not robots.

Somebody works in a petrol station can pick up the virus through no fault of their own.

They go back to the three bed they share with eight other people and they all pick it up through no fault of their own. And off they go to work. And so on, it spreads again.

But our government and NPHET have no idea how the other half lives. They have six figure salaries and if their kids are off in college (or working) they sure as hell ain't living like that.

So policy is driven to achieve the impossible.

In the meantime, just keep blaming the plebs and destroying the economy.

Over 200k people in Hong Kong live in bunk beds' coffin beds' in room shares, and they stopped the spread entirely. I'm not saying it's feasible or easily done and may differ by culture, but it's not impossible

Nobotty

bb1234567 wrote: »

Over 200k people in Hong Kong live in bunk beds' coffin beds' in room shares, and they stopped the spread entirely. I'm not saying it's feasible or easily done and may differ by culture, but it's not impossible

Thats it though I don't think you can compare the mentality and efficiency of the Hong kongers with the Irish

Zebra3

McHardcore wrote: »

Of all the things to pull NPHET up on, the Irish Covid App has to be the most bizzare.

1. Ireland had one of the highest percentage uptakes of people using the app at 25% . Granted, 500k users have deleted the app since, but this would have to be compared against the norm of other apps.
2. Ireland was early in releasing the app compared to other countries.
3. Ireland open-sourced the app to ease privacy concerns, and to share it with the rest of the world.
4. The BBC reported that there was very little evidence that similar apps rolled out in other countries worked, but that there was for the Irish app
5. New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Gibraltar saw the success of the Irish Covid App and are now using a version of ours as their own.

6. More importantly, NPHET didnt develop the app. It was the government, HSE and a company from Wexford called NearForm. Stop complaining about NPHET in this thread because the app does not work on your phone. Christ.

Why are you going off on this rant at me? :rolleyes:

Where did I blame NPHET?

bladespin

karlitob wrote: »

These are not threats or leaks.

They advise. They’ve already advised a level 5. Level 3 is not working. Numbers are more concerning. Readvise level 5.

You almost sound surprised that as to what the advice is.

Governments decide.

Nphet are a function of government and do what they have been asked to do.

Whether we should move to the emergency coordinator group as recommended by eoghan Murphy in the Irish times last week is perhaps a good idea to discuss.

If that’s the case (as it should be) then why are we hearing it from them instead of the government? Surely the advice should be fed through the government and not direct releases like this?

McHardcore

Zebra3 wrote: »

Why are you going off on this rant at me? :rolleyes:

Are you happy with the Irish Covid App?