Have NPHET lost the attention of people?

Zebra3

McHardcore wrote: »

Are you happy with the Irish Covid App?

You ignored my other question.

McHardcore

Zebra3 wrote: »

You ignored my other question.

Do you know the topic of the thread that you are posting in?

uli84

karlitob wrote: »

Stop being silly. The government does decide. Like all governments. Who do you think should advise government on health policy? Do you think the chief medical officer role should stop and not advise any minister on any health related issues.

They are running a circus, not advising, i am observing how it is done elsewhere and it’s nothing like in Ireland

Silentcorner

Well where ever you stand on this vital issue that is affecting us all to varying degrees, you have to admit this is ham fisted!!!

Constant threats, ridiculous mandates, constant fear and anxiety being pumped into the population which will have long lasting adverse effects for years to come on many people young and old....not to mention the negative impact on cancer suffers, people with mental health issues etc.

In a Pandemic you'd expect your well paid leaders, both politicians and health officials, to attempt to communicate in a calm and reassuring manner and consistent manner, we instead have the opposite....this isn't good enough, there is too much at stake.

Never forget the role media have had in all of this. Do yourself a favour and switch off for good!!!

karlitob

bladespin wrote: »

If that’s the case (as it should be) then why are we hearing it from them instead of the government? Surely the advice should be fed through the government and not direct releases like this?

It is. A letter is sent directly to the minister. Donnelly is Holohan’s. He rings him beforehand with what the general thrust is, rings him after and sends a letter. This has been the way from day 1 and this has been clearly identified from last weeks debacle.

Holohan then holds a press conference on the data, what recommendations were made and answer any technical queries to journalists. Sure why would the minister or government allow their employee to set up a media station in their own building unless this was approved by government. Holohan didn’t put up the table and chairs himself and tell the minister to F off for the last 9-10 months. The minister hasn’t just realised that Holohan informs the country daily.


There’s a (near) daily media briefing from an Assistant Sec Gen to give an overall government position also.

You’ll also remember the uproar that no minutes were available immediately after every meeting. Or their decision making process. All up on line immediately.

You can’t win.

karlitob

Silentcorner wrote: »

Well where ever you stand on this vital issue that is affecting us all to varying degrees, you have to admit this is ham fisted!!!

Constant threats, ridiculous mandates, constant fear and anxiety being pumped into the population which will have long lasting adverse effects for years to come on many people young and old....not to mention the negative impact on cancer suffers, people with mental health issues etc.

In a Pandemic you'd expect your well paid leaders, both politicians and health officials, to attempt to communicate in a calm and reassuring manner and consistent manner, we instead have the opposite....this isn't good enough, there is too much at stake.

Never forget the role media have had in all of this. Do yourself a favour and switch off for good!!!

No I’d don’t agree it’s ham fisted so cant ‘admit’ to it.

It’s hard to know what response people expect from a government, any government, in what is an unprecedented global pandemic.

The only thing everyone ‘should‘ agree on is that human behaviour transmits the virus, and therefore only human behaviour can affect that transmission - in either a good way or bad way.

karlitob

Silentcorner wrote: »

Constant threats, ridiculous mandates, constant fear and anxiety being pumped into the population which will have long lasting adverse effects for years to come on many people young and old....not to mention the negative impact on cancer suffers, people with mental health issues etc.
!!

It seems somewhat trite to say it but - everyone absolutely everyone - is negatively affected by Covid GLOBALLY.

ellee

Well I would agree the daily NPHET briefings have overall been unhelpful. What is it achieving? Even the daily obsessing over the numbers is mad. We all know you have to wait to see a trend. Differences from one day to the next, may or may not be meaningful, but here we are parsing them every day on the news and all day on the radio. Honestly if my mother was sick I'd hardly get as many updates.

Also arguably NPHET would have retained far more effectiveness in their messaging, and the mood of the country might not be quite so difficult, if they had not done those daily briefings.

I would also say there is clearly a raging need for an emergency committee with a much broad remit and expertise base and access to a huge fund to do the necessary. NPHET would report to them, they report to govt.

I appreciate putting in all the measures necessary to keep this under control is expensive. Even vastly expensive. But it is also clear that shutting the country is literally THE most expensive way of managing this crisis and whatever you have to say, there's no denying we are back at square 1 so quite a lot has gone wrong somewhere.

Hellrazer

thebaz wrote: »

All these leaks , and the constant threat of more severe lockdown , has me seriously wondering on the competence of NPHET - put the country to level 4 nationwide if needs be , but contantly threatening to jump up to level 5 , creates even more fear in an already over anxious Ireland.

They don't even need to go that far. Level 3 if left long enough will work.
Case numbers mean nothing when testing isn't being carried out correctly and some people including NPHET are even more obsessed with them.

- what is going to happen in 6 weeks ? - the virus will magically dissapear and we can all enjoy a normal Christmas ?
It is a virus that we need to live with, not live in a constant state of over-anxiety - get people / the nation to abide by the rules that are in place would help .

Whats going to happen is they lock us down for 6 weeks,the case numbers drop and the r number goes back to 1 or below--yay well done NPHET--Take a bow!!!

Then they stick us on level 1 or 2 again the first week of December.
Shoppers will go absolutely nuts in the run up to Christmas and then we get another spike in numbers ..this time blamed on the retail trade. They`ll lock the retail trade down JUST BEFORE January and the sales rush and we`ll be back to level 5 the first week after the new year.
Round and round we go.

They haven't a breeze what they are at. Its just laughable at this stage.

bladespin

karlitob wrote: »

It is. A letter is sent directly to the minister. Donnelly is Holohan’s. He rings him beforehand with what the general thrust is, rings him after and sends a letter. This has been the way from day 1 and this has been clearly identified from last weeks debacle.

Holohan then holds a press conference on the data, what recommendations were made and answer any technical queries to journalists. Sure why would the minister or government allow their employee to set up a media station in their own building unless this was approved by government. Holohan didn’t put up the table and chairs himself and tell the minister to F off for the last 9-10 months. The minister hasn’t just realised that Holohan informs the country daily.


There’s a (near) daily media briefing from an Assistant Sec Gen to give an overall government position also.

You’ll also remember the uproar that no minutes were available immediately after every meeting. Or their decision making process. All up on line immediately.

You can’t win.

They’re not playing a game to win.

I understand how it works just question why they announced the advice ahead of the minister, that’s all, the mechanics are sound it’s the timing that I’m wondering about.

thebaz

Hellrazer wrote: »

They don't even need to go that far. Level 3 if left long enough will work.
Case numbers mean nothing when testing isn't being carried out correctly and some people including NPHET are even more obsessed with them.

I'm a moderate , and would take a level 4, but this contant threat of going to level 5, is doing no one any good, so many people out ther today frustrated angry and over anxiious , would have expected a more balanced approach from NPHET, but since Superman Tony has come back its constant Fear, he is on a secure pensionable salary, comfortable financially, I'm not -
and what did they expect was going to happen when they opened schools and ramped up testing - of course you are going to get more cases , it is a highly contagious virus, thankfully though not as fatal as we believed last March , but this gets completly over-looked at the dailly 6 o'clock daly virus count news alert by the Fear driven powers that be at NPHET thats seam to be running the country now.

Zebra3

McHardcore wrote: »

Do you know the topic of the thread that you are posting in?

Yes.

Why are you so afraid to answer my question?

Humilde

Silentcorner wrote: »

Well where ever you stand on this vital issue that is affecting us all to varying degrees, you have to admit this is ham fisted!!!

Constant threats, ridiculous mandates, constant fear and anxiety being pumped into the population which will have long lasting adverse effects for years to come on many people young and old....not to mention the negative impact on cancer suffers, people with mental health issues etc.

In a Pandemic you'd expect your well paid leaders, both politicians and health officials, to attempt to communicate in a calm and reassuring manner and consistent manner, we instead have the opposite....this isn't good enough, there is too much at stake.

Never forget the role media have had in all of this. Do yourself a favour and switch off for good!!!

Couldn't have put it better myself. So much energy, money, jobs and lives are being wasted. Lets see when these eejits will finally realise that they cant beat this with stupid lockdowns and mask wearing. Just bloody well protect the vulnerable and let this thing run its course to herd immunity.
The headline tonight is that we have 30 people in ICU "related to coronavirus". Whats the bets that a fair percentage of these are in ICU for something completely different but have tested positive for COVID. And by the way, what we aren't being told is that this PCR test is notoriously dodgy in terms of false positives. The UK have now asked their health service to start reviewing thousands of positive tests (weak positives) as they think that they are wrong. Looks like people who may have had the virus months ago are still testing positive. What a joke!!
Id say this much, imagine if we were faced with a real catastrophe. These politicians (most of them from all the parties) have really been found out in the last few months. The place is crying out for a real leader with balls.

karlitob

Humilde wrote: »

Couldn't have put it better myself. So much energy, money, jobs and lives are being wasted. Lets see when these eejits will finally realise that they cant beat this with stupid lockdowns and mask wearing. Just bloody well protect the vulnerable and let this thing run its course to herd immunity.
The headline tonight is that we have 30 people in ICU "related to coronavirus". Whats the bets that a fair percentage of these are in ICU for something completely different but have tested positive for COVID. And by the way, what we aren't being told is that this PCR test is notoriously dodgy in terms of false positives. The UK have now asked their health service to start reviewing thousands of positive tests (weak positives) as they think that they are wrong. Looks like people who may have had the virus months ago are still testing positive. What a joke!!
Id say this much, imagine if we were faced with a real catastrophe. These politicians (most of them from all the parties) have really been found out in the last few months. The place is crying out for a real leader with balls.

I’d say 0.

You’re confusing the misunderstood narrative of dying with rather than of Covid with admission to ICU with Covid.

ICU is a critical care service that focussed on maintaining a patients vitals through highly regulated systems monitoring. Covid is a highly infectious respiratory disease that can cause significant respiratory, circulatory and vascular problems.

Being admitted to icu and just so happening to have Covid night occur, for example, if someone was admitted after a horrific road traffic collision and just so happened to have asymptomatic or mild Covid.

Otherwise, they’re admitted with significant Symptomatic issues that require management.

People with respiratory, circulatory and vascular disease are admitted everyday in icu and a lot of patients have many underlying conditions. ICU - very simply - treats symptoms and not conditions. So in effect it doesn’t really matter what you have - as long as that condition can cause or otherwise exacerbate your vitals signs - then you’re going in.

It’s also important to realise that treating a patient with Covid is far more burdensome than the standard icu patient (if there is such a thing) due to the infectiousness of the disease and the PPE burden.

kippy

Humilde wrote: »

Couldn't have put it better myself. So much energy, money, jobs and lives are being wasted. Lets see when these eejits will finally realise that they cant beat this with stupid lockdowns and mask wearing. Just bloody well protect the vulnerable and let this thing run its course to herd immunity.
The headline tonight is that we have 30 people in ICU "related to coronavirus". Whats the bets that a fair percentage of these are in ICU for something completely different but have tested positive for COVID. And by the way, what we aren't being told is that this PCR test is notoriously dodgy in terms of false positives. The UK have now asked their health service to start reviewing thousands of positive tests (weak positives) as they think that they are wrong. Looks like people who may have had the virus months ago are still testing positive. What a joke!!
Id say this much, imagine if we were faced with a real catastrophe. These politicians (most of them from all the parties) have really been found out in the last few months. The place is crying out for a real leader with balls.

A trump or a Johnson? Or someone else?

Humilde

kippy wrote: »

A trump or a Johnson? Or someone else?

You are joking I suppose. A real leader unifies and brings the people with them through sensible government and calm, calculated decision making. I don't think your suggestions fit this job spec.
The most recent I could think of is probably Obama.

Humilde

karlitob wrote: »

I’d say 0.

You’re confusing the misunderstood narrative of dying with rather than of Covid with admission to ICU with Covid.

ICU is a critical care service that focussed on maintaining a patients vitals through highly regulated systems monitoring. Covid is a highly infectious respiratory disease that can cause significant respiratory, circulatory and vascular problems.

Being admitted to icu and just so happening to have Covid night occur, for example, if someone was admitted after a horrific road traffic collision and just so happened to have asymptomatic or mild Covid.

Otherwise, they’re admitted with significant Symptomatic issues that require management.

People with respiratory, circulatory and vascular disease are admitted everyday in icu and a lot of patients have many underlying conditions. ICU - very simply - treats symptoms and not conditions. So in effect it doesn’t really matter what you have - as long as that condition can cause or otherwise exacerbate your vitals signs - then you’re going in.

It’s also important to realise that treating a patient with Covid is far more burdensome than the standard icu patient (if there is such a thing) due to the infectiousness of the disease and the PPE burden.

I stand corrected, but if the authorities want to inflate the death figures by lumping those who die "of" and those who die "with" all into the same basket, then I think we should also suspect they could do likewise with hospitalisations and ICU. I am in no doubt whatsoever that this virus can be a terrible thing for some people, but that doesn't excuse the massaging of figures by governments trying to make their handling of the situation look better. In fact, its disrespectful to those who have suffered and died with this, that authorities seem more interested in optics and their own image than actually dealing correctly with the dangers.

dubdaymo

Humilde wrote: »

I stand corrected, but if the authorities want to inflate the death figures by lumping those who die "of" and those who die "with" all into the same basket, then I think we should also suspect they could do likewise with hospitalisations and ICU. I am in no doubt whatsoever that this virus can be a terrible thing for some people, but that doesn't excuse the massaging of figures by governments trying to make their handling of the situation look better. In fact, its disrespectful to those who have suffered and died with this, that authorities seem more interested in optics and their own image than actually dealing correctly with the dangers.

It's NPHET who are massaging the figures to suit their single-minded agenda.

Once again today they have gone down the devious road and leaked. Varadkar promised us last time that this wouldn't happen again but NPHET has gone ahead anyway.

If anyone can organise a Go-Fund me to take a class action suit against Mr. Holohan and NPHET for consistent Mental Abuse of the Irish people I'll contribute no problem.

karlitob

Humilde wrote: »

I stand corrected, but if the authorities want to inflate the death figures by lumping those who die "of" and those who die "with" all into the same basket, then I think we should also suspect they could do likewise with hospitalisations and ICU. I am in no doubt whatsoever that this virus can be a terrible thing for some people, but that doesn't excuse the massaging of figures by governments trying to make their handling of the situation look better. In fact, its disrespectful to those who have suffered and died with this, that authorities seem more interested in optics and their own image than actually dealing correctly with the dangers.

They don’t lump them in - you did. The breakdown of figures include confirmed, probable and possible.

A COVID-19 death is defined for surveillance purposes as a death resulting from a clinically compatible illness in a probable or confirmed COVID-19 case, unless there is a clear alternative cause of death that cannot be related to COVID disease (e.g., trauma). There should be no period of complete recovery between the illness and death. Ireland follows EDCD and WHO guidelines of defining death from Covid - see below. I don’t expect you to know them - why would you. You, I’m sure would accept, do not have an opinion on this that’s worth listening to. I don’t care that you *think* there’s ‘massaging of figures. It’s all available, it’s all against international standardisation, it’s all based on decades of coding. I don’t care what you think about it.

A death due to COVID-19 may not be attributed to another disease (e.g. cancer) and should be counted independently of pre-existing conditions that are suspected of triggering a severe course of COVID-19.

Humilde

karlitob wrote: »

They don’t lump them in - you did. The breakdown of figures include confirmed, probable and possible.

A COVID-19 death is defined for surveillance purposes as a death resulting from a clinically compatible illness in a probable or confirmed COVID-19 case, unless there is a clear alternative cause of death that cannot be related to COVID disease (e.g., trauma). There should be no period of complete recovery between the illness and death. Ireland follows EDCD and WHO guidelines of defining death from Covid - see below. I don’t expect you to know them - why would you. You, I’m sure would accept, do not have an opinion on this that’s worth listening to. I don’t care that you *think* there’s ‘massaging of figures. It’s all available, it’s all against international standardisation, it’s all based on decades of coding. I don’t care what you think about it.

A death due to COVID-19 may not be attributed to another disease (e.g. cancer) and should be counted independently of pre-existing conditions that are suspected of triggering a severe course of COVID-19.

For your information, the Government (I include that HSE and NPHET in this) have already admitted that they include deaths "with" Covid in the oficial figures. This was admitted to the chair of the Oireachtas Covid committee, Michael McNamara. So I think your imagined authority on this is not as complete as you would like us all to think. And, like so many others on your side of this argument, when faced with logical arguments which go against your own, you resort to trying to offend and shout down your detractors. Well, my friend, that's where your veil is lifted and we can all see your true colours. I don't need to resort to these childish antics.

Humilde

karlitob wrote: »

No I’d don’t agree it’s ham fisted so cant ‘admit’ to it.

It’s hard to know what response people expect from a government, any government, in what is an unprecedented global pandemic.

The only thing everyone ‘should‘ agree on is that human behaviour transmits the virus, and therefore only human behaviour can affect that transmission - in either a good way or bad way.

An unprecedented global pandemic? Ah here we go again!! This thing has been here now since March. We now know way more about it than then. We know that lockdowns dont work. The WHO is even saying it now. We know we need to protect the elderly and vulnerable. We know of some drugs which can be used to fight the infection, and we know of some vitamins which can help prevent infection or lessen the effects. So this excuse of "its completely new" is old at this stage. Seems as though the government and their NPHET and HSE cronies are the only slow learners here.

karlitob

Humilde wrote: »

For your information, the Government (I include that HSE and NPHET in this) have already admitted that they include deaths "with" Covid in the oficial figures. This was admitted to the chair of the Oireachtas Covid committee, Michael McNamara. So I think your imagined authority on this is not as complete as you would like us all to think. And, like so many others on your side of this argument, when faced with logical arguments which go against your own, you resort to trying to offend and shout down your detractors. Well, my friend, that's where your veil is lifted and we can all see your true colours. I don't need to resort to these childish antics.

I’m not your friend. I don’t care about your opinion. Whether you take offence to that is not my problem. You’ve no more right than I for your opinion to be accepted by me than mine to you. I never claimed authority / that was your inference. I just have evidence rather than unsupported opinion.

You’re factually incorrect.

HPSC collect the data as it’s a notifiable disease. They notify the CMO as they are obliged to by legislation.
Definition of death with respect to Covid is from WHO and coding is updated on our hipe system as per WHO and ICD-10 AM.

All far more factual and verifiable than your conspiracy theories.

Humilde

karlitob wrote: »

I’m not your friend. I don’t care about your opinion. Whether you take offence to that is not my problem. You’ve no more right than I for your opinion to be accepted by me than mine to you. I never claimed authority / that was your inference. I just have evidence rather than unsupported opinion.

You’re factually incorrect.

HPSC collect the data as it’s a notifiable disease. They notify the CMO as they are obliged to by legislation.
Definition of death with respect to Covid is from WHO and coding is updated on our hipe system as per WHO and ICD-10 AM.

All far more factual and verifiable than your conspiracy theories.

Good man yourself. I can see now why you were banned from previous threads.

karlitob

Humilde wrote: »

An unprecedented global pandemic? Ah here we go again!! This thing has been here now since March. We now know way more about it than then. We know that lockdowns dont work. The WHO is even saying it now. We know we need to protect the elderly and vulnerable. We know of some drugs which can be used to fight the infection, and we know of some vitamins which can help prevent infection or lessen the effects. So this excuse of "its completely new" is old at this stage. Seems as though the government and their NPHET and HSE cronies are the only slow learners here.

What’s this ‘we’ business. Did you earn a degree in medicine and have 10 years training in public health medicine since March.

Also - what’s your point. How haven’t ‘we’ learned. It might have failed your sharp notice that infections before from May to Sept was low and countries came out of lockdown. Clearly a combination of a wide variety of interventions ‘worked’ - which all depends on what your original goal was.

Human behaviour is the cause of transmission. Human behaviour Is the only method to change the direction of the transmission.

All that Is needed is agreement on what the nature of the problem is and then an agreement on what the nature of the solution is.

I have not asserted that we should go into lockdown. I know you’re trying to lump me in with some group to suit your narrative.

karlitob

Humilde wrote: »

Good man yourself. I can see now why you were banned from previous threads.

I find it difficult to tolerate idiots. My one flaw.

VeVeX

karlitob wrote: »

I’m not your friend. I don’t care about your opinion. Whether you take offence to that is not my problem. You’ve no more right than I for your opinion to be accepted by me than mine to you. I never claimed authority / that was your inference. I just have evidence rather than unsupported opinion.

You’re factually incorrect.

HPSC collect the data as it’s a notifiable disease. They notify the CMO as they are obliged to by legislation.
Definition of death with respect to Covid is from WHO and coding is updated on our hipe system as per WHO and ICD-10 AM.

All far more factual and verifiable than your conspiracy theories.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZolPvWW8oo

karlitob

VeVeX wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZolPvWW8oo

Yep - thanks for that. Just like I’ve previously posted.

Humilde

karlitob wrote: »

What’s this ‘we’ business. Did you earn a degree in medicine and have 10 years training in public health medicine since March.

Also - what’s your point. How haven’t ‘we’ learned. It might have failed your sharp notice that infections before from May to Sept was low and countries came out of lockdown. Clearly a combination of a wide variety of interventions ‘worked’ - which all depends on what your original goal was.

Human behaviour is the cause of transmission. Human behaviour Is the only method to change the direction of the transmission.

All that Is needed is agreement on what the nature of the problem is and then an agreement on what the nature of the solution is.

I have not asserted that we should go into lockdown. I know you’re trying to lump me in with some group to suit your narrative.

The gift that keeps on giving. So are you saying that because you are a doctor, you must be right and everyone else wrong? I'm sure all of us great unwashed will have met someone similar to you. One of the reasons that so many cockups happen in Irish hospitals if that people have a deference towards medical professionals and take everything they say as gospel, without questioning. Seems to me like you could have done with a few years in the school of common sense.

karlitob

Humilde wrote: »

The gift that keeps on giving. So are you saying that because you are a doctor, you must be right and everyone else wrong? I'm sure all of us great unwashed will have met someone similar to you. One of the reasons that so many cockups happen in Irish hospitals if that people have a deference towards medical professionals and take everything they say as gospel, without questioning. Seems to me like you could have done with a few years in the school of common sense.

You seem to have an inferiority complex. I’m not a doctor. And you don’t have the first idea of why errors happen in healthcare.

karlitob

Humilde wrote: »

The gift that keeps on giving. So are you saying that because you are a doctor, you must be right and everyone else wrong? I'm sure all of us great unwashed will have met someone similar to you. One of the reasons that so many cockups happen in Irish hospitals if that people have a deference towards medical professionals and take everything they say as gospel, without questioning. Seems to me like you could have done with a few years in the school of common sense.

You still haven’t stated what your point is. Spit it out instead of trying to attack me because I won’t accept your opinion.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even be made fun of.